May I? You may. June 13th. June 13th, Mel and our guest today, Michael Killigrew. Killigrew. Killigrew. Let's start with, I know we've talked about this part before, but I want to do it again for this tape. So when you were a boy and riding in a car with your parents, There was a magazine in the car and this was... So you want to talk about that and seeing the Hasidim on the cover of a white magazine. And this would be in the 40s, right? Or 30s? 40s? 30s or 40s. Maybe the 40s. And your parents were religious or not? No. Not at all? Secular Jews from... Yeah. From? From New York and Pennsylvania. Yeah. My mother was born in Russia, but she came here when she was a year old.

[01:03]

That was in the 19th century. You're in the car, and you look down, and you saw this Life magazine. Well, I was in the seat. I saw this magazine that had these pictures of these old Jews with long beards. I assume they're Hasid's now. I didn't know what Hasid was at that time, but they were the old Jews. But it probably had something to do with creating the state of Israel. But maybe it was before that, because that was 59 or something like that. 48. 48? Yeah, sure. Well, that was before 48. This is... I graduated from high school in 47. Yeah. So... And you were how old in this episode? I was about 12 or 13 something.

[02:05]

Yeah, yeah. 40s, early 40s. And it was Life Magazine? Yeah. So probably a life story on, you know, on these guys from the probably the Lower East Side, probably. Well, then maybe, yeah. Who knows, but... Who knows what it was. Yeah. I felt this connection with them. For some reason, I just felt this very distinct connection and that kind of affinity. And you've never seen them in the flesh? No. No, I've never seen them. Interesting. What's the feeling This is what I'm going for today, more than historical details. I'm interested in the inner experiences. What's the feeling of affinity? Can I open that? What's that? Well, I think it was something...

[03:09]

like what they were involved in, you know? Because, you know, the face on the cover was a picture of where they had come to in their life. And so their faces spoke about what they were doing, you know, and it was... They're living their religious life. And that kind of spoke something to me. But I didn't know anything particularly about their religious life. But there's something that I intuitively responded to, just in their demeanor. And I kind of knew what it was, but I didn't know anything about it.

[04:19]

You knew what it was in what sense? Well, in the sense that I think that they had this spiritual connection. And I think that spiritual connection was always there with me. I think I was just born with it, but it wasn't stimulated. And the way you were growing up, it wasn't... No, it wasn't. Yeah. So, that kind of stimulated, reminded me, sort of, you know, of that connection. But I think I'd always felt it when I was... Somehow, I always had this vague feeling about spirituality when I was young. But it wasn't nurtured, or brought out, or recognized. And in the case of these Hasids, you knew that it was the Jewish religious community, but you didn't really know what that meant.

[05:28]

Not exactly, no. You just were drawn to it immediately. Toronto has religious figures, rather than particularly Hasids or whatever, they just symbolized, or they were pictures of people in religious life. It's spiritual and religious life. So when you say when you were younger and you had kind of vague feelings about religion and spirituality, is there anything more that you can say about that, what those kinds of feelings are? Well, I think I always had a feeling of generosity and also of quietness, you know. My mother said that when I was a little kid, I would sit in the rocking chair for hours, just rocking back and forth, sucking my finger. That's funny. Yeah, you were off to a great start. This is the beginning of a man who became the abbot of two Zen centers simultaneously.

[06:32]

Yeah, that's a very good beginning, rocking back and forth, sucking your finger. I'm going to have a picture of that in the car. It's lovely. Any notions about God? Was that at all talked about in your... Well, I think that I did. It was never talked about. Never talked about. No, but I think that I had that kind of feeling when I saw the picture that these guys were involved with God, you know. Yes, this mysterious thing. Yeah, so that interested me a lot. So that was the kind of word that wasn't popular. It was not something that you talked about, and nobody spoke about it. And so it was, in a way, a kind of taboo. Were your family socialist? Oh, no. They were simply thoroughly secular. Yeah, just secular. Yeah.

[07:32]

And they just used... They used Yiddish when they wanted to talk to each other, and they didn't want us to understand what they were saying. Yeah. But they were totally secular. There was no mention of... Although, I think one time we went to Sunday school, which I don't remember. But I remember that we did, and I did. But that was the end of that. And there was never any mention of religion or God or anything like that. But I always had this longing for that. But it was kind of inaccessible, you know. And especially the G word was just not spoken, you know. Well, that's why I was wondering whether they were socialists, because of course they were very strong Jewish socialists, but it was really taboo.

[08:33]

Well, they were atheists. Yes, exactly. They were probably not so much outspokenly against it. They just didn't exist. They weren't for it. It was just something they didn't want to discuss. They didn't know what to think of it. But my mother, actually, was secretly religious. But, you know, in Judaism, women don't have any place in the spiritual life. Except at home. Just at home. Let's make that distinction. And so, you know, since there was no male leadership, then she couldn't express it. I think that if there had been male leadership, she would have really been very happy to. expressed her, you know, sentiment.

[09:35]

If your father had been a practicing Jew, they could have had a nice Jewish household together. Yeah, I think she would really have liked to have had that. So I kind of got, probably got that from my mother, you know. You got that message about it. Yeah, it's interesting. I think all these little details are important, I think. about how people find their way and everything. So even though they're small and subtle things, to me they're important things. Okay, so let's go then to the next contact with something Hasidic. So you were in San Francisco. Let's talk a little bit about that time. Well, I think that I had... I can't remember. I'm trying to remember what all the connections were, which is hard to remember. Because when I graduated from high school, I went into the service in 47.

[10:41]

And I always wanted to either be an artist or a soldier. But I quickly got over the soldier thing. Not the artist, apparently. Not the artist, actually. So I went to art school. in San Francisco. And then I met my former wife, who was a poet. And then somehow I got really interested in religion. This is the one with green hair? Yeah, with green hair. In those days? Really? Okay. And then I'm trying to recall the stimulation. I think, well, she had a friend. Sutter Moran, who I told you about, who died of AIDS. And he introduced me to various things. I told you about that. He introduced me to the Diamond Sutra and the Platform Sutra.

[11:44]

And also to this Mr. Williams, who hung out at George Field's bookstore. He had a white beard and was a kind of spiritual guy. Um, he introduced me to, um, well, I guess maybe, um, yeah, around that time there was a lot of influences, you know, but I can't remember which comes first. It doesn't matter. No. Yeah. Absolutely. It doesn't matter. But I know that the Hasidim came later. The Hasidim came later. Yeah. Uh-huh. First there was, uh... So let's go through it. He introduced me to Maharshi. Mr. Williams did. Yeah, both of them did. Uh-huh. Both of them did. Let's just open up that whole period of time with you. These people, and the bookstore, and what you're reading, and what's going on. So Williams and Sutter introduced me to Williams. And Williams kind of took care of my, you know... Kind of took you on.

[12:48]

Took me on. Gave you a reading list. Gave me a reading list. And I was very interested in spiritual, you know, these Rosicrucian books and books on vegetarianism and spiritual life, you know, which were very interesting, actually. I was very turned on by that. And so I really, really got very interested. And then I read some book on Christianity. Harold Lamb's book on Jesus. I got very much turned on. By the life of Christ? Yeah. But I knew I didn't want to be a Christian. But I got very turned on by that. And then Maharshi. Maharshi was, I think, a big influence. I would just sit there and read him, you know, I'd sit in the park and walk my dog and read Maharshi, you know.

[13:54]

Really? Yeah. How old are you now? You're in your early 20s? Sat Chit Ananda. Sat Chit Ananda. Yes. Uh-huh. Being... Consciousness. ...bliss. Chit is consciousness, Ananda is bliss, yeah. Yeah. The song is truth, I think. Or being. Being. Being, yeah. It's a different translation, I understand. How old were you at this point? Were you in your early 20s? Yeah, early 20s. And you went to art school, to the San Francisco Art Institute? Yeah. 25, 23, early 20s. Cute. It was cute then. What do you mean cute then? It was cute then. It was a different kind of cute. It was hunky then. That's true. Yeah, you were hunky. So it was Williams with the long beard who introduced you to Maharishi.

[14:57]

Yes. He said, you got to read this guy. Yeah. Yeah. And what did that open for you? It just opened up, you know, the whole realm of spiritual life. Yeah. And then you can't just go, you have to say more about that. Well, I'm trying to remember. And I think it just awakened my need for, you know, seeking for spirituality. And you just seem so, you know, just laying it out in a logical way, you know. And there's no belief system. Yeah, I see that. There you go. Because I was going to ask you, how is that different, for instance, from reading Harold Lamb on the life of Jesus? Yeah. Yeah. You know? Right. Very different. Very different. Yeah.

[15:57]

But, yeah. But say how it's different. It was very matter-of-fact. And it was a spirituality that wasn't... Well, it was logical. And it was low-key, you know, in a way. It was like, you know, earthy. Yeah. As well, you know, earthly spirituality. Grounded spirituality, yeah. That's the sort of thing you get accused of. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. Exactly. So that appealed to me. But, because I have a tendency to be spiritually, have spiritual flights of fancy. Meaning what? Well, you know, I needed to get carried away with my spirituality, which I did with Hasidism, actually. Oh. But, um, and also with Maharshi, I think.

[16:59]

What way? What does it mean to get carried away? Well, for one thing, I was, um, I was smoking a lot of pot at the time. Uh-huh. And so, um, you know, I, uh, I would smoke, like a lot of people do nowadays, you know, they'd smoke pot and equate Buddhism with dope. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do we have people who have done that? Yeah. I think one or two, anyway. But I knew at the same time that although I could, you know, have spiritual flights of fancy with pot, that I was hooked. I mean, it wasn't grounded, you know, I knew that. I knew that was really not a good idea, but it was great. It felt really good, huh? Yeah. Yeah, and so I mean, you know, you get really high on God and, you know, thoughts and ideas.

[18:02]

But then I got turned on to I can't remember who turned me on to Boomer, but the Hasidic tales. Yeah. And that really connected me with my roots. Yeah. So, I was just, I got deeper and deeper into those tales and it, you know, it just, I had such a response, you know, to the whole thing. for a long time, booberism was my... You had an emotional response. Oh, emotional response, yeah. It sounded like it resonated with you. Well, yeah, it resonated, and whereas Maharishi was a little more bare bones, the Hasidic was more rich, you know.

[19:04]

kind of very rich, earthy feeling. Earthy spirituality and spiritual feeling as well. But I still wasn't grounded because I didn't have a Jewish practice. I only had the Jewish feeling, the Hasidic feeling or impetus and inspiration. It was very inspiring. And then I drove his taxi, and I felt like I was, you know, practicing on the job. Yeah. And I always liked the idea of the sadic, you know. Yeah. And the hidden sadic. Yeah. Who is not revealed as a spiritual person. It's very much like Avalokiteshvara.

[20:06]

I see a lot of parallels, and more and more I see in different religious traditions, parallels that are going on, which are not obvious, but are definitely very much the same. How do you see the parallel between Avalokiteshvara and the hidden sadhya? Avalokiteshvara takes various forms in order to help people. And it's not recognizable as Avalokiteśvara. And Manjushri does the same thing. Avalokiteśvara is noted for that. And what about the Tzaddik? What about the Tzaddik? The hidden Tzaddik is the one who doesn't... You wouldn't recognize that person. You'd just think, oh, that's dumb Joe over there in the corner, you know? Sure. many forms, right? He would just go be a beggar in a village, or just go be somebody hanging out in an inn, or whatever.

[21:07]

So I think this shows up in various traditions. It's a nice parallel, actually. It shows up in Buddhism, and it shows up in Christianity as well. I think even in Greek mythology, isn't it, one of the goddesses, like Athena, one of them takes many earthly forms. It appears as a mortal being, looks just like, you know, could be a man or a woman or whatever. I think that's Athena. Yeah, it's an old concept. So I was very intrigued by that, and so when I drove my taxi I felt like I was doing that kind of practice, you know. And what kind of practice? I want you to say everything. look at each other and agree on something, so you have to, this is all about speaking it out. I think that I wouldn't say what the source of my practice was, but just act it out, which is actually, you know,

[22:27]

To always stay in a low position and not think I'm doing something special. Or to just blend with people. It's very much like Suzuki Roshi's teaching. You become one with whoever you're with. You take on the... The situation, wherever you are, you don't stand out. I was just going to say, that's in fact inimical to real transmission at that point. It's like being a white bird in the snow, or a heron hidden in the moon. And so that's what you felt in your taxi driver incarnation. Exactly that. Did you end up having interesting conversations in the tank? All the time. With your passengers? Yeah, all the time. All the time.

[23:29]

What were they like? Well, they're like everybody. They're the cross-section of the world. Yeah. But are there any conversations that even now stand out in your mind? No. Not really. I don't remember anything. That's good. That's probably good. But it's difficult for a book. But I would, you know, people start calling me in that park. Yeah. And just talk for hours. Really? Because as a taxi driver, it's easy to become somebody, a psychiatrist, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, a therapist, an eater, you know, a friend, whatever, you know. So you listened a lot, too. Oh, yeah. I mean, you listened to everybody's story. And I felt that was part of my charge, was to listen to everyone's story. I mean, if they had a story, if they had something that they really, not just bullshit, but if they really had Something to get out there. Something, yeah. And then if they wanted me to say something, I would say something.

[24:30]

It's interesting, I just read in Buber's introduction to the Tales of Hasidim, he talks about listening and the importance of listening and the importance that the Baal Shem Tov placed on listening. I've never actually read that before. Yeah, in Herman Hesse's Magister Ludwig, There are two stories, three stories, short stories in the back. And one of them is about these two Christian, early Christian monks. And they were both well known for their methods. One would sit in a cave and people would come and they'd talk to him and he'd never say a word, just listen. And the other was the guy with the stick. Very bombastic. And the one decided to go and visit the other.

[25:37]

And on the road, actually they both decided to go and visit each other, but they didn't know which was, the other was going to do that. And so on the road, these two met. They didn't know each other, they didn't know who they were meeting. They had this conversation and it turns out that one was really so desirous of seeing the other, because he had what the other one didn't have. And vice versa. It was very interesting. I have to read that again. I have interpreted it. I haven't read it for a long time. There's something about that story that I felt was very significant. And I read that story about that time. About that time, yeah. But I just always had this ability to listen to people. So that's always been part of my practice, is to listen to people.

[26:48]

So I just put it into the situation. So that's what I did. I was a taxi driver and I was talking to people. Yeah. But I don't remember anything. I mean, I did it for six years. And I had lots of incidents, you know, every night, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't remember any of it. Oh. You don't remember any of the details of it? I don't remember. No, I don't. No one knows. No particular person or story stands out at all. You know, if I... If he spoke some pot, he would probably... Because I would imagine that you must have talked also about what you were, you know, where it was appropriate when... Not much. Not much? But I remember that around this time, you know, getting turned on to all this, this was the time of the hippie. We'd just come out of the bohemian phase.

[27:51]

The beat phase? Well, we were just going into the beat phase. Oh, okay. So it was Bohemian first? Yeah, Bohemian, coming out of the Bohemian and going, and I lived in North Beach. And, uh, and I also lived in the Mission, you know, and, and... You spent around Boston and, uh... Yeah, and around San Francisco. And... Early mid-fifties at this point. And I knew a lot of people there at the beach. And, um, I was getting, to where I was really feeling that I had a spiritual practice. But it wasn't a special spiritual practice. It wasn't connected with anything. But as I started reading the Bluebird and getting into that, I felt that I had this Jewish practice. But it was my own Jewish practice, and it wasn't connected to Jewishism. Mainstream Judaism. Yeah. I was really wary of mainstream Judaism. Why?

[28:55]

Well, I didn't want to have a sedate church practice. I was really avoiding having any kind of a church practice. You didn't want to go and read a liturgy and stand up and sit down and stand up and sit down? Well, whatever it was, I didn't know what it was exactly. Was not mainstream person. Yeah, I knew you wanted to stay away from it. Yeah, I was a maverick Counterculturist, you know, and so I didn't want to have I wanted the spirituality, but I didn't want the culture Sounds familiar. Yeah Yeah So it was my own brand of spirituality which was inspired by the Hasidic tales mostly. I really got into it and I really felt like I was very much connected with God.

[29:58]

And I remember using Yahweh as a mantra. And I would just say it over and over and I'd just get really high using that as a mantra. I remember I worked one time as a washing trucks. This guy had a company, he was a crook. I couldn't believe it. This guy, he was an outspoken, he said, I'm a gangster, you know, and he was young. I'll never, a year from now, I'll never remember why we're laughing right now. At least we are. He made himself a profession of being a gangster. And he was, you know, he had his hand in this and that, and he was a young guy, and he wore a suit and a tie. You know? And he had his hair slicked back. And he just made no bones about it, you know? And he had a truck washing business. And so, me and, my friends and I were, you know, hired by him to

[31:01]

wash trucks. On Sunday afternoon we would take our pickup and go to these trucking companies in Oakland. And it was beautiful. It was great fun, you know. We'd put on rubber boots and stuff and we had these big long scrub brushes and we'd scrub these big trucks. And it was nice. There was no traffic. Everything was stopped. Nobody was around. And it was sunny, you know. And we just have this great time with our hoses and brushes, washing these trucks. And I would say, Yahweh, you know. Oh, really? It's a good part of the practice. You're doing this mantra, and you're washing these trucks. Yeah, yeah. And I'm just getting really high. Getting high is really very important in the early stages. Yeah, in the early stages, it's very important to get high. And it was kind of a transference from the pot culture to the religious culture, transferring the high from the pot to the religion.

[32:09]

I did the same thing with mantra. Mantra was a transitional thing for me also. I completely understand that. Then I realized I didn't have to smoke pot. I could do it. And I really longed for my clear mind. Yes, it worked out fine. Before I started smoking pot, I could, you know, as much problem as I had, I could always rely on my clear mind, you know, I always felt comfortable in my clear mind, you know. And then when I started smoking pot, the mind had just false clarity, you know, which you take as clarity, but after a while, you know, you realize it's It's cloudy. It's not, you know, it's smoky. But it's hard to get out of it because I don't think I was ever physically addicted to it, but I was certainly psychologically addicted to it.

[33:16]

Habituated. Habituated, yeah. I remember waiting for the connection, you know. Yeah. And people, you know, I'll get you some, you know. a week later, oh don't worry, and I hear him, you know, where is it, you know? Yeah. That was pretty bad. That's a bad feeling. Yeah. And so I kind of got weaned off of it by the spirituality. Uh-huh. Yeah. And I was really happy to regain my clear mind. Say more about clear mind, what it feels like, Clear mind to you? No. I don't know. Clear mind is like the blue sky. Very simple. Yeah, very simple. It's the mind that you know is your pure consciousness.

[34:20]

clouded by anything. It's like the mind you had when you were a baby, you know? When you were sitting there sucking your fingers. Yeah. Enjoying my clear mind. It's very true of course. It's absolutely true. I think that's true, you know. Like there's some kids who are very frenetic. Right. You know, and they need stimulus all the time, you know. Someone comfortable in themselves. Right. But I was not that kind of kid. I was the kind of kid that could sit down and just enjoy my career behind. Yeah. Like Tao. I was just thinking of Tao here, our youngest son, who's a... Thank you. Who, yeah, who also, just like you, was absolutely happy sitting for hours at a time in his room. Thank you. Yeah. And obviously, I'm sure, enjoying his care of mind, yeah. I remember when they lived in the country, and I remember Thomas Horton, it was all done with great love and affection and everything, but Tove would tie him in a nice way, like just with soft cloth, like with diapers or something like that.

[35:41]

She'd sit him next to the post and she'd tie him to the post. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And they had chickens. And he had to sit there endlessly. Tove and I had been working together in the kitchen. And we totally forget all about him, because he would, and then we'd go, Tae would rush out and he would just be as happy as when we first left him there an hour or so ago. Just watching the world and everything, just totally content. He was a body made of contentment. And you were very contented. Yeah, I think so. At that stage, I got discontented, of course. Naturally, yeah. Inevitably. Inevitably. But so when you started, when you were doing the truck washing job, it was also sort of at the same time that you were getting really connected with the practice. Yeah. And that was the transition from smoking too much grass. Yeah. Yeah. And this is reciting Yahweh. And that's how you were pronouncing it?

[36:41]

Yeah. That's my pronunciation. But it doesn't matter, of course. Yeah, it's fine. It's whatever. It's whatever. Concentration. It could have been anything, you know. Yeah, sure. Pepsi-Cola. Yeah. That's moving. The great Pepsi-Cola mantra. Can you mention the listening? as one of the teachings that you absorbed really clearly from the Hasidic... Well, it wasn't a teaching, it was just my natural... No, it was just my natural... Because I always had this kind of empathy with people, you know? Sympathy, empathy, you know? Compassion, or whatever. And it was just natural. And so I would listen to people and I was very sympathetic with them. And that was... And I was only generous with my time.

[37:41]

So I think that's really very central to the practice I've always had. I've always had several things. One is this compassionate ability to listen to people. Sympathize with them and empathize with them and try to help them or whatever, you know and I also I've always had the feeling that I was always Something about my clear mind, but I Think I always had Was protected, you know, I always felt kind of protected or I mean well well You know, okay like People say, well, I have a guardian angel. Yeah? I don't think I have a guardian angel. But you feel protected. Yeah, like there's always something. Probably more of a gangster watching over you.

[38:44]

I wish I had this gangster that was watching over me. I wouldn't let anybody. So you're a guardian angel. It's like wearing a really tough suit, a black shirt, and a white tie. Hair slipped by. Yeah, right. But I just always felt like that I was, you know, protected somehow, you know, or guided. Say more about that. What? Come on. From when did you feel that? I mean, when did that start to become a reality? Well, I don't know. I think I've always vaguely felt that. Really? From early vaguely on? Yeah. Uh-huh. I think so. And then of course it got obscured, you know, during, but when it wasn't obscured, you know, I could just fall into that, you know. So I felt that I, I guess I felt that I always had a path that was there for me.

[39:46]

And then the times when it would just get washed away, and then I'd come back, you know, and there it was. So it was always there. So I felt I've always had this path and it's always been there. And it's sometimes been obscured or washed away or covered over. But then when those coverings are gone, it's just always there. So I've always had that faith. I've always had a lot of faith. I'm a faith type. You know, there are faith types and doubt types. And faith type just always has this feeling that, you know, the path is there, you know, what's the problem? And then doubt types always need to have things proven to them. And I never had to have things proven to me, you know. And Zen, I think faith type is somebody like Dogen or Sugiyoshi.

[40:53]

Doubt types are like They need confirmation. I just never felt that I... I wanted confirmation, but to match what I felt I already had. I never felt I was up there in the middle of nowhere. You just enjoyed it because it... I always felt that I was on the path. And so I felt that. But I didn't know where I was. I knew I was on the path, but I wasn't always sure where the ruts of the road were. And faith you don't really mean. I mean, faith you mean a trust. Not so much a belief system, but a trust. That's right. Not a belief system, but a trust. Can you tell us, trust is a better word than faith? Well, faith is okay. Faith is okay, but it can be

[41:55]

Yeah, but I think I would rather redeem the word faith and uh-huh then Use alternative. Mm-hmm. What does faith mean to you then? It means that I trust Well, but that's why I asked you because I mean I could make it because it's more than just trust okay, yeah, it's like It's it's like You know that you will always be okay, no matter what happens. It's also like when the body disappears, and the mind disappears, that even though you don't know what will happen, You feel okay about it.

[43:00]

You have a confidence. You have a confidence that the universe is working with you. Even if you don't know how. Now that makes perfect sense to me. I like what you said. about redeeming, that you wanted to redeem the word faith, that was very nice. Significant, also. Because we only apply it, usually generally it's just applied to systems of dogma, and these systems and stuff like that, but it's not really... Yeah, when you're talking about the Christian faith, or the Jewish faith, or the Islamic faith. It's also an important term in Buddhism. Because faith is a synonym for enlightenment. but precisely the kind of faith that you've just been talking about, that confidence that it's okay and that this is a reasonable charted path to take in which that faith will be affirmed.

[44:05]

So it's a deep inner knowing. Yeah, it's a deep inner kind of conviction, yeah. And being able to hang out with the fact that you might not know all the peripherals? You don't know all of them, so... It doesn't matter. Deep inner knowing combined with not knowing. Yes, it's combined with not knowing. And, you know, as we say, we're always walking in the dark, even though, you know, we feel our way along and we're walking in the dark. And so, walking in the dark, you have to have some faith that your steps will take you where you're going. But it's not a faith in something out there. It's a faith in that There's no out there without you. Right. Yeah. It's a circle and you're part of the circle.

[45:05]

So that you're always holding hands with life and death. Right? Yeah. One hand is holding hands with life and the other hand is holding hands with death. Yeah. And you're there. with both of them, right? And it's a circle. You can't get out of this. No matter where you go in the universe, you'll be in the universe. Yeah, which is a very different way of looking at it, what you've just described here, than the conventional idea about faith, which is very much based on something perceived to be outside. An object outside the universe? Right, it fills the gap between out there and in here. Yeah. So this is a very different way of looking at it. Well, it's a mature way of looking at it.

[46:08]

Actually, to be fair to some of the so-called great faiths, I think their more mature views offer a view that would be similar to this. But all the teachings, whether they're Buddhist or Islamic or Judaic or whatever, offer many different levels. Right. And so people understand that on various levels. And I've always felt that The people who conceive of God as an old man in the sky with a beard, it's just fine. I think it's just fine to think of God as an old man with a beard in the sky who doles out this and that. It's better than not believing in anything. Is it? Yeah, I wonder too. I mean, I would probably tend to disagree with that. And why is it? Let's take up with that today. Everyone is born with an anxiety about what will happen to them.

[47:16]

And so, you know, we're born and we're floating around in this sea of life on earth, right? And so everybody gets a piece of flotsam or jetsam to hang on to so they don't, you know, drown, you know, and so that they have something to be connected with. A family, for instance. Yeah, family. No, that's the big one. Family, work, profession, or work, and you know, home and... Friends. Friends, yeah. This whole support system. Email address. Right, but at the same time, you know, that doesn't do it. And at the end, that doesn't do it. So, everybody needs something, some way to connect with, because there's underlying anxiety. Two kinds of anxiety. Two levels. One level is, you know, you worry about your lover, you worry about your job, you worry about, you know, the things up here.

[48:24]

And the other level is deep existential existential angst about, you know, I'm going to die one of these days. How's that going to happen? Where will I go, you know? So that one, whatever will help them I think is okay. You know, if somebody says, oh, I'll go to heaven, you know, I grab onto that raft and then the anxiety is eased, right? Fine. I feel it. Nobody knows, you know. So everybody, you know, whatever helps people to relieve that angst, I think it's fine. Some people do it through dope or through drinking. So that's all fine too? No, that's not fine. So the old man with the beard is okay, but doping is not? I think so. I think it's better. I think the old man with the beard is better than doping.

[49:25]

They both have bad side effects. Yeah. One is pure simple faith. See? The man with the beard is pure and simple faith. Doping ends up being physically destructive. Doping ends up being a false security. Whereas the simple faith ends up being more... The thing about the simple faith is that it brings out your faith. In nothing, right? Whereas dope doesn't bring out your faith. It simply is your attachment to the dope, you know, as a crutch. Yeah, I can see what you're saying there. It's an attachment. I mean, you take away the crutch and you fall down, right?

[50:31]

And the thing about the pure faith, it's also a crutch, but at least it's a crutch in the right direction. Yeah. You know, it's more like a cane to help you get up the mountain, right? Yeah. Or a railing, you know, to walk up the mountain. It's a railing. Yeah, yeah. With the possibility of, at a certain point... A letting go of the railing and staying in emptiness, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, I think Buddhist practice, Zen practice, and most Buddhist practice, there are Buddhist practices that have crutches and railings, but basically it's how you let go of everything and stand there in emptiness and not get, you know, find your equilibrium and have this faith. But faith is important in both Theravada Buddhism, and Mahayana Buddhism, and Zen.

[51:38]

And it's the basis of enlightenment. Because when you do have enlightenment, then you have this trust. You know, you have this faith. Yeah, the two inevitably then come together. And the faith could also be way by a certain amount of doubt and questioning as well. Doubt is important. They don't necessarily exclude each other. Not at all. Because doubt is, I always describe it like an airplane. You know, faith is the engine, the motor, the propeller, you know. It's the optimism, you know, that keeps you... Aloft. Aloft. Yeah. And then the doubt is like the tail, you know. gives you direction. Oh, that's a nice way of putting it. And it says, well, wait, you need this balance. Don't just go like a rocket. Doubt is the rudder. It's the rudder that says, go this way, go that way. Yeah, that's good.

[52:41]

That's good. Very good analogy. But skeptical doubt is a block to faith. And what's skeptical doubt? Well, skeptical doubt is when you're standing outside, You're separated out. Right, so faith and doubt are two parts of the one vehicle. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so they work together. One helps the other. But skeptical doubt is standing outside and saying, that won't work. You should. That's not good. Yeah. It's like not putting yourself into the situation. It's like removing yourself from the situation and looking at it as an object. Yeah. And then you can make all kinds of... Sure. You know, because you're not involved. But the problem with that is that you're also disconnected from your own... I mean, I see people like that all the time. Disconnected from their own spirituality. It may also be at the same time, you know, a skeptical doubt may be an inescapable stage in, you know, when you actually have to let go of a particular system of thought or... Well, yeah.

[53:57]

...that doesn't work, and then you step outside of that and you look at everything with that kind of, you know... Right. Not objectivity, but it's purely objective without... you remove your... Yeah. Involvement. Yeah. But anyway, I guess my point is that that might be something that you actually need to do at a certain point. That's okay. I mean... To be able to throw yourself back in. Circumstances where that's okay. Yeah. But... As an enduring condition, it's not a good idea. But you can't practice with that. No. No. No, that's right. What about, what you just said about, like, pure objectivity. How can there be pure objectivity Everything is co-arisen. Yeah, well, it's not pure. It's only pure in the... Because whatever it is that you're examining, when you examine it, you have some effect on it. Exactly.

[54:59]

Do you have some questions you want to ask now? No, I've had a... sort of off the top of my head here, but you know, I've had a very strong connection with Marshy. Yeah. And I was interested in your remark about You know, you felt that Maharshi was sort of the bare bones and the chasidim, where they sort of reconnected you with the emotional part of it. I guess for me, Maharshi was also a very emotional experience because of his confrontation with death in particular. Yeah, of course. Exactly. And I was also struck by the way you described How did you put it? You said something about holding hands with life and death simultaneously.

[56:01]

And I remember actually doing that literally on a number of occasions. You were there at one of them holding hands in a circle with Corey, my mother's second husband after he died. I remember doing it with Robbie up in the hills there. I mean, literally standing in a circle with his body in the middle, holding onto his cold hand and holding onto the warm hand. of the other person next to you, and what sort of role has death played in your spiritual evolvement and thinking? Well, it's very interesting, the way I've always... I kind of wonder at my attitude, you know? I've been on the top of a mountain, felt dizzy, you know, and I don't want to fall down there, you know. But in driving my car, I have absolutely no fear about anything on the road.

[57:04]

Wow, you know, that's the old taxi driver. That's right. I mean, that's, you know, I feel very The greatest compliment I ever had was driving up Park Avenue, Park Avenue South actually, and just barely making every yellow light, you know. And then I noticed at a certain point there was some guy behind me and he finally caught up with me underneath the Pan Am building down south of there, you know. And it was summer and the windows were rolled down, and it was this yellow cab, it was this cabby, you know, and he leans out there, he leans out, you know, and yells across and says, hey Mac, you want a job? It's the greatest car driver compliment I ever had, so I understand very much. Yeah, no, it's just perfectly natural. Perfect, yeah, everything's falling into place. But there are certain situations where I know that I have some fear of death. Other situations where I don't.

[58:06]

What are some that you do? Kind of what you're used to. What are the ones in which you feel fear and resistance arise? Mostly at heights. Really? Yeah, me too actually. But otherwise I don't feel much. Somehow, I always, you know, when people that I know have died, I don't feel very much. I don't feel, oh, you know, this awful, terrible thing. I just feel, somehow, I don't have a lot of feeling. It just feels like this is the next step, you know? Do you think you would feel that way? Have you lost people who were very, very close to you? Yeah. Yeah. I just feel this is the next step. I don't know how. I'm sure if I lost my son or my wife, I'd feel very... I don't know how I'd feel.

[59:15]

But on the other hand, I don't feel a lot of... Anguish. Anguish. No, because somehow I feel this is the inevitable step, you know? And it's not like... I just feel, you know, they're gone from this world and they're taken care of in some other world, you know? And everything's taken care of, you know? Why should I grieve? I mean, there is a grief period, but not a lot of anguish. You know, there's grief and... Missing, yeah. Yeah, and missing and... Because the grief is ours, it's not, you know... It doesn't have anything to do with them. Yeah. It's very, yeah, it's like, so... And then when I think about, well, when Buddha was, you know, passing away, he said,

[60:20]

And some of the arhats were crying, you know. He said, that's foolish, you know. That's never influenced me. But when I think about that, I think, well, maybe that's where I am. I hope that's where I am. Maybe that's where I am. But I do feel that way. I feel that it's just the next step. And there's absolutely nothing that can be done about it. Although the Tibetans, you know, they have this 49 days of, you know.

[60:52]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ