speakers, which is a very different feeling than Tassajara when it's so wet at Tassajara and the creeks are running full blast. You can't hear the lecture in the Zendo very well, so the lecturer has to shout the lecture. good practice, but not so intimate. I want to say how honored I am to be here speaking today in this assembly of teachers and students who have been practicing so long. and alongside of my own practice for so many years.

[01:04]

And I want to say how much I value this assembly. One of the most valuable things about it is just that it's this assembly. And to be able to practice with all my old friends and people I haven't known so well, And for us just to do this kind of ordinary practice together and through some kind of osmosis to integrate with each other in ways that we don't even know about yet. But I think that something about this will produce something for our future. And so today...

[02:12]

My talk is going to be expressing my gratitude to all the Japanese teachers that we've had and who I have studied with personally. When we were studying with Suzuki Roshi, up until 1971, including Suzuki Roshi, we had five Japanese teachers. Suzuki Roshi was always very happy to welcome Japanese teachers to study with us and to help him. So, I think the theme of this talk is how these teachers have transmitted the Dharma to us. and how we are continuing that transmission and what that transmission is.

[03:50]

So, I have three little stories. Two of them are koans of Master U Mon, which characterize, I think, what our transmission is. Master Uman one time told his assembly, said to his assembly, each one of you has your own brilliant light, but when you go to look for it, it's dark and dim. And then he said, what is this light? And nobody could say anything, or nobody said anything.

[04:55]

And he said, for them, the main gate, the Dharma hall, the administration building, and the pantry. another time, he said, hidden within this mountain form is a treasure, a jewel. When you go into the Buddha Hall, you take the little you carry the triple gate on the lamp. That last part is translated in various ways, but I like that one.

[05:58]

And then the third one is a fable from Master Aesop about the farmer and his three sons. There was a farmer in ancient times, and he had three sons, and they had quite a large farm, and the father felt that it was his time, he was getting ready to pass on, and so he wanted to give something to his sons. So he said to his son, he was afraid that maybe the sons would go to the city, would leave the farm and go to the city. which is what farmers like to do when they forget what they have. So he said, I buried a treasure on this land, but I can't remember where it is.

[07:08]

But if you guys look for it, I'm sure you'll find it. And then he died. So the brothers said, well, let's look for it. So they got their spades out, and they started digging. And they dug up the whole thing. Took them a long time. And they didn't find anything. So they said, well, let's try once more. So they dug, and they dug, and they dug. And they got to the end. and I didn't find anything. He said, one more time. So, third time, they dug and they dug and they dug, and I didn't find anything. They said, well, it's springtime, we might just as well plant the field. So they planted the field. And when it was harvest time, it was the most abundant crop that anyone in the area had ever seen.

[08:15]

And they looked at each other and they said, you think this is what the old man meant? So I want to talk about my maybe nine Japanese teachers. Of course, Suzuki Roshi was the first one, and everybody knows about Suzuki Roshi, how plain his practice was, and some of the most characteristic things that I feel are important.

[09:19]

One was that he never saw himself as apart from us. He always treated everyone as himself, actually. I felt that he always looked for that radiant light in each person. And he was always interested in that treasure that each person embodies. That's why everyone loved him so much. And he said, when our practice is neither Japanese nor American, then we'll have our true practice. So, although he introduced Japanese practice to us, the practice that he knew, he never asked us to be Japanese.

[10:32]

He was always trying to bring out the quality, the inherent quality of our own culture. And he said, when you are you completely and thoroughly, then Zen is Zen. He didn't say, when you are like me, or when you are like somebody else. He said, when you are completely you. So we always felt this great trust. And it was very easy to put ourselves in his hands. Because there was no difference between himself and us. There was no gap. That's one thing. Our second teacher was Katagiri Roshi.

[11:47]

In those days, we called Suzuki Roshi, Reverend Suzuki. This is 1964, when I started to practice. Suzuki Roshi was Reverend Suzuki, and Katagiri Roshi came in the same year I did, maybe a little before me. And we called him Katagiri Sensei. And he had already been a priest for almost 20 years, I think, and had Dharma transmission from his teacher, but came to America because he had met people when he was at Eheji and he took them around and showed them guests. So he was very curious about bringing practice to America. And so when he'd heard about Suzuki Roshi, he came to Los Angeles first and then came to help Suzuki Roshi.

[12:56]

And he wasn't exactly Suzuki Roshi's student, but he acted as Suzuki Roshi's student. And I remember that Suzuki Roshi would always be the Doshi and Katagiri Roshi was the Doan and the Kokyo and the Fukudo. He did all those things. And it was like how the student and the teacher relate to each other. So for years no one did the service except Katagiri and Suzuki Roshi. And we could watch how a student and a teacher relate to each other. So Kadagiri Roshi put himself in that position, and Suzuki Roshi took the other position, and they exposed themselves in this way for our benefit.

[14:00]

Kata Giriroshi had a very difficult time in the beginning with his English. I remember his first lecture at Zen Center was completely unintelligible, but it was wonderful and we were also happy to support his effort. So there was this mutual effort going on. Our effort to support them in their effort to support us. And in the process, the Dharma was in full swing. And sometimes we don't realize how difficult it is for someone from Japan to transplant themselves in this country. When Suzuki Roshi went to Tassajara, And we were all eating brown rice.

[15:20]

Some of us feel that it's the brown rice that really ended his life sooner than he wanted it to end. We had the macrobiotics, the mucous-less dieters, five or six different things going on at that time. And over many, many years we developed a monastic eating style. monastic diet that would fit a lot of different kinds of people who were in a place for a long period of time and had no access to any other way of eating. So little by little we refined that, but the teachers had to go through it with us. And I think that it was very hard on some of these people. some of our Japanese teachers to adapt to American style and American food. And sometimes they got very sick.

[16:29]

But sometimes we don't realize a lot of the sacrifice that these teachers went through for us. And actually leaving, Suzuki Roshi left Japan and became an American citizen. So, as well as being Japanese, he considered himself as an American. And why didn't people understand that actually he was an American? So, Suzuki Roshi was like the father great father figure for us. And Katagiri Roshi was, as Katagiri Sensei then, was like the mother side. He was always interacting with us and helping us, worrying about us, and do we have enough soup, you know, that kind of thing.

[17:35]

And so between the two of them, They were like our parents, and they brought us up. And I studied with them for seven years, and then Katagiri Roshi, people invited him to Monterey and then eventually to Minnesota. I think he had a very harder time than Suzuki Roshi in adapting. There was something, I feel, in Gaudagiri Roshi that never quite gave up. It was so hard for him. And his effort to do it was tremendous. And I don't know what it was exactly. The third teacher was Tatsagami Roshi, who was the Ino at Eheji for ten years, and who Suzuki Roshi and Baker Roshi invited to come and set up the monastic practice at Tassajara.

[19:06]

We got Tassajara in 1967 and we did a couple of practice periods. and we kind of invented it, invented the style with Suzuki Roshi and Katagiri Roshi, but Suzuki Roshi felt that it would really be nice to have somebody who really knew monastic life inside and out to set up our monastic practice. At that time we had a lot of people at Tassajara. But a lot of people felt that Tassajara was a commune. They wanted to live at Tassajara as a commune. And at that time, in the early 60s, in the late 60s, there were a lot of communes in California. And Zen Center arose alongside of those communal aspirations of people.

[20:09]

So a lot of people drifted into Zen Center and feeling, this is a great commune, you know, it has some structure, which most of the communes didn't. But deciding to ask Tatsagami Roshi to come, and when he finally did come, separated the communists from the Zen students. And there was a lot of controversy about that. Tatsugami Roshi was great, you know, he had his faults, but in some way he just breezed in. And since he couldn't speak English, he wasn't bothered by a lot of things. And it was interesting, because we had very few people who could speak any Japanese. I remember Dan Welch tried to translate a little bit, and Katagiri Roshi did. Katagiri Roshi didn't like him very much. because he felt like Tatsagami was trying to take over Tassajara, which he probably was.

[21:12]

But he had been a sumo wrestler at one time, and he was pretty portly, and he would reduce and then gain weight. He said, when I'm really heavy, the fat in my thighs flaps against each other when I walk. And he had elephant eyes. Aliens are just like elephants. But we all enjoyed him very much because he set up the Doan Ryo, he set up the kitchen practice, he taught us how to chant, the whole works. And over a period of a couple of years he did this. But I was the Shuso, 1970, when he first arrived. And he couldn't speak English and I couldn't speak Japanese, but he would speak to me and I'd understand what he said. I didn't understand all the subtleties of what he said, you know, but there's something about it, about just saying what he had to say, and I could read his attitude or something.

[22:26]

And it wasn't always accurate, but pretty much I knew what he was saying. Then I realized later, well, I didn't understand a word he said, but I knew what to do. And so we had that kind of communication. And when he was in Japan, he used to drink a lot. But when he came to Tassajara, he vowed that he wouldn't drink. And he didn't. It was amazing. But he smoked. And a lot of people smoked at that time. I was a great smoker, and so in the mornings we'd sit around in Choson, in his cabin, and it was very intimate. I mean, he'd smoke, and the place was filled with smoke. And he had this wonderful little pipe, like what we call an opium pipe, with a little teeny bowl, and he had this wonderful shredded tobacco which he'd put in it, and then he'd light

[23:30]

the tobacco with a coal from his hibachi. And it was just like a two or three puff thing, you know. But it was real style, he had this wonderful style. And so we'd sit around and have these wonderful intimate talks. You know, it provoked this intimacy. Which, of course, he was speaking Japanese. But there was some kind of intimacy that was working there, you know. that was just wonderful. And the way he taught the Doans to chant, he said, I'm going to walk around during the day. And he would hold sessions with them, but informally he would walk around. And if you wanted to chant with him, you'd just walk up to him and say, let's practice. And you'd chant with him. mimic him at the same time, and he would bring you through the process.

[24:36]

It was really wonderful. He had a tremendous voice and a tremendous style of chanting. He made a tape one time of this very elaborate ceremony. I don't know what it was. Nobody knew what it was. But it just brought tears to my eyes, the way it was so beautiful. And it disappeared very quickly, the tape. But he had that ability to chant, like that deep voice. His voice was very deep and resonant, but always accessible. You could always find the pitch that he was... It was always a comfortable pitch that he was chanting on. So he really taught us a lot. So I have a lot of admiration for him, even though he was trying to take over. A lot of people didn't like him. They felt that he was in competition with Suzuki Roshi. But I enjoyed very much having him. And our practice, what we do, is based on his teaching.

[25:39]

And we've lost a lot of what he taught us, actually, through the years. Every time someone is an Eno, they always modify everything through their own style, and pretty soon the original style gets lost. And every once in a while I try real hard to bring it back, but I don't have time to do it. And everybody says, well, what's that? What are you trying to do? So it's kind of hard. So then we had Chino Sensei. Actually, Chino Sensei came before Tatsugami. Chino Sensei came in 1967, and he was a young man who someone had known at Eheji, and the Los Altos community asked him to come and be their teacher.

[26:48]

But on the way, Suzuki Roshi grabbed him and said, why don't you stay at Zen Center for a little while first? So he became one of our teachers as well. And each one of these teachers presented some different side of practice to us, some different characteristics. Each one has a different personality, and each one had something different to offer. Chino Sensei was his whole ... he's still alive ... his whole character is poetic, you know, soft and poetic and deep, so deep, you know, that the way he would speak was so slow and so deep, almost hard to stay with it. He was kind of a victim in a way when he first came here, a victim of aggressive women.

[27:55]

Usually we talk about aggressive men, right? There are aggressive women who do the same thing to men as men do to women. And it's very difficult for him. But he presented a side He was trained at Eheji to do the most elaborate kind of ceremonies. My understanding is certain priests are singled out to learn these things. And so he had this training and when he came here I think he was expected to do something but actually he dropped it, he dropped all of his learning and eventually wouldn't teach anybody anything. And I remember going to sashins with him where nobody knew how to do anything.

[29:06]

The servers didn't know how to serve, the people that did the service didn't know what to do, and he didn't say a word. He just wanted everybody to figure it out for themselves. I remember going to the sashim and the serving would just take hours and hours, you'd be sitting there with a meal. And finally I just got up one day and took over being a soku, and getting everything right, and getting everybody to move. But then I realized, this was my trip, my expectation. And he was doing something which none of us who like our form would dare to do, because we're trying to get everybody to do the form, and he was trying to get everybody to forget the form. Kind of wonderful, you know? So, what he was most interested in was actually being a bodhisattva and loving the students, you know, and always being the advocate for the underdog, and taking the most difficult students and making them his friends.

[30:36]

the students that we say, go away, you know, come back some other time, he would take them in. And he didn't try to make students out of them, he'd just be with them. So, a very radical kind of different way, but very deep. In some way he reminds me of Ryokan. So, nobody knows what he's doing, but we all know that he's doing something wonderful. And I think he has an attitude that eventually everything will turn out the way it's supposed to. If not in this lifetime, in the next lifetime. So we tend to think we want to get everything done in this lifetime, but he doesn't care about that, because he knows that if you don't get it done in this lifetime, it'll get done in the next lifetime.

[31:50]

No rush. So that's one kind of wonderful attitude, and it helps to balance things out, you know. And then, there was Yoshimura. who stayed with us for about a year, and he died when he went back to Japan suddenly. He was a young man. So at one time we had Yoshimura, Shino, and Kanegiri Roshi and Suzuki Roshi, and Tatsugami, all at the same time. And Yoshimura was more like an observer, you know, but there was something very sweet about his nature, and he was always very encouraging, never critical about anything, never heard him criticize anything, but just the sweetness of his nature, which is not so much what he said, but just his manner and his way of being

[33:06]

I remember him saying, Sato Zen practice is the practice of lowering your sleeves and folding them back. This is the practice of a Zen monk, is taking your long sleeves and opening them up and folding them back. So, those were the teachers that we practiced with, with Suzuki Roshi. And each one of them contributed something to our practice. Each one of them was a facet of this jewel. And after Suzuki Roshi died, As you know, he gave a Dharma transmission to Richard Baker as his only transmitted heir, and he had started to give a transmission to Bill, to Jaksho, and couldn't complete it, and he had asked Hoitsu to complete Jaksho's transmission.

[34:25]

And he was very frustrated. because he and Bekaroshi didn't get along very well, and eventually Huitsu, who was Suzuki Roshi's son, completed the Dharma transmission, but he thought it was going to be Suzuki Roshi's Dharma transmission An old man, an expert on dharma transmission, who assisted Hoitsu in the dharma transmission, said, you can't give a dead man's dharma transmission to somebody. It has to be a live person. So the dharma transmission was Hoitsu's dharma transmission. And at first, Jaksa was very disappointed that it wasn't Suzuki Roshi's dharma transmission.

[35:31]

But we didn't know who Hoitsu was. We just thought, well this is Suzuki Roshi's son and he inherited his temple and he's just an ordinary temple priest. But little by little we began to find out that Hoitsu wasn't just an ordinary temple priest, but a very deep and profound person who sometimes acts like a monkey. When we first started getting together with Hoitsu, I remember him coming over and he would act like a monkey. He would jump around and pretend he was a monkey. And then he'd walk on the ground and pretend he was a frog. And he'd go through all these animal acts and we'd just break up. you know, because he was so good at it. I thought, this guy should be on the stage.

[36:35]

You know, he was giving us something, you know. He thought, you know, these Americans, you know, he didn't know really who we were, just like most Japanese don't know who we are. And he had some resentments against his father. His father had left early to go to America, and kind of abandoned him in a way, and left him there with the temple. And he had to find his own way, which he did. And he became a very independent person. A lot like Suzuki Roshi, actually, only different temperament, a little different temperament. And, he showed himself completely to us. And, little by little, we began to be impressed with how intelligent he was, is, and how much he actually knows, and how formal he can be, as well as informal.

[37:55]

as well as being a great comedian, he can be a deep, profound teacher. And that was a great surprise to us and a kind of wonderful gift. Later, you know, Suzuki Roshi, we all felt that Suzuki Roshi had expected Richard Baker to give Dharma transmission to his students, finish to complete things, and he never did. So at one point I started to... was going to work with me on Dharma transmission, and we actually started doing that.

[39:00]

And then Richard Baker, later, asked me to do Dharma transmission. And that was really difficult for me, because I felt, this is what he should be doing. He should have done this some time ago, not waited for me to start working with Chino But I had to, I said, this is the way it's supposed to be. This is what should happen. So I had to disengage myself from Chino Sensei and start working with Richard. And then after the crisis, I was still working with him. And at one point he felt that I wasn't supporting him. in this crisis. I wasn't supporting him or not supporting him. I was just being truthful to myself.

[40:05]

And I was still going along with him. But then he said, since I don't feel you're supporting me enough, so I don't think we should continue this. And I said, okay. And then later, Huitzu agreed to complete the Dharma transmission. So, 1984, I had Dharma transmission with him in Japan, but still he didn't quite know who we were. And you can't do Dharma transmission with somebody just because you say you're going to do it. there has to be some real connection. You can't just go through the ceremony. It has to be real. So I went to Japan, and in one month, we had to make it real. And that one month was getting to know each other intimately.

[41:14]

And just before dharma transmission, I felt we didn't really have it down completely. And so one night, Dzogchen was with me, and Eckhai was with me, and one night we really had it out, you know, what he felt about us, what he felt about his father, what he felt about the whole thing, and then I explained to him what I felt about the whole thing. And we came to an understanding that was very deep and very real, and I felt at that point what we're doing was real, and then we went ahead with it. So, I do feel that Hui Tzu is my Dharma teacher, and that I'm his Dharma heir. But he will say, even though I did this, it's Suzuki Roshi's Dharma transmission between you and me. And if you think he felt that way about all of us, Jacques Cho, myself, and Kato-san,

[42:21]

the three people that he did dharma transmission with. So then, there is my seventh teacher is Kaz Tanahashi. who's not a priest or even necessarily a Buddhist practitioner. His father was a Shinto, is a well-known Shinto priest in Japan, and he was expected to follow in his footsteps. And his tradition comes from, his family has a long tradition, Shinto priests. And when he was in Japan, he happened to translate some Dogen into modern Japanese.

[43:30]

And he was very impressed with Dogen. So when he came to the United States, he did the first translation of Genjo Koan with Eiken Roshi a long time ago, in 1865 or something like that. And then he was impressed with Suzuki Roshi and was at Zen Center for a while. And then later he came back in the 80s. I don't know exactly when or how long we've been studying with him, but we set up a translating bureau. As you know, a lot of the students a handful of students were doing translation with Kaas. And he worked with us. He always worked with us as an equal. He never said, I know how to read this stuff and you don't.

[44:36]

It was never like that. He presented the side of translation and we presented the side of our practice and experience and understanding. And together, this kind of relationship kept growing and evolving. And I think that our translations are not the best. There is no best. There's no translation that's it. But with the spirit of continuing to translate and continuing to evolve our ability to translate Dogon, he's just given himself unceasingly. even though he's been very busy in his life, and we're still doing translation with him. And one of the things that I like about the way we translate is that we put it into ... the translation always gets expressed from our side rather than from the Japanese side.

[45:47]

There are many good many Japanese translators who understand the English language and can translate, but it never sounds like we understand what we're reading, what we're saying. So I think he's a kind of pioneer in that, in putting it into our own language. putting the translation into our own language, and I feel that's been an invaluable contribution. And my Sumi Roshi has also been another teacher of mine, although indirectly, but I've known him over a long period of time. And more and more, I learn from him.

[46:52]

And one of the things that I'm impressed with is the quality of his students. You can tell a good teacher by the quality of their students. And I think that he's done a wonderful service in producing really good students and trusting his students. trusting his student even though they're not doing what he's doing. And trusting that even though they're not doing what he's doing, that they're doing something that he trusts will work, will come out all right. So I give him a lot of credit for that. It's hard to do. And then there's Mrs. Suzuki. After Suzuki Roshi died, Mrs. Suzuki stayed at Zen Center, we invited her to stay, and she developed, it was very difficult for her at first to be alone with us, not in Japan, with her friends, and to stay there with us.

[48:12]

And a certain kind of sacrifice and fortitude, willingness to just stick it out. I think some of the things that stand out for me is her independence and her straightforwardness, saying what's on her mind. being really direct, and I heard great sense of humor through it all. Really, it's great teaching for us. And keeping something about Suzuki Roshi alive, even though we tend to keep it alive, her presence has kept it alive in a way that is immeasurable.

[49:22]

And now she's back in Japan, so we kind of miss that. And then, so her great spirit, you know, is gone now, but it's still there, along with Suzuki Roshi's spirit. Then, the last one is Ekai Korematsu, who originally came to me as a student. He was going to college in Berkeley, and he showed up at the door one day. with his friends, and they wanted to know about Zen. So I gave him Zazen instruction, and his friends never came back, but he did. And he studied with me for a while, and then he wandered around and met up with Chino Sensei, who ordained him.

[50:26]

Then eventually he went back to Japan, but he always I always had this relationship with him, and in some way, even though he was my student, he's also been a wonderful teacher for me. There's something about his humility, which really people love, and his willingness to help people. A real bodhisattva attitude. And now, of course, he's been studying Japan and is becoming more and more Japanese, which I don't like so much. I think it would be very good if he came back here, or at least went back and forth freely, you know, so that he wouldn't get stuck in one place or the other. Because I think he could develop that way. I just hope he doesn't get stuck, but I think he's a little stuck.

[51:34]

Anyway, I do hope that that happens. I wanted to express my gratitude to these Japanese teachers. So after 1970, 71, when Suzuki Roshi died, our official Japanese teachers, we didn't have any more. We went out on our own. Beiko Roshi became the abbot. and formed Zen Center in a way that's still with us in a lot of ways. And since 1971, we've been developing practice on our own.

[52:42]

And I think that a lot of the people, new students who haven't had the same kind of exposure and training that we had, they wonder about our style. They say, well, how come we do things in this style? Because they don't have the direct teaching or the direct contact that we had. The style seems secondhand, maybe. And so that makes it a little difficult sometimes. I feel that we kind of defend or uphold the style that we learned. And I think a lot of the newer students would like to see it more American style, more modified. And even in Suzuki Roshi's time, people wanted to see it more modified.

[53:48]

And Suzuki Roshi would say, you're very egotistical. You know, you want everything to be on your own terms, on your own turf, on your own, doing things your own way. He said, but you should learn how to do something a certain way, even if you don't feel you like it. I always felt that the form we have, although enlightenment is not in the form, yet the form helps us. The form has always been You know, a way to find our conduct. It makes practice visible. Because of the form, we can walk into the Zen Do, and we say, oh, this is the form of Zen practice, and we know what to do. And then when you walk out the door, it's just anybody's form.

[54:52]

just the form of the world, and that's where you have to find your real practice, how to make practice, how to make the forms of the world into practice. So it's just the other side of the coin. And if we only have one side of the coin, then it's very hard to see what practice is. I don't know how it will be in the future. It will change, little by little. But we don't have to try and make it change. Change will become inevitable. And to keep our eyes open and to know when to change, when the change is imminent. So I think we're always working with this tension. the tension of how to preserve something, at the same time, how to let it change, so that we don't just throw something out, thinking that we're progressing.

[56:06]

So in some sense, what at one time, maybe 20 years ago, was pioneer practice, now with the rise of popular Buddhism, we're becoming a little anachronistic in our formal practice, I feel, for the general Buddhist populace. We're kind of old-fashioned, because popular Buddhism in America is just rising out of the ground and becoming very strong, and there are a lot of teachers around, and where they come from and what their background is, is kind of doubtful. And what their experience is and their age is a little scary. And so there's something good about it, but it's also kind of, can be a kind of a problem.

[57:15]

And so I see it as a kind of, you know, we're like, our practice is kind of like the trees in the creek and then the rise of popular Buddhism is like a torrent or a water that's rushing down the creek and how the trees will be able to stand there and weather that and how they will be able to become part of that is something that I think we have to deal with. And if we're too resistant, we'll topple over. And if we're too lax, we'll just get washed away. So how to make it work, I think is what we're looking at. At least that's what I'm looking at. How to make it work so that it will benefit everybody.

[58:22]

and how Japanese practice and American practice will be in the future. That's looking the other way. I've always felt this way, ever since I started practicing, that our Japanese teachers came to America and we received them. And I've always felt like I'm a receiver on this shore, and that shore and this shore have kind of bonded. And then there are the students who proceed from our practice. And although I feel very strongly about expanding our practice, social action and environment, ecology, all those things that popular Buddhism is very interested in. I think I have to be an advocate for our formal practice.

[59:41]

The image I get is like the gold rush, you know, where all these people sailed their ships over to San Francisco and then the crew all left and went to the gold fields, you know, and the ships just kind of rotted there. As a matter of fact, some of the buildings are still built on the hulks of the ship. But I really feel that it's important to preserve our formal practice. and not get too caught up in the gold rush, the Buddhist gold rush. But at the same time, knowing how to participate in it and not being left out and doing it in a way that harmonizes and keeps things on track.

[60:47]

So looking at the Japanese side, I really welcome teachers and more and more facets of this jewel that has been coming to us for the past 30 years, 40 years. I would like us to be able to have more Japanese teachers and to go back and forth and eliminate, as Suzuki Roshi says, Japanese practice and American practice and just have practice, just to be able to find the treasure in everyone. It's the same treasure in everyone. It's the same light in each person. That's what our transmission is, and that's what we look for in each other.

[61:52]

And if we let our other things stand in the way, we'll miss it. So, do you have any questions? I would like to, at this point, stop talking. Yeah, Catherine? Well, by popular Buddhism, People read about Buddhism now and a lot of people feel that they're Buddhists. Sometimes people come and they'll say, can you marry us?

[62:56]

Do you practice? No, we don't practice anything, but we've read about Zen and we feel that Zen is something that we feel that we have an affinity with. Or Buddhism is something we have an affinity with. So there are a lot of people who don't have any contact with practice but they feel some affinity with Buddhism and they feel they're Buddhists. people who are, I would say, unaffiliated Buddhists, a lot of people who are unaffiliated, not affiliated with any practice or any teaching group or, you know, and they have a kind of, there's a kind of affiliation between the unaffiliated people and they feel that their form of practice or their form of Buddhism is enough and they see us as

[64:02]

being kind of foreign, you know, and monastic, and you know, there's a whole, do you understand what I mean? Yeah, what I'm describing. And I'm not saying that's wrong or bad, you know, I'm just saying that's there. And people who are saying, well, You know, we don't have to do those formal practices in order to be a Buddhist. That's what I'm getting at. To be what? Yes. But that is more popular.

[65:10]

I think the Vipassana movement is more popular because it's not so formal. As a matter of fact, I don't want to talk about it, actually, what that is. But for a lot of people, it's not even Buddhist. But I do feel that there is a large, growing group of people who are Buddhist, but they don't practice. There's not a defined practice for them, and they don't want a defined practice.

[66:13]

And I think that that population is much larger than the practicing population. That's what I'm saying. So it would become very easy for a lot of people to just feel that it's not necessary to do the practice. Yes, well that's part of what I'm talking about.

[67:22]

So how do we preserve our own practice and at the same time be able to harmonize with other people, not just be exclusive? That's kind of the tension I think that we're working with. Yes. A little bit. Not so much. I think they were teachers.

[68:25]

That's a good example. Those were very good. Those ladies, those two teachers, two nuns, were our teachers. And I should have mentioned them because they were both they brought the dharma of sewing to a Zen center. And Shunpo-san regards them very highly as her teachers, and as transmitting the sewing of the robe to her. And my first robe of the Nyoho-e style was made by Joshin-san. And I think it was the first robe that was made at Zen Center. And so I owe her a deep debt of gratitude, both of those teachers.

[69:27]

Yes. During an earlier visit, And I remember being very impressed by an article written by Ananda Lovin about Suzuki Yoshi's practice, and that half of it was devoting self away. I find too that people come to me that are not able to sit. Older people, people with arthritis, a person with Cerebral Palsy wishes to take a precept. I cannot sit like you did, but my heart wants to go as much as it is possible in my lifetime in the Buddha way according to your tradition.

[70:43]

And if there is any way that I can do that, I will do so. I don't know quite how we can form it. The only example that I had was the period where I was ill for half a month, I stayed with cura sethita. And I have to go to my head to them to show me that there is another way, a practice that does not depend upon sansen. There's a certain phrase I forget. Is it, Madison Hiroshi, do you know that phrase? It's kishumonpo? of the United States ministers. And people listened with such ardor, such San Shimonpo was Tatsugami Roshi's practice.

[74:05]

That's what he used to emphasize, San Shimonpo. And I feel that we do put a lot of emphasis on zazen, you know. That's where our emphasis goes, but we should, and sometimes we do neglect the other side Yeah, that's right. So I think we have to be very careful and not get attached to our certain style, which we tend to easily do. I've had this woman who comes to Zendo and Berkeley who was in an accident when she was young and is in a wheelchair. It's just having her in our midst, you know, really wakes us up to that whole thing. And, you know, every time I give a, when I give a talk and I talk about posture, and she's sitting there in her wheelchair, you know, and I say, you really work on your posture.

[75:08]

And she's looking at me, you know, and she's like this, you know. Yeah, that's her straight. That's exactly right. That's her straight. And so, you know, and having that to deal with really, I have to really think about what it is that's universal, right? That's a good point. So it's easy for us to fall into the wisdom side and forget the compassion side, because compassion is how wisdom is expressed. And if we don't express it that way, we just get stuck in our stinky Zen wisdom.

[75:46]

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