I vow to taste the truth of the Tathāgata's words. Good morning. Can you hear me? Is this working? Thank you. I hope all of you had a happy Thanksgiving holiday, but I realize that that may be an unrealistic expectation. For some people, these late year holidays are actually very painful.

[01:04]

perhaps because people don't have food or shelter, or they have difficulty in their family, a lot of anger, distrust, or there's no family, nobody to be close to, many reasons. So just to acknowledge this pain, which sometimes exists right next to pleasure, Today I want to speak with you about some aspects of self. To begin with, here are some Thanksgiving stories which I first read when I was about 20. The first one is a story about monk named Wang Po. It's his Chinese name, Obaku, Japanese name.

[02:11]

And so here's how the story goes, briefly. The governor of a district was visiting a monastery under his jurisdiction. The abbot of the monastery took the governor around for an inspection of various parts of the premises. And when they came to a room which contained, displayed pictures of the former abbots, the governor pointed at one and he said, he asked, who is this? And the abbot said, the late abbot. The governor asked, here is his portrait and where is the person? This unfortunately stumped the abbot and apparently everyone else who was present.

[03:21]

But the governor persisted and the abbot, now rather desperate, remembered newly arrived monk who busied himself sweeping in the courtyard during his spare time and straightening things out. Now when you hear about a monk who sweeps the courtyard in his spare time you have an idea who we're talking about, right? This is some Zen guy. Anyway, the abbot had this keen insight which was to get this fellow and bring him to the governor and so he did and the governor related the previous story, the one I just told. So Obaku, having heard the story, says,

[04:25]

and the governor says, here's the portrait of the former abbot, where is the person? Obaku says, oh governor. The governor says, yes venerable sir. Obaku says, where is he? Here's another story. This is about another friend, Zhao Zhou, or we call him Zhou Shu. A monk asked Zhou Shu, what is myself? And Zhou Shu says, have you finished the morning gruel? then wash your bowl.

[05:32]

So in these stories the respective masters, Obaku, I guess probably early in his career, and Joshu much later, calls forth the calls forth the governor and the monk has come forward. Let's talk to this real self in the moment. Anyway, I read these stories, as I said a long time ago, and I was delighted and excited by them. and in a rare moment of unselfconsciousness, actually on a late summer night in 1963, I read them to my father and he said,

[06:45]

but I see that they mean a great deal to you. So this old man is saying something like, I don't understand you but at least at this moment I see you, I appreciate you. once a student asked his teacher, what is your teaching for me? And the teacher extended his arm, opened his hand, closed his hand, extended his hand, opened it, closed it. So this is like giving, taking away, building a self, dismantling it.

[08:07]

Now I want to talk to you about the main case. These are just to warm you up. So this is another case about aspects of self. In fact this is the case that Sojin Roshi has asked me to study for this practice period. I think to keep me out of trouble when I'm And at the end of the practice period I'll recite the story again very briefly in the Chuso ceremony and then participants in the practice period can ask me questions about the case or about self or something related. This is a story, actually a few stories, about Dungshan, whom we often call Tozan, and about his teacher, Yunyan, who is Ungan Donjo, whose name we recite in the morning along with Dungshan's.

[09:46]

Originally, Dungshan found his way to Yunyan in pursuit of a question he had about non-sentient beings expounding the Dharma. We won't go into that now, but that's how he got there, that's how he found him. And Dungshan stayed with Yunyan for some time This morning we chanted the Song of the Jewel Mirror Samadhi. So this is something that Yun Yan transmitted to Deng Shan, according to Deng Shan, and Deng Shan transmitted to Cao Shan, his disciple. These two folks were the founders in Anyway, to give you a feeling of their relationship, I want to just tell you a few short stories about them before we get to the main case.

[11:04]

Dungshan said to Yunyan, I have some This is to establish a human basis between us and Dungshan. He has some habits. Yunyan says, what have you been doing? Dungshan replied, I have not concerned myself with the Four Noble Truths. That is, he's not He's not involved with trying to gradually purify himself of defilements in the sort of classical Buddhist way. He's on to something newer, a kind of sudden practice. Maybe there's a little boast in there too, I'm not quite sure. I haven't bothered with the Four Noble Truths. This is something like asking him, are you a sage?

[12:13]

Are you a first-level bodhisattva? So he says, are you joyful yet? Dungshan says, it would be untrue to say that I am not joyful. It is as though I have grasped a bright pearl in a pile of shit. So I think he's talking about finding purity right in defilement. Here's another one. Dung Shan asked Yun Yan, make an inquiry with the Chamberlain, required Yun Yan. Chamberlain's a kind of a go-between, sort of lower-level official between two higher-level officials. Dunshan said, I am inquiring right now.

[13:16]

What does he say to you, replied Yun Yan. So these two, they're always talking about the same thing, Who's on first? Once when Yunyan was making some straw sandals, Dungshan approached him and said, I would like to have the master's eyes. Yunyan said, where have yours gone? The reply from Deng Xian is, Liang Jie has never had them. Liang Jie is his monk name, as opposed to his ancestor name, Deng Xian. He's never had them. Yun Yan said, supposing you did have them, where would you put them? Deng Xian said, nothing. Yunyan said, isn't it the eye that desires eyes?

[14:24]

It is not my eye, said Dungshan. Get out, thundered Yunyan. That'll teach him. So these are earlier stories about their interactions with one another. their handling of this matter of self, body, desire. And so now we're at the end of their time together. And when Dungshan was taking his leave, ready to leave his master Yunyan, Dungshan replied, although I am leaving you, I still haven't decided where I'll stay.

[15:27]

Yunyan asked, you're not going to Hunan, are you? A lot of temples, a lot of practice, a lot of study going on in Hunan. No, replied Dungshan. You're not returning to your native town, are you? You're not going to just quit, go back to the village. No, replied Dunshan. When will you return, asked Yunyan. I'll wait until you have a fixed abode, said Dunshan. Yunyan said, after your departure, it will be hard to meet again. Dungshan said, it will be hard not to meet. So this is very tender.

[16:31]

It's very tender and yet you feel the conviction too, don't you? Dungshan's leaving. And what does this leaving mean? What is this coming and going? and how can they not meet? So this is Dungshan beginning to handle the question that now comes up in the main case. Just before leaving, Dungshan asked, if after many years someone should ask if I am able to portray the Master's After remaining quiet for a while, Yunyan said, just this person.

[17:33]

So, Dungshan is asking, have I gotten your message? Have you transmitted to me and have I received your Dharma? So, what does he come back with? his dharma, right? Just this person. Dungsan was lost in thought. Yunyan said, Chi, Acharya, monk Chi, his monk's name, having assumed the burden of this great matter, life and death, awakening, you must be very careful. Dungshan remained perplexed about what Yunyan had said. Later as he was crossing a river he saw his reflection in the water and he had a great awakening.

[18:47]

So right there on the spot he composed a verse earnestly avoid seeking without, lest it recede far from you. Today I am walking alone, yet everywhere I meet him. He is now no other than myself, but I am not now him. It must be understood in this way order to merge with suchness. I want to read this to you again and then read another translation. Earnestly avoid seeking without, lest it recede far from you.

[19:53]

Today I'm walking alone, He is now no other than myself, but I am not now him. It must be understood in this way in order to merge with suchness." This is a, I understand, a relatively free Do not try to see the world as an object. Do not try to see the world or yourself as an object. The you which is given as something to see is not you yourself. I am going my own way now, alone. And wherever I go, I meet myself.

[21:00]

If you understand that you as an object is not you yourself, then you have your own true way. Later, during a memorial service, before Yun Yan's portrait, a monk asked, when the former master said, just this person, was it actually this? Deng Shan said, it was. The monk said, what did he mean? At that time, I nearly misunderstood The monk said, I wonder if the former master actually knew reality.

[22:12]

Tungshan said, if he didn't know reality, how could he have known such a way in which to answer? If he knew reality, why did he go to the trouble of answering in this way? One more. Because the Master was conducting a memorial feast for Yunyan, a monk asked, what teaching did you receive while you were at Yunyan's? The Master said, although I was there, I didn't receive any teaching. Since you didn't actually receive any teaching, why are you conducting this memorial? Why should I turn my back on him?" said Dungshan. It is not my former master's virtue or Buddha Dharma that I esteem, only that he did not make exhaustive explanations for me.

[23:28]

Since you are conducting this memorial Do you agree with him or not? The master said, I agree with half and don't agree with half. Why don't you agree completely? The master said, if I agreed completely, then I would be ungrateful to my former master. embedded in these old stories are different selves, or aspects of self, variously coming forward, coming into focus, moving into the background, overlapping, merging, till your head spins, my head spins.

[24:38]

My mind wants to take it all apart, you know, that's my habit. Which self is this, which self is that, and probably some good scholars can give you some good opinions about these various selves that are flashing into view and going out of view and so on. So I'll take a very simple-minded stab at that, but what I really want to say is that I think the teaching effect of these stories for me is how they open and loosen my mind so that I just see this kind of flickering like, I don't know, looking at an atom or looking at the cosmos. not being able to fix on any particular self, just seeing selves coming forward and receding and so on. Not just my selves, but the selves of others as well.

[25:51]

But to oversimplify, we can perceive two selves or two kinds of stories about self in these cases. One story is about the independent, separate, freestanding self, the rugged individual, defiant, sometimes victorious, often lonely and miserable. This is the familiar self for most of us. It's limited. It's a conventional self story. Another story that you can find in these cases is about a self which is in harmony with other selves, which only exists really in relation to other selves, which looks around and whatever it sees is itself.

[26:53]

This latter self is unlimited, unconventional. beyond appearance, two quite different stories. As Tenshin Roshi has said, these stories about self, some stories like these two conventional and unconventional, limited and unlimited self, these stories are equally true. as this may come as a shock it did to me the first time I heard him say that, they're equally true. It's just that the second story liberates us from the first story. It has that effect or it can have that effect. In other words, if you're stuck in the first story about the isolated self, which most of us are most of the time, then the story about interdependency can free us.

[28:01]

On the other hand, it is possible to get stuck in the second story also, to find harmony so attractive that individuality and responsibility are subordinated. reaction to our previous fixation on the first story and our joyous embrace of the second, we may forget that each person is alone in both senses of that word. Alone, at one, at one with separate and unknowable. So really, liberation from self, liberation as self, means to go beyond both stories, to go beyond all stories.

[29:14]

This is going beyond ignorance and going beyond awakening. Thank you very much. Do you have any questions or comments? Something like that. Can you expound on that a little bit? How is it that it's put that way? Mark? Yes. That's it? For now. Why is it put that way? What's the structure behind that language?

[30:22]

Yeah. So everywhere he goes he meets himself. He's not this limited packaged, simply packaged isolated self that we usually think we are. It actually is you. Wherever you go you meet yourself, but you are not it. That's the second story, the first story I mean. The first story is the conventional self, separate, isolated, unknowable, unreachable, lonely. That's what I think.

[31:23]

Yes? What would you like to know about me in this story? All these stories are about me and my life. I mean that, that's why I told them. I mentioned early on in 1963 when I began to read these kinds of stories I was puzzled as I still am. by these stories, but it evoked an experience, a story between my father and me, which is a long story I won't go into, but I told it in such a way that I think by not saying certain things you could appreciate that we had a difficult relationship. It was a trying one for me and for him too.

[32:26]

But then there was that moment which is irrevocable, in which he could say, I don't understand, for my father to say, I don't understand, I don't get it, this is beyond me. Of course it was beyond me too, but that was quite something for him to say. But then he appreciated the person in front of him. I don't mean just like petting him on the head, he saw him for a moment. So that's a story about me, but I don't know, it's probably about Dungshan too, and you. Russ. Thank you, David. How do you know what teaching of your teachers to disagree with? I spontaneously disagree with my teachers and it's just, I don't have to think about it.

[33:50]

Well, it's the same answer, of course. But the first response is actually the opening up of something quite valuable. When I disagree, then there's something really interesting to work on, to respect, in the sense of seeing it again and again. And then I may continue to disagree. If it's really a rich vein, I may disagree for a long time. And I may never agree, but something falls away and it's not an issue anymore. Paul? Do you have any thoughts about the title of Alan Watts' book called The Taboo of Knowing Who You Are? No. It's nice though. Laurie?

[35:06]

When I often think about that phrase, interplay, you know, the thing I like, the thing I am most grateful for is that he didn't make long explanations, and the way that I, her first read that translated into what I think that is, wasn't so much, you know, it was like he never pointed out anything directly or something, he never explained anything directly, And I just, I found that to be so comforting in that, those times when you, like, why can't someone just explain this to me, you know? I can't understand this, you know? And that here is, he's most grateful for the fact that his teacher was able to refrain from trying to explain, you know? Yes. And I just find that very comforting. Yes. I wish I had when I first heard it. I rebelled against it. I thought it was just a way to cover up. Yes?

[36:07]

David, thank you. You're welcome. Sue. Julia. Then Andrea. Then we have to go home. There's a lot of traveling going on. A lot of traveling. So why do we travel? Why do we travel? Yeah, well, we keep looking for something, and we seem to undertake travel. But I get this feeling that in the last story about Dung-Shan and Yun-Yan, I guess he's traveling, I mean, he must be leaving and going somewhere, but it's, what kind of a leave-taking is it? Is he really going somewhere?

[37:08]

Is he leaving Union behind? Could he if he wanted to? Well, his body's going somewhere. His body, yeah, and perhaps he needs to go, you know, we can make up a story. He needs to go study with other people and hang out in the mountains, and I don't know what he needs to do. We know he did a lot of other stuff. But we do those things. But so that's one level that we're always going and coming and seeking and obtaining and losing and falling apart and so on. But the other side of the story is just right there in this case, I think. There's no leaving, no traveling. You can't get away from yourself. It's frightening. Andrea. And hearing so many different interpretations, it's really incredible.

[38:20]

And every year, there's new questions and new perspectives. And it's just, it's like, do we continue? Until next time. So the part I just started thinking about this time was, maybe it's similar to Ross's and Julia's question, and there's something that they are saying, and maybe not explaining completely, which is a good thing, but maybe the leading is leading from something outside of Dimshon, his own experience. So, what I'm wondering from you is, when do you start Yeah, I think I understand your question.

[39:34]

I think it takes a lot of travel, actually, a lot of bumping around and being pushed and led and give and take. It takes a lot of traveling to figure out that you don't need to travel and can't travel. There's no place to go. But paradoxically, you have to go out and come back, and you have to work at that. I mean, it would be a nice story if your teacher could say, oh, you're already whole and complete and wonderful, and you don't need any improvement. This would be nice if we could then believe it, but I don't think it works that way, so I don't know. Yeah, you don't believe it.

[40:42]

Yeah, we keep breathing in and out. Yeah. Thanks. Beings are numberless.

[41:00]

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