Higher ground to take. This morning I want to present this case from the Mubangkong titled, Dungshan 60 Blows. This Dungshan is not a Dungshan

[01:14]

of our school, but a different Dungshan, who is also a somewhat famous Zen master, but not much is known about him. And this is a dialogue between this Dungshan, And Master Yunmen, who is one of the most prominent teachers of Zen in China. And Doshan has been traveling around for a while, from one place to another. And he finally ends up at Master Yunmen's place. And they have this dialogue. Dongshan came to see Yunmen.

[02:20]

Yunmen asked him, where were you most recently? And Dongshan said, at Cha Du. Yunmen said, where were you during the summer? Dongshan said, at Pao Zu Monastery in Hunan. Yunmen said, when did you leave there? Dongshan said, August 25th. Yunmen said, I spare you 60 blows. The next day, Dongshan came again and said, yesterday you said you spared me 60 blows. I didn't know where I was at fault. Yunmen said, you rice bag. You'd go about all the time, now west of the river, now south of the lake, looking for something.

[03:23]

With this, Dongshan had a great awakening. And then Master Mumon, who was the compiler of this record, said, if Yunmen had provided essential fodder at that time, and awakened in Dongshan the one path of vitality, then Yunmen's house would not have been vacated. All night in the oven, excuse me, all night in the ocean. Either way is okay. All night in the ocean of yes and no, Dongshan then struggled to the ultimate. As soon as dawn broke, he went again to Yunmen, who explained everything in detail. Even though Dongshan had realization, he was not yet brilliant. Now let me ask you, should Dongshan have been given 60 blows or not?

[04:34]

If you say yes, then grasses, bushes, and trees should all be beaten. If you say no, then you make Yunmen a liar. If you can be clear about this, then you and Dongshan exhale Qi with the same mouth. And then Master Uman has a verse. He says, the lion rejects her cup. She kicks it away and dodges. The second arrow connected beyond causation. The first was light, the last one deep. So, the question here, you know, is what does a teacher expect of a student?

[05:45]

What does a student expect of the teacher? What should Dongshan have answered when Yunmen asked him the question? He asked him the same question three times. Variations on the same question. First he said, Where did you come from recently? Sometimes we say, where are you coming from? But it has a kind of double meaning, right? Where is he coming from? You're not saying, where is he coming from? You're saying, where is he? Where is this person at? Where is he coming from? What's the source of his... responses.

[06:51]

I think you can construe this question in this way. Jungmann is not saying, where did you recently come from, even though that's what literally it is. Where did you recently come from? It's more like, where are you coming from? If you put it in that way, There's a meaning beneath the literal meaning. But Dunchan has to decide. How am I going to answer this? If he's a good student, he'll think, how should I answer this question? If he has no clues, he'll just say, well, I came from da-da-da. Apparently, he had no clues. But Yutman thought he should have a clue. Here he has been traveling around, visiting this teacher in the south of the lake and west of the river.

[08:00]

There was an area in China called south of the lake and west of the river. West of the river and south of the lake, yes, where many Zen monasteries were. And the students would travel around from one place to another. And that was their practice. After they had been in one place for a while, then they would pack up their bags and go and travel. And sometimes they would do this during the summer, and then in the winter they'd spend in the monastery. So this is what Dungshan had been doing, traveling around. And one can travel around and around looking for the perfect teacher, or looking for the perfect situation and never find it.

[09:14]

Or one can travel around and never settle down within themselves. This is more the problem. Once one starts wandering here and there, you get the feeling that pretty soon you're going to find it someplace, what you're looking for. So when this monk Deng Xian arrived at Yunmen, Yunmen's place. He found a stone wall. He couldn't go any further than Yunmen. Fortunately for him, Yunmen stopped in cold. So Deng Xian said, Deng Xian came to Yunmen and Yunmen asked him, where were you?

[10:16]

most recently are, where are you coming from? I like that. Where are you coming from? And Dungshan said, Cha Tu. Not a very good answer. Yunran said, where were you during the summer? And Dungshan said, at Pao Tu Monastery in Hunan. He could have said, something else. He could have said, teacher, I'm standing right here in front of you now. What is all this questioning? Let's get on with it. That would have been a real spirited answer. When a student first comes to a teacher, When you have your first dokasan, the teacher says, where are you coming from?

[11:20]

Where do you live? What's your name? All these questions, which you should answer. I live around the corner, not far from here. I ride my bike, you know. I'm married and I have two children and I work. What should I do? This is a little different situation. And every situation calls for something else. No two situations are the same. No two students are the same. And you can't treat everybody in exactly the same way. Although, you know, some teachers are noted for treating everybody in exactly the same way. The famous one finger's in for every answer. But you can't do that. Get your finger cut off. You have to have a unique response to every situation.

[12:25]

You can't copy somebody else. So please don't copy Yunlin. So then Yunlin said, well, when did you leave there? He's still trying to be kind to Deng Xiang. but he's beginning to lose his patience. Not lose his patience, but beginning to feel it's time to wind it up. And Deng Xiang says, August 25th. And Yumin said, I spare you 60 blows. Some translators like to say, He gave him 60 blows. Sometimes you can go either way in a translation.

[13:29]

Whether he gave him 60 blows or withheld 60 blows, it's all the same. 60 blows would have hurt. But withholding 60 blows hurt even more. Because a good student wants 60 blows. What is 60 blows? You know, Dasha, Master Dasha is famous for giving 60 blows to whoever came. He said, whether you're right, whether you answer correctly or incorrectly, you get 60 blows. 60 blows is something that we're always receiving. 60 blows is the pressure of the universe on our lives.

[14:47]

60 blows means realize who you are. When we're really challenged, we come to life. Hopefully. Hopefully, when we're really challenged, we come to life. If we're not challenged, we don't really come to life. So life is a challenge. And when we really engage, we receive blow after blow, as you probably know. You've probably experienced this already. So, tozan, uman sixty blows, are something that a good student really wants. It means engagement. Vital engagement. Suzuki Roshi used to walk around Zendo when I was studying with him.

[15:50]

and just hit everybody with a stick. One after the other, bam, [...] bam. The whole zendo came to life. Everybody was very happy. People think that hitting with a stick is punishment, but it's not punishment. That's why he didn't give him the 60 bucks. I punish you by not giving 60 bucks. So then the next day, Dongshan came again. He went home. He went to his room. And he struggled all night with this problem. Why did he spare me 60 blows?

[16:53]

Why did he punish me like this? He's feeling really... This is a big koan for him. Yunwen gave him this big koan of withholding 60 blows or giving him 60 blows, either way. Good or bad. Doesn't matter. Right or wrong. Doesn't matter. 60 blows. Withholding it or giving it. Same. So The next day, Dongshan came again and said, yesterday you said you spared me 60 blows. I don't know, where was my fault? Tell me, where was my fault? What did I do wrong? The young man said, you rice bag.

[18:01]

You go about in such a way, now west of the river, now south of the lake. At this, Tung Shan woke up. What was his awakening? When did he wake up to it? This has to do with his wandering around. What is the bottom line of our practice? This is a very important question. What is the bottom line of our practice?

[19:04]

What are we doing? Why do we spend time sitting on a cushion? and studying Zen and Buddhadharma. What are we seeking? What was Tungshan seeking? And what is it that Yunmin had that he knew what to do? The teacher should know what the bottom line is. When someone comes, the teacher should be able to meet everyone. Every person should be met. And you should be able to meet each person and know how to deal with that person. How do you know that? What knowledge is there that gives you this ability?

[20:09]

And is this what Master Dungshan woke up to? I think so. So when you, when people come to you for interview of some kind, if you're a teacher of some kind, How do you know how to respond to people? Because you have nothing. When someone comes, you have no suppositions. Mind is just open, nothing in it. And then someone appears. And then you respond from no place.

[21:22]

What you know is nothing. If you have something that you know, then it gets in the way. Because you're not trying to work with information, although information is used. You have to go beyond information. You have to go beyond thinking and feeling to come up with a correct response. Nguyen Minh said, you rise back. traveling around here and there, looking for something.

[22:28]

When are you going to settle down? The only way you can find it is by stopping. Stop everything. Where is that place where you're not going or coming? Where is the place where there is no going and no coming? When you find this place, you don't have to wander around anymore. You don't have to feel anxious anymore. You don't have to have fear anymore. You know who you are and where you are, and you know who people are and where they are. And when someone comes, you can see where they are.

[23:34]

When someone walks into the doksan room, you know where they are by the way they open the door, the way they leave their shoes, the way they walk, the way they turn, the way they bow, the way they sit, the way they look at you. But it's necessary to say something because it's verbal communication. But a teacher shouldn't answer questions. We do that sometimes, make a big mistake all the time by answering questions and sympathetically getting drawn into the problems you have. The biggest service that the teacher can do is to help you to find that place where there's no coming and going.

[24:40]

Then you know how to deal with your problems. Teachers should not help you to deal with your problems. But sometimes we have to do that. That's a little different than the main thing. And sometimes we get off and lose our way and start being psychologists. Psychology is necessary. But if we stop there, we're not practicing our practice. So sometimes it takes a long time to get to the real thing. Uman is a very good teacher. The reason why he's such a good teacher is because he cuts right through everything from the beginning.

[25:42]

So Master Uman is praised as maybe, you know, one of the top Zen teachers who ever lived. Because he can just cut through things so quickly and easily. Right away. Hard to do. Hard to do. And I'm sure that Master Umang didn't always do that. A student has to be ready for this kind of response. Every student is in a different place. This was this situation with Tungshan and Umang. because of who they were, and the time, and place, and the circumstances, this happened.

[26:45]

So, Master Yunmen says, I mean, Wu Man, Wu Man, said, if Yunmen, the teacher, had provided essential fodder, at that time, and awakened in Dongshan the one path of vitality, then Yunmen's house would not have been vacated. Master Yunmen, although he was one of the great Zen masters, his line, his lineage died out after five generations. So he's saying something like, if Yunmen had really treated Dongshan correctly, then he would have been one of his successors and the line wouldn't have died out. Well, this is a kind of obtuse way of praising them, which happens in these stories.

[27:56]

Another translation of this goes the other way and says, Um man fed Tozan Dungshan good Zen food. If Dungshan can digest it, Um man may add another member to his family." So this is just saying it in a positive way rather than a negative way. But it's saying, it's translating from the same statement. If Master is saying that Yunmen actually fed Dongshan very good Zen food. And if Dongshan can digest it, then Yunmen can add this member to his family, and his lineage will be preserved. But anyway, Yunmen's lineage is well preserved. We're still reading his words. 1996, January 20th.

[29:04]

Pretty good for someone that lived in the 9th century. Or maybe the 10th century. All night in the ocean of yes and no, Deng Xian struggled to the ultimate. Deng Xian This is talking about his evening of dis-ease. Unrest. Struggling. Why did you do this? What's my fault? What's going on here? And he looked at his own problem. This is an interesting point here. He didn't say, there's something wrong with Yunmin, or there's something wrong with this practice. Why is he beating up on me? Or he's saying, why can't I figure this out?

[30:05]

This is a really good Zen student, a real mature Zen student. Why can't I figure this out? Why can't I act right? Rather than putting the blame out there, he's struggling with himself. And this is a very important part of this case. He's using this koan to open his own mind. And that's why he was ready in the morning to be awakened. As soon as dawn broke, he went again to Yunmeng, who explained everything in detail The way he explained everything in detail was to say, you rise back. Traveling around, visiting everybody. That was explaining everything in detail.

[31:10]

Even though Dongshan had realization, he was not yet brilliant. Well, you can see this in several ways. Not yet brilliant is a kind of backhanded praise, again. Or it means even though he had an awakening, he still had the rest of his life to mature his understanding. I like that. It's a good response because no matter how much one wakes up after awakening, practice begins. Maturing your practice is after awakening. Now let me ask you, should Dungshan have been given 60 blows or not? If you say yes, then grasses, bushes, and trees, everything should be given 60 blows. If you say yes, no, if you say no, then Yunmen, then you make a liar out of Yunmen.

[32:18]

If you can be clear about this, then you and Dongshan exhale Qi with the same mouth. Qi is, we call this area the Sea of Qi. This is our vital breath, vital energy, primal energy. If you know where your primal energy is, then you can practice. And if you practice, you should definitely know where your primal energy is. In practice, we don't say, use your head, or use your heart, or use, we say, use your vital energy. Find your vital energy. Everything centers around your vital energy. Your mind, thinking mind, centers around your vital energy. Your body centers around your vital energy. Your breath centers around your vital energy. This is the important place.

[33:22]

When you know where the center of your being is, then all the other parts take their place around it in harmony. Then you can harmonize your world and you can see how things are out of harmony, out of balance, out of sync. In Zen practice, we teach people to hold a cup with two hands. When you have tea, you hold the cup with two hands and drink, even though you can easily do it with one. It's not easy to drink with one hand. It's just a little cup, right? Why do we have to use two hands? The important point is to be one with cup, be one with tea, be one with drinking, and drink from here, and act from here.

[34:43]

This is the place of truth. You can fool your mind, but you can't fool your true being. When you make a response, you have to make a response from here, even if it sounds funny, even if it is awkward. Lao Tzu says, the greatest eloquence is like Stumbling is like stuttering. So all of our actions should come from here.

[35:47]

When you walk, when you sit, when you stand, know where your center is. and carry yourself lightly. When you pick something up, how do you know this thing? How do you know this cup? If you grab it and hold tight, you choke yourself. You put some barrier between yourself and the cup. If you're ringing the bell, if you clutch the beater, you close off the vibrations. We taught to hold the beater lightly. Let the beater fall and do the work. You don't have to do the work. All you have to do is direct the beater to the bell.

[36:51]

Let the beater do the work. Let the thong do the work. And then it's loose and the sound is loose and vibrant. And you yourself become loose and vibrant. So the bell rings you as well as you ringing the bell. And when the bell rings you and you ring the bell in a vibrant way, everyone is ringing. All of us are ringing. And we all feel inspired. We say, what's the quality of a good bell? What's the quality of sound of a good bell to inspire us? These bells are made, a good bell is made by a flat piece of metal, bronze, and it's beaten in the middle and then pulled out on the sides as it's being beaten.

[37:59]

That's what all those little marks are around it. It's not cast. It's like made with a great deal of care and vibrancy. Vibrancy is built into the bell. And then you have a relationship with this bell, what we call a bell, and you have a relationship with the beater. And how do you allow those two to relate to each other? This goes for everything we do. sensitivity to everything around us, which comes from here, from our primal place.

[39:06]

So This is Qi. Something about Qi. If you can be clear about this, then you and Dongshan exhale Qi with the same mouth. You are two aspects of one person. You are you, and Dongshan is Dongshan. Yunmen is Yunmen. Yunmeng and Dunshan are not different.

[40:10]

And then Master Unmeng has a verse, the last verse. He says, the lion rejects her cub. This is the 60 blows. The lion rejects her cub. She kicks it and dodges away. Birds do this too, you know. A lot of animals do. The strong, they kick the cub away. Get out of here and see to come back. Push away and then see if they're strong enough to come back. So this is how they stimulate the spirit of life into the cub. And the bird drops pushes her young one off the cliff and starts flying, you know? Needs that stimulant. When the baby comes out, spank it. People don't like to do that anymore. They like to have babies underwater.

[41:18]

Now, you know? The old lady spanked the baby because it brings, it jolts them into life. They start breathing. getting all that stuff out. So, nowadays we have this thing, you know, that life is so brutal, you know, and people are so mean that there's a kind of rejection of these kinds of practices, you know. But strictly speaking, spanking the baby may not be so bad. And safety blows is not a bad thing. But I understand people's feelings. It can be a bad thing.

[42:21]

But the point is, to stimulate and make strong, we need to have Something. Something to go against. Some resistance. To get a good sound out of an instrument, the instrument should have some resistance. If it's too flaccid, nothing happens. And if it's too much resistance, that doesn't work either. You have to know just what the right amount of resistance is. You don't want to push the cup too far away. And you don't want to push it away and then leave, right? You push the cup away and see. Will it come? Yeah, there it comes. Coming back now. It's nice, you know? Nature is more brutal in some way than people.

[43:29]

lioness will actually leave her cub, if it doesn't work. But that's survival. And so it's a matter of life and death. Zygieresh used to say that strong students will will come forward. Sometimes the weak ones should come forward, and sometimes the teacher has to reach behind all the strong ones and bring the weak one forward, or the shy one forward. The teacher should be able to see over the heads of all those enthusiastic people and tap the shy one and say, come on forward. That's also necessary. When we read an example, we should understand the example and not think that it rejects all other ways.

[44:39]

But this is a good example. The lion rejects her cub. She kicks it and dodges away. And that's what, that's what Yunbin did. What did he say? He said, I spare you 60 blows. Get out of here." Suzuki Hiroshi used to say, sometimes we tell a teacher, the teacher says to the student, get out of here. But that doesn't mean that the student should leave. If the student leaves, he doesn't understand. It doesn't mean go away. It means, I think you're a great student. Go away. Get out of here. And then the student said, you can't make me get out of here. I don't care what you think, I'm going to continue practicing." So, we have to bring out the independence of a student.

[45:44]

It's really important to bring out the independent nature of the student right away, to stimulate that spirit. So he says, then he says, the second arrow connected beyond causation. The second arrow was, you rice bag. That's the one that woke him up. The first was light. I spare you 60 blows. That was the light arrow. Do you have a question?

[47:13]

Ross? I think it's important, as you said, to sometimes respond with not such a fancy Yes, this is, you know, when you read the koans, study the koans, you get these strange responses. You know, the teacher says something, or the student says something, and the teacher gives a response right away. And something crazy answers, three pounds of flax? It means it's straight from Something is conveyed straight from the gut, straight from the primal place, and it doesn't necessarily make sense in a rational way. When one understands where they're coming from, then it's good to visit people.

[48:45]

It's good to visit other places and other teachers. But if you're just going around from one place to another to collect information to put in your bag, and then you put together this medley of responses from people and use that as your basis, deserve to not get 60 blows. So think about staying in one place until you find what it is that you need to find, which you already have, until you discover or uncover your own treasure. then you can go around and talk to people. Yes? I don't know where this is coming from, but it goes, I know it's a pretty brutal world.

[49:51]

I feel like we're pretty polite with each other, pretty kind. So why don't you call me for the respect that I am? You guys beg. But you are. We all need different things. I call it as I see it. Nothing. Sometimes rice bag means something that doesn't move around and sometimes it means something that really sits strongly.

[50:58]

So you can use it in either case. You can use it as a lump that has no vitality or you can use it as sitting very strongly without moving. We should be very careful about right and wrong.

[51:19]

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