An unsurpassed penetrating and perfect dharma is rarely met with even a hundred thousand million kalpas, adding it to see and listen to, to remember and accept to everyone online and everyone here in the Zendo on this warm sunny Saturday morning. When I first came to BCC the very first time I came was for Zazen instruction and on a Saturday in 1991 and the Zazen instructor was Ross Blum

[01:07]

our speaker today and Ross is just as warm and friendly and encouraging now as he was then to all who come through the gate. Ross started Zen practice in New York with Bernie Glassman and it was there that he received lay ordination He came here to Berkeley Zen Center in the late 80s, specifically to study and practice with Sojin Roshi. Sojin gave him lay entrustment in 2019. Ross has, over the years, probably practiced in every position that we have here, and he now practices as the Eno, the person who oversees the temple, the management of the temple and our forms. He trains douans and fukudos and oversees the douanryo, works closely with the tantos and the abbot.

[02:18]

He also coordinates all of the wayseeking mind and Saturday talks. These are positions in which we can readily see him, but I think that few people know how much he does sort of behind the scenes. all around Berkeley Zen Center. He just sees what needs to be done and responds. He maintains and fixes things small and big and attends to the things that come up like someone not showing up or not being able to work in a position they're supposed to work in. He just does what's right in front of him. And for that reason, I think he's a fine example of Zen practice. Please help me welcome Ross Blum. Thank you, Ross. Thank you very much, Susan. Good morning, everyone, here in the Zendo on Russell Street in Berkeley and online, wherever you happen to be.

[03:27]

A couple of corrections, which is my inclination. Soji Roshi, in his public doka-sama that Blake posted recently, said we don't say corrections anymore, we say adjustments. So I'd like to adjust my friend's delivery of me today, introducing. I wasn't ordained in New York, but I did sew a rakasu there with Bernie Glassman. But I left before ordaining. They didn't set schedules or dates for ordinations. You just sewed and it would be whatever it would be. And it was time for me to leave New York. I was there for three years, and as Susan did say, quite aptly, I came here to study with Sojin Roshi to... live and work at Berkeley Zen Center and support the practice.

[04:34]

I had never been here before, but that's what was my intention. And since 87, that's what I've been doing. The Eno is responsible for the Zendo, that's my understanding. So even though there's a question of where is the Zendo start and where does it end, it kind of extends to the whole universe, but primarily I'm responsible for things in here, training people, fixing things and such. For instance, right above Sherrill, on the west town, there is a Scotts. And as you can see, the little shade is a little funky now. And after 47 years of hanging there, it's warped. So that has to get tended to. So somebody has to do that. And because of my inclinations, I see things.

[05:36]

I don't necessarily fix them. Somebody else might be fixing them. But that's what a lot of my life at Berkeley Vent Center is, is noticing things, seeing if they need some adjustment, talking to people if they want some help with these adjustments, and then carry on from there. And as you might imagine, it's endless, what we do here. we're always returning to breath and posture in our practice. And while we're doing that, we notice things that need to have a little breath of fresh air, perhaps, directed in their way. I'll add that when I came out here, bulletin board sign was actually on the porch. And that sign was a typewritten announcement for an upcoming lay ordination, or jukai.

[06:37]

And there were eight names typed in. And there were magic markers to highlight various aspects of it. It was kind of the old construction paper, cut and paste, grade school kind of decorations. Now we have computers and everything is very slick. The ordination was going to be happening within about a month or so of my arrival. And I asked Socherov, she said, you know, I have a rocket suit. I'd like to be ordained. He didn't know me from Adam or Eve. And he says, well, I have to think about that. I had written him a letter from New York that I was wanting to come out here. And the letter crossed, it went to Virginia while I was driving across the country with my dad to get here. My mother forwarded the letter. So that was our contact. So the next day he said, okay, you can ordain, but you'll have to sew an envelope, a rock and sew envelope. We didn't sew envelopes in New York. So the sewing teacher at the time, Anne Murray, honed in, sewed to his first ordinee as a priest, was a sewing teacher, and she sewed the envelope for me.

[07:47]

And I was the last person in the nine, as the last person who arrived. And I had the good fortune to ordain with our abbot, Hazan Roshi. He was being ordained that same day. Today I would like to talk about objects and altars. I sent out some pictures of the listserv. There are some pictures on the bathroom door and the Zendo porch wall by the entrance of pictures that Irving Penn took back in the 40s of some famous people. I was a photographer for years, doing photojournalism and commercial photography, portrait photography and all that. So I saw this show and I went back three times to see it. I've never done that before. I've also never bought an exhibition catalog or book.

[08:54]

as much art as I've seen over the years, but something compelled me to get this book. So this is what inspired the talk today. So in Irving Penn's words, he says, working with still life is a safe place to start dealing with the world if you're somewhat unsure where you fit in. I believe everybody in this room has had moments of not feeling they fit in and wondering what to do about that. Sir Lee Penn wasn't a Dharma teacher, he was a photographer. Great repute. But the comment really struck me because it reminded me of myself. I was a photographer and I was kind of shy. I hid behind cameras and observed things and took pictures of things. Quite beautiful pictures I like to think. Many of them are. But nevertheless, I wasn't really beating the objects directly.

[09:58]

I was observing, and I was unsure of myself and how I fit in. So I fit in with the camera. Inanimate objects are nice, safe, easy to control, and undisturbing. At a certain point, you feel some strength, or such as you would call it confidence. and want to branch out. And the first thing you know, you're photographing a person. So we're encouraged not to objectify things, including people. How can those objects become subjects so we don't objectify them? Well, an easy way to do that is by respecting them. If we respect something or someone, we tend to have greater reverence for them. Our growing up in conditioning mostly, not always, is objectifying things, and what can I use or make use of, and then just discard it, and then what's the next thing that I need?

[11:11]

That happens with people, too, in our relationships. that treating objects as adamant things, as living things, changes our relationship to them. There's a story of Soju Roshi and Suzuki Roshi at a tea ceremony. I like this story because it demonstrates, or expresses, Mel Weissman, a young Mel Weissman, a couple of years into practice and trying to figure out what this thing is all about. So at a tea ceremony, there are a number of utensils and implements, and one of the implements is a chawan, or tea bowl. And part of the ceremony is observing and appreciating the chawan, the object.

[12:22]

So, in my imagination, in the story, Sojin, okay, it's time for me to appreciate the bowl, or look at the bowl, so, fix it up. He's kind of like we do in the store, you know, at the bottom, where is it made, or maybe feel the texture of it or something or another. But anyway, Sojin's doing this kind of thing, which is what we typically do when we're looking at something. And Suzuki Roshi says, no, this is not what you do. You place the bowl, on the ground where it's steady and you come down to it. Something like this. So this is no longer the object. This is the subject. And when subject and object merge, what's that? Well, In my view, that's enlightenment.

[13:26]

That's awakening where there's no longer self and other in the way we divide things. And the tea bowl is still the tea bowl, and Ross is still Ross. So it's not one and not two, and we have to see both sides. Objects and subjects. The one and the many. So Mr. Penn placed his subjects for these portraits in a wedge-shaped thing. A couple of walls that come back. And so these very famous people that filled the universe with their art, their talents and such, were now forced to be in a confined space, kind of like the display windows in a... Fifth Avenue department store.

[14:28]

Space there, and everything is jammed there, and your attention is drawn in to the thing that is right there. And by doing so, it was twofold. One is, Irving Penn wasn't a famous photographer then. He was just this guy taking pictures for, I think it was Vogue magazine that this assignment was for. And these people back in the 40s, were all super famous and didn't need any introduction, and they just kind of ran the show. So rather than taking a portrait in their studio or in the boxing ring or at their study, he put them in a space where they were alone and without the usual scaffolding and expression that they had at hand to express whatever their thing happened to be. The author of the exhibition book wrote about this experience and says, How each talented and famous person managed their tight corner of reduced circumstances illuminated the existential question in this post-World War II epic.

[15:45]

So the whole world just turned upside down during that war. And a couple years later, people were trying to find their way. Who am I now? What's going on?" And when you're confined in a small space without the usual tools and devices to discover and explore who you are, well, that sounds like Zaset, doesn't it? As Sontor wrote, Freedom is what you do with what's been done to you. Jean-Paul Sander. Freedom is what you do with what's been done to you. And likewise, the Sojan Roshi remarked, it's not so much what happens to you, but how you deal with it. So while the photo session was just

[16:49]

20 minutes, half hour, however long it took. Zazen is continuous. We're in that little space. Trying to let go, trying to accept what comes in, accept what goes out, not judge it. Return to breath and posture and just be present with no embellishments. Because on the cushion, it's horizontal. No matter what your gender, what your race, marital status, livelihood, home or homeless, whatever, we all come together here. And we will reflect on where we want to be. who we are and all the rest of that during zazen. But it doesn't matter because fundamentally we're just this person.

[18:00]

And that's why it's so difficult to say zazen and to accept ourselves because we're dissatisfied with one thing or another about ourselves. Maybe more. Then the bell rings and then here come the embellishments. Here come the flourishes. Here comes the look at me. What do we do with that? Well, we look at it. This is Branching Screams, Suzuki Roshi's commentary on the Sandokai. We have to understand things in two ways. One way is to understand things as interrelated. The other way is to understand ourselves as quite independent from everything.

[19:08]

When we include everything as ourselves, we are completely independent because there is nothing with which to compare ourselves. If there is only one thing, how can you compare anything to it? Because there is nothing to compare yourself to, this is absolute independence. Not interrelated. Absolutely independent. So, Zouji Roshi in the tea bowl. Subject, object. No subject, no object, nothing to compare. Which is more beautiful, soju no shi or the tibo. Just being present and still, we have an experience of intimacy. And along with that comes the hierarchy or the world of diversity,

[20:16]

what's beautiful, what's not beautiful, what's clean, what's not clean, and all that. And there's a place for that too. And how do we balance both sides? How do we take into consideration both sides, the one and the many? Things are okay as they are, and they can use some improvement, like that light over there, and like this person here. So is this very practical, this teaching? The other day, a friend of mine said, do you ever get anxious or fearful, you know, when you have to give a public talk? And I said, no, I don't. The first time I had to give a talk, when I was a Shuso, I bowed to Soji Roshi, who was sitting in the abbot seat before coming over, and he just gave a gentle, little smile, which I inferred was, showtime. You'll be okay. Because when you speak from your heart and from your experience, you can't screw it up.

[21:20]

There can be no debate about it because it's your truth. People may have different truths and different feelings about what's being said, but ultimately it's this person's truth that just expresses themselves honestly, not embellishing, not making it fancified and all that. That's why the plain and ordinary way is the way. because we get to see our true self unadored moment by moment with what we're doing. So, typically the fear of speaking in public is there are all these people here who are maybe judging me, who maybe are distracted, not even present, comparing and contrasting. And if I think of people as separate from me, which we typically do, and there is an aspect of separation, person-person, the hierarchy, the diversity. There's also the oneness of things.

[22:24]

So how do I experience, how can one experience the oneness of things in a room full of people, some of whom I know, many I know, and some I don't? Well, you all are reflections of me. We may not look the same, but we're all reflections of one another. And in the vow to save all sentient beings, six ancestors in Tang China said, save the sentient beings in your own mind. Those are the beings that need saving. And who are those beings in my mind that need saving or to be woken up to? Well, those are the beings of jealousy. of envy, of embellishment, of sadness, of happiness, of accomplishment, of feeling shitty about oneself, feeling amazing about oneself, all those things.

[23:26]

And each one of you, at any given time, are going to feel those same feelings that I feel. So what's the difference? We're all here practicing, and at different places in our emotional life and history, we're at one of those things or another. So we're really no different. So it's one person here talking. There's one person here listening. There's one person here being affected. And around 1115 there's going to be a bell and there's going to be chanting and then I'm going to skadoodle out the epicentrics. And then we'll wonder, well, what just happened? I remember hearing the word crucible for the first time. That's kind of an interesting word.

[24:28]

Crucible. I've never heard of that before. I learned that a crucible is a place or situation in which concentrated forces interact to cause or influence change or development. Crucible is a place or situation in which concentrated forces interact to cause or influence change or development. Well, where's the crucible at? Well, the crucible's here. Yes, a crucible, as an object, appears to be like a little cup or something. things are ground and mixed up and all that. The crucible is us on the cushion, on the chair, on the bench, waiting in line at the grocery store, in our vehicle going to work or to play.

[25:34]

What's being transformed and worked on moment by moment in that concentrated space The concentrated space may be encouraged or created and supported by a narrow container. We have ways of breaking out of that container with our mind. So how do we conform to that narrow container of just this and accepting all of this in this little container on the cushion? on the chair or on the bench. How do we do that? Our suffering typically arises from thinking about the past with happiness or sadness that it's over, or thinking about the future with anticipation or dread. That's not a way to work through it.

[26:38]

The way to work through it is being present now. Now. Now. So we're in a crucible of practice. There's an expression of thinking outside the box, which has its place. It's a very creative opportunity. I was thinking about my friend's recall of Harada Roshi's teaching. And instead of thinking outside the box, I came up with the thought of think not thinking inside the box.

[27:39]

Harada Roshi says after Sashin, take what you learned here out into your daily life. Don't forget. It's such a simple statement. But what did we learn over those five days of sishin? Or for that matter, one period of zazen. Take that out in the world. Don't forget. In the spirit of that crucible and narrow container, tied up cross-legged position that some of us are able to still do. It makes me think of teaching a sojournoshis. He says practice, but I would like to substitute circumstance.

[28:45]

It might be a little bit easier for us to understand the circumstance of life versus practice, which has maybe an abstract sense when we're outside of the zendo. You can't bend the circumstance to fit your idea. You have to soften your mind to fit the circumstance. You have to walk through a small door. It's not up to you to determine how the circumstance goes or unfolds. It's up to you to conform to the circumstance. When you can do that, the practice becomes your own. And when it becomes your own, then there's nothing to compare it to. Circumstance and practice are one. This person and the practice are one. It's just one thing. It's just taking care of the next thing. Easier said than done. Yes.

[29:48]

So we need reminders. When we're growing up, we may have a parent, a grandparent, a guardian, or a teacher somewhere reminding us of the forms that we follow, the customs that we follow in life, in the culture that we were growing up in. But after we grow up at a certain point, even though some of those memories may still bounce around in our head, we need reminders. And one reminder that we have here at Burton Zen Center is the altar. Where is the altar right now? Oh, there it is. It's over here. The first thing that we orient to when we enter the Zendo is the altar. We bow to the altar when we walk in. We walk a few steps in if we're going to be sitting on the right side.

[31:02]

We walk to the back center line with a divider or a little to the left if we're going to sit on the left side. We stop and we bow to the altar. Now why are we doing that? But we're bowing to ourselves. We're bowing to Buddha-nature here, with hope and anticipation and humble request of that it be revealed. The objects on the altar are actually our self. They're aspects of our self. There's wisdom, in the form of prajnaparamita. There's compassion, sculpture of Avilo Kiteshwar, or Quan Yin. And there's my favorite one, Samantabhadra, the shining practice on the elephant, walking slowly, carefully, not rushing around, moment by moment, the shining practice. Hozan and Laurie

[32:10]

daughter, Sylvie, is going to be married later this summer to Cooper. And they will be married at an altar. And that altar may be a table, like the table that we use in the zendo for ordinations and weddings and other ceremonies. Or it must be a sanctified space. But there'll be an ambiance or space there of reverence to pay attention to for them. as their twoness. Cooper and Sylvie become one in this ceremony. That is not unlike our practice of subject and object becoming one. And anybody who's been in a romantic relationship knows it's not one and it's not two, and how to balance those two things at the appropriate time. altars actually are ubiquitous if we look closely.

[33:22]

Right beside Jeremiah, there's a set of boxes that were made by Richard Hayesley, a very devoted practitioner that was here years ago. And those boxes hold the suture books. And those boxes were handmade by Richard. There's an upper box that holds the suture books, and underneath, a smaller box that holds the meal chant cards and other things that we use. For those two boxes to stay together and be upright, they have to fit properly. There's a little tab on the lower box, and the upper box has a hole in it, and it fits in there. If it doesn't fit in there, the top can get knocked off. So that's a lot of mechanics and a lot of things to remember. It seems kind of little nitty-gritty and like, God, so much detail and all that. Well, that's what our practice is about. And if it's all just a bunch of things I've got to do and think and remember, it's not practice.

[34:30]

It's a chore. And a lot of people get turned away from Zen Center or meditation practice, mindfulness practice, because they're having to think too much about getting food on the table for their kids or commuting to work or whatever, all those things that befuddle us and make us anxious and upset and impatient. So, what about those sutra books? What about the box that holds them? And how am I going to retrieve those sutra books out and distribute them to the zendo sangha that's going to be chanting teachings? Well, the form and custom is to bow Do the suture box. Take up the suture box and pass them out. And when returning them, return them and bow. It slows us down and it keeps us in the moment. And bow. And at the base of the bow, which is our most humble position, we meet the so-called other.

[35:36]

Because the other isn't bowing, the other is just there. most stable, lowest position, the bow. Now, if someone's in a hurry to put the box back together after retrieving the bottom chance, it will not meet, and it'll wobble, and it'll get knocked off. And given my proclivities, sitting in the chair opposite that, I notice when it's not centered. And then my practice is, Am I going to get up and straighten it now and make a bunch of noise and be distracted to people, perhaps? Am I going to wait until the end of service and put it together? When will I do that? Well, that's a koan for me. Every time I see that, when am I going to fix that? Can I live, can I be comfortable and at ease with it not being like I want it?

[36:39]

Because all these things come back to me. That's how we learn about ourselves, by following these forms. Junko Beck, a Dharma sister of Bertie Glassman, sees what is purported to have said, She sees where a student is by what they do with their chair when they get up from a table. So it seems pretty simple. I'm like, what does that mean? And what that means is that when you're done with this object of sitting on this chair, what do you do with this object? If it's still an object and my dinner's done, I'm done with it. I'm just going to walk out the door. if this object is still the subject because it supported me during this meal, there's a good chance of picking the chair up, perhaps lifting it off the floor so it doesn't drag and make a bunch of noise, and place it under the table as you found it.

[37:57]

And if you were to do that, compare the feeling in your mind and your body when you do that, versus just, I'm out of here. The saying is then, leaving things better than you found them. There's no shortage of finding things that are not. So how do I leave something better than I found it? What is better, actually? Well, for me, better is leaving it for the next person to be a little bit easier for them to deal with. Do we close the temple gate after we've passed through? Well, I'm done. I'm through. I'm going. I'm going to Zendo now. I'm leaving it open for the next person. Well, where is the next person? They're not there. They can open the gate, finishing, and then continue to do the Zendo. Going out, close the door, going home.

[39:01]

Cutting lights on when you go into a room. Read, watch TV, whatever. I'm leaving the room. Do I leave the lights on? It doesn't cost much anything to leave the lights on. Just leave them on. I'll be back in the room later. How about cutting the lights off when you're not there and in use? Now, admittedly, my dad said, turn the lights off when you leave your room because I don't want to be paying VECO, Virginia Electric and Power Company. Well, that's a practical side. My father grew up in the 20s and 30s, Depression and all that, so there was care and attention for that money. But he had the money. We had the money to leave the lights on, But do we need to use that affluence and be lazy to just go in and go out? Hannah Muir told a story going to Mexico, and she saw her friend cut the water off after soaping up the dishes, washing them, and then cutting the water back on to rinse them. Well, how often do we do that? Oh, there's plenty of water.

[40:04]

Even with a drought, there's plenty of water. Well, try doing that careful attention thing. Just like closing the gate. Right here, not taking anything for granted. Right about where Margo or Doan is sitting, underneath is a crawl space. And when we were creating the heating system for our Zendo, there were a bunch of pipes underneath. And I was under there with Doug Greiner, who orchestrated the project, which is a huge project. And one of the things that is Part of that process was insulating the pipes. The insulation looks like the stuff is on the pipes outside of 1933 and a half on the west side that heats the building there. Doug encouraged me to cover the pipes carefully, even though nobody was going to see them.

[41:07]

But he saw that. Now, the pipes are there to carry hot water, but that's not all they do. They're an altar. They're something that we were orienting toward in careful attention in creating this heating system that we now enjoy. being built outside the gate. The person that orchestrated that told the person that was assisting that we're not building a sidewalk, we're building a relationship.

[42:19]

Samatha Bhadra's practice is about practicing in relationship. other people, other things, and a relationship with ourself. That's what our practice is about, cultivating relationships. Toward the end of Suzuki Roshi's life, people were sensitive around him and careful and deferring to him as would be anyone that is ill. And his student, inadvertently knocked his teacup against a table in some way, in the rush to put it down, or a distraction, whatever it happened to be. I wasn't there. I just read this account. And Suzuki Roshi said, when you take care of the teacup, you take care of me. What's that mean? Nobody owns a teacup, but when the teacup is in

[43:31]

relationship and being held by the person, I'm being taken care of, the teacups being taken care of. It's a mutual relationship. So how do we do that with people? We make eye contact, we hold them in our hearts, we speak with them, we have conversations, and we unpack whatever the differences are between us, seeing what the differences are, and find harmony. In the Nankifatara Sutra, there's a line that says, things are not what they seem, nor are they otherwise. We call it a pipe because it carries hot water. And it is something else.

[44:32]

It's not part of the universe. It is the universe. Putin's Zenji's way is to find the meaning in each thing, like a grain of rice or a cup of water. You may say a cup of water or a grain of rice is something that you see in brightness, but when you pay full respect to the grain of rice, I mean when you actually respect it as you respect Buddha himself, then you will understand that a grain of rice is absolute. When you live completely involved in the dualistic world, you have the Absolute World in its true sense.

[45:36]

When you practice Zazen without seeking for enlightenment or seeking for anything, then there is true enlightenment. So this is a reference to Dongshan's five positions. And the fifth position, so-called highest, but we transmigrate through all five positions. The fifth position is delusion within delusion, which is we know we are deluded and the world is full of delusion and we practice anyway. We return to the marketplace and help and assist as we see it needed, or we feel that it's needed. And so the so-called negative of delusion and the so-called negative of delusion come together in positive or awakening. So as long as we're separate, I'm deluded and I don't want to wake up, we'll never get there. If I see you as separate, I'm going to be not so comfortable giving a talk.

[46:43]

But in the delusion that we're separate and still practicing offering this talk and hopefully some encouraging words, there is awakening. And who wakes up? We all do. We all wake up. And speaking of waking up, my last story shared by a friend to me just the other day. I said, I've got to use that in my upcoming talk. She smiled and said, OK. So this is my friend's enlightenment story at Green Gulch Farm back in the early 70s when she was a student there and Richard Baker was the abbot. My friend used to either physically or emotionally was like this.

[47:55]

sheltering herself, her small self, from the world, from various traumas and things that she experienced. That was her comportment. Like this. Oreoki, three bowls, very formal and stylized way of eating. And we try to do it as quietly as possible. We don't let me do it at a restaurant. Scrape up every last drop of food with our metal spoon against the plate. Try to be quiet and handle things not as objects, but as if they're ourselves, because they are ourselves in this moment. How do I want to be with this fork and bowl and nourishing myself? So at some point during the orioki meal, the bowls are rattled by somebody, some noise. In the eno, the guy or the gal, Don't rattle your bowls.

[48:58]

They're Buddha's bowls. Well, that's a pretty good admonishment, maybe a little harsh. But as a reminder, these are Buddha's bowls. But it doesn't quite get the point. They aren't Buddha's bowls because that implies separation of ownership. Buddha owes the bowls. Well, nobody owes anything. So Richard Baker says in a rather forceful voice, authoritative voice, give this position. He says, they are Buddha's body. They are Buddha's body. And when we think of things as their body and as Buddha's body, then things are embodied. we become embodied with the things. Nothing is owned and we don't objectify.

[50:08]

We are embodying the practice, we take things in and become now. Thank you very much for your kind attention and curiosity. being here, especially new people for the first time. We have a little time for comments and questions. And people can raise their hands here and also digital hands or virtual hands on call online. Peter Overton, good morning. Thank you, Rose. Thanks very much for your talk. I kept coming back to not one, not two. And I keep thinking about, often we need some reminder about how we're not quite getting the message that we're kind of falling down on either things are one or things are two.

[51:27]

What can we do to kind of facilitate that we hear that message? Sometimes it comes as a surprise or shock or something like that, but maybe a more gracious attitude towards the torrent of stimuli that we deal with? I don't know. Any thoughts on that? Sure. So Peter asked the kind of dilemma that we fall on the side of oneness or the side of manyness, and how can we facilitate an understanding, is what I'm hearing, of how that is in our life. Is that close? And how we understand that and respond to it. You know, all the kinds of things we try to ignore Right. Well, as Suzuki Roshi said, we don't learn that by studying a talk.

[52:41]

We learn that from practicing. So while I put effort into trying to describe these various things that we're working with, to re-listen to that isn't necessarily going to help us. So how do I practice that? Not one, not two. And how do I get caught by that? So short of having an experience is still an idea. So when I feel empathy to a strangers' expression of sadness, grief, or what have you, that's a direct experience of not one, not two. And I don't have it all the time, but I had an experience of it. So if I'm caught with this, is this one or is this two, what do I do here?

[53:45]

I come back to the most equanimous place I can be, which is upright, and breathing, and there is a hint of, or a memory of, that former experience, that things are not as they appear as separate, but nor are they otherwise as one. And that's just more talk, right? So it's like, well, that doesn't clarify things. Well, I can only clarify it for myself. And I feel impotent not being able to help another person. But the question is sincere, and I think we all have that question. How do I resolve this marriage that I'm in, where I've made vows of oneness, and I'm losing my sense of self and my two-ness?

[54:46]

How do I do that? Well, we embrace it. And in that embrace, as when Soja's saying, you may now kiss the bride. The embrace holds the one and the two. And when I'm having a conversation with someone where I'm feeling separate and divisive and othered, then I think, what can I do to stay connected and feel the oneness? Because the otheredness is is there. Where's the one? Well, it's just a conversation. We have differences of opinion. We look different. We feel different. We're just having a conversation here. And in that practice of engagement, like you and I right now, looking at each other, trying to understand and being open to what's being said, we have an embrace from 30 feet away.

[55:55]

Sangha practice. Yeah. Let's see. Michelle, this will be the last question according to the time. Do we have time outside to chat some more? Please. Do you think... Oh, wait for the mic. Do you think... Irving Penn saw his models as objects. I don't know what Irving Penn thought, but when I was and have been photographing objects that catch my attention, the thought of an object disappears, and what comes forward is the virtue and beauty of the object that's caught my attention and my greed of wanting to capture it through taking pictures of things.

[57:11]

When I was doing photojournalism, it was take a picture and deadline publishing you know, car wrecks and various events and ribbon cuttings and all that sort of stuff. Those feel more objectified. It's an event, capture the event and get it published. When I was doing still life photography, one would spend hours arranging things just so the composition and the color and the light is all in place. So one becomes very intimate with that sort of thing. You said earlier that the transition from object to subject is enlightenment. Am I misquoting? Well, how does one transform or see object as subject?

[58:17]

Or how can object become subject? It is by respecting the object. And by respecting someone or something, there's no longer the thing and the observer. They're just the beauty. It's like... I also think that's art. Well, last thought on that. I was at the Dorsey Museum in Paris, and I saw this Lautrec on the wall, and I started crying. And I'd never cried before looking at a piece of art, because all you saw is colors and designs and this famous artist and all that. And I started crying. Well, that's subject and object merging. And she says, be careful about wanting enlightenment because you might not like it. Well, in this particular case, I liked it because there were tears and appreciation. And when I'm crying,

[59:20]

of sadness, of grief and all that, I have to accept that too as an awakening because that's what it is.

[59:28]

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