and there's 21 people in the room. I'm not counting you, because you're not in this room, but 22 on the screen. So we're late to getting started, but I do want to do at least some kind of an offering. So I will enter. This is an appropriate opening.

[01:03]

Do we usually do the chant? I think normally, but it's your class. You're giving me too many permissions. Whatever you want to do. And I'm surpassed, penetrating, and perfect dharma. to, to remember and accept. I vow to taste the truth of the Tephagata's words. Well, the beginning of this evening is very closely connected to the subject. Formal versus informal. What's the right way? What is the way to do it?

[02:04]

And what do you do when you change, what do you do when you change locations? And what do you do if you don't know if you're going to show up? Or which computer to use? So all of the things that we usually do in the Zendel, which we're all programmed to do, we're not doing. And so we're doing a different form. And in this form. And we... are all wanting to be harmonious and all wanting to be supportive and all wanting to care for the practice. And so here we are in whatever form that takes. And hopefully this form will be as aging as it usually is. So my chapter or section is called Engaging Formal Practice.

[03:08]

An interesting one for me, I have to say, given my history with forms. I wanted to start by reading some of the stanzas in the poem that Sojin has at the beginning of this section. Someone asked me, What is the practice of a Zen student? I said, like water. Water always seeks the lowest place. It goes with gravity. It takes the shape of whatever boundaries it meets. Sometimes up or an ocean, the sweat on your hands, the snot in your nose, clouds, raindrops, lifeblood, constantly flowing in and out of your body.

[04:10]

With plumbing. Strong pipes with tight joints. Water is truth. Plumbing must be honest. Water can't be fooled. Water makes everything truthful. That is its pure activity. Sometimes it appears as slime or poison or tears. It is purified by coursing through rocks and boulders. So when I read that I thought water like mind. Mind is also expansive. What we call mind We call a lot of things mind. Mind can take many forms. Mind can have many moves. Mind can be tight. Mind can be open, closed.

[05:14]

Mind can be activated. So our practice then is the plumbing and the structure so that mind is, we experience mind formal practice. And that practice is quite different in different situations. So Sojin starts talking about form by talking about a lot of people feel that form, the Zen form, is formal and rigid. And and that we cut off all our emotions. And Sojin says, formal, rigid, not really. In fact, if we think about it, there are rules, he says.

[06:23]

There are rules, directives, guidelines, procedures for every activity, like the plumbing refers to in the poem. a safe container to be with the awareness of whatever shows up. We get to see and know our hindrances, gradually lessening their power to unsettle us and ultimately being at peace with them. And I thought about that also in terms of water, if you kind of very quickly through a pipe, you know, it kind of causes a lot of ripples and waves. And then as it just sits there, it calms itself. So it's similar to the way that our minds work. So then Sojin talks about the forms within the zendo, but also he talks about

[07:31]

As we practice, we also recognize forms and use forms outside the formal practice of Zaza. For example, you know, when we come in and we tell new students they have to leave their shoes outside, not step on the platform in the Zendo porch without their shoes. Here's where they put their shoes. You know, here's where they, here's how they enter. They have to use their foot closest to the side support of the door. Bow, take a few steps in, bow to the altar. These are all, this is all a form. And we have forms for, we have all kinds of forms for various things that we do. And forms, our purpose of the forms is also to keep the water calm and the mind calm.

[08:39]

Because if we have these forms, and if we all are moving together without a lot of disturbance, without a lot of coming and going, some people going in one way, some people bowing here, some people . That's confusing, and that I've been myself to Vipassana sittings where people just kind of pour into a room, some people slouch over on the couch, other people sit in a chair, some people sit cross-legged every and you know the teacher sort of wanders in and it's quite different, it's quite a different feeling and it doesn't feel, it takes me in that setting quite a bit of time to get settled because I have to get settled from all the activity whereas if I come in here if everything we hope it would be. We all walk in, we all do exactly the same thing. And we don't make noise.

[09:46]

We make an agreement to be as silent as possible. We look at the floorboards and try to get the ones that are when we walk down the side of the Zendo. So that form begins the process of Zazen. And if we didn't, and sometimes when we have had ceremonies here, for example, say Jukai or other ceremonies where we invite people who are not familiar with the forms, you'll see that kind of thing. You know, a bunch of people come in a bunch and they all kind of push through the door. And then there's some, you know, there's different people showing them. If we don't have the, the, uh, with who people are or where they should sit, it doesn't, it feels like a lot of commotion. And that doesn't feel like setting the stage for a very serious ceremony, a ceremony of a really sacred ceremony.

[10:47]

So the forms then, the forms that we do that are not specifically zazen, are forms that have to do with how we experience each other as well. And Sojin talks about, you know, the busyness of the kitchen. People in the room, in the kitchen, or even more when the servers come. And there are ways of, there are expectations of how we behave. First of all, being very aware of each other. So we're not just having our mind on ourselves. You know, when we do the four foundations of mindfulness, we also have to have, we have to be mindful of our body. Where is my body? So as we, if we enter, we're expected to enter the kitchen mindfully.

[11:49]

So where is my body to other people? Where is my body in relationship to a handle sticking over the stove? You know, where am I right now? And having that kind of concentration is the same concentration we have when we're doing zazen. You know, how am I sitting? How's my back? And we have kind of customs and forms, like if you're carrying a knife, you say knife. You don't expect other people to look and see if you happen to be carrying a knife, so we carry our knife. we say knife, everyone in the room knows that there's a knife, someone's holding an instantly aware of that. So we don't risk, even however remote the risk, we don't risk the negative outcome, an accident. And when we bring that mindfulness to, we put a bowl of water

[12:55]

we put it down very gently, very quietly again. Because if we put it down quickly, the water starts moving around, things will slosh, the stove will get messed up. So that kind of form, and we make up, and we often, at least when I've been here for years, we make up forms if we don't have them when we find something goes wrong. You know, oh, we need to have a rule for that. We need to have some guidance. some guidance for that. So Sojan really used the word choreography in his talk. And I like that. Because if you're trained as a dancer or an actor, you know where to go. You're used to be, you know where to put your and you also have to He also talks about improvising.

[13:59]

So sometimes you have to be very aware and you have to make changes in the form as it happens. So the form isn't rigid, but it is a guideline. Mindful. It's basically, I have to practice mindfulness wherever I am on these grounds and be aware at all times. And we have to also, I think he talks to us about that we do need to use our mindfulness, not both to concentrate on what the form is, but also if someone else isn't doing the form, you know, if something else happens, we have. So this form is not rigid, it has an idea. The idea is taking care of the peace, taking care of the harmony, being mindful and

[15:03]

and caring for the other people around you. So if you, for example, were to come into the Zen, sometimes you can't do your steps in and bow because there's some people waiting around to find their seats. So you don't just walk past people or walk in front of them, you wait. And maybe you can't bow in the same place you would bow before. You have to bow in a different place. You're still honoring the altar, but you're also having that awareness of what will work here now, not necessarily what is the way to do it exactly the same way all the time. There's always improvisation. And I think that I'd like that he talked about that, because sometimes we You know, we want to be true to the forms. We make efforts to be true to the forms.

[16:06]

But sometimes there are ways that we can't be. And I'm gonna talk about that, I think, a little bit later. I think I'll leave that part now. The other thing that Sojin talks about is the nature of thinking. and how to work with your thinking when you're working with these forms. And he says, the nature of thinking is to think or to dream. It doesn't make any difference what it is thinking, as long as it can do its thing. The point is the thinking. Feelings are both physical and emotional. Emotional feelings are mostly mental. And he says, when we can maintain a well-balanced posture of uprightness and flexibility, our feelings tend to harmonize with our present situation.

[17:14]

Why should we be thinking about something else or holding onto feelings that have nothing to do with the present situation? It is possible to let go for a while and allow our body and mind to be free. This reminded me. particular section reminded me and this whole section reminds me of, you know, formal, informal, reminds me of the koan about thinking and not thinking. And that koan is a short form of it is. When the master Yao Shan was sitting in meditation, a monk asked, what are you thinking sitting so? Yao Shan replied, I'm thinking, not thinking.

[18:15]

The monk asked, how do you do this? Yao Shan said, non-thinking. And I wanted to something from Katakiri Roshi and his way of talking about non-thinking, because Sojin alludes to non-thinking in this section, but he doesn't go into it. When you're sitting in Zazen, don't think. Don't use your frontal lobe. Your frontal lobe already, so don't use it to think. This doesn't mean to destroy thinking or to keep away from thinking. Just rest. Don't meddle with thinking. As long as you're alive, thinking will come up constantly. But don't meddle with it or fight with it. When you say, I shouldn't think, it's already thinking. All you have to do is to sit down in peace and harmony from moment to moment.

[19:21]

Then there is no space to think. This is think, not thinking. Of course, if you really think you're not thinking, Arrogance, because next you may think, I did it, I'm enlightened. Very naturally a haughty air comes up. Even though we think it's good, good is not so good. If you think matters get worse, much worse. So what should you do? Not think? Not thinking means rest your frontal lobe. Sit down. That's all we have to do. We always measure things by our personal yardsticks. For example, if you experienced a great feeling from your not thinking, you say, wow, this is great. But this is already a measurement. Finally, neither not thinking nor thinking hits the mark. So instead of measuring something by your yardstick, just try to be right in the middle of the world. This is called non-thinking. It is nothing but practice.

[20:24]

Sit down here peacefully, harmoniously, but watch out every day, moment to moment. Watch out because consciousness is always coming up. So he kind of equates thinking and not thinking to ego. So when you're thinking, your ego consciousness gets involved. You tell stories about it. You have your memories from your stories. It's a story, story land when you're thinking, often. Not thinking could also be spiritual bypass. You don't want to think at all. So how then is not thinking? Suzuki Roshi says, When you find it difficult to stop your mind, when you're sitting and when you're still trying to stop your mind, this is the stage

[21:27]

of form is emptiness and emptiness is form. But in this dualistic way, more and more, you will have oneness with your goal. And when your practice becomes effortless, you can stop your mind. This is the stage of form is form, emptiness is emptiness. To stop your mind does not mean to stop your knees of mind. It means your mind pervades your whole body. Your mind follows your breathing. With your full mind, you form mudra with your hands. With your whole mind, you sit with painful legs. So thinking non-thinking and following form and non-form How do we do that?

[22:28]

So Sojin concludes his section by saying formal and informal are just two sides of the same things. You could say thinking and non-thinking and not thinking are two sides of the same. Suzuki Roshi said, Though there is no self, there are still rules. So I was going to ask people to maybe reflect a little bit on how do you hold the forms of your practice? What has experienced, has experiencing your reactions to form taught you? And how do you discern when your ego is taking over? So how do you hold the forms in your practice? What's your story of when you first came, how you hold them now?

[23:37]

How do you relate to the forms? Thank you. I try to hold them lightly. My disposition is such that I like the relationship. forms in front of me and around me, and it gives me a sense of place and where I am. And so I tend to establish a space that's comfortable and formed in a particular way that gives me some peace of mind. And at times when I'm kind of rigid about it, then that leaks out into feelings of judgment and separation and all that. And so, over the years, I've made an effort to still be aware of the forms, but hold them more lightly than when I first came to practice. Yeah. So, the tendency, I think, is, you know, especially when we're new, we want to fit in, we want to do it right.

[24:43]

Yeah, as you described, going into the Vipassana retreat, there's all this energy that's just not familiar. How can I settle it? This form, is it familiar to me? Are there things that, you know, so what about other people and their relationship with forms? Is it something you fight? You have to remember and push. Something that's comforting. Jerry, Dan Jackson is online and he has his hand raised. Okay, Ben Margo. Okay. Dan? Hi, Jerry. Thank you for the talk and the summary of the chapter of Sojin's book. Your question is interesting. For me, when I first came, I found the forms to be kind of off-putting and like

[25:45]

I didn't like being told what to do, but I decided to surrender to them. This was Suzuki Roshi's practice. So I'll just not quibble with it. I'll just go along with it as best I can. So that in that kind of spirit. But I've also come to see. So the forms, as you described, are kind of a mindfulness exercise in a certain sense to help us. This during. activities where we're moving around or the form of sitting. But there's another aspect to it that I'm sort of become aware of, which is that it's also, it sort of expresses harmony because we're all doing it together. So if all doing kin hunting together or more complex things like orioke that we're doing together, but not in unison per se, I think is very beautiful in a sense of how people can do something like eat a meal fairly quickly and in a very beautiful kind of way.

[26:56]

So that's where I'm at with it. So you haven't had experiences where you judged yourself or where you were comparing yourself? Oh, all the time, especially in the Dohan practice, which does not come naturally to me. It's a bit of a struggle or a lot of a struggle sometimes. And so how do you – but I think being judgmental leads you into a spiral that's not going to help you with the form. So when I catch myself feeling that way, I just try to say, oh, well, and move on to the next thing and seek advice from people if I feel like I – Sometimes they offer it to me and sometimes I go and look for it because it's a learning process. Certainly the forms of Kokuyo, Gohan, and Fukudo are visible to everyone else. Following the script and going off key and hitting the clunk at the wrong time are very visible.

[28:06]

And it's wonderful that we all do it the same way and we all kind of rely on it happening in the same way. And then we have to deal with our egos if we make a mistake. And how is that, you know, that's really a big part of the practice, right? How do you redeem your equilibrium when you take on one of these roles and you step in it? you realize you you know you're confused and then you get your handshake or your attention gets taken up with your own ego stuff and you're likely to make a lot more mistakes for the rest of the the period where you have a particular task very hard then to settle way to use another to use our zazen practice as the form to settle us so we use our posture and our breath and the forms of zazen, then, to deal with our trouble with the forms of being kopio or dohan.

[29:11]

But we always have that formal zazen as our teacher, as our going home place. I can go back into myself, go back to my posture, have a straight back, give myself some instructions, and then calm myself down again. like the gravity pulls the water down. Do you want to say something in relationship to them? I was just going to share an experience of my own. Sure. Earlier this week, I was so focused on maintaining upright posture that I totally forgot where I was in relation to other forms. So I was do on, and at the end of the rogue chant, I was so focused on staying upright during the rogue chant that I forgot to be done with the rogue chant, and my rakasu was still .

[30:13]

And the priest that morning came by with their teaching stick and bumped me on the head with it. And it was just like, all right, what's next? So I think that for me, I also try to model off of what Ross said. Just hold it sucked into doing this so correctly that I forget what's coming next. Right. I'm sorry. Well, something I was really appreciating when I was reading this chapter that I think you also highlighted as you kind of moved through the different readings is that like ultimately the are about practicing. It's not about like me practicing being mindful, but kind of remembering or making the switch to, oh, I am awareness. It's not like I'm doing this thing. And I think, I just, I don't know, I feel like I need to practice being mindful, but that's not quite the point.

[31:22]

Well, you're mindful of one thing, but not mindful of other things. In other words, your focus goes to just your back, or something, and so that broad mindfulness, that broad awareness that we have in Zazen is take it all in. I always tell the story that shocked me when I was at Tassajara, I'm not gonna get past it, but we were all sitting, we were in a Shashin, and we were sitting quietly, and I heard a tremendous thud. And nothing happened. And I looked around and I could see across the zendo, somebody had smashed his head into a wall. And I looked around and nobody was doing anything.

[32:24]

And I got up and I walked, tried not to run. And then I gently Someone next to the person who was semi-conscious, and the other person on the other side, and we quietly removed this person from the Zendo. But, and I thought, well, now, hmm, there seems to me there's something wrong here. In other words, I want to be so concentrated. Nothing can distract me. I'm going to include, oh, it's just noise. So I'm sitting there, oh, noise. bear awareness, right? We can get caught in that, and that's not necessarily the right place to be if there is a situation that requires your attention. That's like what you said, you're caught in your one thing, and then there's something else that other people are laughing at or whatever. But in this case, I thought, is this what formal practice is like?

[33:29]

I mean, I really... I really was surprised by it, because I thought, if we're taking these things literally and getting so focused on our not reacting in the Zendo, then what about if something? And we have that in our Zendo a number of times. We've had difficulties, twitching, having a seizure, having mental problems. Yes, we have to sit, and yes, we don't want to disturb anybody else, but yes, we also have to respond appropriately. And that's form, yeah. We're talking about form, and in our chant, in the Heart Sutra, form is emptiness, and I'm wondering if you could say a little bit about how the understanding of form and emptiness kind of inform each other and help us maintain the forms.

[34:30]

the forms well you know emptiness means without fixed self so to me thinking about emptiness includes it's like the water can take any form and hat and also be empty we have to remember that when we're taking the form there's other forms there's other there's change so we're we're just We're holding the forms, and yet the causes and conditions around us are not the same. They're different. I found this chapter really helpful. You asked how we relate to the forms. I relate to the forms here from ego. And in the beginning, Sujan said much of his life he tried to avoid the forms and structures and that's a tendency of mine and when he talks about the forms not just Zendo but the forms in our lives I've related I haven't thought of them as forms but I've

[36:01]

thought of them as obstacles to be overcome or to be frustrated with or angry with. And it was kind of beautiful how he talked about and then extending that to the forms in the rest of our lives and then back to the Zendel. And it just, it was really helpful. Why don't you say something, too? I think that the way that I am affected by the forms, especially in the center, is that it creates a sense of space for me. And it creates a sense of, well, I guess you mentioned emptiness, but of something that I don't know, I guess it touches my heart.

[37:05]

It feels that I am actually in the presence of something spiritual, something very, you know, and it's like, deep respect, something very precious. And when I see that happening in this endo, you know, whether we're eating our meals with the orioque, there's a lot of beauty in that for me. And this sense of spaciousness is And coming into a place in the heart, really.

[38:12]

Thank you. You hold it lightly because there's spaciousness, but it nourishes you. You feel the nourishing by the group. We're all in harmony with each other, and so that harmony Harmony can, you know, promotes a sense of oneness and connectedness. And so that, and that feels good. All right, I'm not gonna get through this. So, section of this, the next part of this section with something called the form of our life. And he starts it with a paradox. He says, all about the form of Zen, there is no special form.

[39:17]

Since Zen is nothing more than the practice of our life, it follows that whatever forms our life takes can be the forms of practice. So here we're worrying about doing forms. And he's saying, no, forms. There's no special form. That doesn't make sense, right? So that's a paradox. Katagiri puts it this way. Zazen is the right gate for entering Buddha Dharma. But the Buddha Dharma is actually human life. Zen is not an intuitive process. It is the most fundamental practice for all sentient beings. This coming back to silence of Zazen helps us to know ourselves and understand the nature of existence in the functioning of our minds. So that's interesting. So how does that fit in with Zen is no special form?

[40:23]

And I think that that's kind of what we were talking about is that there are forms but it's not a rigid it's not necessarily a rigid it doesn't it so it can be something that's held lightly not so not held so tightly as a rigid as the ridge kind of it speaks to us of the of the of holding it lightly could i say something about i think Part of what that points towards for me is the circumstantial nature of the forms. Part of what I loved about doing the forms with Soju is a really creative process. In different kinds of ways, but one of the ways that we're both laughing at is when you're a Doan or a Doan with him in a ceremony, you never knew exactly what he was going to do.

[41:30]

you follow this sometimes he would do something different he had so many scripts in his body over so many years and you just had to flex with whatever he was doing and so you had a sense of what the forms are it's kind of like we were talking about at the very beginning you have a sense of what the forms are what you want to do but what you do in this individual is circumstantial yes within yourself and with other people. So very creative. The forms can be very, very creative. They're not rigid. And so... But that ability really comes with great training, I think. You know, because he talked about you have to be willing to throw the forms away, but in any, like anybody that practices a craft or an art or music or, you know, painting, there's a strict form that one goes through before one can throw it all away.

[42:31]

And he did that himself. And the other thing that you said reminded me of when he used to talk about Suzuki Roshi coming through the Zendo and people waiting for the period to end. And then he would suddenly say, we're going to sit 50, don't move. So it's like, you know, the forms are the forms, but Sojin used to say they're arbitrary, and we could change the forms and it wouldn't matter. The point is that we're in some kind of harmony with one another. Yeah, and there are other factors to consider, and circumstances change, so we adapt. It's it's 1 of the beauty of the do don't want Leo is that you're listening in with each other and timing with each other. And if someone's a little sleepy, you're a little late. You don't cut them off.

[43:31]

Wake up and kind of dance with them. So tune with each other in the forms. Excuse me, Jerry. Yeah, we have online fear would like to speak. Sure. Hi, Jerry. Thank you for the, what came to mind, sort of like learning to ride the bicycle. And when we first started learning it, we have the, we have the, so we down the two wheel and we start with a tricycle and then slowly. But once you learn it, we kind of sort of let go of that. But at the same time, we always have to be alert. And not so much posture, yes, but just being aware of our surrounding. And for me, this sort of reminds me of always, especially when you're riding a bicycle on the street, if you're not mindful, it's over.

[44:42]

But at the same time, you let go a lot of your fear. And I think that's kind of similar to like dropping body and mind. Richard is so paranoid when you're holding on to that handlebar or pedaling. So that kind of source comes to mind, but I want to know... Yeah, although not dropping body and mind, because if you drop body and mind, you're not aware of them. You know, so we're aware. Be aware. That's what I was talking about with the noise and the guy with the... concussion, you know. You have to be aware. You have to be aware where you walk. You can trip. When you're doing kin in outside, you have to be looking at this. You have to be adapting, and you can't just walk straight. If you walk straight, there's a place where you're going to run into a broken step or a root, and you have to walk around it.

[45:45]

So we always have to have that intention of very carefully doing one. And it may not be a straight line, but it's the idea of still doing it quietly, mindfully with each other. That's the kind of the underlying thing. So we can drop the judging mind, but at the same time, we hold awareness at all times. Thank you. The other point that Sojin makes when he talks about the forms of life, which I found interesting, and he talks about there are forms everywhere, basically, everywhere there's a form. And he talks about, he challenges us and says, well, how can we use the common forms that we encounter in our ordinary lives at work and I added within our family and amid the myriad complications in present-day life.

[46:50]

How do we merge the spirit of practice with the circumstances of our life as we meet them every day? They are going to be new. They're changing. How am I? How am I in a work situation? The circumstances in a work situation are different. How do I follow my intentions? How do I follow the precepts? How do I behave in a compassionate manner in these different circumstances? And how is the best way for me to handle a child who's misbehaving? Is there a form for that? A lot of people online, you just check online and they tell you what to do with the correct thing to do about everything. But there are ways of being that you learn to do, for example, with a child, especially as they go through being a toddler and young, those ages, they have to be civilized.

[48:06]

And so we have forms that we help them with, right? This is how, you know, You ask for something if you want it. You know, we must sit down quietly, you know, to eat. No, you can't grab handfuls of food. You know, this is how we do it. So we create a form for the family to eat so that everyone can be in harmony eating. A toddler throwing food around the table or jumping on the table. I have a grandson that's hyperactive and does that if you don't stop him. So these are how do we practice, how do we create a supportive environment for every situation? And that's when he's talking about our bringing our practice and our zazen out into our lives outside the gates. That's what he's talking about. We don't have a nice set of rules for that, unfortunately, but we all have to work on those.

[49:11]

And you have our mindfulness, have our ability to concentrate, have our ability to stay with our breath, see where our feet are. Where are we? Am I okay here to make a decision that I have to make in this stance? Okay, I can do that now. I'm settled. And what would be the most skillful thing? But so we create without thinking about it. And our practice often of harmonizing in the zendo often leaks into the other areas of our life. Because we learn it works here. This is how to be harmonious. It feels better when it's harmonious. What would be something I can do here? So I think that's really interesting to me. Do you want to take a stretch break? Yeah. Can I say something about that?

[50:20]

Yeah. I read that as an invitation, like you were saying earlier, to just, you know, when we're all together and we're in the Zendo, the forms do allow us to all communicate harmoniously, right? But when we go outside, How do you sit zazen all day when you're not here? And so, what are the things I do in my life always, and how can I turn those things into me? Where I can then bring centering and think about posture into my activity. When I get in my car, maybe I can turn that into a form. You know, maybe before I get in my car, I just say something to myself, chant something to myself before I get in the car.

[51:20]

Or when I leave work, you know, I do it every day. How can I remind myself to, you know, center and posture and whatever it is. Although it's not the same, you know, some of it is that we bring some of it. Ms. Ogin was talking about waiting at the Safeway line and balancing on both feet. So, but it's not necessary forms as zazen. It may be other forms that are more suitable, but the mindfulness and the tension and the concentration on the setting and then creating some container for these activities. That spirit, it's about taking the spirit of sasen out, not necessarily the forms of sasen. Sometimes we do take the forms, yeah.

[52:23]

So many of our forms revolve around bowing, and I love bowing, actually. I spent some time and when I came back, I couldn't stop bowing because I had been, I mean, Japanese bow at stop signs. They bow constantly. And we bow to our cushion. We bow to each other. And so I don't know that it's for us to start bowing in a very formal way in the outside world, but I do find myself kind of doing this kind of a mini head nod to people. And I think it's well received. The spirit of bowing, I think, is what we want to take to the world. I think it's acknowledging people. and beating people. But I don't think, you know, you don't necessarily take a Japanese custom and take it out in the street. But you can take a smiling and nodding to everybody you pass out in the street, and that becomes your form.

[53:27]

You make a vow, I'm going to do this, and it's a good thing to do, and I do it. And people generally respond to a kind of heartfelt connection. And that's your new form. So that's what I'm saying, take the spirit of zazen, the spirit of the bowing out, not necessarily the bowing itself, because that's cultural. I guess I was just going to say that I appreciate how in the zendo with sitting and walking, I feel like it helps train my capacity to be aware as my body is like walking and so I find that like just the act of like walking down Russell Street it's like not like oh I'm like trying to be aware it's just like oh the attention naturally like goes into the feet I don't know I just remember there's like sometimes like at work just like sitting in kind of a

[54:39]

the form in which I have the habit of holding some awareness because it's sitting in the way I do in this endo. It's like, oh, great. I don't have to remember the body remembers for me. Well, that's great. That's great. And that's what, of course, that's what eventually happens with all of the forms. If they get in your body, they're part of your conditioning. You just automatically do it. You don't have to necessarily stop and say, what am I going to do today? That is kind of in, that's part of you. But then bringing that out in some way, that's the challenge. It's not going to be the same way, but it's going to be the spirit of it. Yeah. I was thinking of the valley of my middle school students, how confusing. But a couple of years ago, I started ending a lot of classes in your actions kids by saying like, bye everybody, I appreciate you.

[55:41]

And I just realized it's like it is a similar spirit that will often end interactions like that. And if I met them all at the door like this, they'd be like, what are you doing? But it's getting at the same level. It's a verbal and a physical connection. So you're using your body and your voice to connect. And that's how we connect with other people. So whether it's bowing or waving or You know, it's nodding, it's the same thing. And culturally, it changes depending upon, you know, some cultures are much more, they meet you when somebody pats you on the back or something like that. And, you know, that would also feel funny because we're not, most of us are not used to that. So I am really sorry. They say bye, thank you. Yeah, but I can't think a weird number of times. I just wanna, we started late and I don't know how people feel about that.

[56:44]

We started like 20 minutes late. We can take a little break here and then we can talk about, you know, do about time because we didn't get, we didn't get any. Well, you haven't till quarter of nine. Yeah. Ending time. I think Jerry's asking if some people want to stay to make up for the material she didn't cover. Let's just take a couple minutes. Yes, let's take a couple minutes and we'll see. I have to go. Yeah. And I'd love to have it. I was like, oh, thank you. It takes a while to get used to it. Then you start to really, it has so many details. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, I find it, I find it. Yeah. I've seen teachers do the high five to the kids coming up in class.

[57:47]

I didn't do that anymore. The school I was at at first. And then I realized the different style looks better, but setting up materials, a lot of them come in to start talking. I love them. Yes, they are. What they say is quite simple in some ways, but actually it's much more than . all this other material. I think there's a special group of us who, like, so would you get along with them? He may not hope that they're there.

[58:49]

He's been, yeah, he's, [...] he's similar to him. Yeah. I was hearing that, but it's, So just congrats in being in a classroom environment and being like comfortable. I'm not slightly and never in control of the city. No, I'm in the city. Yeah. To help. So they were now practicing together. And they come from the same position. Yeah. Like a small private school. Had a very useful mission. And it's the same thing.

[59:51]

He was a beatnik, you know, he was an abstract artist. He didn't do any of the, he was an artist that didn't conform to any of the customs, any of the, you know, the school of art. I think that remains the case. Well, because, you know, especially now, in our big world, we're interacting with all this people and ideas, and we can't... We're going to be getting input and have to know how to do that.

[60:53]

So we can't stick to some way of that. She was talking about a form of bowing. It's not going to work. It's not going to work in this culture or that culture. Smiling at people. In Indian reservation, they don't like to be smiled at. They think of that as... Do you think I'm going to start this new form and smile at everybody I meet? Do you think I've done it? I think I have done that. I think I have done that. I'm in some place in the southwest and I can't use my form. A new form. You have to be in form. You have to read about what the forms are. The forms change.

[62:03]

We don't know. We've reached an impasse. Goodbye. I take pride. Your turn. Yes, yes. It's all from ego. Oh, that's very interesting, isn't it? It was from ego I wanted to. Yeah. But it is interesting. Yeah, it's very interesting. Maybe it's from ego, but yet it's beneficial. You can be pregnant with meaning. It gets in the way of connection. Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. That's the spirit of Sazen is being wonderful with everybody. Colorizing in a harmony. And they can violate that in whatever way. Anyway, I think we better... Well, we're smaller.

[63:17]

We're intimate now. We have a new form. The form may be different. I think we actually have talked about... I just was wondering if anybody resonated with the form, the idea of the forms you create in the other realms of your life and whether the spirit of Zazen, how that shows up. It showed up for you by you're developing another way to relate to the kids. So the spirit of zazen, but not the form. We do a lot of bowing in our house at special occasions, or holidays, or anniversaries of things, and we've always done that.

[64:26]

When our daughter was really little, we did bowing every time. And I remember one time we went down to Jack London Square. It was around the holiday time and there was a huge tree in the square. And we were walking along and she said, oh, let's bow to the tree. It just touched my heart because it's just that that form we can take with us anywhere, really. Yeah, especially to the incentive being realm. But also, I think, I mean, some people will people respond in different ways. Again, it's sort of like, it's not only the action, but the mind that's doing, you know, the spirit with which you're taking the action. Excuse me, Jerry. Sue O has her hand up. Okay. Thank you for hearing. Thank you, Tara. We take care of each other here.

[65:27]

Yeah. It really got me going about taking the forms, the spirit of Zazen home. And I think that those who've got, who've had training and whether it's taking care of the altar at Chidun or cooking, assisting cooking or dishwashing, it allowed me being a Kokyo. I wanted to create something in my home that gave me that feeling. I don't know if you'd call it a sacred space, but a space of belonging. I guess, I don't know, this might be part of my way-seeking mind talk later, but I can remember from the time I was reminded when I was in kindergarten, I loved it because I knew the rules, the forms, they were clear, they were clearly presented, and they were consistent.

[66:31]

And I carried that into my teaching and I carried it from the Zen Center to home in a lot of ways. And it was very calming for me. Yeah. Well, especially for young children going to school, they have no idea. You know, they just walk into the classroom. Everybody's strange. They never left their home before, maybe. And they're very happy to have a way to belong. So if you could give them a few things of here's how you come in and here's where you go, here's your seat, this is your seat. It's always gonna be your seat. The bell rings and this happens and the bell rings and that happens. Yeah, it gives people a sense of security. But I think, you know, sometimes we take our practice home in that, you know, We do create altars in the kitchen sometimes or in other places around our house to provide that same thing.

[67:41]

But it's again in the spirit of Zazen to provide a place where you can be quiet and still and where you can feel grounded. And if the usuals and we're going to I'm just going to get into the section on ceremony because Because our practice and our forms, the forms actually create ceremony. And there's a version of this book where Sojin talks about sacrifice and ceremony. And he talked about finding out the etymology of sacrifice was sacred ceremony. And he talks about sacred ceremony includes some form of renunciation and some form of setting an intention. And whenever we have a formal ceremony at BCC, we often start with entangled karma, confession and repentance.

[68:55]

So we cleanse ourselves. And then we take refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Then we usually after the repentance, we maybe call our ancestors to join us. And then after that, we take refuge. And then after that, we then make our bodhisattva vows. So by doing that, we're creating a ceremony, a sacred ceremony. And that sets the tone. And you can set that tone in different ways. In Green Gulch, in Tassajara, in San Francisco Zen Center, that early morning every day starts with confession and repentance, all ancient tangled karma, and the ancestors. So that sacred space is part of the form. but it's not a form, necessarily a rigid form, although it can take, obviously we say the same things, but it's not, go ahead.

[70:05]

I'm curious, I'm struck by how we were just talking about the forms creating a sense of life for us, and now we're kind of talking about sacrifice. I'm wondering if you had anything to say about, like, Yeah, this, like, duet, this, I don't know, seeming, like, what is it called, like, juxtaposition between, like, and, like, letting go of keeping Margot safe. I don't know. Well, I think, I think, that is, it's, first, I mean, he uses the word sacrifice. Well, sacrifice doesn't really mean sacrifice. It means sacred, you know, sacred ceremony. So I think that that's, so he doesn't necessarily mean sacrifice. And he uses this shape of a ceremony, even though you're confessing and repenting, that is a container for that.

[71:15]

So you can feel safe. We're all confessing and repenting. We're all recognizing that we have acted in ways that were not skillful, whether we know it or not, that we may have done some harm. And so we're just acknowledging our humanity and saying, you know, somewhere in our lives, circumstances have arisen. We've not behaved in the most optimal way. We don't know, maybe we don't even remember right now, but we're just being, again, we're joining together. So in joining together, we're all saying it together. So we all feel I'm going to be humble enough to admit my mistakes. Everyone else is admitting their mistakes. So it is actually creating a bigger container that you can actually bring your mistakes. Your mistakes are included. So he talks about that and he says that zazen is the sacred.

[72:20]

ceremony or he treats zazen as a sacred ceremony too so that's that's part of what um i think that's part of the spirit of it if it weren't if it was just going in sitting up straight you know moving my body like this being really uncomfortable uh sitting exactly like this never can move all that kind of stuff that's rigid and that's not really taking care of yourself but if you are if it's part of a ceremony we just as long as you're being in harmony with everybody, then that's part of the sacred ceremony. And that creates the idea of wholeness. Because the ceremony basically, ceremony really takes the boundaries away as we indulge. The ceremonies always include fire, water, you know, the four elements, like they always have candles, they always have flowers.

[73:22]

They have water. They are ways of creating that place where we can come together. And we are in that oneness of ceremony together. So that's the purpose of ceremony, sacred ceremony. I think that's what Sojin was talking about. And he sees that our Zazen practice is part of that. What is it, you know, what have you guys felt when you've been at ceremonies here? What sort of, did they feel odd? Or did they feel inclusive? Strange? What kind of, did you, what was that? There's something about the repetition of ceremony that

[74:22]

makes it more meaningful, I think. I'm thinking of the bodhisattva ceremony that we had every month. And the first time or two, I would keep up with the text and understand what was going on. Wow, this is a lot of bowing and a lot of frustrating. But it becomes part of you over time. And I think that's where the meaning starts to, I don't know, unfold. I see Hacks. Yes, thank you. Hi, Jerry. Thank you for the class and also thanks to everyone who's been sharing. When you asked the question about ceremonies, it was interesting because I think my first assumption was kind of having avoided formal religious practice for my whole life. I had this idea that they're like superhuman or like, oh, they're just a special, like the idea of sacredness, like an exalted thing.

[75:29]

And I think that's all true. But when I experienced them, I'm like, oh, these are profoundly human. They're very human. And actually those moments when I noticed like, oh, okay, I'm really tired of bowing right now. Or like, oh, is it? Like those moments actually make, they like enliven people. my life and my practice and actually helps me remember like oh what we're doing here isn't like getting rid of our humanity actually it's really making more space for it and sharing it i mean including everyone in it with you yeah marley thank you jerry um I think what I want to say is that the sheer fact of the way that so many of these are comedic, that it's hard to have a ceremony on your own.

[76:38]

You can, but there's still something interpersonal or There's a connection going on. And I love that when, I don't know, people are chanting or bowing, you can have your moment of, I've fallen off the rhythm, and yet there's this current that you can kind of join and harmonize with. And yeah, there's... I feel like that teaches me a lot, just all on its own. So thanks everyone. Yeah, and the rest of the group holds you up when you're foundering. Do we have time for another comment, Jerry? Kabir has his hand raised. Yeah. Thank you.

[77:44]

Kabir? Yes, thank you. I try to keep in mind what Sojin always said that when you leave the cushion. And so I try to keep an eye on my posture and breath and be aware of the body. And that's been very helpful, especially driving or sitting in front of a computer or dealing with various things. So that's what I constantly keep that in mind. and to make a comment about what we felt when we first walked in Zendo. Last Wednesday, I brought my nephew to the Zendo. This was his first time to come in and second time ever meditated in his life. Driving home, we're walking the Berkeley Zen Center, and I said, I'll bring you on Saturday because it's more formal. He goes, more formal than this?

[78:44]

and that was just a Wednesday night class but sometimes it does feel it does feel a little bit intimidating when you walk into the Zendo and because everything is just so perfect in a lot of ways and everybody's sort of moving and I wouldn't have come back if that sort of that form like carried on outside the Zendo because Outside of Zendo, everything just kind of drops and everybody's just kind of approachable, friendly and everything else. But when you decide to Zendo, it can get a little stiff, just my opinion. But then when you leave and you're saying hello to everybody, that just kind of, that's what we keep coming. I guess that's just. But you could consider that another form. In other words, our form is having tea. Yes. That's another form. The form is some people go to the kitchen and make tea and get the cookies looking cute on a plate and whatever.

[79:50]

And when you come out of there, there's a way for you to relate. People like Sue will come up to you and say, I haven't seen you here before. My name's Sue. Is there anything you want to know about Berkeley Zen Center? Maybe you'd like to be a member. There are forms. They're not the same, but they're forms. The form of accepting other people and including other people is part of the form and offering food and tea. It's part of the you belong here to that we want to transmit. We don't want to make people feel like they're new and they feel uncomfortable. Most of it, a lot of us tend to go up to people that we see, have been seen before and welcome them. So the welcoming is also a form. Yes, absolutely.

[80:51]

And giving some thanks. Okay. I'm very well aware of the time and I just want to think if there's anything I have to say. Luckily, the good morning section we can ignore. Oh, I thought that this other section deserved a hearing, which is practicing within the limitations of our life. So he's saying, we all wanna practice, we all wanna do the forms, we make the forms accessible, but we also do it within the limitations of our life. Sojin was recalling that it was his faith in practice in Suzuki Roshi that led him to overcome his resistance to the formality of Zen practice.

[81:51]

And he said he stuck with it because of Suzuki Roshi. So there was his connection with a teacher that was really important that allowed him to relate or share his experiences and his . And there was somebody there that would be there to reassure him and continue to include him. And he also said that Suzuki Roshi recognized. There were some there were some restrictions and limitations that we brought with us when we practice. So Sojin had his, maybe his cultural restrictions or his being an abstract artist and a beatnik and not being a nonconformist, he brought that with him.

[82:54]

So that kind of was a limitation or stood in the way with him between him and practice. And that he got by by developing a relationship, he was able to do that. But he also used that as a kickoff that with all of our restrictions, there are a lot of restrictions that we have in our lives. We have family commitments, we have work commitments, we have physical restrictions, we have chronic illnesses, mental health issues, all of those things when we come. And he is saying that those are part of it. We bring those into it. We bring those things into the ritual. We use the forms to actually be with those restrictions in our life. And the practice of Zazen and learning how to be with whatever is allows us to look at

[84:01]

Is this really a restriction? And for some people, we can't practice the same way as other people. For example, if you type work schedule, kids at home, somebody at home, that kind of thing, you're not able to practice in the same way. So it doesn't look the same as everybody else's practice. But you do it what you can. you practice within those limitations. Sojan used to say that you have to, not everybody can come and sit every day or even will ever be able to. But if you come within your restrictions and you do what you can do, then that's it. So if you have a busy life and you're commuting to where, I mean, working in the city and commuting and whatever, you know, Sojan said, well, pick, how many days a week you wanna come in the morning, you know, and make a commitment to him, make a commitment, this is when I'm gonna be here.

[85:08]

And then we'll talk about how that went. And then we . And so this form and this restrictiveness is not, is really not that restrictive. And, you know, we heard Clay Taylor give his way seeking mind talk. a couple of weeks ago about how he could never sit. He lay down. People in wheelchairs sitting in the zendo, in their wheelchairs. That didn't make them any less part of the community or any less vigorous practitioners. They were just different. They couldn't, they could not do the form in any ideal way. And they all had an extra special challenge because they know they would see everybody else doing these things and you know the tendency would be to feel inadequate or left out i'm not i'm really not part of this and sojin says in this thing which is i think is really important that everyone is so whatever limitation you have bringing it bring it to us you know we can we can deal with that we can work with that we can find a form that works for you but that form and

[86:25]

is like a ceremony. We recognize what we can't do, we decide what we do it. So it's like the same kind of commitment anybody makes. It just doesn't look the same. And I think that's really important because that's an answer to the objection of people feeling like they can't do it, like it's too painful. do it i can't possibly do that well you see now i mean from when i first started here we all struggled cross-legged and we tried to do half lotus at least and we sat there in agony um and um now when it does an instruction we say well you know you have to know your whether it's really possible for you to sit in that position maybe you maybe you can't maybe your body is not able to do that because you have arthritis you know, or whatever. And so here we have kneeling benches, we have sitting benches, we have being on three cushions.

[87:31]

All of that was new here. That was not the way it was when we started out. Everybody was really, really trying to do the right way of sitting. And I think one of the beauties of this Sangha is that we have gotten ourselves to a point where we recognize But we want to make, as long as somebody is willing to go into the ceremony with the spirit of Zazen and the idea of making a commitment, then they're no different. They're no different. Their effort is . So I think that's the last thing I wanted to say. So how does that sound? How does that feel? Could I say something about that? As a yoga teacher, I have come to appreciate that those people who are not so flexible are the ones that are working the hardest. So those that have difficulty with the knees and all of that, and I remember having a lot of difficulty with my knees, you know.

[88:38]

Yeah, you know, in a certain sense, it's like bowing to them for sticking with it and for trying to find a way to breathe through the pain. you know, whereas for the other of us that are by now gotten used to it and the body is comfortable, it's just like, oh, you know, I can actually fall asleep now in this position. Whereas before it was excruciating, you know, so, and yet it was meant to stay there and to breathe through the pain and to try to every now and then, you know, be kind to myself and change position and all that. But it's a, It's interesting to recognize that, and I try to keep that in mind in my classes, that those that are actually working the hardest, they are practicing the hardest. Did you want to say something? Yeah, just reminiscing about the old days, with the difficulty of finding a posture and sitting still, cross-legged, quarter lotus, half lotus, what have you, there was a vitality to the practice that people were making the effort

[89:51]

as was handed down to us from Suzuki Roshi. So how do we find comfort and stillness for a period of zazen? For me, it's not like in my home where I have a chair like this and it's very comfortable. It's not so easy. So the danger, I feel, that if we go straight to we want you comfortable and find a find a bench or something to see what it's like to try it, cross-legged. And if your knees are up and you're not so comfortable because it's not what we're used to, well, try that for a while. You don't have to get it. And there's always chairs and benches and chairs on their side. So we did have that there. I think it's more explicit now about that comfort. and taking care of our bodies, as I do, I sit in the chair now, sit across like it anymore. But we have an aging population. Aging population, yeah. Yeah, just a word or voice of caution not to go easy right away because I know myself, I like to be comfortable and easy.

[91:03]

And if I have to push myself and get up early or work harder, whatever it happens to be, I feel like I've accomplished something differently. The easy route, which tends to be my default in many ways. And we're kind of left your own devices of, how do I take responsibility in doing the best? And of course, it's a different time now. And so we're all adjusting to that. And we're together and feelings and experiences that we get to talk about with you in your class and get a kind of a, what's the climate now? But I can... Yeah. Well, I agree. There's a... There's a delicacy, for example, when you're doing zazen instruction. You don't want to tell everybody... We have two lines of... Different people have different attitudes when they're giving zazen instruction.

[92:08]

Some people are so anxious to... comfortable that they kind of point out all the different things and you know don't worry you can do all of this thing and other people would say well maybe you could try sitting cross-legged for short periods of time you know at home and you know try it for five you know don't give up on it on the attempt to sit cross-legged and and start some other way yeah so i think it's very legitimate to say yeah you we want to make a wholehearted effort to be able to take the posture of our ancestors, and yet, and we have to recognize that for some people that's never gonna happen. And other people could do it if they . You know, it's important not to send mixed messages. So new people coming in, they hear it one way, but they hear it another way, well, what do I do? I think that's a good thing we should talk about with the Zazen instructors, because we haven't.

[93:11]

And it is, and so that's the issue of wanting people to not feel the uneasiness or separateness of coming in. Yeah, we're over time anyway. But yeah, to feel that, that's a legitimate concern. On the other hand, we want to encourage people to get the full benefit of that cross-legged, very stable posture. But it's interesting. What do you think about that? Well, I personally feel that this practice has shown me that I can do more than I think I can do. So from the perspective of sas and instruction, I always encourage people to try to sit cross-legged. And it is hard. I was very athletic and I could not get my knees to the ground when I first started.

[94:17]

But Sojin was very clear that the body stretches over time and if you just stay with it, you know, it's like learning anything. And I think it's a real mistake to feel comfortable on day one. because then there's no learning curve really in terms of that. Yeah, I think it's a very, it's a kind of a little bit of a delicate. It is. It's a little bit of a delicate dance. And it's slightly controversial now. Yeah, I think it is. So that's, we don't have any answers for it. No. You know, work at it and maybe just more open conversation about it. Yeah. Even with people who are coming, sometimes someone giving a talk about, you know, some people, Maybe it would, you know. Well, on Friday, Carol Paul is giving something. We will tell her that. Give her some tips. People will bring that up. Yeah. We should stop here. Yes, we should.

[95:17]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, thanks for. Thank you. Giving me back my time. Thank you, Jerry. Should we do the four rounds? Yes. Delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless, I vow to end them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable, I vow to be confident. Amen.

[96:16]

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