I vow to taste the truth of the Tautogonist's words. a shoe-seller, head monk for a practice period at Tassajara in the early 1980s, and lives with his family, his wife and his two children, here in Berkeley. If memory serves me correctly, Peter would mysteriously show up and serve as a dossier, an officiate for service.

[01:17]

And I always really, it just always felt really good, really like we were being held. And I never knew how he figured out when to come. Thank you, Al. Good morning. For a few weeks, just a few weeks this fall, we have a, as most of you know and many of you are participating in a period of time we refer to as aspects of practice where we take up a particular theme and discuss it in class and at some of these talks. And this year that theme has been to study our ancestors in Zen and Buddhism, and I'd like to, before I talk about the particular ancestor that I've been focusing on, I just wanted to talk a little bit about that theme, and because there's been some ongoing discussion about it, and around the question of what might be the usefulness and meaning of

[02:38]

of discussing and studying our ancestors in Zen and elsewhere. Every day, not every day, but frequently at morning service, we chant the names of the ancestors, the idea being that these ancestors in practice go all the way back to Shakyamuni Buddha and beforehand. And as Mel pointed out in last Monday's discussion, in fact, we don't really know about many of these people or their particular relationships. But the meaning of this mythology we have about the continuous transmission of the teaching from the Buddha forward to this very day is important. And its importance has to do with the fact that this practice and teaching comes down to us from person to person.

[03:48]

Somehow it comes down to us from person to person. Whatever might in fact take place between one person, one teacher, one student, It comes down to us from person to person, however you might want to understand that. So the ancestors, so chanting the names of the ancestors and studying the stories about the ancestors and all these little stories and and what teachings they gave to us is a way of acknowledging that awakening takes place in the context of relationship. All of the stories in Zen are about things that happen between people, and so awakening

[04:55]

That's the context in which we are living. We're living in relationship to one another. We come here and practice Dharma in relationship to each other, sitting together in this room and discussing things. This is also true, of course, of many other... I mean, we specifically celebrate this kind of... this aspect. Speaking of aspects of practice, but this aspect we celebrate specifically, but it's also true of various kinds of traditions where there is some intense and deep work going on, whether they be artistic, religious, musical, academic. You know, what somebody wants to know when you meet them, if you're a craftsperson or artist, is who are you with? Who are you in relationship to?

[05:58]

Then they know you, so to speak. It's not as kind of a surface or a status thing necessarily, but it's then, where are you coming from? Who are you in relationship with? Now, as I mentioned before, many of the ancestors that we recognize as the and the transmitters of our teaching to us are... we don't actually know that much about, but in fact they are symbolic of a kind of web of relationship that over time has brought the teaching to us today. I would like to talk a little bit about Nagarjuna, who is a... who was, as far as we know, an Indian monk who practiced in the first or second century, I guess, B.C., a very early time, and is known in particular for his commentaries on the Heart Sutra,

[07:19]

and a collection of poems in which he distilled what is known as the Madhyamaka school of thought, or basically a commentary on the perfection of wisdom. And this is the context of his life and practice, which we know something about, although we don't know much about Nagarjuna himself or his life. We presume that Nagarjuna was a man, which is highly likely, although given the context in which, the cultural context in which he appeared, or you may say he, which would also explain his, this is a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but it would also explain his understanding of him as a man, even if he wasn't. But in any case, we know little.

[08:20]

about this person except this body of work that has been presented and has been talked about ever since. And people are still talking about it. Last night I googled Nagarjuna and found that a very interesting paper written by someone named Megan Howe, a student at a small college in the East, who had apparently submitted this to the local philosophy club, which was a very interesting comparison between the Gartianist thought and that of postmodern philosophers such as Derrida, Wittgenstein, and so on. Which, you know, I found it interesting because Some concepts in Western philosophy that I have a vague familiarity with were being contrasted with Nagarjuna's thought in a way that kind of opened it up for me a little bit.

[09:24]

But in the context of ancient India, there was, it seems as though there was a tremendous turmoil in philosophically religious, it was a sort of competitive atmosphere of of many ideas coming forth, many development of different points of view in schools of Buddhism, schools of Buddhist thought. And Nagarjuna comes at a time when the Mahayana perspective was emergent. And his contribution was to sort of clarify and distill the concepts that are, you know, the teachings of the Heart Sutra, and to and then, in fact, his work is also kind of a going beyond the traditional schools of Buddhism, which, while maintaining and teaching the concepts of no-self, he took it kind of a step further, as we all have to do at some point, we have to kind of go a step further.

[10:40]

His step further was essentially the Mahayana perspective of, well, this concept really has no self either. This teaching that we have has no inherent meaning. The words we use, he demonstrated that there's a certain, there are limits to what we can know. And when you think about it a little bit, as I'm speaking here, you understand perhaps what I'm saying, largely within the context of your own mind, your own web of interrelated meanings, and that's about it. The meaning of language, is understood only in the context of language.

[11:44]

And therefore, it has no kind of, there's no sort of, you know, we sometimes refer to ultimate reality or the absolute, but again, we're just opening our mouths and making a reference to something which we understand by reference to numerous other concepts. And so Nagarjuna pointed out that, in fact, we're not really referring to an ultimate meaning. We can't refer to ultimate reality. We can only understand that sense of things by understanding that the limited forms of language and what we see and feel and so on are themselves not it. They themselves do not hold some particular permanent self-nature. I want to read one of the poems that comes from Nagarjuna's collection called the Mula-Madhyamaka-Karaka, or Verses from the Middle Way, and it's

[13:03]

It's translated by Stephen Batchelor in a little volume called Verses from the Center, and I like this one in particular. Now, Nagarjuna is often thought of as having developed this kind of dialectical style of argument which would basically negate everything that anybody could possibly want to say about whatever. and thereby demonstrating the meaninglessness of our limited referential system. And while that's true, I find that he goes beyond that. It's not just a philosophical argument. It is not just a nihilistic position. In fact, the Madhyamaka school, I would say, of all the schools of Buddhist thought, is perhaps the only one where It's like, well, we don't really know what is real.

[14:07]

We're not going to say it's not real. It's a little bit like that. It's not really a philosophical position. Most other schools of Buddhism settle on some little thing that you can kind of get your hands on. In any case, this is a poem. called Life. It's not too long, so I'll read the whole thing. Is life what drives me? Whether constant or fleeting, drives are not alive like life. How am I alive? When I cannot be found inside this mind or body, who is there to be alive? If I survived by clinging onto thoughts and feelings, how could I evolve? Without clinging or evolving, who can be alive?

[15:08]

If I came and went, how could I be freed? If clinging binds, I who cling would be unbound. Like those who do not cling, how is it I am trapped? Neither bound nor unbound are free. Were the bound to be freed, freedom and bondage would be simultaneous. I am free. I cling no more. Liberation is mine. The greatest clinging is to cling like this. What do you think of a freedom that never happens? What do you make of a life that won't go away? And so I think the reason why we remember Nagarjuna is because he was willing to live in the middle of this, of not, of taking a very firm position, a very firm, that's the wrong way to say it, but to not go for something, to not cling to an idea that

[16:23]

I'm just going to stay with this idea and that's going to work. To not cling to that. And at the same time, to not sort of ignore, to not turn away from the constant flow of life. I asked myself this morning, what is it that Nagarjuna has to say to us today? Many of us have been sort of disturbed lately about large events in the world, and to one extent or another they have set off reverberations in us about other issues in our personal lives.

[17:27]

I myself felt very disturbed, I thought, by the election I realized this morning. It's really probably also in connection with the recent passing of my father and so on and so forth. But in any case, what does Nagarjuna have to say about these kinds of, you know, extreme movements in our psychological experience and the corners we find ourselves stuck in? And mostly it's kind of, it's a little bit like, well, it seems like, you know, kind of lighten up a little bit, you know, and don't be, don't be caught by your patterns. Like if you find yourself going into one of those corners, those dark corners, well, you know, you don't have to sort of feed on that. You can kind of, you can kind of, Try something else. It's okay.

[18:32]

There's an end, a few stanzas, the end of this poem that I want to share with you, this other poem. It's a little long, so I'm not going to read the whole thing. It's called, this is the one that's called Self. I think I read a stanza from this a few weeks back. I think I was speaking here. I'm going to read the last two verses. You are not the same as, or different from, conditions on which you depend. You are neither severed from, nor forever fused with them. This is the deathless teaching of Buddhas who care for the world. When Buddhas don't appear, and their followers are gone, the wisdom of awakening bursts forth by itself. It's said that Nagarjuna was not entirely loved by his Buddhist compatriots who didn't necessarily appreciate his sort of determined and unwavering

[19:56]

choice to not, he didn't believe in any sacred cows and didn't hold them. He held them up only to show, to undermine them, I suppose. I love this verse. It speaks to me about a situation in which Hope is, you know, you've allowed yourself to hope and now you feel abandoned, but in fact, life goes on. You are not the same as or different from conditions on which you depend. You are neither severed from nor forever fused with them. This is the deathless teaching of Buddhas who care for the world. When Buddhas don't appear and their followers are gone the wisdom of awakening bursts forth by itself.

[21:00]

When you no longer look for Buddhas or question where their followers are, suddenly awakening appears. I'm going to kind of stop here, and we have some time, because I'm quitting a little early here, and I'd like to throw it open to discussion, or questions, or what have you. Yes? Thanks, Peter, for bringing up this ancestor. I'm just admiring the arrangement on the altar,

[22:04]

The thinking mind has been busy for eons. We have no idea of the volume. We think today that people are creating a lot of stuff with computers and extra files out there. But it's been going on a long time and there are uh... in the development of classical buddhism and the uh... various schools uh... the development of the abhidharma which is one of the sort of baskets of wisdom the sutras and the vinaya which are the rules by which monks live and the abhidharma which is the uh... the interpretation and codification and uh... and distilled wisdom about the buddha's words created an enormous uh... a body of texts and analysis, and then people would take this much away, this much, and they would try to distill it down to this much, which would also, this much would be, you know, 10 or 15 volumes, you know, and it's coming from thousands of volumes.

[23:52]

So, we're constantly struggling with how we share this teaching, how we talk about it. We're in a particular context now in America where everything seems very pure because there's not a lot of, you know, there's a whole lot of stuff that hasn't been translated and people like Eric haven't taught it to us yet. Although many of us are trying. But already, American practitioners have matured and are writing commentaries on the Sutra in a way which, of course, is like cookbooks. I mean, how many cookbooks do you need to make pancakes? But I can guarantee you there's a whole truckload of them out there someplace. But in a way, the impulse to say something more, to go beyond what was presented to you in a way that is relevant to a particular context.

[25:06]

Cookbooks are always about context, you know, in which you're cooking Buddha. What ingredients you have in your garden, you know, who's growing what these days, that kind of thing. Yes. I don't know which one he's going to answer, but... We have the transmission from person to person, without words, but apparently dependent upon an ancestor and then a student. And then as the poem you just read us, we have emptiness, enlightenment emerging out of nothing. I was wondering how we reconcile those two. Think of yourself with your teacher, the Buddha, just now. Okay? Just a minute. When Buddhas don't appear and their followers are gone, the wisdom of awakening bursts forth by itself.

[26:16]

So I'm imagining a time when they're before Buddha. Sure. And I've always kind of wondered about where did Buddha come from? How did he emerge? It's one of those questions the Buddha refused to comment on. But we do refer to them, you know, the seven Buddhas before Buddha. Innumerable Buddhas. going back. He goes all the way down. Go. Last night I was thinking all these heavy thoughts about, well, tons of stuff. Everything is heavy, everything is serious, everything is significant, everything is whatever. And then somehow I remembered being silly. And, I mean, just to be silly.

[27:26]

And I went up to my room and I just kind of like, just did silly. And it was like, it was like just taking this big weight away. This morning I woke up and I felt like really serious. Then I remembered being silly again. So I think I'm losing my talking about silly practice. There's an anecdote for everything. There's an antidote for everything. Yeah, it's important to remember how to do that. Yeah. Doesn't the suture say, seriousness is no other than silliness, and silliness is no other than... Yeah, yeah, you can remember that, but you gotta remember that it's there. That's sort of the flip side. You can only see one side of the coin at one point, but the other one's there. That's not what I actually wanted to say, though. coming off of silly. Only a few people were here yesterday at 5.40 when James Kinney did a talk.

[28:31]

And one of the many utterly lovely things that he said was that he was in a session with Kategiri Roshi, and it was one of those hard, brutal, he said, sessions where he kept thinking, what am I doing here? And then he went for Dokusan, and he said to Katagiri Roshi, sometimes I think Zazen is sort of silly. And Katagiri Roshi's reply was, you should keep sitting until you realize how silly it really is. And that connected for me to the question that Richard raised. How could In the absence of the teacher-student relationship, how could the perfect wisdom arise? Maybe that's all the only place it arises. Yeah. Yeah, what is this relationship anyway we're talking about? Would you be my teacher? Yeah, right.

[29:33]

Sure. Yes? Thank you for talking about finding ourselves in relationships. on Wednesday, and I was like, uh, it's been really heavy. But, you know, I just find my situation at work or at friends has presented itself for me to step up myself and help people. And I used to be out in the streets a lot when these things kind of happened, but I find myself just whatever I'm in, I would like to ask Alphonse when to Oregon and other far places. It's alright with me if anybody wants to say anything about whatever they feel moved to speak. Yes. I am so grateful to Melody and Stan for allowing me to experience that inner connection.

[30:41]

And the ultimate humanness from the contact was very helpful to me because I think that we all tend to put everyone in the category. And we encountered a number of people where one spouse was the one candidate and another was the other. And it was just very good to be present with Well, talk about relationship. It's really in your face when that happens. And I found that the practice that they provided, the practice environment that they provided for us was enormously helpful to keeping an even keel when your brain is being thrown in one direction versus another.

[31:53]

And I just remember Mba shows up haiku that says, the hanging bridge, clinging vines entwine our lives. And I think for me, Zen is the hanging bridge. And I just want to express my gratitude for making it possible to walk across. Yes? When I heard You know, I've been thinking a lot about the instances of Katagiri Roshi when he had, this was not in a zendo, but when he had experienced grief. And basically, it was at the news of Suzuki Roshi's dying, and near the end, he did express it with his whole body, practically howling.

[32:55]

And I believe that there are, There were times also, maybe one or two instances in Suzuki's presence in the United States where he had encounter grief enough to make him howl as well. As well as to be socially liked, as well as to be very sober and a zendo. So I want to acknowledge that as I try to be light and encouraging in my social realm through our social heaviness, and I think it's a very mindful, skillful practice to do, I don't want to feel shame or embarrassment that I also howl that there's a hundred thousand dead Iraqis. And what has happened is going to help that continue, you know, more strenuously.

[33:59]

Right. I didn't mean to sound candidatic, I'm just more or less talking about trying to claim it all. Yeah. That's all. Yeah. You know, those times, that happens. Stuff happens in our lives. Whether it's, you know, big events or small events. And, you know, all we can do is fall on the floor and wish for death. And I sometimes really wish that I had been able to take my practice into those places. I think And then a friend emailed me the link to dancingbush.com, which I highly recommend for silliness.

[35:18]

And I laughed from my belly. And then my family member in the hospital now, and that's very heavy. But throughout this week, I mean, it's been a difficult week for all of us. I feel that when you're upright, it creates a kind of tuning fork, and our beings become tuning forks and whatever is going on, we just vibrate. And it may be that that is the task of grieving. Yeah.

[36:21]

On a sillier note, maybe it's a time when people could consider career changes to humorists. I mean, there does seem to be a need for that as a sort of corrective. But yes, I think being upright and vibrating is kind of what we're left with. Alan? Well, this morning an old friend came by. I wasn't there for Zazen. My friend Ngoc Lam, who is a Vietnamese boat person, good conversation about the present political realities, because she had her views and wanted just to talk.

[37:36]

And it came to me that if it wasn't for the terrible loss and depredations of the Vietnam the ever-present possibility of turning, you know, and that who knows what will come from her taking up the Dharma because of the Vietnam War, you know, and of us, of the two of us talking about it, you know, and then now recalling that story here. So ripples happen in every direction. It's really quite wonderful.

[38:40]

Richard, how are we doing on time? Two to three minutes. Yes? I wanted to say a couple of things more about the Oregon election session. For people who didn't know, we were there for 17 days and 22 different people came and went during that time. We went there with social action goals to help re-elect a good congresswoman there and to try to carry Oregon for Carrie Edwards and win the national election. And then we had Zazen goals. And we also wound up cooking and eating a lot of really good organic food

[39:44]

So Zazen is social action, and the food, one of our, I got an email saying, the three treasures. Everyone really came there willing to work, and we all worked together so well. We knocked on almost 3,000 doors, a lot of the time in the rain, and talked to, I don't know how many people. innumerable phone calls. I actually kind of hurt my knuckle knocking on so many doors until I figured out to whack their door with my foot. It was, to me, really a distillation of just doing a couple of things, sitting Sazen, taking social action all day long in a concentrated way, and the relationship between the two of them just got closer and closer and more and more merged, and the necessity to do

[40:46]

together was never so evident to all of us, I think. And actually, I feel that we succeeded in many ways. We did help to re-elect the Congresswoman. And actually, Oregon did go up for Kerry. And both of those were by pretty small margins. So I think that our social action made a difference. But my biggest feeling of having sort of succeeded comes from what we really accomplished that can never be taken away, which is that we very much deepened our relationships with each other. So, and those threads go all through our whole Sangha. I'm glad. Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for and all of you who participated in whatever activities like that occurred in a sense because I believe that it's kind of an exploration in the relationship, in a dharma relationship with our larger community.

[42:07]

And I think that's something that we need to you know, find our voice in somehow, each one of us. I think it's very useful work. And so I very, very much appreciate your sharing about that. Peter? Yes. I saw Alan put up a sign about an election discussion. Yes. Next Friday at 7.30. Yes, those, yeah, I think there's a sign on the bulletin board. saying there's a meeting for those who might wish to discuss their experiences, feelings, and of course, your experiences around the connection with the recent election. So I think we should end. Yes, one more last one. the universe is coming together.

[43:33]

And all the foreign countries are looking so superior to the system. And this time, the other nations are saying, yes, we can make a mistake also. And we're becoming more close to each other. And I see very good, positive what has happened. I never thought I'm going to have this feeling after this election. But I see more globally now how we can have it stay worse. And we need a leader. The leader is coming, one leader in the universe. Well, there's always something surprising coming around the corner, isn't there? Thank you.

[44:22]

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