There are some reference volumes that are beginning to appear in the library, which you can, can you hear me? Which you can, if you can't, you can come and sit, anyone who can't come, can't, can sit in front here. I did put some reference works in the library. Quite a long time ago, Tetsugen Roshi from Los Angeles had a long seminar on the precepts with his students, with the students at the LA Zen Center. And there's quite a thick volume of his presentation and questions and discussion. It's precepts and ordination. So it's worth reading and very interesting.

[01:54]

And you can see how all of this pertains to us. So I put a couple of copies in the library in that reference shelf. There's not much there. There's not really a lot written on precepts that's terribly relevant that I know about. Of course, The Mind of Clover by Akin Roshi is the one text we have that really deals with the precepts in a discursive way. And I think that that's a kind of basic text, although I don't want to use it as a basic text. But for a reference, it's very good, and I encourage you all to read it.

[02:57]

I think it's a good basic text that if you're a Zen student, you should have in your Zen library. So tonight, I want to kind of summarize what we did last time, what we talked about last time, and then go on to discussing the precept of no killing, and the precept of not harboring ill will. And I'll explain that in the course of my talk here. So, last time we talked about the three treasures. Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. And we talked about them as the one mind, three bodies.

[04:03]

The three bodies being the Buddha treasure, the Dharma treasure, and the Sangha treasure. And Buddha treasure is the highest truth, or emptiness, or the true form, which is no special form. The true form of all things is no special form. This is called dharmakaya. And dharmakaya is essence. The Sixth Patriarch calls it essence of mind. essential being. And Buddha is the one who realizes this truth. So if you realize this truth, you are realized Buddha.

[05:12]

And the Dharma treasure is the form world. You can say that Buddha's dharmakaya is the realm of essence, which includes the form world, of course. But dharma is the interdependent nature of all things. So dharma is about things. Dharma is about how this world, the law of this world, But his teaching is Dharma because he talks about the law of interdependence and no self. And the Dharma treasure is Sambhogakaya.

[06:20]

which is your wisdom, as the Sixth Patriarch says. The Sambhogakaya is your wisdom. The Dharmakaya is your essence. The Sambhogakaya is your wisdom. And the Sangha treasure is the harmonious activity between yourself and the world. And the Sangha, of course, represents the harmonious activity between all of us. And the Sangha is nirmanakaya, or your actions. you are a nirmanakaya Buddha when your actions are totally harmonious and without self-interest.

[07:23]

So the Buddha treasure is the one mind, three bodies. Three bodies and one mind, or the three aspects of the Buddha mind. And the Dharma treasure is called the Three Collective Pure Precepts. Doing no evil, doing what is good, and saving the many beings. That's the Three Collective Pure Precepts. And the Sangha treasure is the Ten Clear Mind Precepts. which are both negative and positive. And these are the precepts which we maintain as human beings.

[08:32]

So that's a kind of quick summary of the Three Treasures and the various aspects of the Three Treasures. In the repentance karta, where we say, all my ancient twisted karma, from beginningless greed, hate and delusion, born through body, speech and mind, I now fully avow. We say that when we have ordination and when we have bodhisattva ceremony. So, body, speech and mind are the three vehicles of human being. So, the precepts, the ten clear mind precepts are related to these three categories of body, speech and mind.

[09:43]

So in this first category of body, we have no killing, no stealing, and no sexual misconduct. All three of these refer to the body. And this category of speech is no lying, no slander, no self-praise at the expense of others. And no abusive speech, which refers to the Three Treasures. Don't disparage the Three Treasures, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. So these four refer to speech. Yes? I can't hear you. Repeat. Oh, repeat them? Lying, slander, self-praise and abusive speech.

[10:49]

This is just written out. I just wrote it out as I thought about it. But I'll print it up and have somebody type it nicely and hand it out to you. And then in the category of mind, There's ill will, covetousness, and intoxication. So in this class, we have six sessions, and we want to discuss 10 precepts, the 10 clear mind precepts. So we have to kind of put them together into categories, or put them together so that we can do that all in this length of time. We may have to extend it. I mean, maybe we want to extend the class at the end.

[11:58]

But here's the way I thought about it, as it is. This evening, I wanted to do the categories of the precept of no killing and no ill will because they belong in the same category. And of course sexual misconduct also belongs in that category but I thought I would put it into possessiveness or attachment, into the category of attachments, which is stealing, sexual misconduct and covetousness. These are all precepts which refer to attachments and grasping and greed and avariciousness.

[13:08]

So that would be next week. stealing, sexual misconduct, and covetousness. Now, it may be that we could pick out one in this category to talk about sexual misconduct and taking what doesn't belong to you and covetousness in connection with that as the main subject. Because I know it's a big subject, and I think we may have to deal with it by itself. But those three precepts are concerned with greed, possessiveness, and addiction. And then the third And the session evidence would be lying, slander, self-praise, and disparagement, which fall under the category of speech.

[14:21]

And we can take those as one session. And then the fourth one is intoxicants, which is the category of delusion. Don't delude body and mind or self or others. and also selling spiritual practices intoxicating wine. Something wonderful that will make you feel really good. We should be careful not to get addicted to spiritual intoxicants. They're all over the place. And then I left one, the last session, without any uncovered, so that we can cover it with what's left.

[15:23]

In other words, leaving that open so that we can use that. as a, according to our choice. So that's what I thought we would do. And so we might as well do it. Unless you have an objection. You have an objection? You think we should do it a different order? We can just go down the line, you know, and do it in that order. But I would rather do it in this order. It seems more, if we're going to put things together, So, last time I asked you to think about... I didn't talk to you about ill will.

[16:38]

We just talked about the precept of no killing. And one thing I talked about last time also was the three aspects of... which is very important. the so-called Himayana or narrow literal viewing of the precepts and the Buddha nature aspect which is devoid of judgment and is totally non-dualistic and the Bodhisattva view of precepts, which is in between those two, which is a more innate request to do the right thing, considering both of the others.

[17:42]

So I would like to have examples of all three, if we can do that in our discussion. I mean, this is a huge subject. Each one of these presets is a huge subject. So we have to just have a nice discussion and bring up whatever we feel is really important here and try to get to some essential understanding and to see how we can do this in our discussion. So I really want to leave this for discussion. I don't want to fill it up with my talk. And I know that last time I said to notice how anger comes up in your life, excuse me, how killing comes up in your life.

[18:51]

and how you observe it around you, and to bring something as an example for discussion. And I would also like us to think of something in the realm of ill will, which I didn't ask you to think about, but which must be on your mind all the time anyway. It shouldn't be too hard to bring something up. But let's talk about killing first, the precept of no killing. I'll just introduce So I handed out these ethical principles from Zen Center, and it has the precepts.

[20:02]

And for each precept, It has both the positive and the negative, or both the prohibitory, so-called, and expresses our attitude, positive attitude. The disciple of Buddha does not kill, but rather cultivates and encourages life. So, we can talk about this from both sides. So does anybody have anything that you were thinking about presenting this evening? Please do so. Yes, Greg? I've been reading about violence in America and thinking about my own way I kill compassion in myself.

[21:07]

And the theory of this one psychiatrist Yeah. This was something that happened some months ago, and it happened again very recently.

[23:08]

It's the hummingbirds come to the low-lying bushes in our yard here, and they're just hovering and drinking from blossoms about 18 inches off the ground. And the cat is watching and waiting, and one time she got one. because they're still in the air. And so the cat can definitely track and pounce, and there goes the hummingbird. So when I saw that happening the second time, I saw it happen the first time. I was aware that it happened. I wasn't actually a very close observer of the scene, but I knew how it had come about, that the cat was walking around with the hummingbird in her mouth. But more recently, I saw it developing and it occurs, I did something, but it occurs to me that you could let it go entirely and that would be kind of the Mahayana way.

[24:16]

What will be, will be. Everybody's doing their natural thing. That's more the Buddha nature way. Buddha nature. Yeah. And What I did was make a loud noise and stop the cat's vigil, just interrupted the cat's vigil, and then kind of chased the cat, favoring the bird. That's the Bodhisattva way. I suppose there are other ways, but I interfered with what was going to be a killing. Well, what do you think of that? Is that okay or not? Yes, I think it's okay. The cat is not starving. The cat is just doing her natural thing, but she doesn't need to eat that bird.

[25:18]

So the cat was interfering with the bird, and you were interfering with the cat. Yes. Harmonious action of the Sangha. To just let everything happen the way it happens is inevitable. There are inevitabilities. And there's no law that the cat should not eat the bird. So in the realm of dharmic law, there's nothing that says the cat should not eat the bird. Cats eat birds. That's their relationship. But your relationship to the situation is your relationship. So you have to come out of your relationship.

[26:22]

If you can, whether you stopped it or didn't stop it, it may not be relevant. But you wanted to stop it out of compassion. So that made it relevant. But if you hadn't stopped it, it would have just been an act of relationship between the bird and the cat, and the cat and the bird. So there is no one answer. There is no right way. There's only the way that you choose, and then out of your conscience. That's a really good example. There's no right way, but there is the way that you feel is right. In my classroom, we're building terrariums. And so I brought soil and plants and all of this to work with kids. And after we built the terrariums, I start bringing in creatures to put in the terrariums, like worms and bugs and things to live there.

[27:26]

And my relationship is not so much with them, although I feel compassion for them, but watching the fifth graders, especially the boys, respond to that. They, you know, like, ooh, they drop it on the ground, they want to stomp on it, they want to pull the worms apart, you know, all this stuff. And I really suffer over that. Not that I haven't flung my share of snails. But I don't know, in the moment, how do I respond to Sean who thinks it's cool that the worm's hanging off and is going to dry up? Do I just say, Sean, I don't think you should do that to worms? You can say, Sean, let's see what it's like to pull your nose. How do you think the woman feels? I mean, you know, you could do that.

[28:30]

You could do something. I think boys will be boys, but they don't have to be. But right, they're also in a classroom being socialized. They don't have to be. I don't remember feeling good about doing stuff like that when I was a boy. I mean, maybe I'm different. They say things like death is cool. Oh, that's because of the nature of our society at the moment. Yeah, that's really there. Well, let's kill you then. Wait a minute. I was more like... I think I can try to get into that, you know, to understand that mind that sees that.

[29:41]

And there really wasn't, looking back, I don't see an evil intent as much as a real curiosity that was manifested in that way. And not being young enough to really not yet understand there are other living certain age before you develop that link that says, this might feel the way I feel and develop that. Well I think that with, that's right, with boys, there's not a lot of empathy up until they get to a certain age. Yeah, just that that hasn't been developed in them yet. I hadn't thought of this until she was saying, the boys were saying that was cool.

[30:49]

Last night I was looking at a program that was, I just have to mention this, that was talking about Charles Manson and how he is on the internet now and how his music is being published and poetry. And it was very interesting to me because, you know, I was just sort of struck dumb by the whole phenomenon, you know, and thinking, well, have people forgotten what he was involved in? And so there were several people that were sort of rationalizing why they were selling his music, or why they enjoyed his music, or, you know, it was it was very because I thought, okay, let me just get over my aversion to who he is. He had this beautiful voice, and I thought, wow, you know, this is confusing in a big way, you know.

[31:51]

And then it occurred to me that a lot of people that were liking his music were, you know, sort of young thrasher types, and they were not old enough at the time that all this happened. to sort of have the visceral reaction that we had to the chain of events that occurred. And the whole thing is fascinating to me anyway, you know, how he looked at death, how he was able to get people to see it in the same way, how in a way they didn't see anything wrong with what it was that they were doing. Yeah. You know, and I think that You know, these people appear to sort of make us look at our own selves, because I'm sure that a little bit of that is in everyone, whether we want to admit it or not. But when it's so exaggerated, it's so horrible to see. And I don't know how to think about it or anything.

[32:53]

It's just weird. All I said was, you know, I hope he never gets out, because I don't think that he is able to discriminate in terms of the acts that were committed. So this is the problem with having understanding of Buddha nature without understanding the law of Hinayana and Mahayana. Because if you only think that everything is okay the way it is, you know, everything is one, And no matter what happens, there's no good or evil. That's understanding Buddha nature. It's true. In the realm of Buddha nature, there's no good or bad or right or wrong, ultimately. But on the level of human beings, you can't go around killing people.

[33:56]

You can't go around doing evil things. This is where someone like Manson falls short because he does away with the balance and with the human factor. And people, you know, yeah, you know, killing's cool. This is becoming, you know, in a certain part of our young culture It's becoming what people really think about. I think they think that. And the media really plays up. And then the gun manufacturers say, here, take this. Go ahead and shoot somebody. It's OK. We have a big problem in our society.

[35:02]

And I think we have to teach people that it's not okay. I think you have to teach kids that it's not okay. But how do I do it without killing them? Yeah, that's your koan. That's the koan of your daily life. How do I give them something without killing them? There were two kids on bikes who were sort of testing the traffic to see if they could run into you basically or see if you'd stop for them or something. I'm not sure what they were doing, they were unsafe children.

[36:03]

I was concerned and looked at them and then they were giving funny faces and it was obviously They could see where I'm parking. What if they trash my car while I'm in this class? And I had all of this built up. And I could recognize it sitting here as killing. It was really like killing. It was hatred. And I really had to sit here with it. And something shifted about that. You know, they either did it or they didn't. It wasn't my control. It was out of my control. And somehow I could just let it go. And my hatred for them, this personal desire to attack them or protect my property or whatever that was, just disappeared.

[37:09]

Because I had been very afraid that they would do some harm to me. Harm to me. That somehow, you know, they could be... very bad young kids. And I didn't know. I had no idea. But I had to just say, well, I can't control it. I don't have any idea what's going to happen. So everything was fine. The car was fine. But that is so common, where this instant fear, hatred, some sort of misplaced protection It's okay to protect yourself, but the way I go about it isn't very productive. And I can see how it would be very easy to get violent with that kind of anger and fear. Well, you know, when we do get angry like that, that we block off our

[38:11]

nature. That's like killing Buddha. Excuse me, I couldn't hear what you said. Could you say, when we get angry like that, what? When we harbor anger or ill will, which is the next subject, we cut off our Buddha nature. Does that ever stop in one's incarnation? Does what ever stop? I mean, does one come to a place where there's no more harboring of ill-will spontaneously? Does one purify oneself to the point that that doesn't ever happen again? No, it happens, but you let it go. When ill-will arises, but one doesn't harbor it. Yeah, that happens. It's not necessary to harbor ill will. Emotions arise, you know, through our feelings.

[39:24]

Emote means to move. You know, some big feeling pushes, moves the emotion, the feeling into an emotion. And then we have to have a choice. Shall I continue this or shall I let it go? You have a choice. If you don't have a choice, then you're hooked. So you should know, do I have a choice or not? If you don't feel that you have a choice, then you're attached to the anger. And the anger is moving you. And one should always be in control so that Even though there is anger, it's not moving you. It's not pushing you around. And then you can use anger rather than being used by it.

[40:26]

Or you can use any feeling without being used by it. That's cultivating practice. When you say that one can use any feeling or one can use anger rather than being used by it, what do you mean by one can use anger? Well, you know, you may need to let someone know how you feel in a kind of firm way. So you don't use anger, but the anger reinforces your firmness. And you can transform that emotion for a use, rather than just being pulled around by it.

[41:31]

I kind of wanted to get back to what Greg was saying. We kind of didn't discuss it, and I'm not sure how to discuss it. Could you kind of make it a little succinct? feeling of extreme inferiority and something wrong with

[42:48]

Right, well, yes, yeah. We build more prisons instead of building more schools. Yeah, and education is one of the major factors in alleviating violence. Yeah, it is. Why? Right, and over and over, you know, more prisons, more bigger prisons, you know. And not federal prisons, but private prisons. So the people that build the prisons get all the money. And so we keep, you know, people, we actually, the society actually creates the conditions for criminality, and then, so that we can put the people in the prisons. I know that sounds extreme, but whatever you think of as the worst scenario, is what's happening. No, no, just only on the individual level. from a liquor holdup, or freeway rage, or home invasion.

[45:01]

It's bad, but it's a lot smaller than whole nations trying to obliterate each other with weapons of mass destruction. That's the big problem. And the thing is that people don't realize they're being conned by the people who supply the weapons. to teenagers, only F-15s to Rwanda. I would say also that maybe another major source of ongoing daily violence is probably, if you want to start comparing, worse than war in a sense is that the ongoing structural violence that goes on in every year, and between wars and during wars, you know.

[46:12]

I mean, it's, anyway. Yeah, and there's some purpose in poverty, which keeps the competitive wage down. Andrea? I just wanted to say it's 825. Okay. Should we uncross our legs for a few minutes? Well, I already did the rest of it. Take a more relaxed posture. Stand up for a few minutes. I think that it's time to bring in the ill will, anger or ill will. Anger is in the category of ill will, but ill will isn't necessarily anger.

[47:14]

But they're certainly associated. Killing can be done through ill will, or it can be actually benign. in that we eat lettuce and tomato, even if you're a vegetarian, you eat lettuce and tomatoes, and the cabbages scream when you cut their heads off. There's no getting around it. As we talked about it last time, I mentioned that everything is being eaten and eating. That's what this world is like. Everything is being devoured by something and devouring something. And new forms are being created through this activity.

[48:18]

So in one sense, in the sense of Buddha nature, this is the process of life. And you can't say that it's good or bad, or right or wrong. It's just the process of life and no one can stop it. and no one can make it go. We just go along with it as part of the process. All things break down and new forms are created. So it's important to understand this and live according to this understanding. At the same time, because we're human beings, we sometimes make rules about killing. We do make rules about killing. We don't kill each other. That's the major rule.

[49:21]

Except in mass. If you kill each other in mass, it's not such a big deal. But if we kill each That's what? We can kill others by selling tobacco. Yeah. Oh, yes. So that's right. So as much as possible, in an ideal world, we try to protect each other and to promote each other and to help each other. And the perverse of that is to kill each other and denigrate each other and trying to get ahead by eliminating.

[50:22]

But we're always killing something. We're always destroying something. And we, you know, it's interesting to empty the garbage. You go to the store and you buy this wonderful grapefruit, and then you cut it, and then you peel it, or however you do, and then you eat it. And then there's the part that you don't eat, and that collects in the little garbage can, and then you put it in the compost. And it all breaks down into something else. And the part that you eat is transformed within you. And then there's part that stays there and a part that leaves. And so it's all divided up into other properties.

[51:28]

And everything is moving this way. This is called the law of interdependence. Everything is depending on everything else, and moving, and supporting, and offering. We have a gatha that says, we pay homage to the three treasures and are thankful for this food, the work of many beings, and the suffering of other forms of life. And the other alternate way is to say the offering of other forms of life. So in some sense, everything is offering itself to something. This is a Bodhisattva way, is to offer. If you read the Buddhist Jataka tales, these are fairy tales, Buddhist fairy tales, But the moral of almost all the stories is Buddha offering himself to something, you know.

[52:36]

Hungry lions, or the hungry lioness feeding her young, you know. These monks used to do this, actually, in Buddha's time. They would offer themselves to the lion, use them for food, to feed the cubs. This is not something that we're advocating that you should do. This is a kind of extreme example of bodhisattva activity. So you can't think of the food we eat as offerings to ourselves. And they are, actually. Of course, the monk lives only on offerings from people. And we think, well, I go to work. And I make my money and then I go to the store and I buy my food, you know. And so I have a right to this and that because the money is the legal tender.

[53:39]

But actually, when you buy the food at the grocery store, it's an offering. And although we do pay for it with legal tender, it's still an offering. The, you know, innumerable labors brought us this food. So someone grew this food, someone planted the seeds, someone harvested, someone put it in the trucks, someone drove the trucks to the store, someone set it all up, and you come into the store and it's an offering. If everyone thought about it in that way, this is the egoless way of receiving things and of offering things. And sometimes you walk into a store and you feel that everything's being offered rather than everything's for sale. You know, the Monterey Market over in the west side of town is this big grocery store where they sell vegetables.

[54:50]

But it used to be across the street. in the 70s, before the 70s, it was just a little store, a very little teeny grocery store run by a Japanese couple and their family. And every day, a beautiful gray-haired man would walk down to the, early in the morning, and pick up the produce and bring it back to the store and present it. You know, everything was, everything, all the vegetables were in order and clean and beautiful. And there was always a line extending out the doorway in that little store. Every day you had to squeeze in the door because it was such a popular place. But here everything would be presented and received in that spirit of giving and receiving offerings.

[55:53]

It's like an offer. Everything was an offer. And we were always happy to pay for it. You never felt that you were, you know, begrudging. It's a wonderful harmony between the management and the customers. But we're always taking the life of these things, but we honor them as we take their life. I think this is important, and it's also, I think, always been important in the history of civilizations. I mean, American Indians have always honored the animals they kill, and they only kill them

[56:59]

for a certain purpose and realize that it's part of the, they feel that the animal is actually being offered. So it has a kind of sacredness to it. And there's no ill will to, and there's no indifference. I think indifference is killing. when your own feelings are dead, when you don't realize what you're doing, and when you have no empathy. So this precept of no killing in the bodhisattva sense means not killing your sensitivity. and not suppressing your feelings and your awareness and sympathetic feelings, compassion.

[58:13]

What would you say is the root cause of ill will? The cost? The cause, the root cause of ill will. Well, There are many causes. If I said one cause, I think that would be simplistic. But if we were to narrow it down to one cause, I would say our sense of self, our sense of not understanding that everything is ourself, are divided mind. If the mind is not divided, there's no ill will. I mean, you can't harbor ill will because you realize that whatever it is that you are angry at is part of yourself.

[59:23]

Well, where do our notions of good and bad really come from then? Where do they come from? They come from good actually means God and it means basically that which is not harmful and evil or bad means that which is divisive and harmful. And the root of evil comes from ignorance, of ignorance of the fact that everything is myself.

[60:29]

And we see, we only see other, and we don't see that other is myself. But that may not be the common idea of what good and evil is or where it comes from. There's certainly not consensus. That's why I said it's difficult to... But, whether or not that's the common idea, I don't care. I mean, I care, but... Well, how do you decide? I mean, do you decide on your own or just with other Buddhists? Or where does the idea that this is right and this is wrong comes from within the treasure? Right. Well, it comes from in here. But, you know, we have, because it comes from in here, the Buddhists of the past have said,

[61:32]

this, you know, it's got to come from somewhere." So then they wrote it down. They said, these are the rules, you know, and these are good things and these are harmful things. You know, it's been proven that these are so-called, and the good things are wholesome actions that promote life, and the bad things are unwholesome actions which deteriorate life. And that is within or without or with a sense of self? I mean, because our notions of what's wholesome might be all bound up in the fact that it's wholesome for me and myself. Well, it should be wholesome for you. Yeah, what's wholesome for you is in a basic sense. Not in a self-centered sense. No, in a basic sense. Because I am also, you know, one of these people. So what's good for people is good for me, and what's good for me is good for people.

[62:35]

And so we create behavioral rules. And we say, these are the things that are wholesome, and these are not. And then out of that comes law. And if you do these things, you go to jail. You're okay. So there has to be that in the world. Lao Tzu says, before people became self-conscious, there were no laws. Everybody just acted. But also, before there were laws, people would kill each other and nobody would say anything. And that still happens in primitive places. You know, oh, so-and-so killed somebody. Well, they all look around. That does happen. But in societies, there are laws about these things.

[63:40]

But sometimes the law gets so solidified that it becomes difficult. That's why there always has to be space for the people to make judgments, called judges. And they're supposed to make judgments. There's the law. It works the same way. There's the absolute understanding and then there's the relative understanding. And then in between, the judge says, well, I think given he's weighing these factors, we should do this. That's the way it works. It works with each individual in the same way. We know what's wholesome, or mostly we do, and what's generally unwholesome. And then we work within those rules, and sometimes we go to this side, and sometimes we go to that side. Sometimes we break it, and sometimes we can't help it, break it.

[64:46]

And then we feel ashamed. you say, and then sometimes if we can't admit our shame, and if we can't confess, then it starts to produce aberrations. That's why there have been confessionals. Originally, the confessional was to release you, you know, and return you to wholesomeness. But people, they don't like confessing. And then they start producing aberrant behavior without realizing it. And then they start killing each other for various reasons and acting mean to each other, like the drunk who comes home, beats his wife and beats his children every night. He's so ashamed of himself that he has to take it out on everybody else.

[65:49]

I wanted to go back to something you said, which has really helped me when I'm harboring ill, which is, well, for example, I was having a really difficult time with a coworker, and I was thinking, why is she doing that like that? And why can't she be this way? And why does she do that? And why is she like that? And I wanted to stop it. I was really just burning up about it. And she really wasn't doing anything. Yes. that entered my mind, you know, what, if nothing's outside myself, what is it about this person?

[67:04]

And then you can just change your attitude by just having some sympathy for this person, because behind every annoying person is a reason. You know, either with you or them. That's good to know. But, you know, behind every criminal act and behind every aberration. It's some reason. And if we try to get to the reason, and also we tend to, after the third time of something happening, we tend to stereotype the person. They're like this. And then we pin them against the wall, and they can't move with us, because this is, you know, this is who they are, and they can't move. And as soon as we have to let them up, then things can change, but we tend to pin them to the wall. And if you cannot let them, if you cannot let go of your pigeonholing or stereotyping of them, or your idea about them, then there's no way of relating.

[68:15]

So, I really appreciate what you said, you know. I've done the same thing. You know, somebody's so annoying, so I'm just suddenly realizing, well, I'm just letting this trip on myself, you know, and on this person. And I decide to be nice to them instead of always criticizing or thinking that they're doing something. And then the whole thing changes. And I realize it's me. They can change it. And I'm waiting for them to change, which will never happen. that often helps me is to really try to understand what that person's experience is like. And often the most difficult and rather annoying people, I think, God, they must just live in a hell realm. You know, to be so out of control of their own behavior and so stuck in their own very narrow world. And when I really try to imagine what that would be like for them, it really helps me

[69:21]

empathy, and also to see a way clear. It helps me to see skillful beings more, so that I'm not coming up against them. When I start seeing it from their side, then I can find a better way for us to work together. And I realize that I have more flexibility than I thought, that part of my lack of flexibility was sort of coming up against that. Right. Yeah. It makes life much more interesting. And there's a lot more freedom in it when you actually can do that. I find it for myself a lot, the issue of killing or encouraging life, and how I listen to people. Because often someone will come up to talk to me, like this happens at work all the time, I'll be doing something, someone will come up to me to ask me to do something. My immediate reaction is, you know, I'm like vibing, I'm busy. I try to not do that, to just drop what I'm doing and say, OK, what can I do for you here?

[70:31]

Because I feel so much my agenda of, I'm going to keep myself going and I'm going to keep this happening, and now I'm just knocking people down left and right. Not aggressively, but passively. I can't do anything, sorry. You know, many people are very needy. And then you feel that neediness. And when you feel neediness coming at you, you tend to, whoa, wait, stop. And so that's something to deal with. If I never listened to that person, I came here. that even though they're needy, what they need me to say is, well, I really think you can do it yourself. Yes, that's right. That may be what's necessary is to say, no. That's very compassionate. Can't be very compassionate to say, stop. You know, this is not the way to relate, for us to be relating.

[71:36]

We should be relating some other way. And get behind that. Yes, Mark? I've been working with therapists the last six months, and it's difficult to talk about what we've been talking about, because it kind of feels like group therapy, with everybody else being a therapist. But I'll try to say something. Just listen to your friends. Well, you know, in general, you know, there's three things. There's greed, hate, and delusion that make up, you know, basically Buddhist philosophy. I might not have been angry in another situation.

[72:48]

So when I find myself in that situation, you know, when I'm trying to push the whole world away, which isn't possible. I don't believe that. If I can keep a clear line and tell myself no, it will. And then the other area that I have is my body.

[74:47]

I have some areas from living too hard, or my physical life has some physical injuries. And I have to do my exhaust, and I have to do the same thing, not to divide my mind and my body, and try to use my mind to push against my body to push that pain out. And so I do the same thing, not to have any will against the physical pain in my body. And that makes the same transformation, though. It makes the same transformation. even though you say there's no relaxation in my back, at least it happens in my mind. I believe that.

[75:52]

That's what really helps. That's really great. I appreciate your practice a lot. But one thing you said that's interesting was, at the beginning you said about group therapy or something like that. I think that people should talk to each other about what's happening with them, to each other. You know, there has to be interaction with people so that you don't have to go to a psychiatrist to get some, you know, people just interacting with each other and listening to each other and talking to each other can do so much to help each other without trying to help, but just listening. I think that's really important.

[76:55]

And to be able to speak in this kind of situation and just, you know, everybody listens and nobody makes judgments. Helpful. Rebecca? For at least six months I've been thinking a lot about the old... ill will that arises in cars, in automobiles. I find it in myself. I mean, I find that I swear constantly while driving. Sometimes that's myself for doing something stupid. You know, and I go through these whole little dramas where, you know, How can that stupid ass do that? She practically killed both of us." And then I look at her and think, oh my, this is a poor gray-haired old lady.

[77:57]

And I think, just admit it, I'm a poor gray-haired old lady. But I see it in myself, and I see it in other people I drive with, and too many other people present. I mean, we know about rage on the freeway now, but I see it in so many people that I think of as Bodhisattvas. I mean, I think I have some ideas about it, but I'd like to hear what people think about it. I have a response. When I'm driving my car, I always do the same thing. But I don't take it seriously. I do not take it seriously. It's just, you know, venting. It's just venting frustration. It's not serious.

[78:59]

I do not hate the person. I do not dislike them. They just don't know how to drive. When I'm driving my car, you know, I say, these bicycles, you know, they're all over the place. And when I'm riding my bicycle, I say, these cars, they don't pay any attention to you, they cut you off. I was riding my bike up this little hill toward the house one day. I've told this story, it's infinite. And this woman was looking at me, and she just backed out of her driveway right in front of me. And I thought, My reaction was to do this. And I thought, but I didn't do it. And I thought to myself, here I am, Zen abbot. I'm giving a gray-haired lady a finger.

[80:06]

But I did have the intention. But I didn't act it out. And then I forgot about it. as a humorous thing. You know, we can be saints, but we're not. We're not saints. You know, we have all these feelings, and all these reactions, and we have anger, and we have greed, and blah, blah, blah. But we work with those. Those are the things we have to work with. If you're a saint, you might as well die. So this is the stuff that we're working with all the time. And it comes up, but we don't take it up. We don't follow it through. It's just static that comes up in our mind. It's not real. I mean, it's real thought, but it doesn't get transferred into actions.

[81:11]

And it does help us to think, well, it's not good to think this way. It's not good to have these reactions. And then it helps to temper. But I have to say, I do not take any of it seriously. It's just going from here to someplace else on a bicycle or a car, you just have all these frustrations. It's like being Italian. You get emotional over everything, but you don't take it seriously. I think we should be more easy on ourselves. You know, not worry too much about every little reaction that comes up. The main thing is, you don't take it seriously. It's just human reactions. Okay, it's nine o'clock. What was this last one? I can chop it. Okay. Next time... I mean, this is the way I feel.

[82:16]

You may feel differently. I don't know. Do you feel the same way? You're right. I mean, Mother Teresa does not have a driver's license. That's right. Who knows what would happen if she did? So the pieces that were distributed that everyone picked up, do you have some instruction? Or do you just want us to read those? Well, oh, the pieces that I gave you, those are lectures of Suzuki Roshi. I think two or three. The last gets swallowed at once. But they are Suzuki Roshi's views on the precepts, his understanding of precepts. So please read those. And next time we'll talk about greed, addiction, and possessiveness, under the heading of stealing, sexual misconduct, and covetousness.

[83:22]

Those are the three precepts. And this little book on the ethical principles covers succinctly those precepts. And then you can read The Mind of Clover, you can read those precepts in that and get yourself a good background. So you have a lot to study. And study yourself. That's the main thing. Study yourself, how these feelings, how these things come up in you, and what you do with them, and how you see it in others.

[84:08]

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