So this is, we come to the last day. My understanding of our practice is that a monk is someone who is ordained as a priest. A monk is someone who can be a priest. Well, let's say a priest is someone who has a function.

[01:16]

When we go to Tassajara, we have priests, monks, and lay people. But we call our monks priests. But when we go to Tassajara, everybody's practicing the same way. So we say, according to me, everyone is a monk, because it's cloistered. A monk is someone who's cloistered. That's what I call a monk. A priest is someone who is more active in the world. In the world? Active in the world. Yeah, I was sort of surprised by in the world. Why? Because I have this idea that priest's activity is classically, traditionally in the temple. Well, temple is in the world. That's true. Monastery is closer to the world. It's not a monastery.

[02:33]

The priest has a function in the temple, but if you say the world, that makes it broader. Well, yeah. The temple, the world, or in a monastery. Okay, great. Yeah. And a layperson, although not ordained as a priest, practices as a monk in the monastery. Yeah. But during an ongo. Yeah. You haven't really speak up because I'm curious, during service, when we do the full vows, who are we vowing to? I guess the obvious answer would be we're vowing to the Buddha, but I'm curious if there's more to it.

[03:36]

Yes, so then the question is, what is the Buddha? Is that a question for me? Yes! So we are vowing to the Buddha? Yes, you know, we're vowing to our Big Self. But actually, we're just bowing. Okay. That has to be related to Jerry's talk yesterday. Yeah. We're bowing to... Just bowing is correct, but we bow to the Buddha, we bow to the altar, So usually we say we bow to ourself, but that doesn't mean our ego, small self.

[04:36]

I don't want to explain too much. So I don't know if she means the difference between bowing in gassho or prostrations. Why don't you ask her? That's what I'm asking. I wasn't, well, you brought it up, we can discuss that too, but that wasn't the point of my question. Thank you though. First question, what is the function of a monk, what is the function of a priest in relation to the Buddha? Meaning, I understand the Buddha to be universal love, And what is the function of a priest? Well, a priest is a fully ordained person, which is traditionally called a home leaver, not a home maker.

[05:51]

So although we don't strictly follow that protocol anymore, I mean, at least in the practice that has come down to us because our priests are also homemakers. So although we're fully ordained, it's, we can say, leaving home without going anywhere. So, um, uh, we're not, we're somewhere in between lay and, um, uh, priest. The way that our practice has been set up. So, um, um, A priest in our particular lineage is someone whose first function is to practice, although the priest may have a family.

[07:18]

This is traditional in Japan, because in the Meiji period, mid-19th century, the priests were allowed to marry and have families. And that changed everything, because originally, priests or monks were ordained and monastic. So we're in the stage of figuring things out, still, for America. So if you're ordained as a, we call it as a priest, you're a novice. You're usually a novice for a long time. It doesn't mean you're a teacher. It simply means you're taking vows to be everything but celibate.

[08:21]

Usually, the mark of a priest is to be celibate. So, what we have done, if you're celibate, that can create a lot of problems, and not very many people can actually practice that way. It takes a certain kind of person to actually be celibate, especially if they're 21. This has been the conundrum of our practice. So at some point when the novice priest has matured, I'll put it that way, has matured, they're eligible to have transmission and become a full priest.

[09:38]

So a person that has transmission is a full priest and has gone through various machinations of becoming a poor priest, and can carry the lineage, can teach independently, teach independently, and So until you have Dharma transmission, even though you are ordained as a priest, you're not authorized to have your own Sangha or to teach, I mean, to do ordinations. Although, so what I have done, and many people have followed this,

[10:45]

which has its own problems, is to authorize laypeople who have practiced a long time and have been shuso—shuso is another stage—to teach, but they cannot give donations. kind of the way the land lays at the moment. There's probably some other little thing in your question, but... Yes. So what do you tell your students? So you were talking about how you learned to drive. You looked at the line. to be careful about not thinking that they know how to drive unless they really do it.

[12:09]

So to be careful about not getting into accidents. Not to think that they know how to drive Yeah, you have to get the license. There's a lot of people on the road like that. Yeah, well that's, you know, we were very, we're going to be very careful about who gets the army transmission, in our lineage, and who gets our day in the service. And then, suddenly, you know, There's exponentially people getting ordained all over the place without qualification. And getting dharma transmission without qualification. And it's like, those people that have the qualification have been doing this for a long time, they go, oh god, what's happening to the fire, you know?

[13:15]

It's getting watered down. So we want to keep the bar high and not let it get watered down. So that's our, Yeah. So go slow. Go slow. And really have some real maturity before you start giving lectures and teaching and all that. If you're sincere and you totally give yourself to the practice and not try to get ahead of yourself, everything is It's true. You just do the practice. You don't ask for anything. You don't try to get ahead. You don't want to, you know, you don't try to, oh, can I be ordained? I mean, it's a great request in yourself to do that, and we totally appreciate that request, but just take your time.

[14:20]

We say no desires, but we do have that desire, right? Our enthusiasm drives us to that desire, but just be patient, just patiently practice, and everything that should come to you will come to you. I'm just wondering, since you have been a Zen teacher, a Roshi, for probably decades, and you probably practice the same forms every day, and it might be a little repetitive, I'm just wondering what does that feel like? Do you sometimes get bored? I never get bored. I never get bored of practice. Could you elaborate? And it's only been 54 years. But I'm still a novice.

[15:22]

Yeah, I don't get bored because I'm still a novice. I'm still learning how to do this. And I make a lot of mistakes. And I bumble through them. So... But I have to tell you that I made my vow to not expect anything and just, what I told Raghav, to just do my practice sincerely and give myself totally to the practice, that everything would that I needed when I lived up here. And that's what happened. It's the way it all happened. So, it's good not to expect something, you know, giving yourself to practice means just practicing.

[16:36]

If someone is to be ordained as a priest, it means you totally dedicate yourself to That's the first thing in your life. You don't have another thing that you want to do in your life. You don't want to go to college. You don't want to get a job in the industry or something like that, or earn some more medals somewhere. You just simply want to practice, and that's your life. That's how we ordain people. And even then, not pure, but it still works pretty well. So we don't ordain you in order to give you another badge or put something into your portfolio. Like, oh, I've got an ordainment to bring, stop. That's all there is for you. Coming off of Ray's question about do you ever get bored after sitting for 55 years,

[17:42]

For people who are newer to practice and boredom arises after a few weeks, a month, a year, is the instruction that you give yourself pretty much the same that you would give to somebody new, or is it a stage that people have to... Boredom is something that, when you expect something and it's not there, that's boredom. So we don't say, don't expect anything. Then you won't be bored. Don't crave something that you're not going to get, and you won't be bored. Boredom is like a gap. It's like, what now? But what now is a great question. That's an enlightened question. What now? So it's necessary to be bored. It's really good. It's a good reference. The best practice you can have is to be bored.

[18:47]

Because it means there's nothing in your head. It's a hindrance. Except your boredom. But your boredom is not a hindrance. Nothing is a hindrance. When nothing is a hindrance, no matter which way it goes, and you're still practicing through, If difficulty is not your practice, then you're not practicing. Whatever it is that is your difficulty is your practice. You mentioned desire. What about the desire to be good? Desire to practice, right? It's no longer called desire. Desire to practice is no longer called desire.

[19:50]

It's called way-seeking mind. There are conversions in our practice. And one of them is conversion from desire, the world of desire, to the world of practice. So we call desire the world of karma. Because we're always creating problems through our, when we create karma, through desire. And we all have desire, and we all make mistakes, and we all get caught by it. And at the same time, to practice through the difficulties that desire presents as way-seeking mind. That's why way-seeking mind is how we approach the world of desire.

[20:56]

Wobbling between way-seeking mind and desire. Who's leading? What are you thinking about? Buddha leading? Or is self-centeredness leading? Right? And then, five-foot array, you know, who's going to win? So, that's the difficulty. That's exactly the difficulty we have in our lives. And boredom is part of that. Oh, I'm bored with my son. When he was a little boy, he'd go to bed, but he didn't want to go to sleep. And 10 or 11 o'clock at night, little boys coming out of the room, I'm bored. I'd say, that's okay. No problem. Keep going. I have a t-shirt that says, mortem is an interesting thing.

[22:03]

One of my favorites. I don't know if anyone else is interested, but I'm wondering what kind of words or thoughts are inside that blue wrap you have in front of you. If there's anything you were thinking. I know. But maybe others aren't interested. Yeah, true. But by the time it gets to the seventh day, my mind is still full of different things I could talk about. Exponentially exploding. But I want to keep it simple. I don't want to talk about all those things. So I have to narrow it down to exactly what it is I want to talk about. Could you talk about picking and choosing, especially with regard to people?

[23:09]

And sort of, I'm really interested in your evolution from the time you started studying with Suzuki Roshi until now. In regard to people? Yes. Well, before I started practicing, I had friends who were of the affinity with, you know, and things that we did that we had that were pleasurable or whatever, you know. How do you have friends? But after I started practicing, and after, especially after I became a teacher, I had no preferential friends. Because everyone was equal. became equal through my practice. And especially for being a teacher, you can't have favorites.

[24:12]

I mean, I cannot have favorites or people that I like because we had certain kinds of, you know, although that's true, but still, you know, there are people that you communicate with better than others. So as my practice matured, I had less and less friends, but everyone was my friend. Somehow, I've never felt lonely or bereft or something like that. I just feel whatever affinity I have with people is what I have. So I don't pick and choose my friends or pick and choose who I relate to.

[25:17]

When somebody comes down the path, I'm just open. I don't have anything in my mind. I'm always assessing who that person is, how they walk, how they handle themselves, what they say and so forth. But I try to make no judgments about them. And in the Dōkasan room, I don't have anything in my mind. We just open. And if something comes up, we deal with it. And that's the way pretty much I deal with whoever I meet. I'm just open. Let's see what happens. I went to dinner with my brother-in-law and my son and my wife. So we went to dinner one time over on this district.

[26:29]

And my brother-in-law and I went out to my car to get something. And you know, the streets, a lot of homeless people there. And I was opening the trunk of my car and these people asking for money or something. So I gave this guy something. He wanted something. So anyway, that's the way things happen. That's how I relate to people. So, without picking and choosing, how did you get married?

[28:06]

To one person. Don't think, don't think. It's sad. Picking and choosing is a good thing. Well, that's an interesting question. Because I was, I had had a lot of girlfriends, but there was always some, well, I got married twice, so it's a longer story. So, I really loved both of them.

[29:15]

But the last one, the first one I felt a real affinity with. I didn't have to choose and pick, it just was an affinity. It was just like, you know, somebody just serves up a meal and you eat it. So the second one was I really appreciated my wife's intelligence and her ability to take care of things. Usually I would fall in love with a girl who was beautiful and charming and all this stuff. Which doesn't mean... She had something more than that. Something more than that. So it wasn't a matter of choosing. It was just a matter of things falling into place.

[30:17]

Good. It just came to my mind, we talk a lot about picking and choosing, and it puzzles me sometimes to consider moving beyond that, but it occurs to me, is there a difference between picking and choosing and discerning? Or discernment? Of course, we're picking and choosing all the time. That's our life. That's why we're talking about it. Because it's what our life is about. It's choosing, picking and choosing. The question is, on what basis are we picking and choosing? Are we picking and choosing on the basis of self-centeredness, or are we picking and choosing on the basis of Buddha-centric? So, big mind, here we go again, magnanimous mind, you know,

[31:21]

Are we picking and choosing on the basis of non-selfishness, or are we choosing on the basis of selfishness? Selfishness is also a human characteristic, which is necessary. You have to understand that. It doesn't mean that picking and choosing is bad. It simply means that if we don't picking and choosing, we get into trouble. So when our picking and choosing creates karma, then we suffer. When our picking and choosing are based on unselfishness, that's called the great way. I have trouble sometimes knowing what place my picking and choosing is coming from, but what you just said, points me in the direction of looking at the result of the choice. Yes.

[32:22]

You always have to look at the results of the choice. Where is this leading? Where is this going? Yes. That's what it's about. Not like, stop picking and choosing. If you stop picking, well, I mean, there is a kind of not picking and choosing. If you go to Tassajara, if you go to the monastery, you stop picking and choosing, basically. bell rings, and you just do what you're supposed to do. But you signed on. Sometimes people say, isn't that what I signed up for? As soon as it gets hard, you know, isn't that what I signed up for? Yes, you did. So yes, so be careful what you sign up for. So we change moment by moment. So in a sense, there's no right or wrong in each moment.

[33:31]

Well, okay. So with regard to your two marriages, someone would say, oh, that first marriage didn't work out. Well, it worked out for for what had to get worked out, so to speak. So we changed, and so the early MEL, that was the response, and then the later SOGEN was the response. So what's the same? The same, there's a, Difference, personality in response to Blake's question, picking and choosing and preferences and all that. But what's the same throughout your 90 years? The same throughout the 90 years is that everything is changing. That's the only thing that's not changing. Thank you. Everything is changing. Too smart.

[34:33]

It's true. In relationship, relationships look like they're the same but they're changing every day. Every day is a different relationship, different aspect of your relationship. With the other person. With the other person. That's right. And so you have to keep alert as to what those changes are and adjust to them. And that's what all relationships are like. And that's one reason why we have so much trouble, is that, gee, that wonderful New Yorker cartoon. In the meal chants over yesterday, the last time we heard from you, we went through the meal chants, and in the homages that we do, I find myself stumbling on the Mahayana Pundarika Sutra.

[36:08]

And I just don't know why, but I'd like to hear a little bit about what that sutra, what's up with that sutra. In the short, that sutra is about why a Buddha comes into the world. The reason why a Buddha comes into the world is basically what the Saddharmapundarika Sutra is about. But I'm glad that you mentioned that because I wanted to talk about dharmakaya vairajyana buddha, and sambhogakaya lojjana buddha, and the dharmamakaya shakti buddha, because that's, it's not just words. It's like, and I do talk about this, So very few people remember what that's about. But it's important. Now I don't have two tongues. I'll do a short version. Kind of a three in one. Three in one.

[37:09]

Master Hung Gyur says, three bodies lie down in one bed. Buddha, I mean, Dharmakaya, Vairochana Buddha, Sambhogakaya, Lochana Buddha, Nirmanakaya, Shakyamuni Buddha. Those are the three bodies. in Zen practice when we talk about stuff like, Zen of course has no particular sutra or dharma teaching other than what's happening right now.

[38:37]

So why are we trying to, in other usual Buddhist teachings, these Vajracana, Vajracana, Vajrasattva, they all have very broad meanings. But in our practice, they're about these three Buddhas, and the Buddhas of our own self. Yogacara school emphasized Varocana Buddha. Varocana takes the place of a deity, basically. Because Varocana sits in the center of the universe and emanates light, which lights up the whole universe, the light of the universe.

[39:46]

He sits in the, or she, he, she sits in the center of the mandala. So the Tibetans have wonderful mandalas, but Maro Chan is sitting in the middle, in the center of the universe. Here's the center of the universe right here. Lochana Buddha means Namitābha. Namitābha leads people, leads practitioners to the pure land. Sixth ancestor of Zen says, Pure land is where you reside, which is often covered up with karma.

[41:08]

When you eliminate the karma, there's the pure land. It's not someplace in the West. This is the West. East and West are used in Zen as metaphors, not directions. And Maitreya, no not Maitreya, Nirmanakaya, Shakyamuni, we all know something about Shakyamuni, but each one of us is Shakyamuni. That's the meaning here. It's not some Shakyamuni 2500 years, 100 years ago. He was a practitioner of Shakyamuni Buddha. are essence of mind. Essence of mind is the way, according to my understanding, the Chinese talk about tamakaya. And some, nirmanakaya, is the,

[42:18]

We think, in order to access dharmakaya, which is big mind, basically, essence of mind, beyond consciousness, but includes everything and cannot be described, in order to access dharmakaya, or essence of mind, which is where we should always abide, the axis is Sambhogakaya. Sambhogakaya stands in between Dharmakaya and Armanakaya. So when Sambhogakaya is totally open, when we think about what is Buddha, we usually think about Sambhogakaya.

[43:32]

because Sambhogakaya is Buddha's wisdom. Dharmakaya is Buddha's essence. Sambhogakaya is Buddha's wisdom. In other words, practice, or study, or what we do when we come to the Zen Dome. That's Sambhogakaya. So Sambhogakaya opens opens dharmakaya to nirmanakaya. Nirmanakaya is the Buddha who walks and talks and practices. So the light of dharmakaya is expressed through sambhogakaya to nirmanakaya. So nirmanakaya is expressing Buddha's light through practice. It's beautiful. It's just beautiful. So that's what we practice.

[44:37]

I'm wondering about the pairing. Why is dharmakaya paired with baharachana, for instance? Oh, because baharachana is the personification sitting in the center of the universe, expressing life. So dharmakaya Does that make sense? Sure. Sure? Are you sure? Are you sure? I'm not sure. Are there two names, like Lori Sanaki? Or is there a Dharmakaya without the Vajrachana, or a Vajrachana without the Dharmakaya? Well, it's not that... No, actually... To be effective, there are three. I meant the two names of each one. Each one has two names. Well, yes. Dharmakaya is expressed as Vanavachana. Sambhogakaya is expressed as Vachanapura.

[45:44]

And Nirmanakaya is expressed as Shakyamuni. Yeah, that makes sense. I've always wondered what the origin of that chant is, because when I look up these terms individually, I never see the connection. Right, because it's rarely expressed. It's expressed mostly in Zen. And in the Platform Sutra, you can find it in two places in the Platform Sutra. Page 74. And page 100. But it's also, you know, goes deeper than, this is just the configuration.

[46:57]

the actual how it all works out in practice and realization is another step because it's related to the four wisdoms and the eight levels of consciousness and the three bodies and how they work together as one body. It's just your body, it's just the way your mind works. I was thinking of a simple explanation to make it easy to understand. The dharmakaya is the kitchen where the food is made, where the nourishment comes from. The nourishment comes from Bharatana.

[48:00]

That's the essence of nourishment. And the Sambhogakaya is the servers who are distributing the food. And the Dharmanakaya are those people who open their bowls and eat the food, which is created in the kitchen of Dharmakaya and distributed and by the Sambhogakaya and eaten. The nourishment is eaten by the Madhukaya, Sambhogakaya and Madhukaya. So that should be simple. As a matter of fact, that's the way everything works. So that's what we're doing here. I just come here to eat. Sergeant, Maro Chana and Lo Chana and Shakyamuni.

[49:12]

Shakyamuni, we know, was a real person. These other two, were they real buddhas at any point? No. Shakyamuni embodied. This is Shakyamuni's embodiment. Right. Don't think of it as three people. No, I know. I just, out of curiosity, I'm usually Shakyamuni is the person, the only one. The other two are attributes. Shakyamuni is the attribute of Dharmakaya and Sanlokakaya. You are the attribute of your mother and father. That's it. Who are the seven Buddhas before Buddha then? Well, there are more than seven. Seven only stands for a numeral.

[50:13]

Oh. Yeah, and there's a sutra that has the names. Not all of them, but, you know, I don't know, I can't remember exactly how many, maybe 150 Buddhas in the past. So the seven Buddhas from the past just means there were a lot of them before Shakyamuni. That's all it means. But we give them names and attributes. Some people do that. Yeah. Can you say minus eight? No. Okay. But you would think that somebody behaved a certain way to be attributed to these characteristics that we're talking about. You know what I mean? You would think that there was a person. Yeah. Everybody has that potential. This is the potential of it. This is human potential. Potentiality.

[51:17]

And it describes the epitome of the past. Of the great way. The great way without knowing how to make correct discriminations. Just to speak, if you're thinking of Vairochana and Lochana as I was, my understanding is that in other traditions, those are sort of like deities that are depicted in art and maybe done devotional practice to. But so we borrow their names and their imagery from this other tradition. But in our tradition, they're just parts of the self. That's so true. Yes. Right. I'm looking at it maybe from, you know, like the Christian tradition, maybe Christ or Moses or, you know, they may have been fictitious, they may never have existed really, but they, we give them, what do you call it, personification of them in some way, and we've done that with, well especially

[52:31]

Especially Gaurachana because the Buddha is shown in this imagery, in this mandala, right? Yes, but that's just an image. There's mythology and present reality. So then we take the mythology and strip it as a mythology and see it as embodiment in each one of us. I get it, I get it. Where is he? Or she? I think I'm just saying, like, I would... Never mind. Anyway, this is the thing about it that distinguishes Zen practice from other practices, is that we borrow all this stuff, all this mythology, and instead of, you know, and make it real, present. instead of just ideation, ideology.

[53:36]

So it takes the, like the Sixth Ancestor's Platform Sutra takes this mythology and ideology and personalizes it. So he says, Dharmakaya is your essence of mind, Sambhogakaya is your wisdom. Nirmanakaya is your activities. What could be simpler than that? And more immediate. So Zen is about immediacy. So if I was a good teacher, I would walk up to you and give you a little water. Too bad! I'll be over in your office.

[54:23]

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