Welcome again, and thank you for being here. I'm offering this talk in Grad 2 to Sojin Roshi, and I've known him for many years as I was living at city center and practicing at Taosahara as well. But it wasn't until 2014, that's 12 years ago, 12 years ago when we went down to Taosahara together. I was Shuso and he was co-leading that practice period with Paul, my other teacher. that's when I got really close to him, got to know him more and know his teaching more, which is still inspiring me.

[01:14]

And so my connection with Berklee Zen Center is through him, was through him, and After that tasahara practice period, I would be coming to see him every few weeks, and we would, as Linda said, we would go to dim sum, and we would talk, we would take a walk, maybe study something in his office. And I have very fond memories of those days. And I miss him. One of the things he said to me really stick with me, which was, Lucy, be your Chinese self.

[02:27]

When we go have dim sum or, you know, have a meal together, oftentimes I would be, like, doing my Chinese ritual, which would be, like, serving him food, and then he would serve me back sometimes, and then he would say, I like this. I like how... how we do this together. And sometimes I gave a talk at Taosahara or a city center. If he was there or he heard that, he would give me feedback right after. And he said, I like that you told your China stories. Just do that. And that was very encouraging for me because I was trying to blend in.

[03:32]

Even though my Chinese heritage really has a strong imprint in me. And I was still, I have been still going back every year, a couple times a year. And I practice there as well. But when I'm here in America, I feel like I need to blend in. So after he encouraged me, I feel much, much more comfortable just being myself, which I wouldn't say Chinese or American. It's just this person with all the stories, all the experiences, like all of you. So as Linda said, I was born in China in a city called Guangzhou.

[04:37]

Guangzhou was called Canton in the West. Have you ever heard of Canton? That's where dim sum comes from. Cantonese food. So I grew up there until I was 23, a few years after college. Then I came to the States. So my growing up and my life in China really informed me. So if you don't know much about Guangzhou, Guangzhou is a very old city with history of a couple thousand years.

[05:43]

And it's sitting at the mouth of the Pearl River in southern China. And it was a... early port, like in ancient times, it was a port on the Maritime Silk Road. So it's a place where people meet, people exchange, things and ideas. Even today, it's still the case. A lot of things come through Guangzhou into mainland China, while Guangzhou is sitting on the other side of Hong Kong, basically.

[06:52]

And it's a very interesting city where tradition meets modern technology, modern things. And also where a lot of people coming from all parts of the world would come through like this poor city. And in the very center of the city, there is an old street that nowadays is called Beijing Street. It's like California Street or Washington Street here. They named it in the 60s, they named it Beijing Street. But in ancient times, throughout different dynasties, it was called Beijing.

[07:59]

called different names. So when I left China, right before I left China, a couple of my best friends, we all went to Beijing Street because there are a lot of little shops, little sweet places, places that sell sweets. We would be hobbing From place to place and eating all the typical Cantonese food and sweets. That's probably just a couple of days before I left. And over the years, those friends have scattered into different parts of the world. And one of them lives in Boston now, and one of them is still in Guangzhou.

[09:05]

So just recently, in November, I went back home, and my friend in Boston also went. And so with the friend in Guangzhou, the three of us, actually, with the Boston friend's husband, four of us, went back to the city center, to Beijing Street, and to look for some of those shops. And of course, a lot of them are gone. But on that street, there is a section where it has become an exhibit of these ancient streets that was built over the centuries beneath the current pavement. So they discovered those ancient pavements in the 90s, I think, when they were digging things up.

[10:21]

And then they, well now that whole street is predestined only. There are still lots of shops and stores. But that section, they make it into an exhibit where you can see through the glass, like a layer of glass you can see deep down there. There are maybe 11 layers. starting from Tang Dynasty, the 600s. Each dynasty, pretty much they rebuild. They cover the street with new material. So you see the different materials over time. Starting from Tang Dynasty was sandstone slabs. And then Song Dynasty was granite.

[11:23]

And then later on there was bricks and tiles. It's very interesting. And then the whole foundation started in ancient Qing Dynasty in third century BC. So you walk on that street and you see that there's this kind of powerful experience of knowing that human beings, our fellow human beings, have lived there for millenniums, for centuries, doing their activities there. And the Beijing Street used to be called the West Lake Street in Tang Dynasty because there was a little lake there called West Lake.

[12:27]

And it was the central, the street was the central, it's still the central axis of the city. It was lovely to be back there because I have so many memories of this old town. also because it's not far from there. It's my favorite temple, nowadays called Guangxiao Temple, and in the Tang Dynasty called Faxing Temple. Faxing means Dharma, nature. So that temple is closely associated with the six ancestors, six ancestors Huinen.

[13:29]

because the koan, the wind and flag koan happened there. Has anybody not heard about the sixth ancestor Hui Neng here? Everybody has heard of him. So, I have the intention to talk about this koan today, and it took me a long time to take you through Beijing Street to go to this temple. So this temple is sitting in the center of Guangzhou, bustling district, neighborhood. But when you enter through the gate, through the mountain gate, you enter a different world.

[14:37]

There are many, many flowers. So it used to be like there is a huge Buddha hall, which is a building itself. And in front of the Buddha hall, there used to be a huge incenser. like at least 12, 15 feet long. Huge incense. And then, because many people would go there and offer incense and say prayers, there would be two large metal things on the side where you light your incense, where there will be like fire, like a lamp.

[15:42]

You light your incense there, and then you take your incense to the huge incenser, offer your incense side by side with many other people. And at one point, that changed into a flower bed. Because I think there was too much smoke, and I think for safety. I think that happened during the pandemic. Before the pandemic, we were still doing incense offering. At the entrance of the temple, after you enter the gate, there will be long tables where you can pick up incense. And now it's replaced by... but like flower bouquets or a single flower. And then you can get your flower and then offer flowers. And then there's this beautiful flower display for many feet long.

[16:46]

I think from donors from flower shops in the city. And behind the Buddha hall, you come to a place where the ancestors, six ancestors' memorial hall is. And there's a separate hall for Kuan Yin. And there's a stupa where Master Hui Neng's hair is buried under. because he was ordained there. He shaved his head there. And you still see the Bodhi trees and the temple flags. So the story goes, you can find the story in the Platform Sutra.

[17:58]

about the six ancestors in the wind flag story. So the story goes, after he received transmission from the fifth ancestor, Master Hongren, he went in hiding for many years in the South. So he was from... Guangdong province from the area of Guangzhou city. His hometown was a couple hours from the city. Well, it would have taken days to walk in the old days. But he met the fifth ancestor in Hubei province up north of Guangdong province. So he came back to Guangdong And then he went into hiding for years.

[18:59]

At one point, that's maybe 15 years later, some say 13, he came to Guangzhou and he got to the Dharma Nature Temple. And one day, Well, at that time, he wasn't a teacher. He was just one of the practitioners. He wasn't even ordained. And one day, the abbot, Ying Zung, was going to give a lecture on the Nirvana Sutra. I think a lot of you have already read the story or heard the story. But, you know, in the old days when there was a lecture going to happen, they will raise the flag. That's before the internet time. So people would know there is something happening.

[20:06]

So the flag was flapping in the wind. And two monks were talking about that. One monk said, the flag is moving. And the other monk said, no, it's the wind that's moving. And then they were going back and forth and arguing about it. And then the sixth ancestor, well, Hui Neng at the time, he overheard the discussion and he just, he spoke up, he said, It's not the wind moving. It's not the flag moving. It's your mind that's moving. So the abbot heard him and realized he was a realized person.

[21:13]

And then he asked him where he was from. because there was already stories of six ancestors going and hiding, and so they suspected it was him. And so at that time, Master Huyneng revealed himself. And the abbot immediately called the assembly to give him a formal ordination, shave his head, and they kept his hair, according to story. I mean, the stupa is in the temple still. You see people circumambulating. So that's when he emerged from being a...

[22:19]

the sixth ancestor in hiding from that to being the sixth ancestor giving teaching to the assembly. And soon after that, he moved to Cao Xi, or nowadays called Shaoguan, also a couple hours, a few hours north of Guangzhou, and established his own community, and he gave most of his teachings there. And most of the records in the Platform Sutra talked about him giving teachings there. So it's not the wind moving, not the mind moving.

[23:25]

I mean, not the flight moving. So usually, when something happens, our tendency is to focus on the object, to what's happening outside. get fixated. And so our idea about what's happening outside colored what's happening in reality. So when the six ancestors said, it's your mind that's moving, that is saying that it's your mind, your conceptual mind, your thinking mind, your feeling mind, is creating stories, creating discriminations,

[24:53]

about the wind and the flag, the external things, and that's what you see. When something happens, somebody say something, and you don't like it, and You might think, oh, it's that person. Of course, that person is wrong. Or someone says something nice to you, and you really like it. Oh, that person is correct. Oh, I love him. I love what he says. Well, last time I was in this Zen, though, that's quite a few years ago now, I came to the Rohatsu Sashin right before the pandemic.

[26:05]

I think that's when Sojun Roshi led his last Sashin. 2019, December. And I remember I was sitting... behind either this one or that one. What do you call this wooden thing? Pillar? Oh, you call it pillar too. Not just the stone pillar. I was sitting, I want to sit behind that one because that one is kind of in front of the seat a little bit, right? Right. Oh, yeah, I had a lot of fun with that pillar. Because I never said Sushin here. In fact, I don't think I ever said Zazen here until that Sushin, because every time I came, I would just meet up with Sojin Roshi, and then we would go off somewhere.

[27:15]

So I got the seat behind that pillar, and... You know, at city center, they were also having Rohatsu Sesshin at the same time, but because I wanted to be here with Sojin Roshi, so I came. And then I was assigned to that seat. And you know, with the priest robes, at city center, I got used to, like, when you get on the seat, you sit on the cushion and you just move your body clockwise. and then face the wall. And then, of course, the pillar being there, you would bump into the pillar. And not only that, when the servers come in, when it's mealtime, you try to unwrap your bowls and set up your napkin. And then the...

[28:20]

And then the server comes. I never knew where to put my Oriyuki set, because if I put it right in front of me, part of it would be behind the pillar. So it was really inconvenient. Of course, the first day, I was like, oh, this pillar is in my way. And I had to negotiate with the pillar every time I get on and off the cushion or have my meals. And I was like, I should have just stayed at City Center. I'm so familiar with there, and I know all the people. And here, I knew just a couple, and...

[29:21]

I didn't know all these people are in the Zen. And so he told me, I want to say, a day or two to get settled. The pillar being a problem. To, oh, there you are. And as it always happens, after I make peace with the pillar, they switch me to a different seat. How is it in our life that we think is the flag and the wind moving?

[30:40]

Do we know that our mind also is moving? When you notice someone maybe you don't like, does your mind move before they even open their mouth? or when you have a deadline or you want to get something done and you're running out of time and you're getting anxious about it.

[31:50]

Where's your mind moving to? to notice what's happening and to notice what's happening both outside and inside and to be with what is, allowing that you move from the place of insight.

[33:12]

from the place of space and freedom instead of a place of fixation or a preconceived idea about what reality is. So I think this koan is an invitation for us to look into reality and look into our relationship to what's happening and to take responsibility in our own response.

[34:28]

And so this case, this koan made into the koan collection of wumen guan the gateless gate or gateless barrier. It's case 29. So the case described the, what, you know, the koan itself. And then Master Woman, who compiled Woman Guan, Master Woman's commentary was, it's not the wind moving, not the flight moving. Also, not your mind moving. So even that, that we can let go of. So I like to...

[35:51]

we invite you to ask questions when something happens that perhaps is a little challenging for you. So, oh, is this question time? I was inviting you to ask questions in general. In your life, but this is a perfect point to invite you. to ask questions. So you can call on someone and I will bring the microphone.

[36:59]

Well, let's see. I saw two hands in the back. I think I saw this gentleman here first. So Russ, is it Russ? Sorry, I'm not seeing very clearly. Hi, Russ. Hi. So nice to see you, Lucy. Nice to see you. And I gave an opportunity to thank you for spotting the ladder that I climbed up. You held the ladder when I was clearing out the gutters of that Abrahatsu Sashima. Nice to see you again. I was struck by the story of Wienang and his teacher in that... The teacher says, you're just a barbarian from the South. What are you doing here? And Sojin's story, just be Chinese when you were going back and forth. It's such a simple thing, but it really struck me deeply. And that's the beauty of it.

[38:01]

The simplest things are the best as we try to keep less complicated out there. That's all I wanted to say. It's nice to see you. Thank you, thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Yes. So I was wondering that story, if the flag is moving. So you are saying the flag is moving. No, I'm saying, I'm asking. That's a question. Is the flag moving? Is the flag moving? Right. The flag is moving due to the condition of win, let's say. However, each of us will see it differently. So the same situation happens. Lucy will say, oh, it's such a problem.

[39:05]

And another person would say, oh, that's funny. And so we operate through our mind. And so even though the external condition is there, it is through our own contact with the world, with the outside world, through our own mind and how our own mind interprets it, that we see that, we translate that into what we think. In this case, the mind that Six Ancestors is pointing to is our thinking mind. It's just so much negation, not the mind, not the flag, not your mind. It's so much negation in that story. Yes, and what do you think of that? I sort of think that's kind of the absolute, but the flag is, you know, it's like you have to kind of be in that middle space between, yes, the flag is moving, yes, the world is the way it is, and knowing that your mind interprets it.

[40:25]

Yes. I guess that's the way I see it, but, you know, when I first read that, I was always like, but the flag is moving. Anyway, just wanted to ask that. Yeah. So any of those teaching stories has a context. So when we read it, it may be out of context. So maybe the two monks were really arguing and really got attached to their ideas. And so I think our practice is to ask ourselves, what is the situation ask of me? It's not important to have a decision about who is right, who is wrong. It's more important, what's the practice here? Thank you. Yes? Hi, thanks for your talk this morning.

[41:31]

You're welcome. I'm interested in general in what this invitation that you've made to notice. I'm wondering what that noticing, right? It's one thing to think about a flag in the wind in my mind. I have very neutral feelings about these things. But for your other example, like other people, right? Challenging situations. In those situations, there may be space for noticing and there may not be. maybe afterwards, for me at least, that the noticing might come after. But it's this pivot from noticing to realizing space. I don't know what my question is, but there's something in there, like the application of this noticing that maybe you could say something about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So... It's like in Zazen, a thought comes, you notice, or a feeling comes, you notice, right?

[42:47]

Is that how it works? And then what do you do in Zazen? You let go of it. In real life scenario, it's more complicated. And it happens very fast sometimes, you notice. And then already your emotions, you invest a lot of your emotion in it already. And so the practice is to... When you notice, or if you notice at all, when you notice, you allow a little space, as you said, to come back to your awareness. And sometimes it's helpful to come back to our body.

[43:49]

Oftentimes it's helpful to come back to our body. And it's also helpful to expand the field of our, I mean literally, the field of our vision, to not just super focus on who is saying what thing to me, but to take in all the things that's happening around. and allow yourself to be with it. And our practice in the Zen, though, is like playing music. You have to learn the scale and repeat again and again, and play a piece again and again, and then you go to your performance.

[44:56]

So that builds a foundation for how you are in real life, how you respond to what happens out there. So practice and practice and practice. And ask questions. and not jump to conclusion too quickly. Like I have a thought about this person. Is it real? Thank you. Thank you. We have a question online. Okay. And where do I find? Okay. Yes. Yes.

[45:57]

Question. Hi, I'm looking at you on the screen, but from the image, I'm looking, but the camera is there. Okay, I'm looking at you now. My question for you is, what was your response when Sojin told you just to be Chinese? Oh, I just relaxed. that, oh, it's okay for me to be Chinese, okay for me to eat Chinese food and tell my Chinese stories, and to actually say things in Chinese. Sometimes when I give a talk, I come across like a poem or a term that it helps me to say it in Chinese because that's my mother language.

[47:01]

And that's how it embeds in me. And is that, did I answer your question? Yeah, I sort of, it kind of really, in terms of being in his way, reassuring. Mm, reassuring. Or to be yourself? Yes. Yes. To say it in another way is that it helped me to feel comfortable living as a bicultural person. to live these different experiences and to go from this world to another world, which hold these two worlds may be holding many very different values, have different cultures,

[48:26]

and to find the common ground in the differences. I go to China and I sit with people and people sitting upright. And I come here and I sit with people and people here also sitting upright. There is something that we share. Thank you. Thank you very much for your question. Okay, one more question. One last question. You are having an experience of the pillar. I've been working with this pillar for a long time. And I've made friends with it.

[49:33]

I know how to deal with it. I don't let it get the best of me. But my question was, I was really following when Huanan said, it's your mind that's moving. That I understand. But then you had to add this other teacher who said... Nothing's moving, not your mind. And it's like, wait a minute. So that's kind of where I got stumped. I mean, is that talking about the absolute? Is that how we should look at it? Well, I don't like to think of it too complicated. It's like, okay, the first person... get attached to the flag and the other person get attached to the wind. And maybe there's another person who reads the six ancestors' response and get attached to their minds moving.

[50:40]

Like, to make it a thing. To make it a thing. So, if we just live our life, we... live our life in a way that we engage in the natural flow of things, then we are all moving together, or we are not moving. There is a space in which things move all the time. and the space that holds everything, or that which allows things to emerge and fall away. That's always there. So maybe he's saying don't get attached to anything. Right.

[51:44]

Well, that's my understanding. Yeah, no, that makes sense to me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all very much for being here. on this cold, sunny morning. I hope you enjoy the sun the rest of the day. Thank you.

[52:06]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_96.86