So, good evening, everybody. Thank you for coming. And, excuse me, this is allergies. It's a little dry throat. So, I listened to several of Sojin's talks about the genjo kong, because that's the chapter we're talking about. And he said, well, I guess it's time to give my annual genjo kong. So, this is kind of our semi-annual, because if you were in aspects, we did the whole fascicle. But in Soji's book, it's the first four sentences that Soji wrote about. Last week, or a couple weeks ago, Ryu Shin talked about life and death, and so now we're going to talk about the middle part. or actually birth, birth and death. And now this is what happens in between.

[01:01]

So this Gencho Koan is probably Dogen's most pivotal work. And he used it in a lot, most other of his fascicles, as well as other ancestors. You'll see different references. It's so pivotal. And as Sojin said, it lays out practice, how we practice, what is practice. And it's really the touchstone, as I say, for Dogon's works. I don't know how old he was when he wrote it. Anyway, he wrote 95 fascicles, I'm going to say 96, but 95 fascicles. And many of them reference the Genjo Koa.

[02:04]

Dogen's philosophy, according to Sojin, is that we approach everything as bodhisattva practice. Bodhisattva practice. Sojin covers the first four sentences or sections, and everybody has a different interpretation of those sentences. But we're just gonna, I'm gonna just stick with Sojin's, what he calls them. And because these first four sentences, this is the crux of the Genjo Koan, and what that are examples of those first four sentences. and how to practice. So the rest is commentary and examples from these four sentences. So before we go into the four sentences, I just wanted to review of Genjo Koan.

[03:10]

So what I found, Genjo, that means to manifest in the present. That's really important, in the present. or to actualize. Sometimes we hear actualize the fundamental point. It's being here moment after moment, the here and now. And I heard another phrase which I like very much, the way of everyday life. This is the way of everyday life. And Koan, and this is for Sojin, because everybody has different takes. If you want to know more, not Uchiyama. No, who's Uchiyama's student? He really goes into the difference in how he sees it. So if you want to hear, see his, that's a good book too. It's his Genjo Koan book.

[04:14]

So for Sojin, Dogen, under Koan, took this fundamental Koan to mean how our life is extended. And on, so ko, so the on part is zazen, and ko is the activity, the activity of zazen. So zazen leads and guides our everyday activity. So how do we find in everyday activity? our place in the universe, moment after moment. I kind of reversed it and thought, well, it could also say Zazen is the activity of our life, coming back to our breath, moment after moment. So, Ganjo Koan, for me right now, because of course this is one of those things that can change, but I think of it as, where is my life right now?

[05:19]

Where do I stand? And what is important at this? And what am I seeing and not seeing clearly? Looking at that reality. And what am I deluded about? What stories am I telling myself? So at any moment, if I'm in an upset, that's a good time to look. What is this story? What is causing this upset? So it really includes every activity because every activity is every moment. And the meaning is different for everyone. No one meaning. And we're here to really discover what it is for you. And as I say, it can change. And it doesn't mean you don't have goals. You know, we have goals, like, let's say, wanting to go to medical school or something.

[06:23]

But that goal, what the everyday activity is, colon, everyday choosing what's important right now, school or going out or whatever it is. So we still have a full life of goals and our expression of life. It's just such a live koan. It's just very alive. So, we're going to talk about the four sentences. So the first three are looking at ways to look at reality. So the first, when at the time, well it says when, but as Sojun says, what that when means, at the time, at the time when you recognize this, all dharmas, and that's a small d, are buddha dharma with a big d. There's enlightenment and delusion, practice, birth and death, buddhas and creatures.

[07:32]

So let me stop here and just talk a little bit about small dharma and big dharma. So small dharma That includes everything, all the forms, like a table, chair, just as it is. I'm not looking anything then, this table is made of wood, period. This is the form of this table. And including not just forms, things, it's also our skandhas, like what are our emotions, our feelings, our physical senses, perceptions, consciousness. And everything and everyone has a place in the universe. There's a place for everything. And I don't think that anything is ever out of place. Even in chaos, it has its right place. That's small d. And the big d, you probably know this, is Buddha Dharma, the teachings. But it's also the cosmic law and order as well as Buddha's teachings.

[08:43]

And this law of reality, there's always cause and effect. We hear a lot about cause and effect, right? It's interesting. My grandchildren are about, you know, these people are getting really angry and throwing their bats. You know, baseball, professional baseballs. And one got the game forever. I said, yeah, well, that's an effect for them. Yes, but forever? Yeah. Yeah, you did something, you know, you've got to control that anger. So that was kind of shocking, you're young. But at any rate, the very strict law, the laws, you know, these laws that we live by, like think about the law of gravity. You don't get to compromise with gravity. So, back to the first sentence. This is when, or at the time when you recognize this, all dharmas are Buddha Dharma.

[09:57]

There are enlightenment and delusion, practice, birth and death, Buddhas and creatures. So this is the reality of form. We call it, other words that we call it is the relative, duality. Those are some common words we use in Buddhism. And We know that everything is part of the absolute. Nothing is . In this world, this probably was, if you were more affected by this before practice, I'm thinking I was, we see the phenomenal world.

[10:59]

We see more things like book, yeah, book, paper, table, wood. It is connected. that everything is separate. And we're just seeing dharmas as dharmas, small d. And we see ourselves as separate. So everything is as it appears. And we don't see any connection with anything else. and the separate self or the ego is in charge and we are making things happen. It's all just don't operate on that other realm. We're in the world of form and we have to be in the world of form some of the time because we have to.

[12:01]

We have to get things done. We have to take care of ourselves, our family, our work. So it's important, the world to form. So, but we also, in this world, we have distorted ideas. You know, our minds are limited. We're just seeing the form. It's our willpower and effort to get things done. And it requires a lot of effort. So, In that respect, we are carrying out our distorted ideas, full of delusion. We live in that world of illusion. We're coming from that self-centered place. We're operating as a separate self. You know, we create these dharmas through our sense fields.

[13:03]

Sights, sounds, smells, tastes. That's how we create our dharmas, through seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. Very important. We need those. But life is seen really more through our ideas and our points of view, our beliefs, values, perceptions, what we were taught. That's kind of the world of form. Now in the second reality, as Sojin says, this is the second sentence, and when the charmas are without self, there is no delusion, no enlightenment, no buddhas, no creatures, and no birth and death. So this is the reality of absolute, the absolute reality or, you know,

[14:06]

or emptiness, form and emptiness, this is the emptiness, the non-duals, non-duality side. And everything's connected, everything, and we're connected with everything. There's no thing separate. You know, we don't live in this realm all the time, we can't, we have to come back take care of our lives. But we touch into it, and particularly touch into it during Zazen. And that's what we're developing, really. So that world is strictly that. Well, we don't really live in that world. We don't really live in the form world, either. So where do we live? Well, in this third sentence, It says, the Buddha way transcends being and non-being.

[15:12]

Therefore, there are birth and death, delusion and enlightenment, creatures and Buddhists. So now it has everything. So it's the combination. The combination of absolute. Duality, non-duality. Form and emptiness. This is this state. And I think, you know, it's really the Heart Sutra. Form is empty, emptiness is formed. I think now with practice, this is the world we're living in. Of course, the more you practice, you could kind of, you could go in and out of those realities more quickly, more easily. from one to the other, experiencing this in Zazen.

[16:26]

Yeah. And even though we're still diluted, we're still self-centered, we now at least recognize it in this. Before we didn't really recognize it, but now we know, oh, so diluted. And that's when we can recognize our our delusions, what we're telling ourselves. So, in that respect, we can kind of loosen up our grip and control of our life. You know, let things hold a little more naturally. And we do all of these things, I think, as we practice more, that grip gets less and less. And, you know, we have probably more insight, too, into what baggage we're carrying forward. What are our burdens?

[17:31]

What is extra? So our vision starts to really, in clarity, starts to widen. We're able to include more. Even our delusions. And this happens really, excuse me, I've got allergies, before our dualistic thinking takes place, before we start to discriminate, before we pick and choose this or that, good or bad, you and me. It's like that moment of zazen and sometimes maybe when you just enter zazen with that breath, there's no thoughts. You're not judging, you're just letting go. And that's the place to really just practice that state of being.

[18:35]

You know, I think we all have our places. Nature is a good place too, I'd say, to experience that oneness. You know, just... being with an animal, you know, someone or your child that you love, just stopping and really being with them. I'm sure there's many, many examples that you have. And sometimes in this world too, it's not like everything's perfect. We still forget our precepts. We still You know, forget being generous and kind. We slip into our ego. Driven. But then, hopefully we wake up. That's what Buddha means, to wake up. To awaken. And when we're awake, we just carry out our life through the path of Buddha.

[19:42]

We don't need to even know that we're Buddha. We're carrying out our life force. our Genjo Koan. You know, during Zazen, you might experience what Banke's teaching. I think Alan mentioned that once. He talks about the unborn, and that's before thought. When you sit down, you're empty. My teacher used to say, when she woke up immediately upon waking in the morning, she'd experienced that. I think she practiced it too, where the mind is just empty and just trying to stay in that realm before all the thoughts come in. Oh, I've got to do whatever else, the judgments, to just take that moment and experience that free moment. So, let me just say something about the priest.

[20:46]

So there's really no end to enlightenment. I think that's such good news. We're never, we're never, it is. Our wisdom will just go on forever and ever and ever, and we're just going to continue to grow the more we practice. Oh, here it is. And then the precepts just become our life, you know, as we continue on this path. They become part of us, they're in us, we just know within ourselves what's the right thing to do, what's the ethical thing to do, what's the right thing to say or not say. Practice those precepts, it's just kind of like an automatic thing. We might make mistakes, but I think we can more quickly see, oops, would have been better to do this. But they really help guide us on our path. And you know, we also begin to really care, care about everyone and the planet.

[21:56]

And just, you know, then we are able to take better care of ourselves. Whereas if you're not these sorts of things, it's much more easy to fall into the world of delusion. Delusions are big. So, how do we see these two realms? Zazen is the gate. Gotta always end with that, right? Okay, so now the fourth sentence. Nevertheless, flowers fall with our attachment and weeds spring up with our aversion. Here we go. This is our life. Everything was going along so well. But here we are, either grasping or turning away. It does sum up our life.

[23:00]

Elle and I had a big talk. It happened every moment. Every moment. Are we always doing that? I think Sophie did say that somewhere. But I think there's big moments and little moments. So I want to read this one section. On page 255, it's at the bottom. This is the Genjo Koan of art. Genjo Koan is the koan that keeps up continuously, comes up, I'm sorry, that comes up continuously, moment by moment, with grasping and aversion. So every moment, we have to make a choice. Do I go this way, or do I go that way? Choose this or do I choose that? Do I like this or do I like that? Do I not like this or do I not like that? So like and dislike are coming up continuously and we are choosing one thing over another.

[24:06]

Like and dislike. Wanting and not wanting. Well, you know, this is just the nature of being a human. It is just the way it is. You could start examining as you go through your day. There might not necessarily be big likes or big dislikes, but there's always probably a little undercurrent there. If you had to choose, oh, okay, then there is a way to say it. So, you know, included in this, of course, is our disappointments. our sadness. And when we lose things and people that we're attached to, when we don't get our way, we try to turn away from things. So this is just a place where we're always having to study what is going on in this realm.

[25:14]

What is my genzo koan right now? What am I choosing? You're not choosing. So now, do you have any questions? And then if you don't, we have some prompts for you. Let's see, Jim, you want to just see if anything, if anyone does? Does anybody online have a question? I see no hands raised. It was pretty boring. What is, like, y'all are splitting it up. What's Ellen talking about? Is there a clean division or are you just kind of deer on tape? It's a clean division. It's a clean division. What's going on there? How can I save questions for here or there? So my idea, or our idea was that the last line is so much more in the real world than the other three. The one about the flowers and the, you know, that sort of, and I feel like

[26:19]

something that's so generous and sort of grandmotherly about, you know, trying to explain the relationship. Three very philosophical lines. And the last one, which is just the nitty-gritty, you know, pretty much our whole life. So that's my part. The nitty-gritty. The nitty-gritty. Well, now we practice with it. Because we have so many tools in the toolbox. Can you discuss the use of, I don't know if this is different in different translations, but the use of the word nevertheless. I'm kind of, I have some curiosity about that, maybe in the context of an emptiness, like does desire and aversion don't exist, so it's maybe nevertheless like a pointer. I'm going to stop you for one second and see if people online can hear.

[27:25]

We have a question. Margo has a question, but I just want to know if people can hear Margo's question. Oh, she's right by the speaker. Yes. Yep, they're nodding. Yes, okay. Sorry. Okay. So go ahead. I think that was it. That's the question. Nevertheless. What does that mean? What is that nevertheless? Sometimes it says therefore. Therefore. Well, I don't know. I think those are not very good nevertheless. And our life includes within these realms, really, this disappointment, turning away and grasping. And I really do see it as nevertheless.

[28:31]

I feel like the first three lines are very comprehensive and a very complete understanding of reality. And even if you completely understand it, And it's really, nevertheless. It's like in spite of that, or even though there's this, there's this. It's like we can't escape our being a human even if we have oneness. Yeah, it's just the nature of being human. But there's ways to deal with that. How do we deal with our immersions and attractions? So I have a question for you. Do you mind if I ask my question? No, go ahead.

[29:32]

This is a question that really came up for me on this, and I just wonder if people... Wait a minute, there was someone online. Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry about this. Oh, is there someone online? Yes. It's Sue. Hi, Carol. It's Sue. Hi, everybody. Sue, can you start again? We couldn't hear you. I said hello. Hi, everybody. And I wonder, Carol, do you feel you're not supposed to have preferences? Feel guilty if you have them? Or when you notice them? I don't think I have a choice. I always have a preference. Right. We have preferences. Sometimes there's other preferences. I didn't know that until the Xin Xin Ming. I asked Arlene. She said, you always have preferences. Yes. Even if we is not difficult with your preferences, but again, we're human.

[30:33]

We have preferences. Exactly. But I find that I hear... people and not so much myself anymore but oh I'm having a preference you know noticing that and it's like I shouldn't do that but we're human exactly what you said that's how we operate so when we recognize a preference let's say I'm really annoyed at the traffic you know and my preference is to get someplace on time yeah so You know, in terms of this particular teaching, the Genjo Khan, how do you hold it? Well, I just want to say something. I don't know if this answers it. But I know what helps me is, I want to say, I have a... So, you know, it's like I'm admitting it. This is my preference, good or bad. This is my preference.

[31:36]

And that kind of even lightens it up a little. I can make room for other preferences, other things, when I own it, rather than drilling down my preference. Want to add anything? I'm going to add a lot. I'm going to add a lot. Does that help, Sue? Well, I think it just opens up a conversation. getting to know ourselves. Like, oh, not, oh, no, I have preferences. It's like, great, I'm recognizing this particular preference, but not dwelling on it. And you sometimes feel it lessens the preference. Yeah, it's not a big deal to have. Yeah, it's like, I've got to have my way.

[32:37]

But if you examine that, well, maybe I don't have to have my wife. Maybe I could open up a little bit. Jim? I feel like a lot of our suffering appears when we, not only do we identify a preference, but we don't accept the reality that maybe things are different. We don't want things, my preference isn't aligning with reality, and so I'm struggling. And when you're stuck in traffic and it's incredibly exasperating, you have to say, I really wish I weren't in traffic, but I'm in traffic. And that's a practice gate. Yeah, it really is. Makes it more pleasant when you can let it go. Margo? I mean, from another perspective, we don't choose thoughts and emotions. just come up and flow through in the same way that the clouds are flying by or the sun rises to grieve about.

[33:45]

It's like I don't have control. They're not even mine. Yeah, I don't know. I think that's a good analogy for me. I'm really interested in that one. Are thoughts and preferences the same? Are our preferences kind of like thoughts? I guess they're going to be an emotional tone. I guess there can be an emotional tone. There can be. But the thoughts that are going by, let's say in Zazette, they're just going by, aren't they? And let you grab onto one. So maybe one will have a charge, an emotion to it. So many thoughts. Thoughts are falling like flowers and giving rise to attachment. He's talking about our thinking.

[34:49]

He's not talking about garden flowers. He's talking about us. So can we look at our thoughts as precious flowers or can we look at them as weeds? And what do we want to cultivate? Let me just, can you hear online? Okay, Sue said yes. When you made that gentle tap on your table there about, that's my opinion or my something, Sojin did that mimicking Suzuki Roshi's teacher. He went like this, and that's my opinion. But he wasn't pushing the opinion, he was just like, this is my opinion, and I'm not attached to it. but you all should know how I feel about it. I don't think we should be careful about expressing our opinion, but just not being attached to our permission. Yeah, got to make sure you're not attached. Yeah, but this seems like there's a forceful voice or whatever, but actually everybody's voice is heard, whether we can hear it or not.

[35:57]

It's hard to hear some people, while other people are boisterous. It's really easy just to kind of that we already know their point of view, right? Like you. Like me, right. I know that so. I feel free to express myself with my Dharma friends here, because we all know each other intimately, whereas out there in the world, so to speak, people don't know us. We have to be more careful how we negotiate our relationships and all that. It's one of the beautiful things about Sangha. We get to know each other and we can be playful. Thank you. Can I ask my question? Yes. So this is my question. I wonder if anybody would opine on the first... what it means when... Is it the Dharma?

[36:58]

Yes. When are the dharmas, Maldi? Buddha Dharma. When the dharmas are Buddha Dharma. What does that mean to you? What does that mean? When the dharmas are Buddha Dharma. Does that mean when you're like in an awakened state of mind such that all phenomena are like experience of oneness? Sort of like the... Second one, Buddha Dharma. You're still seeing things. There's like the relative within the absolute, and the absolute within the relative is the second one. You're seeing things, but you're seeing how all the things are interconnected, while in the second one, you're not seeing things anymore.

[37:59]

Anybody online moving to that one on? Marley. Is that Marley? Is that Marley? Yes. Yes, it is. Thank you. All right. So I'll dive into this one. I feel like there's a trick here. Because like... When all dharmas are recognized as Buddha Dharma? Or is there any time they aren't? I guess that's my question. Is there any time all dharmas aren't Buddha Dharma? Yeah, I do think the first thing is that it resonates more with me when you see them as Buddha Dharma. That resonates a little bit more than that there's actually a time when they aren't. I think they are always Buddha Dharma, but there's a time we begin to see them that way. That's kind of what I think.

[39:02]

Yeah. Right. And I guess what I mean by that is that if there isn't a time when they aren't, right? then it makes me wonder whether that first line applies all the time, even when you don't notice it. Yeah, well, I think it is. It applies, but if you don't notice it, then it doesn't apply to you. It's some kind of attitude, isn't it? I mean, what comes to mind for me is when I'm at Sashin, and if I'm doing Zazen instruction, or I'm cooking, and people come up to me and Here, I'm so sorry you're not able to be doing zazen in zendo. And I hadn't had that experience of wishing that I was in the zendo doing zazen. I was just doing what I was doing, which was quite in and of itself.

[40:08]

So there's that split. Right? That has to do with our attitude towards our activity because it's all the same. But what about this kind of dharma, the table? How does that... Well, again, I think it has to do with how we treat the table. How we sit at a table. Do we put the chair back where it was? Do we take care of our shoes? Do we put our shoes on the shoe rack? Or do we just throw them? So to me, it's just about that part of our attitude. What do you think? I mean, I kind of think all these are work for me. And I think actually what Marla was saying is similar to what you were saying, but I just think it's such an interesting question for me. When all dharmas are Buddha dharma,

[41:10]

What does that really mean? And what does it mean to me? So anyway, I'm leaving you with that. And Ross is shaking his stick. Oh, he's asking a question. Are you going to ask a question? I mean, are you going to answer my question? All dharmas are buddha-yama. Flowers fall, get right to attachment. For now. That's your answer for everyone. We're going to take a break. Why don't we come back? Wait, Helen's going to answer. Something comes to mind, which is, Sojin would say, being an object or something like that. And recently I've been trying to figure out what's the positive of that. Like what is, instead of don't do this, what is the do? And so then, the closest I got is that everything matters. So, what was the first line again?

[42:11]

When all dharmas are buddha dharma. So yeah, maybe that's just what I was thinking about. That reminds me of this spin of everything. Yeah, that was true. Yeah. Treating everything with respect. Terry has his hand up. Do you want to take this before the break or after? Oh yeah, he's had his hand up for a while. What? Do you want to take it? Sure, let's take it. Okay. Sure. Terry? okay can you hear me yes last night i rewrote these four four lines in a way that i felt i could understand them and the first line um what ellen was asking about when all things are subject to cause and effect there is differentiation i don't know if that if people want to pick at that or not.

[43:13]

I don't really want to. I don't really think, I mean, I think all of these things are kind of satisfying to me, and I don't really think I have the answer to the question, and it might be quite individual. Also, the last line, I'm in agreement with Margo. I wrote, still there is No escape. Should I read the other ones or do you want me to skip it? Yeah, read the other ones. Okay. When all things are empty, there is this and that. There is no this and that. No differentiation. And then... Buddha's way goes beyond being and non-being.

[44:16]

So there is differentiation. Good. That's nice, Gary. That's good, Gary. Thank you. The differentiation is kind of like the relative. Right. Yeah, it is. And I didn't want to have to think abstractly. And I guess it is kind of abstract, but not... in a way that I could understand it. Anyway, that's it. Thanks, Gary. Let's... Okay. Five minutes. Okay. Do you ever remember Susan talking about, like, time? I think that was really the whole question. I think Jogen has beautiful things about it, but I kind of just read them without trying to understand.

[45:23]

I think a lot of people are suffering with allergies right now. I've been miserable all week. Oh, is this where you get it? My eyes have been absolutely inflamed. Yeah, from the neck down, I'm great. Did you have a question? I was just going to say, I don't know what you're doing on June. I'm just going to say, I don't know what you're doing on June. [...]

[46:28]

I don't know what you're doing on June. I don't know what you're doing on June. Um, but it was bad in a really, well, it was the worst that it's been, and I think the worst that it will have been. But, um, it's nothing like what I remember from Hong Kong and, like, concrete apartments where, like, it just, and it goes on for weeks and weeks and weeks, and it's just miserable. So this was like, it almost felt like it was next door or like a couple of doors now because it didn't structure or something. It didn't. It was kind of like, the only thing I was sure went about was not being told. She'd not be like, I woke up too. You know, it would have been nice to just have a home. I knew that what was going to happen. It was a Monday morning to start a concert.

[47:35]

Yeah, so that's the only show. And then by lunchtime it stopped. The table's not in there. It looks great. It looks really important. Greg did a good job of removing some of the shelving and making a lot of space. Yeah, it just looks really Usually that's like the hard part.

[48:36]

Is all the planning and trying to get all the quotes from the different contractors, find out what you need. That's the hard part. And once you get started, it's like... Yeah. How's it going? Sounds all right. Have they started it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've taken out the pad. That's good. Yeah. Great. Right here before that probably exists. Not working during sashimi. Who's in that big bundle there? On top. Those are, what do you call it, Zafus in need of repair. So that they don't get used. They look a little nicer to look at.

[49:44]

So, I think mostly what I am going to address is kind of the way that Sojin and I saw him in a lovely way in his talk, very accessible. you know, made an effort to really try to kind of articulate the relationship between the first three lines and the last line. And, of course, this is partly the way I see it, and I see what he's saying. But I'll just read, again, this is sort of reiterating what Carol said. This is a quote from Susan P. Roshi. The secret of all the teachings of Buddhism is how to live, how to obtain absolute freedom moment after moment.

[51:12]

This is the theme of the Genjo Koan. So, we've read the first three and then we've read flowers and weeds spring up with our version. And then right away, Sojin goes into the Four Noble Truths. And we talked about these some at the last class, but I'm going to talk about them a little more just because I kind of like the way that he talked about it in this section of the book. So suffering is the human condition. These are not his translation, but just from the internet. Due to our inordinate craving, Our inordinate desire creates grasping and aversion, like and dislike. The end of suffering is the end of craving. There's a path that leads one away from craving and suffering.

[52:13]

And so Sojin asks, how do we get beyond grasping and aversion in order to be free of desire? And here's the quote. come quite here but this is from the book also. One of the basic aspects of Zen is that we have to have non-attachment to grasping and non-attachment to aversion. But some of this teaching teachers really talk about desire as a hindrance and And some teachers suggest that we should try to get rid of it. And kind of axiomatically, or I'm not sure that's the right word, but when you hear this, you know, that this is the cause of suffering, you kind of think, yeah, let's try to get rid of it.

[53:15]

And, you know, that seems impossible. I mean, we've talked about that last time, It seems very hard to do, but we vow to do a lot of things that are impossible, right? We vow to end all suffering and save all beings. So why not this one? Just think about that for a minute. There's Xin Xin Ming, and if you read that, you would think about this a little bit. And this is a 7th century or 6th century poem by one of our Chinese ancestors. Chant on Tuesday and Thursday mornings, maybe Saturday, naturally, right? Yeah, and... Oh, oh, I thought you meant that .

[54:19]

But it gets referenced a lot, and we talk about it a lot, and Susan and I are going to teach a class on it. It's really part of our inheritance, and the first line of it is, the great way is not difficult for one who has no preferences. With love and hate both absent, everything becomes clear and undistinguished. It says, and somebody brought this up, that, oh, maybe it was Sue, that desire is not good or bad. Desire is just desire. Or if we did, life would be pretty flat, you know, nihilistic or something. of motivator and our vitality and our really our passion which is what i use kind of with hesitation our creativity which i use with less hesitation and um i think we've all had experiences with desire that's kind of unhealthy

[55:46]

at least I have, and we certainly see it in the world around us. And again, not all of these kinds of grasping are necessarily destructive, but they certainly easily grasping, say, for success and for money. Again, desiring money is not necessarily bad, but it can tip into Fame, security, revenge. You could just keep going with that list. And things that seem very wholesome, say dance is an example for me, seems like a good thing for me and a good thing for the world. But I see it, and I've seen it often become obsessive and unhealthy for people. A lot, really.

[56:48]

And I think you could say that about serving others, you know, could become extreme. Even practice, I think, could become extreme and sort of not satisfying or healthy. Can you say a little bit more about that? How practice can be effective? You know, I mean, I've known people who've really damaged their bodies. I mean, not in our practice, but in some practices. And, you know, it's just a big article in the Times about a woman you know, some cult, you know, which she thought it was, you know, it can, it was almost any tip. But Sojin and Buddha and Dogen all taught us to direct our desire towards something that gives us true satisfaction, doesn't harm others, something that overload us or become obsessive, and, you know,

[57:51]

The example that they all use is our practice and freeing ourselves and freeing others. And then at this chapter, he circles back to the first three lines of the Genjo Koan, and he uses an image that he used really often of the ocean and waves, but he uses it in a slightly different way than I heard him use it. Usually, well, he also uses it usually, but he starts with this image, which is that, you know, kind of the, you know, there's the undifferentiated, or the absolute, which is the ocean, and then there's the waves, which are the particular or the relative and that we you know everything comes out of the ocean and the waves come out of the ocean but as humans we start to identify with being a wave and being an individual and being separate and we forget that we're part of the ocean and so kind of that's a metaphor I think for this balance of being part of the ocean but also being

[59:17]

differentiated or separate but not getting sort of stuck in our individuality. So that's the first way he uses it. And then the second way he uses it is the more, he just morphs right into the second way he uses it very frequently, which is his usual image of the waves and the ocean being, you know, the waves being sort of our unborn mind or our Zazen mind and the waves being our thoughts. And, you know, he talks about the waves just being a natural part of the ocean. It's just part of, you know, what we all do. And, you know, we have our mind bubbles. I'm sure you've heard him talk or read him talking about this. He did it all the time. But, you know, Thinking is not a problem if we open the hand of thought and let it go and come back to our zazen, sort of sense of the absolute, or our posture or our breath.

[60:33]

You know, there's nothing wrong with having thoughts. The goal of zazen is when you wander off to come back continuously. It is in this effort that you realize, that your realization lies. And so he says, even though, Dogen said, stop the movement of your mind. And I have often think, very often think about Choco back. That moment when you make the effort to return to your posture and your breath is the potent moment in your practice. It's the vital moment. And, you know, even if you're, you know, daydreaming for half the... If you make that effort, if you come back, and it's in that moment that you kind of, you know, have your realization.

[61:39]

And then... and really directly addresses the flower's fall sentence. And I think people have different takes on this. One of the things that really strikes me about that sentence is what a gentle sentence it is. Light preference leaves and flowers are, you know, as opposed to, I don't know, I don't want to get attacked by a grizzly bear or something really monumental. These are just the subtlest likes and dislikes, which are really what run our lives. This is kind of the kernel of the chapter for me where he really tries to, or I think he pretty successfully connects this sentence to the rest of the Genjo Koan. And he begins by talking about the changes, you know, just in, say, Session, from beginning to the end of the day, how many changes of physical sensation, of emotional states, of feeling states, of mental states, we go through in one period.

[63:08]

To say nothing of a whole day or a whole session. And he begins by talking about all the feelings we have and how we cling to what we like and we, you know, push away what we don't hope to, but we really have very little control over it. It just kind of happens. And, you know, when we kind of object to it or resist it, You know, that's when the suffering is. This is how things are. The way to be comfortable, to have true comfort, is not through trying to control the world around us, but adjust ourselves to open ourselves from the inside. When we open ourselves from the inside, and relative are transcended.

[64:10]

Subject and object are no longer a duality, and we can accept various states of body-mind without being a victim. If we stop saying good feeling and bad feeling, it's much easier. There are no good feelings or bad feelings. There are just feelings. There is no good state of mind or bad state of mind. There is just this So, he's talking about not adding anything. And, you know, back to just this. Coming back to what is the sensation, not the thought. Emotions, physical pain, it's a clear view. We can see clearly what we're adding. It's non-dualistic and it's non-judgmental.

[65:12]

this. Sojin says, in Zazen, but I would say always, if you are open and alert and quick to accept what arises, you still have pain, you have difficulty, but it's different. This pain and difficulty are not the same as suffering. Freedom from suffering doesn't mean to get rid of all pain. And it made me think about a practice recommended for people, not me, but he should've, which was to, you know, practice gratitude toward everything, to really open toward everything. And, you know, I think it's, to me it's really, a practicing of almost pulling myself open and you know not pushing away and of course I mentioned this I think in my last talk the extreme example that comes to my mind is a talk that a teacher named Steve Stuckey did three weeks after he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and he

[66:41]

had a gratitude practice, which he talked about. And he basically said, it's hard to be open. So I'm just going to go back and read what Carol said about genjo koan. Genjo means to manifest in the present, to actualize being present to about the here and now, moment after moment. And then koan is zazen and ko is activity. Zazen leads and guides our everyday activity, finding your way in everyday activity, finding your place in the universe. So I think I'll stop there. I did have a few questions, and you actually sort of brought this up, I think, or maybe it was you, Margo, about whether our desires are always manifested as thoughts.

[67:55]

Who brought that up, Margo? Did you bring that up? Could you have a desire that wasn't a thought? could want a cup of coffee. But would it manifest as a desire without a thought? Or would it only be a sensation? You know, I feel cranky, I feel tired, I feel, you know, but if I let go of the thought and come back to the sensation, then is it a desire or is it just a sensation? So that's one of my questions. I makes it a desire, but if it's there, there is feeling, there is sensation, there is whatever, then that's not a desire.

[69:00]

To me, that feels like an observation of oneself at the moment. That would be, do I put an I in it and make a preference, wanting or just not wanting? I think that's where I've come to too, but you know, it requires kind of coming back to the body a lot. I have a question about what you describe kind of opening up. Sojin's teaching that form and emptiness are transcended when we come from the inside. And I'm wondering what the sensation or feeling or desire was for you to have that expression that was maybe inspired by desire or that naturally just kind of happened? Mostly I feel like that opening up is opening up to what's happening. It's not pushing things away.

[70:03]

You know, my tendency, you know, perhaps all of ours, is to push away what I don't like, and to open up to it is, I feel like... Well, it's interesting, you're saying pushing away, but you're actually covering yourself as you're saying pushing away, which is the opposite. It's seemingly the opposite, but it's actually the cause and condition of... is armoring. Right. It is. Yeah. For me. Anybody else want to... weigh in on that one, or, you know, could be just what somebody... What are your thoughts? I don't know. But I do think... Excretions from the brain. But I think, you know, I mean, I just think it's a really sort of a dance between...

[71:06]

Sensation and desire and thought is one to really add so much to our experience. I could give you an example today. My daughter took her baby on a trip, and the baby had a fever, and the baby was very unhappy. And my daughter was like, I feel so bad. She's having a miserable time. And I'm like, she's just having the time she's having. And you can feel bad about it, but she's not feeling bad about it. She's just, you know, miserable. Yeah, we do add a lot. Let's see the next trip. You talked about earlier in your part about desires and how desires can be destructive. it sounded interesting the way you're describing it was like, at what point does it become destructive?

[72:18]

Does it become destructive with an action or is it still destructive within this realm of thoughts, you know, as another to this relationship between sensation, thought, desire, when does that desire get out of hand, you know? Um, cause it, before tonight I was thinking like, well, if it's just, in your head, if it just comes up, then it just is, right? It just is. And about it, you know, well, I would say from what Sojin is talking about, when you get dragged around by the desire, as opposed to you being the boss. And, but yeah, I'm curious, kind of, once you started talking, like what, maybe in your experience, observations or the examples you were thinking of, where does that, destruction, destructive aspect show up? Well, I actually think, I mean, I'm not sure I'm answering your question.

[73:22]

And, you know, because I've been really thinking about this and I kind of got as far between, you know, but I'm not sure I got as far as when it becomes destructive. But I think it's, you know, personally, it comes back to for yourself when it feels that you feel it. You know, if I become anorexic because I want to be skinny dancer, you know, I feel that. What's the that? What are you feeling? I'm feeling having a little experience with it. Having a little experience with it. You know, you know, like, the effect The effect of those desires getting out of hand. But I think, you know, there's also, you know, having a negative impact on other people. I think there's also, you know, bigger even, having a negative impact on, you know, people.

[74:28]

So I think that's all. Oh, I have one more question. Can I just say something? He doesn't talk about it in this chapter, but he often talked about, he often said, desire is just energy. Yeah, I mean, he said that about anger. Anger is just energy. Like, we bring those words to it, and then those thoughts pop up of what it means. But I think, you know, you said at some point that, and it says it in this chapter, that many teachers... other schools say get rid of desire, but his way of looking at it or our way of looking at it is kind of revolutionary if you think in that way, that it's just energy. And he used to say, like, what's on the other side of that? Like, look at that or ask that question even if we don't know the answer.

[75:31]

So I find that really helpful. What do you mean by the other side? Because I feel like it's almost looking, for me, it's looking at the before or the... Well, you could say that, right. I think that's the same thing. I think what I mean by the other side is that it's not so negative in its description of it. Right, right. Yeah. No, I think so too. I think he really is clear about that. Right. And, you know, when you think about it, you think, you know, this really is the spice of life, you know? Right. Okay, you had your question. Okay, so there is such a thing as a Zen teacher who said, suffering is optional. So, this brings up the question, you brought this up. Did he say that? Who said that?

[76:32]

I can't remember her last name, Taya. She said it when I asked the question. So what is the difference between pain and suffering for you? And I mean, I think it is. I mean, I sort of think it is suffering, but it's a lot to take that in. And, you know, I mean, again, it's something to think about. you read about Sojin's teaching of freedom and the interpretation of Genjo Koan. I infer from that that we always have a choice. There's a freedom moment by moment to make a choice. And depending on the choice, this way or that way, which may lead to more suffering or less suffering. But we don't know that until we make that choice.

[77:34]

But what kind of choice are you talking about? Whatever. Are we talking about an action? A choice to continue thinking about something, a choice to say something or not, or in our body. So our tangled karma born from body, speech, and mind, I now fully avow, which is making a choice to avow or intention to avow before creating karma. I will stop thinking that. No, I will not say that. No, I will not do that. We always have a choice, even though we feel really compelled if we're angry, to just like give it to them straight up. But for you. Yeah. When you make a choice, do you have a choice not to suffer? You. There is a choice.

[78:35]

I'm responsible. this person is responsible, and I cannot blame anybody else. I can't blame the schedule, the timekeeper, anything. The experience of not suffering in the midst of suffering. And it was like, oh, this is what they've been talking about. It's not that suffering or pain goes away, but it's not that thing. It's a different relationship. parent and a child. There's all this stuff going on, but there's so much love there that you accept that expression of discontent with the child, that you have the maturity, but your daughter isn't quite there yet to just fully accept that it's just what's going on. I think accept is a good word. It's about accepting all the frustration and rage and the sensation and that much.

[79:36]

Marley has her hand up. Marley has her hand up on the screen. Go Marley. I think it was somebody brought up the confession words, you know, the actions of body, speech and mind. Is that a question? Or did we just elude you? Oh, I think she's no longer on to. Where did she go? Jeremiah, did you have a question? Or a comment? I was just going to say something about your relationship to whatever's happening. Speak up. You got to speak it out. I was just going to make a comment about pain and suffering and your relationship to what's happening, you know, causing your distress, your suffering.

[80:45]

Yeah, that's okay. Come on, make it. I'm okay. Can I say something? Yeah. I think we do always have that moment where we can choose, but I would also say it takes a lot of practice to know that we can choose and You know, we're all a bunch of neurotics walking around, right? And our practice is trying to kind of sift through the neuroticism to get to the point where we can say, oh, I'm not going to choose to dwell on that or to relive that or to pick at that. It's not easy. Yeah. Jeff has his hand up. Okay, Jeff. In all this talk about how we hold suffering, one of the things I think I'm hearing, and pardon me if I'm misstating, I don't want to stick my fingers into the pile of poo.

[81:51]

I'm constantly waking up from the dream. It's the same thing in Zazen. I wander off, I wake up from the dream, and I return to breath. Okay. There's a technique in this to alleviating suffering. And for me, it has to do with returning to breath as the fundamental to be able to hold it and to not hold it. Hold it in a space that allows it to be without having a judgment about it, without breathing through it and breathing into it. It's not about holding it tighter and going through the layers and going deeper to find it. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. When I'm with a close friend who's had a terrible day, I don't stick with a terrible day to find the goodness or to find the relief. I say, let's go make dinner. It's the same thing when I'm breathing.

[82:57]

And I realize I'm knee-deep in suffering, and I say, stop. Breathe. And then do something. It doesn't change the suffering. It doesn't change the circumstance. It doesn't take me into the middle of the problem for resolution and relief. That's not where resolution and relief is for me. It's a great discussion, and thank you so much. And I'll say this, too. One of my favorite parts about the Genjo Koan, and maybe you'll... is this idea that myriad dharma rush forth and self arises in response. I don't rush into my life. My life rushes forward and self arises and passes away in each moment. The same thing in suffering. Self has arisen and is suffering in the moment. I breathe. I let it pass. That's the practice for me. Thank you. Thank you, Jeff.

[83:59]

Thank you. Shall we stop? I have a quick question. Oh, yeah, go. Speak up. Sojin mentioned suffering, but in those lines that he quotes from the Genja Koan, it doesn't say suffering at all. And I haven't read extensively in Dogan, but I actually don't see him addressing suffering explicitly. Is that true? And why do you think that is? It's not like he's talking about flowers fall with our attachment and we spring up with our aversion. There's kind of talking about it, but the word suffering doesn't seem to show up. And it's just interesting. Yeah, that is interesting. Does it ever show up, Ross? You've read a lot of those. I don't remember seeing the word suffering. Soji's interpretation, first level of truth, that life is nirvana. It doesn't sound like suffering. So it seems to be open to... Interpretation seems too light, but it isn't... Don't you think they often reference it in the second noble truth to get rid of our suffering?

[85:18]

There's a cause... Well, the second noble truth, yeah, there's a cause to that discontent, and by the same token, there's a cause... Life is nirvana, too. OK, I think we should end. Thank you all. I'm on it. Thank you very much. Thank you. And one more class. Beings are numberless. I vow to awaken with them. Doubtions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. are boundless i vow to enter them buddha's way is unsurpassable i vow to become it

[86:15]

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