I vow to taste the drip of love to talk in tongues of words. I was thinking when we were doing Zazen, how nice it is to I enjoy giving a lecture every Saturday. Sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's hard, but I always enjoy being with everybody, and you allow me to say something that's on my mind, and sometimes it's a monologue, sometimes it's a dialogue, and sometimes it's a free-for-all. That's not so often. That's pretty good when it is, but not so often. But I have many things on my mind about our practice.

[01:07]

We've been lately discussing forms of our practice, talking about the schedule, talking about what it means to have priests at the Zen Center, and All this review, I think, is very good and very necessary. So I have scattered, little bits of scattered things in my mind, each one of which I want to talk about. I think the thing that is in the forefront of my mind is about what is a priest. What does it mean to, again, take up this subject, what does it mean to have a priest's practice in this, in our sangha?

[02:20]

I know that we have various ideas about what that means. But I want to say something about it. We see priests in various ways, in various positions, and so forth. And when we started, when Suzuki Roshi started ordaining people, it was a little bit unclear as to whether to call those people priests or monks. Priests didn't really fit, because priest supposes some kind of position, whereas monks didn't quite fit either, because not all the ordained people would be in a monastery. So, monk is a kind of, is a Western term, and we try to fit

[03:25]

various categories into Western terms, and then we start thinking in those terms. But they don't necessarily fit. And what an ordained person is, is not really a priest, not really a monk exactly, but those terms do have some meaning in there, but they're not absolutely so. When a person is ordained, Japanese, in Japan, they're called an Utsuri. An Utsuri means a left home person. Someone, and it means clouds and water. Clouds, if you look at clouds, maybe you can see castles or animals or something in a cloud.

[04:29]

But you look at a cloud and say, well, pretty soon it'll change into something else. Clouds are rather unreal and they are drifting, you know, coming and going, taking some kind of shape according to the wind, according to conditions. And water is the truth. If you've ever tried to fix a leaky pipe, you know that water is the truth. You may say, well, I'll try this, you know, and maybe that'll work. You know, you twist the fixture. Yeah, let's turn it on. Turn it on. Still leaking. Too much gravity involved. gravity and pressure and just the facts of life. So, water always seeks the lowest spot.

[05:37]

If you let it go, it goes all the way down to the bottom where it can't go any further. This unsui, to be an unsui means you just give up name, fame, worldly ambition, and devote your life to seeking the truth, like clouds in the water. So, sometimes you have a position, an unsui, after training and learning how to be an unsui, will find some position in the realm of the Dharma world. Even the Dharma world, unfortunately, fortunately also turns into the desire world.

[06:48]

The dharma world eventually turns into the desire world. As an unsuli, you train completely divorced from the world of desire. If you go to a good strict monastery, everything is taken away from you, any kind of desire. And you live in a world of no desire. When I mean no desire, I mean Your life is so busy just taking care of dharma affairs that you have no way of dealing with self-interest. And although unsuis have a very difficult time, maybe the hardest time of their life, they actually lead a very pure life, so to speak. And the Dharma shines through them.

[07:53]

The truth really comes forth. But you can't live that kind of life, you know, constantly. And it's a training. So there's some kind of training for it, isn't there? And then eventually you enter the desire realm again, the world at large. You practice being an unsui in the world at large. Say a unsui will become a priest of a temple and take care of lay person's practice. Help lay people to practice. Or maybe stay in the monastery and train monks. and develop, learn how to develop a true life in the world, but as a monk, priest, unsui, whatever you call it.

[09:07]

So when that person has a position, you can say, well, they're a priest. If they stay in a monastery, kind of monastic life, they're a monk. That's our term. But A person who is ordained should always be an unsui. At the bottom of it, a person should always be an unsui. And that's, you know, part of what Suzuki Roshi was talking about when he said, beginner's mind. Same thing. Beginner's mind. No matter how much you know, no matter how far advanced you are, no matter what your responsibilities are, no matter how famous you get, Always unsui. Always have beginner's mind. So, the most important thing is beginner's mind, or, if you're an ordained person, to be unsui. And just always practice that way.

[10:10]

So, if someone becomes ordained, feeling of that ordination, or the intention in that ordination, is to be unsui, just devoting yourself to Dharma, however it is. And depending on where you are, the circumstances of where you are determine how you do it. So if you take a vow to become unsui, ordained person, it means that you join with all the other ordained persons in having nothing at all. And that's your commonality. You become ordained into this order of people who really have nothing.

[11:22]

And the first priority of your life is to realize that. It has nothing to do with any position anywhere. Now, as it turns out, priesthood can either enhance a practice or ruin it. In Japan, the priesthood in some ways has contributed to the decline of Buddhism. That's true. I think that in some ways the priesthood has contributed to the decline of Buddhism.

[12:29]

But on the other hand, without the priesthood there would be no Buddhism, really, that lasted more than a generation or two. And on the other hand, the priesthood is what creates the conditions for practice, helps to create and maintain practice. So it has both sides, you know. One side is the support side and the other side is be careful or you'll ruin it. And the nature of human beings is when you have a pie, you put your foot in it. You know, it's true. If you look at our world, we build these big cities, beautiful big cities, and then we aim our guns at them and shoot them down. It's just human nature, you know. And it exists in every endeavor.

[13:34]

So it also exists within the order of ordained people. So we have to be very careful about, not so much about who is ordained, but about when someone is ordained, they understand the nature of what they're doing, what they're taking on. Now, lay ordination is also ordination. And I think it's taken more lightly, but I don't think it should be taken so lightly. If someone has lay ordination, it's not exactly unsui, but The feeling is really the same. In our order, lay people and unsui take the same precepts, except that unsui shave their head and wear dharma robes as their clothes, and should provide a living example of dharma.

[14:55]

But sometimes you look at a unsui and you say, well, that person doesn't look like they're providing a good example of dharma. And that's true. But on the other hand, sometimes you look at one and you say, gee, that's really a good example of dharma. But whichever way it goes, that person, by taking those vows, puts himself in a position to find the way. So it's important. That's why it's important to have some training. If you have some training, as an unsui, at least you have much more chance of doing something with it. If you don't have any training, you know, then you just kind of go your own way and try, you know, well maybe

[15:59]

No one's telling me this, or no one's telling me that. I'll just kind of do what I want. But you get lost that way. So in some sense, there's not a lot of difference between... Let me say this. Instead of saying not a lot of difference, I'll say there's a real correlation between lay ordination and unsui ordination. In many ways it's the same, and a unsui practices as an unsui, and a lay person who has lay ordination, jikai, practices in the same way as a lay person, with the same intention, but as a lay person. In other words, within the world, taking on worldly pursuits, but with the attitude of an ordained person.

[17:14]

And in that way, each person has to find out what they're doing, and find their own way. Each one of us has to find our own way. But in our particular order, unsui, where the kind of gray area is, is that unsui can also be married and have a family. And that, you know, you might say, well, why then be ordained? In unsui, you can be ordained as a layperson. But I think the difference is that when you become ordained as an unsui, it's a deeper commitment.

[18:20]

Which doesn't mean that lay ordination is not as deep a commitment, or can be, but Lung Sui ordination, you feel a very deep commitment. I mean, no matter what kind of problems, trials, and tribulations or success you have in your career, you deal with all those things without giving up. It means that you go forward without ever giving up. You may give up, but then you get back on your feet.

[19:27]

So it's that kind of commitment. It's like no matter what happens to me, No matter how hard the wind blows, no matter how many doubts I have, no matter what happens, I just go forward. And with that kind of attitude, you can find your way through anything. And believe me, there are many obstacles. Many obstacles, really big obstacles, in which you may feel, you know, why did I do this? How did I get into this? But, well, you look for the truth in each situation. Find the reality in each situation.

[20:30]

So you should be prepared to do that. when you have that ordination. So you very carefully think about that before you have that kind of ordination. And then you should take care of yourself. It's hard to take care of ourselves completely in the way we want to. We have our past karma and we have various delightful temptations which are always drawing us, hard to get rid of. So, you know, in Japan, Japanese, a lot of the Japanese monks were very lax in their practice.

[21:33]

And in Japan, people really drink a lot. You know, the whole populace is the men. The women probably drink in secret, but the men all get together and drink a lot. And it's also common for priests to drink a lot, too. So when Japanese priests came to America, a lot of them really drank a lot. And Suzuki Roshi didn't drink. He would go to a party and he had one glass of champagne in order to be present at the party and not to insult the hostess. They had one glass of champagne and that was it. But he didn't approve of monks drinking or even smoking. And they all smoked. Everybody smoked in those early days. But interestingly enough, there was a time when everybody at Zen Center, in San Francisco Zen Center, Tassajara Zen Center, all gave up smoking.

[22:51]

And in the beginning, everybody smoked. And all the Japanese priests smoked. And then everybody gave it up. And then when things got tough again, people started smoking again. But I remember Tatsugami Roshi, who was, when I was shuso at Tassahara, he was my teacher. And he was the ino of Eheji for 10 years. And Eheji was very tough, but he also drank a lot in Japan, and smoked. And when he came to Zen Center, when he came to Tassahara, He gave up drinking. He said, when I come to America, I won't drink. Which is very good, actually. It's very good of him to do that. Because I know that he liked to drink, and he loved to smoke. And at that time, everybody was smoking. Not everybody, but a lot of people. And I was smoking at that time, too.

[23:52]

And we used to sit in his cabin and just smoke. He had this wonderful hibachi, and a little pipe About this long, you know the little opium pipes? It looked like, we called them opium pipes. And he'd take a little bit of tobacco, shredded tobacco, and put it in there. And then he'd take a coal from the hibachi and light the pipe. And it was, he'd take one puff, you know. That kind of smoke. It's interesting. We always think of, when we smoke, we smoke a lot. A whole cigarette or a whole pipeful or something, but This is just one or two puffs. Very elegant, actually, way to smoke. But when he wasn't doing that, he was also smoking two or three packs of cigarettes a day. He was smoking everything. But anyway, you know, that kind of behavior was in some way taken for granted among priests in Japan.

[24:57]

I think in America, you know, we have to kind of rediscover, you know, what we're doing. And in some way we take their example, but in some way we should not. And right now we don't really have very many Japanese priests as examples. Almost none, you know, anymore. In my day, that's all we had were Japanese priests as examples. Suzuki Roshi, Katagiri Roshi. These are my examples. And Suzuki Roshi was very good. I mean, he was very clean. He didn't fool around with women, and he didn't drink, and he didn't smoke. And he was very kind, compassionate, and strict at the same time. Katagiri Roshi was smoking too, I remember, when he first came over, and then he stopped.

[26:07]

So that was good influence on people. Somehow, we have to have some code of behavior for priests, unsuites. Otherwise, there's no way to set an example for either ourselves or for others in how to take care of yourself, or how to live in a way that is conducive to practice. So once we have to set that tone, it doesn't have to have any special position.

[27:11]

It doesn't have to be anybody in particular, you know, no special name or fame or position, but just hang around. You know, you go to Zazen and you study and you learn how to do the things that take care of that. And you help people to do it. And you cultivate your life. That's the main thing about being unsui. It's that you take care of your life and you help other people take care of their lives. So, If you're a unsui and you're married, then you take care of your family, and you take care of other people. But you do it in a way that really feels like you're promoting the Dharma.

[28:24]

And you have to find out how to do that. You can have some rules, The rules only help to keep you, you know, a guideline. You have to figure out how to do it. Everybody has to figure out their own way within the parameters of the Dharma. But if you don't have some guideline, if you don't have something to work with, then you're just kind of lost. So, the same goes for everybody's practice. We don't have some kind of guidelines, some way of knowing how to practice. You just do anything. There's no guidance.

[29:31]

This particular zendo, my feeling about this, our way of practicing here, is that it's really open to everyone. Even though not everybody may not think so, but it's true. It's open to everyone. That doesn't mean that everyone can do it. I think those are two different sides. The zendo is open to everyone, the practice is open to everyone. But not everyone is capable of practicing. Some people are not capable of practicing because they're not, they're too, they have too many worries, too many problems, emotional problems, or physical problems, or mental problems. You have to have a certain level of capability.

[30:37]

A certain level of capability. You have to be able to do something in order to practice. And you have to be able to get up, be in a certain condition to do it. And that's limiting. And I don't like that. I think none of us likes that, but it's so. If someone is too emotionally disturbed, and they want to, and they come into here, then quite often their problem is so big that all you can do is focus on that. You know, you can't really focus on what we're doing, because that person takes so much attention from everyone. And the same with a mental problem. Physical problems are actually easier to deal with. That's the smallest problem.

[31:38]

A person can come to a lecture, or they can just be in the Zen, though, if they have a physical problem. But mental and emotional problems are really difficult, if they're too great. But, you can go out to people. There's a way of practicing with people, by going out to them. People have mental problems, then you go out to those people, or emotional problems. Through your practice, you should be able to help people in that way. Hopefully. But There are many... The door is open.

[32:43]

The door is always open to everyone. And if there are unsui practicing here, It only works if we don't feel that someone is on a higher level than somebody else. Hierarchy always exists naturally, but there's no reason to make it into something. When you start making hierarchy into something, when you use the natural hierarchy that exists and make that into something, then you have a problem. It's just like the thoughts in our mind exist during zazen.

[33:45]

You can't really say they don't, but when you don't start building on them, it's no problem. And in the same way, if you start creating divisions and hierarchies and promoting hierarchies, then you have problems. But hierarchy exists, you know. You can't get away from it. Just the fact that one person is older than somebody else is already natural hierarchy. Of course, we're all equal, horizontally. But vertically, someone is above someone else in some way and someone is below someone else in some way. It's not good or bad. It's not good or bad. It's just every person and thing has its position. What is that position in relation to everything else?

[34:51]

That's natural hierarchy. And if we don't recognize natural hierarchies, then we miss something. But to create hierarchies for purposes of self-indulgence or self-gratification or ego, then you have a big problem. So in some way our practice here is It includes sensual practice, it includes lay practice, it includes casual practice, it includes hard practice, whatever.

[35:58]

And one of the things about it that's disturbing to people to a lot of people, but it's also quite wonderful is the fact that there's some definition that's not there. It's real hard, you know, if you have definition, then you kind of know what you're doing. And you include something and exclude something. But if you don't have too much definition, then you include a lot more. But it's easier to get confused. And I've always been quite willing to allow for confusion.

[37:05]

I think our practice exists in confusion. And confusion is not necessarily so bad. But it's easier when you make definitions. It's this way or it's that way. So, I don't know, I'm kind of caught by that. I don't want to impose things on people. When it comes to imposing, kind of break down. But behind that, sometimes, I really want to. I really want to say, you should do this. You should practice like that. I don't want to hear what your excuses are. I really feel that way. But I always say, well, OK. I always give it in to you, frankly. I don't know if that's good because, you know, I want you to like me.

[38:14]

Maybe that's it. But my real feeling is divided. I want you to like me, you know, and I want to show you I understand your problems. I understand what you're putting up with, you know. Do what you like. But the other side of me says, Look, you know, if you don't do it this way, it doesn't mean anything. But I usually give in. So, it's a little confusing. And I think it's confusing to... I'm not sure that I do you such a service that way. But that's the way I am. But I really think that in many ways it's better to be clear about what I think that our practice is about and how I communicate that to you and how I feel that we should practice.

[39:40]

See, if you start making things very clear, then you have a few people who will be practicing. And if you really allow a lot of leeway with people, it helps a lot of people. See if you can kind of decide whether you want to be with a few people who are doing something in a very clear-cut way, or a lot of people who are doing something. opening practice to a lot of people. So I think that's kind of where I'm hung up. One way I'm hung up. I'm hung up in several ways, but that way I'm kind of hung up. But my feeling, as I say, about this place is that my practice is to just be here, whether you're here or not.

[41:06]

You may complain about it, if you're not, but to just be here. And every day I get up and sit sadhana, and there's some people who I feel do that with me, and I do that with them. And we have a wonderful kind of shared practice. And we support each other. And that nucleus is the center of our practice. And then everybody can come and relate to our practice, you know, in various ways, depending on their own life. And so that way we have a big space, you know, to practice in. And somebody can come to Zazen once a year, somebody can come once a week, come every day, you know, you can participate any way you want. You can take responsibility.

[42:10]

But the strong nucleus in the center is very important. The stronger that is, the stronger the practice will be for everybody, no matter what your sense of participation is. And if you are an unsui, that's what I would expect your participation to be, is to really be part of that nucleus. and to try and understand what Zazen is and really put yourself there as a real priority of your life. You can stop being an unsweet.

[43:22]

If you get ordained, you can stop. You can say, OK, I've had it. That's OK. That's very clear. No problem. But, while you are, then, that's what I would expect of you. Do you have a question? I agree with you. It would be nice to know the side of what we think that we should do. Those with whom I suspect that is there to keep looking forward to. And the other thing I wonder is, is there so much of a tradition of Japanese priests finding escapes from liquorism? Is this a necessary part? I mean, is this necessary to have some kind of escape to?

[44:26]

deal with strict type of practice? That's a good point. You know, I think that what happens is that if your life becomes real strict over here, then you're leaving out something over here, right? And some people can just take on a real strict life. Not so many, though. Some people can do it, not so many. And you have to be very careful. In the old, you know, if you're in the strict sense of being a monk, you take 250 precepts and you live a life, you're a man. I'm not talking about nuns, I'm just talking about monks, which means that you don't come into contact with anything that's going to cause you to break the precepts.

[45:31]

Which means that you don't, not only do you not touch, if you're a man, you don't touch women, you don't even look at them. You know? If you talk to them, you turn some other way, you know? So that doesn't become a possibility for you to break those precepts. So you have to decide, you know, to live a certain life, you just cut that off. But, you know, the problem is the Theravada monks, who, I don't like to say this, I'm not saying this as a put-down, but they look very strict, but actually they are always speaking out and doing various things, which are not in accord with the precepts. So if you're going to have that tight of precepts, then either have to live a life away from temptation or else modify your life so that you can actually live within precepts that you can live with, right?

[46:39]

So, our particular precepts are not so... we only have 16 and we only have 10 prohibitory precepts as against 250, you know. So, already, That's pretty good. But, you know, what do we need? Say, in a monastery, you really can do a lot without getting... If you really conform to the life of the monastery, you can do without sex, and you can do without drinking, and you can do without all those things, you know. But when you get into the city and everybody's doing stuff, you know, it's really... hard to maintain a very strict set of precepts for yourself, especially if you're not with other people who are doing that. So there has to be some allowance. What kind of recreation can you have?

[47:41]

I think that when you get into a position of being a teacher in a place, say like this, or a bigger place, there's a lot of pressure from all sides. You know, you have pressure from your students, you have pressure from expectations, and you have, you know, just all sides. You have expectations and pressures. And, you know, you have your mail to deal with, you have to write letters and read stuff that comes, you know, and take care of a million things. And sometimes you just want to, if you just feel, you know, sit down and not do anything, go for a walk, drive the car, you know? That's the way I feel sometimes. Just drive the car, listen to the radio. But, you know, I can see, you know, how somebody like... And if you have all these temptations around you, you just say, you know, you just fall into those, because

[48:52]

It's the easiest thing to do. It's really hard when everybody's doing stuff around you, to not do anything. Unless you have to be really strong to do that. And it's not necessarily helpful to all the people around you, because it's so different than what they're doing. But there has to be some way of finding some ease, you know, in human terms, for a priest, you know? And it has to be reasonable. So, in our tradition, priests can be married. That's one. But, you know, everything that's a relief is also a problem. That's a problem, actually. You know, whatever is a relief is also a problem. If you think that drinking is a relief, it also is a big problem.

[49:58]

It's more of a problem than it is a relief, as a matter of fact. But to have a drink is okay. That's why we say at the precept, don't take liquor. Don't sell it or don't take it. We're intoxicants. But it's okay to have a drink sometimes. If you're too unyielding, then you get into, not everybody, but most everybody, if you're too unyielding, you get too stiff and brittle, and something will come along and break you. But if you know how to yield a little bit, how to bend with things, how to take a little relaxation, how to take a drink, you know, how to put your arms around somebody, you know, how to show affection and actually do it, you know, be affectionate, so forth, then you can move with things, move with people, you know, and not get broken because you're more like a blade of grass than a piece of peanut brittle.

[51:13]

You don't shatter when something hits, you know. lay the grass, you get banned and then when it's over you come back up. So, you have to be strict and at the same time be soft. You have to know how to be soft and how to move with things. How to be able to joke with somebody, even though you don't feel like joking. How to be able to take a drink, even though you may not feel like taking a drink. How to be affectionate, put your arms around somebody without being seduced or seducing. And then there are the teachers who are involved in what I would call addictive behavior, which is like going to another extreme, to the point of being alcoholic, or being involved in sexual relations with students, to the point of being compulsive about it.

[52:41]

And at the same time, these are teachers who clearly have a high degree of realization. Well, my feeling about it is this, that we think so-and-so is enlightened, and if they're enlightened, they shouldn't be like that. Right? I'd like to think of the Erechonsqui, as an example, that there would be some sense, even if they weren't thoroughly enlightened, that they had some sense that there were boundaries or limits.

[53:48]

See, it's like, it goes all the way back to the beginning. If you look at the arhat, you know, arhat, what the last thing, you know, the last barrier of the arhat is pride or arrogance. And it's the same with Zen teachings. Of course, they have a great deal of enlightenment, but if you tell me that someone is thoroughly enlightened without any doubt or any delusion, I won't believe you. I think that's our problem. Everybody is at a certain place, and the people Someone's here, can help people here, but needs somebody up here, you know?

[54:56]

And so there's always somebody above us, there's always a natural hierarchy. There's always somebody above us and somebody below us. If we think there's nobody above us, then we're totally deluded, you know? And this was a big problem with some teachers, Now I'm it. There's nobody above me. Nothing, not only nobody above me, but nothing higher than me in this universe. I mean, that's real, way out of delusion, you know? So, enlightenment is knowing you're an unsweet all the time. That's the mark of enlightenment. And Suzuki Roshi had that. And as far as I'm concerned, that's the only thing that he ever had to offer. Not the only thing, but the main thing he had to offer.

[55:59]

I see. Well, the other thing I want to say is that sense of unscreening, difference between unscreening and layperson. If you look at the history of what unscreened was, even in Japan, as you know, girls wouldn't get married. Right, that's right. So that really was a distinguishing mark. And the layperson practices, in our culture, laypeople have has moved toward the lay person, the lay person from the industry.

[57:10]

So in some ways this thing is not so clear cut. Not clear. And that's what we're dealing with. And we can either say, well, let's just divide it. Or we can say, let's continue struggling with it and finding out, dealing with it, I mean, and finding out what what it comes out to be. And that's what we're doing, actually. We're planning out what it comes out to be. The unsweetened really is the formless in the way that we talk about it. The unsweetened needn't be restricted to the form of a monk, in terms of the robes or in their function, to really be that fluid, to move into society and whatnot. Right. Being visible in some kind of way. That's actually two sides. One is the visible side and the other is the invisible side. And to me, that's real important to me.

[58:15]

And that is actually what I practice about. We have the visible side and the invisible side. So that's where monks, so-called priest practice and lay practice, meet? Well, it seems that the common element is practice. The common element is practice. Because, I mean, what happens with religion is that over time the unessential and the essential sort of get confused and what is essential becomes unessential and vice versa. So it seems that the most important thing is the continuous commitment to practice. And whether you do that in the form of a monk who are in the form of layperson, it's secondary. The primary thing, the essential thing is the commitment to continuous practice. Yes, that's right.

[59:16]

I agree with that. Yes. Yeah. As you know, I've been practicing for all these years by choice. If I want to sleep with a woman, I don't have to answer to anybody. And I've taken myself away from it. If I wanted to go and get drunk, I didn't need to excuse myself. And I got together with people like Joy Mink, who displayed a lot of the spirit that I appreciate in song. but they weren't wearing anything or excusing themselves for trying to be an example of anyone. They were just simply doing what they enjoyed doing. And I derive a tremendous amount of pleasure from that. But as the years went on, I needed more of what this has to offer, because it's more confidence-deep.

[60:23]

It's a garden that the roots go much deeper. And in it, I'm having a difficult time. The very thing I didn't want middle of us, students looking for somebody to lean on, examples. I don't like anybody looking at me as an example. Not because I feel I couldn't be one, but because it weakens their practice. It comes from themselves. I understand that we look at the outside world to reflect what we, in our ideal, hold to be important. True? I think that it's not a good idea to walk around and say, I'm an example. I don't think that's a good idea. I think the thing to do is to just do your own practice the best you can. And then you don't think I'm an example or I'm not an example. The main thing is to be an example to yourself.

[61:28]

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