It's nice to see so many familiar faces having just returned. So I've been away for a month and this training, sort of like intensive or retreat, you could call it, is designed as a teacher training, as an additional teacher training. And it was started by some priest teachers, including our Alan Sanaki, our Vice Abbott, and also Grace Shearson, another BCC person, who had, some of them didn't have, they weren't living, they weren't teaching in a residential setting, but they had students, so they wanted to create a way that they could work more closely with their students. And also, they felt that they were missing things missing in the usual way that we get trained as teachers in the various residential centers. So they wanted to add supplemental material.

[01:02]

I would characterize the month as a group of people doing something very scary in a very, very safe container. So a simple teaching that I return to myself again and again is to be a non-anxious presence. I think I first heard this phrase in a book about family systems therapy, perhaps. And the point was that one of the most important things you can do in any situation is to be a non-anxious presence. And for a family therapist, maybe the most important thing is just to be a non-anxious presence. And you know, Thich Nhat Hanh often talks about or would talk about that when the boat people were out on the water, if there was one person in the boat who could remain calm, that could make the difference between the boat capsizing and not capsizing. And you might not know that our own Buddha here is in a certain position, a mudra, a hand position, and what Yvonne Rand, the Zen teacher Yvonne Rand, described as, what's he doing here, have no fear, all is well.

[02:23]

Yes? I don't think the microphone's on. It's got, oh maybe. Was it turned on? Yeah. I think maybe it just needs to be turned up. No, no. That should make a sound. We're having technical difficulties this morning. The green light is on. And it's on to on. But it's not going. Make sure it's on. Should I just try it again? And the switch is turned on below, Jane? I think it is. He has two lights, a red and a green. You've turned it up. Nothing's happening. Just talk loud.

[03:37]

Can everyone hear? We can hear you. OK, I will try to project my voice. So I was saying that our Buddha statue is saying, have no fear, all is well. It's kind of like Buddha as non-anxious presence. And so how do you be a non-anxious presence? Well, partly by managing your own anxiety and also by, you could say, watering the seeds of non-anxiety in your life. So, we have been naturally selected to tune into threats and sources of anxiety in our environment. And so, we can purposefully and consciously Notice the things in our environment that are safe and reassuring so like as I was Thinking about giving this talk.

[04:43]

I knew that I would feel somewhat anxious to be sitting up here and so I reminded myself to look around and see the faces of my friends and people who you know want this talk to be a success and And one of the frameworks we learned at the spot training was this kind of three circles, the personal, the interpersonal, and the transpersonal. And so this idea of being a non-anxious presence is like a transpersonal goal or a transpersonal, you want to connect to a bigger source. of non-anxiety and radiate that or share that as like a kind of light. So the transpersonal is like to channel the light of the infinite or emptiness or the unconditioned through your system towards each other. And then what sometimes can get in the way of that is stuff going on in the personal and the interpersonal.

[05:49]

So in the personal, your own neurology and your childhood wounds and just tendencies and sort of unconscious, undigested stuff that's stayed in your psyche based on personal experience. And then the interpersonal is how you do or don't get your needs met in the social situation, how you deal with conflict, where you go when you're in a situation of conflict, how you get your needs for belonging met and such like that. So I spent time during the retreat exploring my own anxiety as a way to continue this practice of being a non-anxious presence. And Grace had an interesting word she used, which was new to me and I had fun playing with it, where you're letting your own, what I just mentioned as your material, circulate.

[06:51]

So to digest it or to process it is not so much to eliminate it as that it's always freely circulating, which is a really new and strange idea to me, but it was fun to play with because it's not getting stuck anywhere inside and it's not getting stuck anywhere outside. And in a sense, if you're metabolizing it, maybe it can be used as food and nourishment somehow. So that was interesting. thing to play with. So a big part of being alive is staying alive. We have to stay alive. That's one of the things that makes being alive different from not being alive. And to stay alive is an anxiety producing project because we're in a world, as the Buddha teaches us, of impermanence. no fixed self, and discomfort, suffering, pain, and also we're going to die.

[07:59]

So, right there, you know, there's a little bit of a conflict going on. So, it's natural that we have anxiety just as being human beings. There are these basic sources of anxiety and our lack of control of the situation and the way it's always changing. in a way that we can't predict or control. It's really a good thing in practice when we get our buttons pushed, and I wasted a lot of years trying not to get my buttons pushed. It's really great when you get your buttons pushed If you can, if you have the presence of mind, you know, because when we get our buttons pushed, it's kind of like we have usually, we often have this bright light on the other, the one who pushed our button, where we've got, you know, this radar or something focused on the person or whatever situation that pushed our button.

[09:00]

And if we can just have the presence of mind to kind of turn that light around and look at ourselves. that is really, you know, as Dogen says, your treasure store will open up itself. And so how do you do that? Well, first by connecting with it in your body. What does this feel like in my body? What is it, you know, what is it, how is my breath? What is it doing to my breath? What's happening with my breath? What kind of muscles are engaged? What kind of energy? Where are the sensations? And really experiencing that, experiencing it in your body. And then being aware of what kinds of feelings are involved. And then, I mean, and really feeling the feelings, feeling how you're feeling.

[10:06]

and then noticing your mind state, so like what kind of story is operating, what kind of intentions and ideas and fantasies are you having, and how are you thinking about it, what does it remind you of, and what do you associate with this situation or these feelings, this experience. And then, and only then, you can try what Dharma teaching applies to this situation. Once you've really connected with yourself, what's the Dharma teaching? Is it impermanence? Is it craving? Is it, you know, whatever Dharma teachings that you've learned or that your teacher or friends can remind you about in that situation. So, one of the scariest things for me in this life is to want something. when I want something, I am very, very aware of my vulnerability about how I might not get what I want.

[11:12]

There's probably a good chance that I won't get what I want, it seems like to me. And so, I notice that I watch other people and I see that there's this much more direct, like, I want something, I will go get it. There's this flow of energy And it can be skillful or unskillful, and it can get that person into trouble or not. But I just don't have that, I kind of have this, it comes up and then there's this thing that comes, like a little inner bully or something that clamps down on it. So this played out. One of the things I wanted most in my life was to be a mother, to have children. And so I really didn't know if that was going to happen, particularly I was very clueless, I would say, about getting into relationships and staying in relationships. So it didn't look promising, you know.

[12:13]

And then when I met Alan and it all started to roll in that direction, it was getting almost more and more anxiety producing. As the closer I got to getting what I wanted, I got more and more anxious about it. kind of almost, I would say, not almost, like feeling like maybe I was just being set up in some way, you know, for a big fall. And so, you know, the situation was proceeding, got pregnant, you know, and then it did turn out actually that when my daughter was born, there was a problem. There was a problem with her in the first week where she wasn't nursing properly and I didn't realized that quite I wasn't getting quite the help I needed and I wasn't Able to figure it out. So we ended up in the hospital when she was about 10 days old For dehydration and so What I remember about that time was a kind of like a breaking through of

[13:26]

what I would call natural parental anxiety and concern, you know, like, oh, this person who's depending on me is in trouble, you know? And so there was like a fog of this, what I would call the neurotic fear of like, how is this, you know, in terms of my own pain and disappointment in life, how is that part of that? And then this kind of breaking through of what I would call the natural order of mind of a parent to be concerned and even anxious. And that kind of anxiety kind of focuses your mind and tunes you into what's happening. And the other kind kind of causes a cloud of confusion. And I'm not sure there really are two kinds. I don't know if neurologically that's possible. I don't know. You can let me know what you think. But there was definitely, I was in a process where something very real and organic and natural was breaking through this cloud of confusion.

[14:38]

And I don't know how long it took, maybe years. It was a process. So, to have anxiety, parental anxiety, is natural. It's normal. And also, one of the most important things you can do as a parent is to be a non-anxious presence for your child. And so there's a koan right there, right? Because your anxiety is pointing you to figuring out how to manage your own anxiety. Both kinds, both kinds. The kind that you're worried that you want this child to live and you're worried about all the situations and all the threats and all the adverse circumstances, and also the kind where it's something about you, like what does this say about me? That's always kind of there for us towards the bottom of things.

[15:42]

What does this say about me? Or what is this about me? How is this me? So you not only want to manage your own anxiety or let your own anxiety circulate, be an unanxious presence for your child, but you kind of need to hold off the world, which is full of sources of anxiety, you know, as we've already talked about the impermanence. So you kind of want to create some permanence. That's one of the important things for secure attachment for a child is a sense of permanence. mother is going to, or the father, the caregiver is going to be there every time and you also are involved in creating a self, you're creating boundaries, you're saying this is you, this is me and we're separate and you're teaching them that, you're creating in a sense, you know, a little bubble world where these rules don't quite apply, the impermanence and

[16:47]

and the dependently arisen self, and also pain, like you really want to create a lot of pleasure and good feelings, you want your baby to have good feelings, so that they want to be here, that's really important. So you're kind of, and of course they are having a lot of, they're dealing with the situation of impermanence lack of control and pain all the time, but somehow your job is to somehow also hold those things at bay as long as you can. And then also dealing with your own neurotic, self-centered anxiety that's going to keep coming up all through your life. Like, what does this say about me? Or how is this about me? How is this for me? Letting that circulate, letting it all circulate.

[17:49]

So there's a natural order of mind kind of anxiety, or maybe we should say concern, because that's not as scary of a word. But anyway, you know, as giving this talk, I have a natural concern to do a good job, serve the Dharma to encourage people, to encourage you, that's natural. And to be, you know, a little worried about that, a little bit worried, have some energy and attention on how am I going to do this in a good way, in an encouraging way. So that's natural when you're the Tenzo, like this morning, you naturally are worried and anxious about how that breakfast is going to go, how is it going to work. So these are natural natural, true anxieties, you know, as Bodhisattvas we're concerned with the welfare of all sentient life, as it says in the Sutra, as a mother at the risk of her life watches over and protects her only child.

[18:59]

So, we're moving towards that kind of anxiety and moving away from the one about how is this for me, how is this going to make me look, or how is this for me? And even though they're all operating, it's kind of, you know, there's this teaching that I heard first in a category Roshi book, but we also were studying this book by Shohaka Okamura called Living by Vow, and the idea is that There's two ways to live. One is to be pushed around by your habitual tendencies and your karma, and the other way is to live by vow. And of course, we are always going to live the first way, no matter what. But for us, our practice is to put more and more energy and attention and strength behind our vows, our vows to be connected to everybody, to each other,

[20:13]

to be concerned about all sentient beings, to wake up in this moment to the truth of what's happening. One of the practices I had when my children were little and I was trying to manage all the different kinds of anxiety associated with that was I had this mantra that I would say to myself, safe, healthy, thriving, and whenever I was in a situation where I was anxious and I couldn't really do anything. And you know how they say, worrying is praying for what you don't want to happen. So to try not to be worrying, I would have this mantra, safe, healthy and thriving. And that was one of the ways I watered the seeds of non-anxiety. And then I've been thinking so much while I was away about what it's like to live for many, I feel very honored and lucky to have been able to live for many years in a sangha, in a large-ish, somewhat large-ish sangha, I think.

[21:26]

And over 20 years I've lived here, I think that just about every single person has been in crisis at one time or another, including myself, some kind of crisis. And so, I think it's a version of this, there's this story about Shakyamuni Buddha and his, a woman named Kisa Gotami, whose son died, and she came to the Buddha with his body and said, please bring him back to life. And he said, okay, I will, if you can bring me a mustard seed from every household. Oh, really? Yes, from even one household. from even one household where there has been no death experience. And she goes around door to door, and they're all, I'm sure you can have a mustard seed, but oh no, my grandfather died a month ago. And she, over that practice of doing that physical practice of going door to door and connecting with these people, she was awakened to this sort of more ultimate truth of what was happening for her and found a way to

[22:37]

to cope with it some way. And so I feel like in the Sangha it's more than death, I mean it's something, it's any number of things that can go wrong with your body, with your family, loved ones, friends, you know, I mean it's just so fast. And I think what I've noticed in myself and I think I've detected in other people is there's like an initial wait, this is not me, this cannot be happening. You know what I mean? Do you agree? It's like, that's the first thing, it's like, no, no, this, like a few years ago I injured my knee and I had to sit in a chair and all this, and there was just this moment of like, no, this is not who I am, I'm not someone who has a sore knee, you know? And then, that's the first thing, and then there's this process where you find any number of ways to deal with what's happening and even turn it, what we would say in our practice is turn it, turn it to some kind of waking up and it can take many, many different forms, many forms for each person and different people have different forms.

[24:01]

So that's what I would say is the habitual, you know, to say this is not me is a natural karmic response to the situation out of habit of mind. I'm habitually this kind of person and I'm not this kind of person. So that's that way. And then to be able to pick up your vows of what is this? What is going on? you know, for me with my knee, a lot of what it was, I was in my body a lot more, because pain pulls you into your body, and you're just in your body. And so I thought, okay, well, I guess part of this is just being in my body more. One of the many things. So, I'm not sure where I want to go. How much more time do we have? So I mentioned this inner bully, my own inner bully, and I think a lot of us have one or more inner bullies.

[25:16]

I think if you take a look, if you get to know your inner, when we get to know our inner bullies, we find that they're really trying, just trying to protect us from something. They're really protectors that are a little bit maybe in over their heads or something. You know, do you... Sometimes when I'm watching the news I see people who are in charge of countries and governments like, how did they get that job? It seems like you just have to be the biggest bully or the biggest con artist or the biggest gambler and people give you the job of running something. It's like crazy, really crazy. So I think it's maybe not the same but with our inner bullies it's like we need to coax them to realize that maybe there's a new sheriff in town or something. You don't have to do this. You don't have to protect me this way.

[26:18]

I'm going to take care of this situation another way. A lot of us have taken yoga here and there, and there's a thing in yoga where you realize that you're holding some muscles that you shouldn't be holding, and there's other muscles that are flabby that need to be strengthened. So I feel like that's a parallel with this idea of the vow. There's this karmic muscles that are activated, and they're trying to deal with this impermanent situation of lack of control, and they're just tightened, and they're trying to deal with that. and then the other muscles, like the muscles of our bow, are not strengthened. So we need to, once we strengthen and have, you know, it's sort of like the difference between, for me, my shoulders get tight, you know, and that they think, I sometimes I can notice there's,

[27:25]

I can get a glimpse of what I think that's doing. It's doing something to protect me. And I could, you know, you could look at me and you could be really clear that it's not doing anything to protect me whatsoever. But inside, that's how it feels. This is protecting me. So somehow I need to make this. I need to have the strength here. And then maybe the shoulders say, oh, okay, fine. someone else's running is in charge, that's good, because I didn't really know what I was doing there. And maybe that's how we can work with our inner bullies, too. Yeah, you've done a good job, thank you very much, all these years, but now, I've got this. Someone else is gonna say, I've got this. You can get a new job, or take a break, vacation or whatever. Retire. Retire. So, that's all I had and I'm really curious to hear what you have to say about any of this.

[28:36]

Yes, in the back. Is that Charlie? Hi Charlie. You were going to talk about the three personals, but you didn't mention anything about the trans person. Well, actually, the transpersonal is the vow. The transpersonal is the non-anxious presence. So it's the non-anxious presence. It's the vow to wake up. The vow to connect with each other and be concerned about the welfare of all sentient life. I didn't realize it was labeled that way. It's not so highfalutin, actually. It sounds it when you say transpersonal, but it's just the kind of things we're trying to do. Yes, Megan. Do you think that the bullies want to retire and want to take the vacation or are they relieved that there's a new sheriff in town? I've experienced that.

[29:37]

I don't know if I could say about all of everyone's inner bullies, but I have experienced that sense of relief, you know, a sense of some part of me When, you know, I was anxious about something recently, and I tried really hard to connect with myself, and I was having a hard time to connect with myself, and I finally just said to myself, yes, we are very vulnerable. Yes, we are incredibly vulnerable. And somehow that was, that part of me that was like, you know, trying to get some, you know, control over the situation, said, OK, OK, thank you. Yeah, and now it's sort of like, I don't have any ideas, so you deal with it, is what the bully's saying, you know, or, yeah, thanks. I was getting tired or something. But it might be that there's others that, you know, would be more like a dictator in a country that couldn't let go no matter what, you know, I don't know.

[30:42]

But let's, you know, Do you have any that you've ever encountered, and how have they reacted? Well, I think mine seemed to kind of want to be in charge. More reluctance to give up the hat. Yeah, yeah. William and Kate? I don't know if you saw, did you see the movie The Life of Pi? No, I didn't. loose metaphor of it, it's his fears and anxieties. I'm going to give away part of the book. But like most books, he works through it. And it's interesting that at the end, the tiger just walks away, which is like his fear. He doesn't look around, doesn't say goodbye.

[31:44]

Yes, there's resolution, because there's no longer the fear, but it's not something precious or special. Yeah. Which is maybe a little different than saying it doesn't want to do that job or it wants to retire. It just kind of dissipates almost in a certain way. It could just be, yeah, I can imagine that just kind of But there's probably one underneath. They're still in charge. Still thinking they're in charge. They never were in charge. They've never done anything to help the situation, really. Or maybe they have. I don't know about that. Maybe they have helped. But they've never really been in control. So Kate, and then I think Peter, and then Katie. Thank you very much for your talk. I'm so sorry I mispronounced it. Well, first of all, I absolutely love the inner glories of a protector who's in over his head. That's wonderful. Thank you for that.

[32:50]

Years back, when I was very, very anxious all the time, I had on hand a self-help book with an index. And I wasn't even sure what I felt, but I was pretty sure it was not good, and anxiety seemed ring a bell, right? And so I looked up anxiety in the index. And the canny author had written, anxiety, see fear. And that makes a lot of sense to me. So what I want to ask you is, do you see any difference between anxiety and fear? And if so, what? Well, that's interesting. I gave part of this talk as my practice talk, because one of the things we did during the training was give the talk and have it critiqued by the teachers and such. So I gave part of this talk and Grace actually said there's a difference between fear and anxiety and her version was that anxiety is always about something delusive or it's always about confusion about how things exist and fear is something more like you have fear when there's a real threat.

[34:04]

So her version was anxiety is unreal threat and fear is a real threat. I just don't know, I'm not sure. I mean, when, you know, there's this book Buddha's Brain and he, so maybe when we say where our fear of impermanence is that, that's an unreal threat, maybe. That's because it's not the, I don't know, to me, I just don't know. I don't know if I'm that clear on a very clear difference between like, so in my story, would you say that my fear when my daughter was in the hospital was that was fear of a real thing as opposed to my neurotic machinations, which were anxieties. But that doesn't really resonate for me, but maybe it does for others, I don't know. I think maybe there's a continuum from anxiety to terror or something, and fear is in there somewhere. And sometimes it's about real things and sometimes it's not. So, Peter. kind of practice of watering the seeds of non-anxious presence.

[35:19]

And in connection with that, it seemed to me that wanting something can be a source of anxiety, but also you can flip it around and it can be a source of joy. And that's maybe, that side of it is, if you really look at what the wanting is, It seems like you're wanting something life-serving in this situation. Yes, to express. Oftentimes it's just to express something. And so turning attention to that, for me anyway, my anxiety is about security in relationships. So if I kind of flip it around that way, I feel like I can move. I like that, so kind of what you're saying is rather than there's this over here and then you water these seeds over here, other sources of, which is kind of the way I was framing it, you take the thing itself and find the source of non-anxiety within the thing itself.

[36:26]

Yeah, I'll work on that. That's a good idea. I like that. Katie? I'm thinking about how I kind of go through a process daily where I I get up and I do my work and I'm in this phase of life when my work is intense and very solitary and anxiety producing. But I deal with it and I do things and I screw up and I come back from it and it's more or less fine. And then I sit here in Zazen in the afternoon of 5.40 and most days, some ways into the period I realized that there's this, like, mission control mentality that is trying to direct my Zazen. Saying, like, okay, so, what do we do in Zazen? Do this? Okay, you know, that's kind of what it is. The do, do, do, in control persona that I take on to do my work tries to do the Zazen.

[37:29]

And then I remembered that I can actually just relax and be and that it's not about finding the perfect zazen. It's about whatever's going on. And then I relax. So that becomes clear in a period of zazen, hopefully. Is there a way to work with it in the course of the busy day when I do have to do something? Some way to have that kind of bully relax. That's a good question. Maybe to the extent that it, I mean, I wouldn't think it's necessarily, I wouldn't necessarily assume it's not a good thing to have happening while you're working.

[38:31]

It might be the part that, you know, some part that's doing that and that's okay. And I guess I would want to feel my way in a little bit further and see if it's extra or not, and explore. I mean, I guess just connect with it a little bit more. You know, if you take little breaks, will it drop away, you know? If you go take a 10-minute walk or get a cup of coffee or whatever it is that you do to take a break, Is it sort of like, and now I'm going to drink this coffee, and now I'm going to take this walk, you know? Or can you break through at other times? I mean, I'm familiar with what you're talking about. But it's sort of circumstantial, and the degree to which it's circumstantial and dissipates when you're in other conditions is the degree to which it's an okay thing that's just one of your inner resources, you know, that's operating when it needs to be.

[39:39]

Yes, Judy and then Linda, if there's time. My question is around this thing of talking of practice in terms of the framework, let's say, of Buddhist psychology or family systems theory or cognitive behavioral therapy or picture framework. And at the same time, I'm wondering how all of this for you meets just showing up energetically in the Hara, just that thing of not knowing and being with what's happening in Zazen or the way of Zazen, 24-7. What's the connection? What's your practice, so to speak, in terms of you know, like the shoulder thing, right?

[40:43]

So I could go to my framework, which might be voice dialogue or non-violent communication, and be asking, you know, what does the shoulder value? Or cognitive behavioral therapy, is that the inner child? Is that the wounded, you know, is that the pusher? Is that the inner critic? I could go there. Or just let go. If you can. But, you know, I think it's tricky. I think that's good if you can. And yeah, yeah, just come back. And if you can just be in the moment and enter the moment fully and inhabit your experience, yeah. But there's like a near enemy of that, right? Which is shove it away or push it down or put it in a category of not goodness. And so I think that's kind of what the spot training was about, was not having a preference for what you just said as being a more Zen or more Buddhist or more real response, but being able to do both depending on circumstances and appropriateness.

[42:02]

have circumstances, which you never know, but you know, sort of like the freedom to do that or not depending. I'm thinking of two points that I think are related, but when Katie just spoke, I was thinking that we experience in the Zen Do and work out of the Zen Do is pretty different, because in the Zen Do we don't have anything to do and we're supposed to not do anything. But, you know, they actually intersect. Like today I'm supposed to be the Saturday director and I have a list of things I'm supposed to do and I forgot to get you an introducer and, you know, a few other things. So it's really like the rest of life. That's one thing. And then about the thank you so much for sacrificing your Zazen to be our Saturday director and be entering that state of mind. It's such a gift.

[43:03]

It's such a generous gift. It really is. And I think anybody who's ever been a Saturday director knows that. So Zazen is just like life. That's one thing. And then about this inner bully or this anxiety, there's this kind of paradoxical problem or this unsolvable koan-like problem about being a non-anxious presence. Because when you are in an anxiety state, by definition, you are not going to be present. And so when I think about the symptoms of that state, they're awful, you know? They're physical symptoms, they're things that are happening in the brain. So I was just adding, you can just comment on this if you want, that what person we're calling a bully, how do you relate to the bully?

[44:08]

Megan will say. I think it's like your baby, you know? And just that bully will only hear us if we are kindly, if it realizes that we actually have some love or compassion. And that's the only moment that that defended thing can be vulnerable. That's right. But in a way then what you're saying is you are being a non-anxious presence for yourself. Yeah, that's a secret. It's a very mysterious thing. It's the mystery, you know, the mystery of what we're doing here really. Leslie. I was thinking about at the beginning you were talking about not shutting things away and letting things circulate like our bullies, our anxiety.

[45:18]

And that goes out into the world. You mean letting that circulate outside of us, too? Well, I'm wondering if that applies to that. Because then I was thinking about our dependent co-arising and how things are circulating and constantly changing. And if we find a way to not hold so tightly, like, come back here. This is who you are. You need to stay and protect me. Allow things to change, which is really hard sometimes. I didn't want that response of it, but wanted to come back because that's what you're used to. So I'm just wondering, and this kind of relates to what Peter was saying and others too, about it's all such a mix of things, but we also have this ego where we're used to things a certain way, but... Well, it's right, but it's not there really. It's not really there, yeah. Right. So I just wondered if you had any more to say about that part of it.

[46:19]

As soon as you start talking about, I mean it's really interesting, as soon as you start talking about self and other, you come up against the mystery that there's actually no line there. Right. So you can't go very far, which is why this works, the non-anxious presence, because you're bringing something from a bigger place, the transpersonal realm, through your body into the circumstance, and there's no line, so it's flowing, I mean, I can't even use the language, right, but, so other people's, so it's easy to get anxious when the other people around you are anxious, so how do you let that circulate Let that be circulating and still have your vow, you know, and have it not be like something that you're holding on to tightly somehow, but that it's a musculature that's developed so that it's holding you up somehow.

[47:23]

Yeah, tricky. Thank you. Okay, thank you all very much.

[47:29]

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