Let's pray. Let's pray. Good morning, everyone. Good morning, Ellen. Our speaker today is Ellen Webb. Ellen was born and raised in Berkeley and has been a dancer, choreographer, and teacher for most of her life. She founded the Ellen Webb Dance Company in New York City in 1970 and continued to choreograph and perform with her company after she moved to the Bay Area in 1984.

[01:13]

She lived with her husband in Oakland where they raised their two children. Ellen began her Zen practice with Joko Beck and Diane Rossetto in 1992. In 2002, she began practicing at BCC. She received lay ordination from Sonja Roshi in 2010 and was a Shiso in 2018. Her Dharma name is Maiko Kaishin, dancing with an open heart. Our ears are open to hear you. So welcome. Can everybody hear me? I just want to say that I'm appreciating these Saturday morning schedules in part just because it brings so many of us together.

[02:19]

And right now that's feeling especially good to me. people who are new or newer to Berkley Zen Center in particular, but also some people we haven't seen for a long time who are with us today. It's nice to have everybody here and also our sangha that's on Zoom this morning. So I think probably almost everyone, but perhaps not everyone, has heard that our avid and teacher, Alan Hoseley, has been in the hospital for five and a half weeks or so in very serious condition. First, he was in the ICU, and more recently, he's

[03:21]

Still in the hospital, but in less intensive care. And he's recovering somewhat miraculously and wonderfully. But he's still on some level of life support at this point. And so I just right now particularly good to be with you all. So I will say that Hozan's condition which came on quite suddenly or sort of shockingly I would say brought us opportunities to practice and also new ways to work together and to care for each other and to be together and I really felt that and noticed it and appreciated it really from everyone.

[04:23]

I also know that love has really poured forth toward Hozan and his family from the Sangha here, but also from really all over the world. Hozan has communities in Europe and Asia and different communities. A music, a whole music community as well as a socially engaged community and of course his many Buddhist communities. And I feel like some kind of spigot of love opened up in our sangha too. And I'm just gonna tell you my story about this. which is that I have known Hosan for probably 30 years. I've always considered him a friend and a Dharma brother, and more recently, you know, our abbot and teacher.

[05:37]

And I've always liked him. I've always liked him. But I think if he'd asked me, I would not have used the word love. I would not have said I love him. And just not the verb I would have used. So I first went and saw him in the ICU, which was really quite soon after he arrived there. And they were kind of being careful about how many people were visiting him at the time. And when I went in, I was actually alone with him, aside from the nurses and caretakers who were coming in and out. And when I went in, I didn't speak to him and I didn't touch him, but I just sat down in a chair quite close to him.

[06:44]

in a very deep coma at that time. He was sedated. And he was kind of attached to the most amazing number of tubes and monitors, you know, which is kind of not that unusual. It was really shocking because it had only been a short time before that I had been talking to him in the yard. You know, it was quite an adjustment, really quite a shock to see him in this condition. I sat down and just sat with him. I just kind of, out of the blue, felt this upwelling of love for him. And, you know, it was kind of a, you know, sort of unconditional love, which we talk about here.

[07:46]

in our practice, but I can't say I really, I know about it, and I know it's something real, but I don't experience it that frequently in this way. And I didn't just feel it for him. I felt it for him coming in and out. And I felt it for all the people, his family certainly, but, you know, there were many people from the sun in the waiting room, and They were people I knew, and then there was people I didn't know, like a sister I'd never met before, and I felt it for her. And I felt it, you know, the other people in the ICU who were lying in their beds and their loved ones who were, you know, waiting to care for them and support them. And I felt it actually when I walked out of the hospital toward pretty much everybody. down the street, it was still sort of real for me.

[08:48]

So it was quite a strong experience, and actually other people told me they had very similar experiences. It wasn't, I didn't have this, just me, it was quite a number of people mentioned something similar. And I've had this experience, actually I had it when my children were born also, and I've had it at other times, It made me wonder if when you're really in the face of life and death, you know, that's very real. This experience of oneness, of real connectedness and, you know, love is also becomes very real. Anyway, it did something at that time. And, you know, at this point it's not as tangible to me, it's not as visceral, but because I had that experience, I sort of feel like I know it in a different way than just talking about it or believing in it.

[10:04]

So that was kind of a gift to me. And I'll say another gift, and I use that word a little more hesitantly, is the gift of the opportunity to practice with uncertainty and not. When I first went to the hospital, we really didn't know if Hosanna would live or die. It was really, really uncertain. And, you know, even now that he's regained some We don't know the trajectory of his recovery. And, you know, we don't know if he'll be back here as our abbot. We don't know if he is, how long a time it will be. We don't know what the recovery will, sort of what the trajectory of it is, I guess.

[11:10]

You know, and actually nobody knows. The doctors don't know. And, you know, People close to him don't know. None of us know. And we don't know what will happen at BCC. What will change? What won't change? I'm gonna divert a little bit here and just tell a story. I was here in the morning early and I walked out. foggy morning and I was, you know, I was standing outside and I had another experience. This was just a few weeks ago where I'd had a minor car accident and I didn't know kind of, I mean, I mean, it hurt, but I didn't know, you know, what I had to do and what if the car would be okay. And, you know, and I was also thinking a lot about Hoson.

[12:13]

And so I, I was standing out there, and somebody came up to me and said, how are you? And I said, I feel like I'm living with uncertainty. And he said, Ellen, we're always living with a lot of uncertainty. And, of course, I know this is true. This is our teaching here, and this is our practice, that we live always within purpose. But I just want to say that much as I appreciate many things about this Sangha, you know, how we work together, how we care for each other, how we support each other, really how we're friends, the thing I appreciate the very most is the way that people remind us of our practice.

[13:14]

And it happens a lot. It really happens a lot. And this was just the most kind of informal exchange where, you know, I sort of in my head about it. And this other person just said, this is always the way it is. This is life. And, you know, it just sort of woke me up. And I just appreciate that so much. And so many of you make that contribution to me. And I know you make it. And really it doesn't happen so much with other people, you know, with the other sets of my communities. So I especially appreciate it. So back to uncertainty and not knowing. Last week I read in the New York Times, and this was an interview with a sociologist who focused on fear.

[14:16]

And he was talking about the fear in our culture, in our society. And he said, from uncertainty. Point blank. That was his thesis. So we practice with impermanence, but when things are changing and when they're unstable, and our is upset. Our minds get very active, or often they get very active. And I want to say here that that's kind of their purpose. That's the purpose of our mind, is to try to keep us safe and to keep us stable, to sort of understand what's happening. And it's part of our DNA. It's really what our mind does. So I'm not saying that we can get rid of it, but we can watch this desire to sort of hold on and fix things.

[15:33]

And I was thinking of that word as we want to fix things, but also we want to fix them so that they're stable, so that we know what's happening. to be certain, I think. And we want to turn things to stability, just, you know, to try to kind of make things, like I say, sort of known instead of unknown. And, you know, people call us, when the mind gets very active in this way, they call it the monkey mind. I think of like my playing ping pong with my grandson, who's three and a half, and his idea of ping pong is to hit the ball anywhere, anytime. So it goes to the ceiling and the floor and to the walls and under the bed and it rolls out. He picks it up and he hits it again and it's just like all over.

[16:36]

And that really can be the way that my mind feels. When that happens, we can notice where we go with it. You know, how much we want to know the future and how hard it is to let go of wanting that. And our hopes and our kind of prayers even, that things turn out in a way that we like and not in a way that we don't like. And we just say in here that one of the things that I've noticed is how much of that thinking is self-centered.

[17:40]

You know, kind of taking care of ourselves. Well, I'll just say, this is a quote from Suzuki Roshi, and it's from Zen Body Beginner's Mind, and probably many of you have read it many times, but it's one that I think of a lot. Thinking is rather self-centered, but sometimes it is not. This is from the original transcript. In everyday life, our thinking is 99% self-centered. Why do I have suffering? Why do I have trouble? This kind of thinking is 99% of our thinking. And I probably first read that 50 years ago. And at the time, I thought I was a pretty nice person and I really care about other people. But our practice is to study the self. And when I really watched it, it actually was shocking to me how much I was

[18:44]

And even when I was concerned about someone else, like, say, my children, you know, they were suffering. I realized I wanted them to feel better because really when they suffered, I suffered. And there's that great quote about, you know, you can only be an unhappy child. And, you know, so even though it looks like it's about somebody else, You really have to check it out. So I was listening to a talk by Steve and one of the things he said was that we come to Zen because we want to get beyond our self-interested thinking. I'll say that again. We come to Zen because we want to get beyond our self-interested thinking. And I just want to point out here, he does not say to get rid of it.

[19:50]

He just says to get beyond it. And I'll say that one way that we do that is through our zazen sitting practice. And I really think of it as a practice. Sojin used to say, You should always know where your breath is. But really, that takes practice. I won't say that I always know where my breath is, but that takes practice to pay attention to your breath in that way. And so when we sit, I would say this is really, we are in embodied practice, and we create the most stable base that we can create for ourselves, sort of a tripod in some way or other, which is sort of a grounding for all this busy thinking that can happen.

[21:03]

And then we sit up straight so that our spine is long. and our breasts can move down. And again, Sojin used to really emphasize allowing the breasts to move all the way down to the hara or to the lower belly. Think of my mudra as sort of a catcher or a dream catcher for my breasts, so I really aim it down toward my hands. And the hara, you know, in our culture, you know, kind of encouraged to keep our belly very hard and flat. It's really not possible to breathe into your belly if it's hard. So it takes actually some practice to let it go. And in Eastern practices, the har is sometimes referred to as the second brain. And you know, we say things like, I know that in my gut.

[22:11]

And it's a different way of knowing than knowing something in our mind. Maybe it would be something used to talk about that quite a lot. But I guess even science now is talking about the the belly as a second grain because, you know, the intestines manufacture 95% of our serotonin and that's the hormone or transmitter that, I guess it's both, I think, that regulates our mood and our cognition and our mental health. There's other important things, so, sort of, Connecting to that part of ourselves, I think, is really part of our practice to bring our breath all the way down to our belly to really make it a deep inhalation, deep, full exhalation, a letting go.

[23:29]

So maybe a little for me more emphasis on the exhalation. Probably not true for everyone. But it brings our awareness into our body. And much of the information that we have comes from our body. All of our feelings are fear. Our feelings of fear, our feelings of anger, our feelings of joy. We feel those in our body, our heartache, in our love. We feel those there. That's how we know. And actually, you know, we take in everything through our body, our eyes, our ears, our nose. So I feel like when we practice, we sort of shift the balance so that all of our attention isn't on our thinking mind. It sort of just into our body and actually sort of beyond.

[24:30]

So that, you know, the... the intensity, the urgency of the thinking mind kind of shifts and it becomes sort of less where our awareness is. Gives us a little perspective for me. I'll just say that there are other activities, and of course mine is primarily dancing, where one can have an experience of this where You know, it's not like your mind isn't, you know, you're counting, you're trying to figure out when you come in or when you leave or where you go. But your body is really in charge. Your body is really what's moving or where your attention is. And this is true in sports and music or other activities that people call being in the zone. where we're sort of more embodied, where we're getting information from other sources in our thinking mind.

[25:38]

Again, we don't get rid of this very useful mind, and we don't even get rid of our self-interested self. even though at times we would like to. And our mind is, or when we just notice how constantly it's working to preserve us, or just how self-centered we are. There are just times when we don't want to have it. And somebody said to me recently, I just wish for myself. And, you know, I know that feeling. But I'm going to tell a story, and this is a koan that is very well known, and most of you probably know it very well. It's actually quite a long story, and I'm only going to read part of it or tell part of it.

[26:44]

But it's been told by many people and commented on by many people. It's probably a story from, like, the ninth century. in China, and it's, I mean, it's interesting, it's been told over the centuries, but even now it's told in very different ways, and the commentaries are very different, which is kind of the, the nice thing about Coen's is you get to interpret them the way that you want to. And so this one is about Basso, who, very strong student. He was actually a transmitted priest at this time, theoretically. And he was a very big man and very determined and had a very loud voice. And he went on after this story to become a famous teacher and many people who went on to teach after him.

[27:49]

But this is early in his career. And He was sitting very determinedly in a hermitage. This koan is called polishing a title. His master, Nangaku, came to visit him. And as I say, this story sounds a little bit to me like he's kind of putting down Basuo in some way, but really Basuo was kind of, you know, a very successful and good student. a Dharma exchange than one might think. So Nagaku asked Basso, virtue is worthy. What do you aim at doing zansen? And sort of like, what are you doing? Why are we practicing? What's this all about for you? Basso said, I'm aiming at becoming a Buddha.

[28:51]

And again, I think This is kind of a common idea in, you know, many Buddhist traditions that you practice in order to become an enlightened person. This is from Okamura's commentary, free from being ego-centered. So you get rid of that self-centered part of yourself. And we're deluded. We want to become Buddha. We want to become enlightened through our practice. get there. So at that moment, at this moment in the story, Nangaku picks up a tile. And, you know, these were kind of old, dirty tiles that had fallen off the roof. People have different ways of interpreting the tile, but this is why. Apparently there were a lot of houses in China that burned down and the tile roofs would just crack and fall to the ground.

[29:53]

So they useless and dirty. And again, this sort of symbolizes our deluded self, and he picks up the tile. Basso says, Master, what are you doing? And Nagako starts to polish the tile, and so Basso wants to know what he's doing, and Nagako says, I'm polishing the tile to make it a mirror. And again, the mirror is sort of a you know, kind of the great mirror of wisdom that reflects everything without, you know, just as they are and, you know, doesn't claim or reject. So Vaso says, you make a mirror by polishing a towel. And Nangaku says, how could you become a Buddha?

[30:55]

by doing zanzen. And the story does go on, and I encourage you to look at some of the longer versions. This is actually where Suzuki Roshi stops in my beginner's mind, but there's a lot more to it, and it's kind of worth looking at. But I think, you know, the point of this is that we have this desire to get rid of part of ourselves, and our practice is really... much about not clinging, but also not rejecting. So that includes our self-centered mind. And this desire to not have these thoughts, this whirling thinking that we sometimes have, You know, we have to include that too.

[31:59]

So again, we can see beyond it, and we can even experience it, but we have to include it. You know, sometimes I like the idea of being patient with it. finish this part of what I want to say. I'm almost out of time. I'm getting there, yeah. This is what Suzuki Roshi had to say about this. When you are polishing a tile, that is enough. The purpose of our practice is not to make the tile a tool. As long as you are sitting, practice in its true sense. So it is not a matter of whether it is possible to attain Buddhahood or whether it is possible possible to make the thai a Jew.

[33:00]

And so Jungoshi said something sort of related, which is, it is called samadhi. This is the samadhi of sitting still and letting everything appear, but holding on to nothing. Samadhi is a state of being free. That's called freedom because there is not attachment to anything. And yet, it doesn't mean escaping the world. And speaking of escaping the world, I wanted to read one more thing. And I'm inspired to do this because, at least for me, another time when my mind can get very busy when I contemplate the state of the world. And I think particularly at this moment, kind of related to some of the conflicts that are going on, I go to like, who's wrong?

[34:06]

Who did the worst thing? Who's doing the other worst thing? What's the solution? Who should I listen to? What's the truth? And I can get caught up in that. And sometimes we'll just step outside of that or step beyond it. And this is a poem. And it's a poem that actually Jack Cornfield sent out, so some of you may have already seen it. It's by Rabbi. So today. I am taking sides. I am taking the side of peace. Peace, which I will not abandon, even when its voice is drowned out by hurt and hatred, bitterness of right and wrong.

[35:07]

I am taking the side of peace, whose name has barely been spoken in this winterless war. I will hold peace in my arms and share my body's breath, lest peace be added to the body count. I will escalation even when I want nothing more than to get even. I will do it in the service of peace. I will make a clearing in the overgrown thicket of cause and effect so peace can breathe for a minute and reach for the sky. I will do what I want. The life of peace. I will breathe through tears. I will swallow pride. I will bite my tongue. I will offer love without testing for deservingness. So don't ask me to wave a flag today unless it is the flag of peace. Don't ask me to wave a flag today unless it is the flag of peace. Don't ask me to wave a flag today unless it is the flag of peace.

[36:13]

So that's where I'm going to stop. And I would be happy to take questions or comments. Jim? Thank you, Ellen. If you could... maybe suss out the difference between liberation and escape? Well, I think... This is a funny answer, and I apologize a little bit. It's kind of a gut feeling. It's kind of, you know... That's what I think, that when you are escaping, and I do that, and I do escape, and I do escape.

[37:27]

I know when I'm doing it. I can feel it. And when I let go, and that's often letting go of the same things that I'm trying to escape from. It does feel like freedom. I guess that's what I have to say. Can you all hear now? Okay. And I'll put you on gallery so you can see other people. You can call anybody. So, Kabir. Thank you for your talk.

[38:28]

What is your take on... Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Hello? We can hear you online. Can the Zendo hear? Thumbs up. know, so we can hear you online, Kabir. Well, what is your take on embracing our fear as you would embrace a wounded child that is Because I believe that fear is also one of the survival mechanisms that we embody as a tool. Growing up in a war-torn country, Afghanistan, and making through the journey to America, I think fear plays a big role of our survival.

[39:42]

Yeah. And also... gives way to awareness. So I just want to hear your take on the relationship between fear and awareness. Thank you. Thank you, Kabir. As I said, I think these things are not things to get rid of. I mean, they are really important, and they are important for our survival, which is really important. But just like the mind can get overactive, our fear can, at times, not always, sometimes it really is essential and motivating and clarifying all of those things. we can let go of it.

[40:46]

And really, that's all I can say. I totally agree with you that it's really important. Thank you. Same. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I felt very comforted by your talk. I felt like the words of wisdom and deep love and, you know, I can feel a little door of confidence. You're always so kind.

[41:49]

Oh, well. Thank you. It's a profound talk for me. I really appreciate what you had to say. It's been so far. Yeah. My son-in-law died a little longer a month ago after a month and a half of having retired. I'm so sorry. And I, you know, they're two very different people, Hazan and Troy. And I'm so grateful that Hazan is with us and that we're so deeply and that we have this community. Thank you.

[42:53]

Thank you so much. Oh, I'm sorry, Susan. Susan. Thanks for your talk, Ellen. It seems like some of our responses to fear may come when we move towards wanting to control a situation in which fear arises. When Kabir was talking, I was thinking family showed great courage to lead their country, you know, in a situation they couldn't control and that there's kind of space inside courage or, you know, there was a lot of uncertainty in moving, right, in kind of making that journey to the United States.

[44:04]

what you think about space inside fear and how we can embrace that. Well, I guess I sort of feel like about, you know, having some space maybe, I would say, around everything. You know, that's, for me, kind of a gift of our practice. I would also say that control, in our DNA, we do want to control things, and sort of step back from that a little bit, I guess, and sort of open up the possibilities. And, you know, I don't want to put words in Peter's mouth, Opening up the possibility of leaving, you know, does seem like it really is helpful to me and has been helpful to me.

[45:17]

So I would probably agree with you, Susan. Thank you. Thank you. So I cannot see your name, but I know who you are. Go ahead, Kurt. yes uh thank you for uh your talk can you hear too much it's loud you can take it down a notch maybe whisper a little bit or a little less go ahead yes so thank you for the uh talk i always enjoy hearing you and uh resonate a lot with of allowing those things to be there that are there, right? Like fear or a busy mind. And in a way, when I'm practicing and I have that space, it's easier to allow them to be there when I kind of realize that it's not a choice.

[46:31]

They're not really mine in that kind of sense. If the fear was mine, then I could toss it off. Or if the busy mind was mine, then I could stop doing it. There are things I can stop doing. Just like I can't stop the sun from coming up and going down or the birds from chirping. They're just things that are happening. And it's when I identify with them so much that I feel like I can control them. start to have a lot of suffering around them. I wonder if you could speak to that a little bit, like you were talking about that space and maybe trying to be more of that space and not so identified with the things that emerge in it. Yeah, I guess for myself, and I do feel like this all evolves, you know, over time, that, you know,

[47:35]

I just think almost like the weight of it or the urgency of it or the putting all of our consciousness on our active mind or our fearful mind or our controlling mind. That's where I feel the liberation, that it's there. into doing what it does. But, you know, I just don't have to put all my attention on it. All my, I don't have to believe in it, I guess is sort of another way you could say it. I've had experience, well, actually, I can say that when I wish you so, I've probably told this story, but, I had to give several talks, and they made me very uneasy.

[48:39]

And I went and saw Soto Ndokasan, and I said, you know, I've been sitting zazen all the time thinking about is my talk. And, you know, I just can't stop. And he just looked at me, and he said, of course. You know, it was just like, of course it was going to happen. You know, it was just going to happen. And so that's been... how it is for me. I think it is for you that sometimes when things are . When somebody's very angry at me or has, you know, something profound has happened. I'll just say yesterday my daughter called and said that her baby had chewed on glass and swallowed it. It's like What's the doctor going to do? You might just get some busy. There's really not much you can do about it at certain times. Yeah, so we include it.

[49:40]

We don't push it away. We don't cling to it. Go ahead. I've lost your picture and your voice, but I will say that, again, you know, just these comments are just helpful. They're just, they kind of fill out, you know, what I'm feeling and thinking and saying. Thank you. Ross? Thank you, Ellen. Thank you, Ellen. I was touched by your story of feeling love for Hozan after . But I certainly appreciate it. Thank you. Of him all those years, these years. This morning I read a story about Suzuki Roshi and a student. And the student said, when are you going to enlighten me?

[50:41]

And Suzuki Roshi said, I'm trying as hard as I can. So Hozama and I were dating together, we've known each other a long time, and I didn't feel in love, we just had a really good relationship in practice, supporting the practice. And when I went over to visit him, I felt similarly to you, and going outside and all the appreciation. So in the spirit of Susan's comment about spaciousness, I felt a spaciousness with Hozon being so vulnerable. And I think we need that space to really connect. But when the person is in front of us or in front of me, there's like this person there that's kind of hard to get or feel the essence. So, Hozon, thank you for enlightening us with your vulnerability and your... Yes, and I would also say that we...

[51:50]

You know, for some reason, in that situation, maybe because of his vulnerability, we also drop our conditioned self, you know? And, you know, that's quite a wonderful... So, thank you, Rosa. And thank you all, I think it's probably time. We have one more question. One more question. I actually can't see the... There's no questions? No. Okay. We see no questions. Beings are numberless. I allow to awaken with them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I I vow to awaken with them.

[53:11]

Delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless, I vow to enter them. Riddha's way is unsurpassable, I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to end them. Blessed ways I will. I vow to keep coming.

[54:09]

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