I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Good evening. Hi. There's a chair for you. Yeah. Didn't you need one? Uh-huh. They're around. They're still... And those are easy to copy, too. I made about 25. So the first thing we want to do is bring up any questions that were left over from the readings or discussion last week. Yes. There was a reference to silent illumination in the reading of the fact in your book.

[01:10]

There was also a quote, if I remember exactly, that described silent illumination. Could you read that and then contrast that with silence? Yes. Did everybody hear the question? There was a reference to the term silent illumination. And the question is, how does it compare to Soto Zen? I wanted to encourage all of you when you do your readings to have something like this. to look up what you need to because there are so many references. Let's just see if there's anything in here. Then I'll say what I know about silent illumination. We talked about it in reference to Han Jue who was a couple of generations before Dogen's teacher. And this was finding the original state of mind. as opposed to Da Hui's practice and Yuan Wu's, which was about using koans actively, more actively, working with the koan and particularly the wato, it's called in Japanese, the turning word in the koan, working with that as a tool to find original mind.

[02:30]

Let's see if there's anything, just to make a point about how useful it is to use these. Well, it has Siddhi and so on. And no silent illumination. But if we went to Shikantaza, which is probably as close as... Can I see the correlation? Yeah, just sitting. Let's see, it might say that it's silent illumination. Nothing but precisely sitting. I have it here. So we'll see if it's any... It doesn't use the word silent illumination here, but it does define as the highest or purest form of zazen, shikantaza.

[03:32]

And of course, these are just various methods that teachers developed. So there were no... Although Dogen did practice with koans, It's almost like Dzogchen in Tibetan. The highest form of sitting is just sitting with nothing in your mind. But there are various ways to get there. For example, counting the breath. So there's more than that. Did you want to find where it was referred to? Yes. I wasn't here last week, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Silent illumination? Right, but I marked this place. Yes. Soto.

[04:36]

Yeah. Yeah. The Chinese. Yeah. But she's trying to say what what is it exactly that he's he's railing against. Oh, it's on page 199? OK. Yeah. He's Mr. Silent Illumination. Well, what he's trying to do in 199 is say, when the Buddha used the term silent, I take subtle illumination, undestroyed and unborn on page 199 and merge it with the Tathagata Garbha. So that Tathagata Garbha is nothing but the light of subtle awakening shining through the Dharmadhatu. This is where we need the dictionary. But in any case, this is some kind of expression of form and emptiness. It's like there is this absolute state of illumination that shines through each and every phenomenal thing and being.

[05:40]

So... Is that the same as wu? As what? Mu, you mean? Chinese word for mu is wu. Okay. It's the same. It just means... Well, if we keep redefining, you know, if we say one thing is and then redefine it as the next Chinese thing, it's like, yeah, it's the, you know, Mu is a way of expressing it. Mu is a wato that's in a koan that helps people experience in their bodies silent illumination. Okay, so Mu is the expedient means by which one enters the state. Yes? The question that I had is that, on this same topic, is that at the bottom of 200, Chloe is thus trying to clarify

[06:47]

Yes. Yes, and then goes into the Tathagatagarbha. Okay, so the problem is this is almost like why Dogen went to China. He said, after all, if we already have it, why do we practice? So he's saying this in a sense to her. You can't say that you already have it because it's an expedient means to know that there's such a thing that, you know, we all have. this light, but we've covered it. So we need to find a means to uncover it. So don't mistake the fact that you have and are Buddha nature to mean that you're already there. you still have work to do, even though you already are it, it needs to be uncovered." So he's saying that there's a danger when we talk about this silent illumination to say, oh okay, I've got it, I'm sitting here silently, you know, I'm getting a little high, that's it, that's what they mean, and there's not a breaking through to a deeper place.

[08:15]

So that's what it is about, don't mistake this silent illumination as an understanding and as an expedient means of finding your way to being that you're already there ultimately. So this is the confusion and what he says is a danger for using that as a way, as a practice without emphasizing, I mean this is the argument, you know, the emphasis on having a breakthrough experience which still exists. In our practice, Suzuki Roshi said, you know, to take, and Dogen said, to take the posture is enlightenment. And other teachers say, yes, it's true, but push, push, push. And this is, when she came to him, she'd been practicing in this school of silent illumination. And in fact, the teacher she was with was not Hanjur,

[09:17]

And maybe he wasn't such a great teacher. And you hear Hakuin also railing against Soto, you know, good for nothing Soto, they sit there silently, what do they know? And there's this kind of argument, particularly now even, or recent history in Japan that The Soto masters have given up on the idea of enlightenment, or some of the Soto teachers give up on the idea of enlightenment, and this was something that Hakuin railed against. It's like, it's there, you just have to keep pushing, you have to keep uncovering, and we have a more gentle process here, at the Zen Center. We have a more gentle process, and we have some understanding that there's something that happens. And it keeps happening, and it keeps happening. But there's a way that just sitting and saying, I'm already there, is a mistake.

[10:20]

Okay, are we covered? So, but there is a lot in here about the rivalry between Da Hui and Han Yu and they were actually in the end, as we talked about last week, not so far apart. But one thing I've noticed is when you read Zen literature, the word rant comes to mind and there was certainly a rant on Da Hui's part against the other teachers and Dogen continued it. When Dogen, if you read Dogen's formative years in China, you know, he ranted against all of Dawei's successors and it was only when he found somebody who had descended from Hangzhou's line that he really felt that he had found his home and that this was a true teaching. So, it's interesting to take sides and I think it's wonderful in America that we don't have to, you know, we've always been a melting pot. And even though, you know, in a certain way we say we're Soto, even in Zen mind, beginner's mind, Suzuki Roshi said, we're not Soto, you know, we're not even Zen, you know, we're just practicing here.

[11:39]

So, I think it'll, we have the opportunity to look at it from various positions and various expedient means and find the ones that help us to stop our self-clinging. So, I think that's a great place to get started on this week unless there are more questions. You know, it's very, the purpose in my mind of having classes about women's practice is a little bit like what Dogen said, you know, to study the self is to forget the self. And to study the gender is to forget the gender. Because whenever we go deeply enough into the practice, we find awakened beings who saw that and who despite the cultural conditioning of their times and despite even the words of the Buddha that there should be two separate orders took women in as students and recognized the potential for enlightenment and the potential for awakening and potential just for practicing and

[12:50]

and offering the Dharma that came through women and that it had nothing to do with it. In fact, I think there's this wonderful quote of one of the students. At the end of this article, it has this image of him hitting himself in the head when he hears something that Miao Dao said. I don't remember exactly what page it was on. I don't know, maybe some of you saw it there. And he says, you certainly can't say that this is about, you know, men or women. There's plenty of abbots who haven't come to her level of understanding and, you know, we should throw the buggers out. But it tells the story of him kind of hitting himself in the head when he heard her words. Uh-huh. You want to read it, Rondi? Uh-huh. So

[14:00]

Yes, one of those is, I think that Chong Fu is the hero, the great hero, when they say she's a man, she acts like a man, Chong Fu, the great hero. Which, so, you can just see this guy, you know, hitting himself in the forehead like this, saying, wow! You know, that knocked me out. So I think that's pretty terrific. And I think for me, the point of teaching this material is, what she said in her very first interview, not she, what Miao Tsung said in her very first interview with Yuan Wu. And he saw her and he said, you know, what does a woman, a well brought up woman, you know, who had lived in the inner quarters, separated, protected, what does she have to do with the matter of a great hero, this Zen practice? And she looked at him and said, when did the Buddha Dharma have anything to do with male or female form? So that's true.

[15:27]

And that's absolutely all of our position, I assume. But it seemed like in the course of her life, it was made to be about male or female form. And so to study this and to work through it is to find that it has really nothing to do with that. But I remember we went over the various level of Da Hui's helping her work through Miao Dao's guilt, that she wanted to have this ceremony, feeling that she had obstacles, that she had demons. And first he said, you know, just realizing that you feel badly, that there are obstacles, shows that you have already awakened the mind. And anyway, there are no demons, there are no obstacles, you know, this total emptiness. And then finally, but since they're there, let's work through them. And so this is in fact quite a lot about the koan and the koan of Miao Tzuang's study as a woman.

[16:31]

first coming from this place of saying, but wait a minute, you know, this is Yuan Wu, you know, this is a very famous teacher, one of the most famous of his day, how could he be saying such a thing? When did the Buddhadharma ever have anything to do with male or female forms? And we still ask this question. So, in working that through in the koan where she presents herself in her female form, she's saying, well, if you're going to insist that there are female forms, how about it? So we'll get to that later. So what I have here in terms of going over her life, you have, you can follow along with some of the early stories, but it won't be the text that I have. I got this text from Miriam Levering and it's coming out in the book. And since the book isn't out yet, I can't copy it, but I can tell you the research that she's done on the biography of Miao Tsung. You have the Kahawai. Right, that's so we did Miao Dao last time we're going to cover Miao Tzung and Miao Dao was a nun as you remember became a nun at age 20 and also came from a very aristocratic family and as did Miao Tzung and Miao Tzung was a housewife

[17:50]

and was forced to marry. These were just the two separate paths. She also did not wish to marry, but was forced by her family to marry. And Miao Dao was allowed by her father to become a nun at age 20. So this is her biography. Tse Hsu Miao Tsung Chan Master, lay name Hsu, was the granddaughter of a grand counselor named Hsu Tsung. Now, she lived from 1095 to 1170. When she was 15 years old, she was ignorant of Chan. She only wondered about how human beings are born into the world. We are born and we do not know where we come from. We die and do not know where we go. From collecting her thoughts and focusing on this problem, she had an insight. But she did not think her new awareness was different from that of others. She thought that human beings, as the most numinous of sentient beings, must all be like this. So she never mentioned it to anyone.

[18:52]

She just sort of woke up to wondering, what is it from whence we come and go? What is that? Later, she was forced to obey her father and mother's orders and married Tzu Shu Yuan. But before long, she began to dislike deeply the forms of this world, I take that to be married life, and performed abstinences and purified her mind as before. She wanted to transcend the mundane. She wanted to transcend the mundane world and leave it behind to discipline her will and emulate the ancients. So she went to visit the Chan master. This is Yuan Wu. Master Yuan said, a well brought up lady from a wealthy family, protected from any knowledge of the world. How can you be prepared for the business of a great male hero? Miao Tzung replied, does the Buddha Dharma distinguish between male and female forms? Master Yuan questioned her further.

[19:54]

He said, what is the Buddha? This mind is the Buddha. What about you? Miaozong replied, I've heard of you for a long time. I'm disappointed to find that you still say that kind of thing. He's repeating someone else's words, so she's busting him. Master Yuan said, what about the story that when someone came in the door, Dershan immediately hit him? Miaozong replied, if you would carry out that mandate, you would not receive the offerings of humans and gods that are given to the Buddhas and their sons. You would not receive those offerings in vain. There's nothing wrong with doing that, but she phrases it very carefully to not get into dualism. He says to her, you're not there yet. Your answer's not good enough yet. So she hit the incense stand and knocked it over with her hand. He said, there's an incense stand for you to hit.

[20:56]

What if there were no incense stand? She immediately left. Therefore, showing him if there's nothing there, this is the other side and I can handle that too. But he caught her on the way out. She was almost home free and knocked him off his seat, but he caught her. He said, huh, what truth have you seen that has made you like this? So he's now going to catch her with a little compliment. You know, OK, I'm recognizing you. And she says, she turned around now. She was almost out the door. She almost had it knocked. And she says, everywhere there is not a single thing. And Yuan Wu said, wait, that's young Jia's words. Let's have yours. So he caught her there. So she says, why shouldn't I take my feelings out on him? And Yuan Wu says, a real lion cub. In other words, she really has the potential to become a great teacher. Now, I want to mention, we did go, I created these charts here for you because Rondi said, let's see what the charts look like in terms, and where the women might fit in.

[22:08]

I put at the top all the way through the sixth ancestor, then the seventh, we're moving over to the Rinzai lineage, Nangaku, then Master Baso in Japanese, Matsu in Chinese, and then Hyakujo Ekai, who you've all heard about. All of those are the first nine generations, and your chart starts with the tenth. And you see that you don't have color, but I do. The blue is the Rinzai or Linji lineage. So they are down to, let's see, this is the 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st generation, 22nd generation in China. And I think it would be interesting as we uncover these women to kind of have like a big map of putting the ancestors together, because we're only going to find only shreds, you know, like fossils, like a jawbone of a dinosaur to reconstruct the women's teachings.

[23:15]

So anyway, first of all, I wanted to point out that Yuan Wu, who was Dahui's teacher, had a female disciple who also was awakened, and her name was Fan Xianzhen. And so you see her there under Yuan Wu. So this is how Da Hui already was exposed. His teacher had trained women. And then it's one Yuan Wu. It's handwritten in there, okay? And then the next generation, we have Da Hui, and we have the two women that he gave Dharma transmission to, Miao Dao and Miao Tzu, who we have some fragments of their talks and their koan work. But there are many others, and it will be interesting as the research proceeds. Miriam Levering will be having a book.

[24:17]

Also, Evelyn Xie, who wrote the article on the view of the feminine in Chan, which I gave you the first week, that's in this book. She also will be having a book. I think Beata Grant, who discovered Also a lineage holder in the 17th or 18th century in Ming or Qing China. That teacher is Juryuan Xinggang. We just don't have time to cover her this trip. She'll probably be coming out with a book. And there was another one. Oh, there's another one who's been discovered. Her name is Mugai Nyodai, and she was 13th century in Japan, and a lineage holder of one of the very famous Chinese masters who came to Japan. And she was the Dharma sister to Muso Soseki, who kind of wiped her off the map in terms of historically.

[25:21]

But she did receive Dharma transmission and also was a lineage holder, and there's a woman at Yale and Lazaro doing research on her now. So all of this material will fill in the maps. So we just, as Ronnie suggested, if we start making copies, I have another piece. Oh, this is one. And that's prior to, that Miriam handed out, Miriam Levering handed out when she was here. That's prior to Dogen and shows the women under Fuyo Dokai. who we chant the name of Fuyo Dokai and shows the nun. These are the nuns in that lineage. And then Dogen comes down here. So we have all these little bits of the map that we're collecting and maybe we'll put a puzzle together one of these days. So anyway, her first interaction was with Yuan Wu and he recognized her talent.

[26:25]

Then she went on, I think this Chan master, Chen Xie, or Chen Xie, was also maybe the one that Miao Dao studied with. So she went to him, and he was living in a small cloister. And she went directly in, she walked right in to see him. At the instant that she walked inside the door, he said to her, are you ordinary or a sage? And she said, where's the third eye? In other words, what are you used to know this with? Where is it? So he says to her, the real thing appears right in front of your face. What is that like? Meanwhile, she had already done her bows, and she was in the process of picking up her zagu. And it says in the translation, she held up her kneeling and bowing cloth. She had already done her bows, so she's now picking up her zagu. And she put it away, as we do in our sleeve.

[27:30]

And he said, I didn't ask about that. She said, too late, it's gone. So when he said, the real thing appears right in front of your face, what is that like? She enacted it, she put it away, and he went, wait, wait, wait, she said, too late, bud. It's over, party's over, you're out. So then he says, he yelled, ho, which, I hope that came through. It'll blow out the recorder. It's like ka, ka, that they do in Rinzai monasteries in Japan. They yelled ho at China. And so she yelled ho back at him and walked out. So she had visited all the various famous masters and her husband was, I forget the word for it, anyway. doing like an ambassador. So she went with her husband to take up an official post. And the only one that she hadn't studied with yet or met was Da Hui.

[28:35]

And she thought, gee, I really would like to meet him. Just then it happened that Da Hui arrived by boat at the city where her husband was taking up his position. So she heard about it and went to where they were. When she saw him, she only bowed silently in respect when she was introduced to him. She walked up, she bowed, and she carried herself up. And Dahwe said, that woman who just came, she's seen something. He knew. But she's not yet encountered the hammer and tongs, forge and bellows of a real master. So this to me is just, I've become very fond of Da Hui as I've read about his interactions and the way he teaches. He really knows what he's doing. So when he said she's seen something, there's another translation that is about she's seen some spirits.

[29:35]

In other words, she's had some spiritual awakening, but no one has gotten in there with a hammer and tongs to help her break down those ego attachments. And he knows that that's the work of a real teacher in the intimate connection. And so he not only knows what he's doing, he knows how to talk about it. That's why I have such fondness for him. And we'll see how he continues with that. Well, you saw a lot of that in his working with Miao Dao, you know, how first he pushed her harder and then he let her in, you know, and he said, you would say then that I cuddled her. So he really knows what he's doing. So he says, she's not yet encountered the hammer and tongs, forge and bellows of a real master. She's just like a 10,000 ton ship in a closed off harbor. She still cannot move. Now, for me, my understanding and my experience of this is that, and you all may have had this experience, tell me if you have, you can be stuck with your own hang-ups, but when you encounter someone whose practice or understanding is deeper than yours, it's like you take your mind and you put it in their consciousness and it opens up for you.

[30:53]

Do you know what I'm talking about? So Gregory Bateson talked about this in therapeutic models, which is your level. of complexity always needs to be one degree more than whoever's problem, you know, is being presented to you. So your vision needs to be bigger. And in this case, he saw this woman's got a really big and powerful mind, but she stuck with it until she encounters someone who is deeper and bigger and more well-trained than she is so that she can move with it. And that's what he saw and knew about students in training. So he said this to the layman fong who was there with him. It's not layman pong, it's a different one. How can you say that so easily? So there are two different, I've seen two different translations here. Taue says, if she turns her head back this way, I'll give her a once over.

[31:58]

I'll give her, I'll make a finer discrimination. And the other translation that we saw, which is in the Kahawai Koans that you have is, if she had turned, it would have been otherwise. It's something like that, which I take it to mean that there was something so completely direct and exposed about the way she presented herself that she didn't vary in her exposure. And so it's like if there had been any turning, it would have been otherwise. And that's how I knew who she was. That's how I knew of her strength, because she came towards me. She didn't vacillate. She was clear and she was coming right for it, even without saying anything. So that's one way of looking at it. In this translation, I'm going to make a finer discrimination. The next day, Miao Tzung's husband commanded Da Hui to preach the Dharma. This is kind of interesting, the involvement. with the government of the Zen teachers and we talked about this a little last time for those of you who weren't here that Dahui was really a true revolutionary and because of it was exiled and so here's some of his interaction I think this is prior to his exile

[33:16]

So he not only accepted women, but he spoke his mind quite about some of the corruption that he saw in the government. And there was some kind of plot to throw over the government, and when that failed, one of his supporters was put to death on account of it. He was exiled, but this is before the exile. So her husband, who's some kind of politician, is ordering Dahua to preach the Dharma. I love that. I love the notion of the mayor coming over to the mail and saying, you're going to have to give a Dharma talk, will you, today. You know, I've got some big wigs coming in and, you know, I'd like to entertain them for a while. Part of his talk, I'm sure this wasn't the whole talk, but part of his talk was trying to make this connection with her. Today among you, there is a person here who has seen something. I inspect people like a customs officer. As soon as they arrive, I know whether or not they have dutiable goods.

[34:17]

So what do you think he means by they have dutiable goods? Valuable. Something's valuable, but something that's going to be gone over. It's going to be worked over, too. She's going to have to pay for it in a certain way. Come clean. Show it. Anything else? Any other ideas about dutiable goods? I mean, for me, also the idea of attachments, you know, these valuables. It sort of covers both the range of having some inside of value and having some attachments. Anybody else? Import it. Somewhat alien, but not open up. Uh-huh. Yeah, maybe that we're still, she's still carrying it. It's not thoroughly integrated. Mm-hmm. Yeah, baggage. But, but something about it was positive, too, because she came right over. So she came right to him.

[35:20]

Because of the interaction. Uh-huh. Dutyable goods. That's right. You're going to have to show me your goods. That's right. So he was calling her forth for the inspection. Very good. So when he stepped down from the preaching seat, Miaozong asked him for a name in the way. He gave her the name, no attachments, Wujiu. which I think is pretty wonderful since she had so many attachments, you know, being of this aristocratic background and she was married and everything else. So it was the real koan of her life, no attachments. The following year, she heard that the Dharma seat where Dahui was teaching was flourishing and went there to spend the summer retreat. In a formal instruction to the whole assembly, she heard raised the koan, kongan, it's called there, here. Which one was it?

[36:21]

Oh, this is one that went through Sekito Kisen very early on, so maybe 6700. Sekito said, this way won't do, not this way won't do. This way and not this way, both won't do. Now what? I think I gave you last week the instructions he had for working with a koan. You can't take it as truth. You can't take it as something that you don't do anything about. And so on. So he had like five instructions there. So this one's pretty good for that. I don't know if some of you have ever heard of Shinichi Hisamatsu, actually a modern day teacher in Kyoto, didn't call himself Zen, but said there was only one koan. One koan, which is, when nothing will do, what will you do? So this is very much like that.

[37:25]

So as Miaozong heard this koan, she suddenly awakened. But after the sermon was over, she didn't immediately go to report, you know, this is the doksan report now, the awakening. So somebody else went, the vice director, somebody with a higher position, and she didn't have one. She was still housewife at this time. He rushed off to the abbot's quarter to report his understanding. A moment ago, you brought up Sekito is saying, I understand it. And Dawei says, well, what do you understand? Now, after that comes a lot of Chinese, which will try to make something up. This way won't do. Not this way won't do. And then he uses some Chinese that came from someone else. It's soro shabaho. It has something to do with auspicious, svaha, and so on. This way won't do, that way won't do.

[38:32]

And he raises this expression, this Chinese expression, about the auspiciousness of the moment. Both this way and not this way won't do. At this moment, Miaozong arrived. Miaozong arrived. Without telling him whether it was good or bad, He hasn't now made a comment to the vice director. He hasn't said anything yet. Da Hui brought up the vice director's answer to Miao Tsung. She laughed. And she said, quote, Xiang commented on Cheng Tzu. Those who know say that Cheng Tzu commented on, quote, Xiang. So these aren't his words. These are just words of other philosophers that he's using. And she just laughed. So Da Hui saw that her words were different than the ordinary. So he raised another koan for her. This is a really powerful koan. And I'd never heard this one before I read this material. OK, you remember Ganto and Seppo, the buddies?

[39:35]

So Ganto, during the persecution of the Buddhists, went off to be a ferryman and take people across the river. And Seppo ended up being a teacher and actually having a lot of students. But, and some of you may remember, too, according to history, Gonto was the one when he was actually killed by bandits at an early age. Yet it let out such a yell that they could hear him like two miles away. And later, when Haakon read the story of Ganto's yell, he was sent into the worst despair, thinking that if Ganto yelled when they were killing him, you know, what's going to happen to me? He was terribly afraid of death. So Ganto is a very famous figure in all the history of Zen, and it goes on and on. Then the reaction of Haakon to Ganto's story. But this story is about when he actually was ferrying the boat. Ganto, or Yanto, becomes a ferryman by some shores of a lake.

[40:41]

On each side of the lake hung a board. When someone wanted to cross, he or she would knock on the board. Ganto would call out, which side are you crossing to? Then he would wave his oar, come out from the reeds, and go meet the traveler. One day, a woman carrying a child in her arms appeared. Eventually, he asked her, Where did the child you were holding in your arms come from? And she said, I've given birth to seven children. Six of them didn't meet anyone who understood them. This remaining one does not prove to be of any use. I will throw it in the river right away. Miao Tsung replied with a four line poem. One tiny boat drips across a vast stretch of water. He makes his oars dance, chanting his tunes wonderfully. The clouds, mountains, sea, and moon are all thrown in. Alone,

[41:41]

I doze off into the butterfly dream. Now, some of you may know the butterfly dream. This is when someone dreams he's a butterfly and then when he wakes up, he says, was I a man dreaming I was a butterfly or am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man? Yeah. So. At this point, we were supposed to take a break a few minutes ago, so you could stretch. Did we say we had something to do at the break now? Next time. Okay, anybody have some thoughts? I mean, we've talked a little bit about what that quad means, about throwing the baby in the water and so on. Could you read it one more time? Okay. When he's ferrying people across, he sees a woman come with a baby. He says, where did the child you are holding in your arms come from?

[42:45]

She said, I've given birth to seven children. Six of them didn't meet anyone who understood them. If this remaining one does not prove to be of any use, I will throw it in the river right away. So that's the koan. And then her answer is, one tiny boat drifts across a vast stretch of water. He makes his oars dance, chanting his tunes wonderfully. The clouds, mountains, sea, and moon are all thrown in. Alone, I doze off into Chong Tzu's butterfly dream. That's her answer to the koan. The koan ended. Yeah. If this one does not prove to be of any use, I'll throw it in the river right away. Well, we're not going to be... Go ahead, Shannon.

[43:47]

Go ahead, Shannon. I'll certainly refer to that. Well, we had some discussion over here, so let's hear some other, and then we'll hear her. I actually am still thinking about the exchange that happened earlier where she says, I forget exactly the exchange, but where her answer is too late, it's already gone. Yes. And I think that's a wonderful, direct answer to this question. Because sometimes when we talk about Buddha nature, we talk about it as if it instead of a way at getting at things are impermanent and they are interdependent. And I think that's what she was saying in that exchange. Right, it transpired, yeah. Yeah, and I think that that's what Meryl is also saying.

[44:52]

Uh-huh. You think that's what the woman was saying in some way? In some way. Yeah. That this baby that you see in front of you... The moon and the sun are all included. It's all, you know, this is going in the river too. Yes? Why do co-ops have such a different mode? It's this beautiful imagery of... The dreamer doesn't know who he, she, it is. The dreamer is either maybe a part of God, maybe a person. So I think what she's saying, what he's saying, is that when you have this experience, there's no difference.

[45:55]

Things just change. You could be a butterfly, you could be a man. It's the same movement that Shannon was talking about. identity and that they've just gone. So it's not a state of confusion. It almost answers the question about where did the baby come from? It seems to just... Yeah, it covers every... it sort of covers the whole nature of life. It seems... it's also very... Yes, she does that, too. Were you going to say something, Nancy?

[46:59]

Oh, no, I was listening. I appreciate what you're doing. You know, the part that I like, her poem is so wonderful. The part that I like in this koan is about the woman who challenges Ganto, who asks, you know, here's a woman coming across the river with a baby. What does she know about Zen? You know, it's like the many exchanges with tea ladies, where he says, so now I'm going to, you know, pull the rug out from under you. You think you're just crossing the river, but where did the baby come from? And she, she throws the loop around him and pulls it, pulls him out, you know, pulls his feet out from under him and says, oh really? Say a word of zen or I'm throwing the baby over the water. Yeah, yes, very much so, in my, in my feeling about it. Cat. You know, say a word of Zen or I'm going to cut the cat in two. And he does.

[48:00]

Yeah, I believe it. Yeah. Well, what's his name? Joshu. Joshu comes back. Yeah. Yeah. Jose. I've heard that second part, but it's a criticism. I have too. I read it that way. So there's another thing in here about the poem. He makes his horse dance, chanting his tunes wonderfully. I'm trying to remember who was it. I think it was Yun Man. Somebody said, sum up the entire teachings of the Buddha. And he said something like, singing in tune with each occasion. being in tune with each occasion. An appropriate response. Yes, he makes his oars dance, chanting his tunes wonderfully. It's a description of the baby. Yeah, wherever, yeah, wherever you are, you find your place.

[49:01]

Of course, an appropriate response. Okay, so she said, alone I doze off in the Tsang Tzu's butterfly dream, and Da Hui remains silent. and departed, so she kind of got that. She passed the koan. Now, we have one where she does another trick. The next day, Dawei hung up the sign for Doksan, so she entered his chamber. He said, since the ancient virtuous ones did not go out their gates, how were they able to eat oil-fried rice cakes in the village? She says, All right, I'll answer. Only if you promise to let me off easily, will I say what is on my mind. He says, OK, I'll let you off easily. Try giving your reply. She says, I also will let you off easily. He says, but what about the oil fried rice cakes?

[50:03]

Zagu, what happened to the little thing you were bothering over here? She shouted, oh, and went out. So she turned the tables on him. So she composed a verse on the occasion of her awakening. Suddenly I came across my nose. My cleverness was like ice melting and tiles crumbling. Why did Bodhidharma need to come from India? The second patriarch did not need to give three bows. If you still want to ask, what's it like? The whole troop of bandits are defeated utterly by that. The bandits are the scoundrels. Now, we repeated the verse and composed one of his own adding to it. You have awakened to the living intention of the patriarch, cutting all in two with one stroke, directly finishing the job.

[51:06]

As you meet karmic occasions one by one, trust to naturalness, whether in this world or outside of it. In the realm of Buddhist matters, there is no excess or lack. I compose this gatha as testimony to your enlightenment. The four ranks of sages and six types of ordinary beings are in shock. Stop being in shock. Even the blue-eyed barbarian Bodhidharma still does not know what you know." So this was his praise for her. Whatever came before you, you've got to know. So there are many other of her stories which I won't be able to go into, if we're going to have a chance, and maybe I will after we discuss the Koran a little. But anyway, this all occurred during the time that she was still a housewife, a still follower of the way, before she had taken the Tantra, before she became a nun.

[52:08]

She had studied with him. So then we come to the part of her staying in the abbot's quarters. And does someone have the koan there to read? It's in the Kahawai koans under Miaozu. I think they spell it slightly differently, but I have it here. I'll read it once, and then if somebody else finds it, they can read it again. OK. Still, when she was not yet a nun, and she studied with Da Hui, he lodged her in the abbot's quarters. The head monk, Wan'an, always made disapproving noises. Even though she is a woman, she has strengths, Da Hui would say to him. Wan'an did not approve.

[53:09]

Now, he may have had the suspicion that there would come to be more to the relationship besides teacher and student. As I mentioned last time, that also was a traditional part of monastic life at various times, that the Zen master would have a cleaning lady, and then he would have a family that had some relationship to her. Dahui then insisted that Wan'an should go interview her. Wan'an reluctantly sent a message that he would go to speak with her and her words to him. Will you make this a Dharma interview or a social visit, or she calls it, or a worldly interview? The head monk replied, a Dharma interview, she says. Then let your attendants depart. She went in first to her room, to her quarters, and then called him. Please come in. When he came past the curtain, he saw Miao Tsung lying face upwards on the bed without anything on at all.

[54:12]

I think she was spreading He pointed at her private parts and said, what kind of a place is this? She said, all the Buddhas of the three worlds and the six patriarchs and all the great monks everywhere, they all come out from within this. He says, and would you let me enter or not? And she says, it allows horses to cross. It does not allow asses to cross. Wan'an said nothing and Miaozong declared, this interview with the senior monk is ended. She turned and faced the wall. He became embarrassed and left. And he went back and with his tail between his legs, excuse me, excuse me, I didn't mean to do any man bashing, but then back after all of this to his teacher and told what had happened. And the teacher said, Tao Wei said,

[55:14]

It is certainly not the case that the old beast does not have any insight. One-on-the-monk was ashamed. So that was the koan that we ended on. We recognize Joshu's koan in that the story is when a monk, Smart Alec, went to visit Joshu. He said, uh, I've heard a lot about this great stone bridge of Joshu, but all I see is an old log. And Joshu said, you haven't seen the stone bridge yet. You haven't seen the real bridge of Joshu yet. And the monk said, oh, what is it? And Joshu said, it carries horses across, and it carries asses across. So she makes Joshu's koan her own for this occasion. And I also mentioned that she changes the verb, you know, and she uses the verb enter, and she changes it to the verb that, it's the same verb for ganka, ferry, bodhisattva.

[56:24]

It ferries across. So this place will ferry across horses but not asses. So now I thought maybe we would get some of your impression of what she might have been communicating in this way. Yeah, that's really the, yeah, well done.

[57:39]

That's the manifest meaning. for those of you who've done Koan Worker know something about it. It is about getting to the heart of the matter without any words. So, this would have been her training. This is his training. So, let's get to the point. Let's cut to the chase here. Is this what this is about? You know, without saying, is this because I'm a girl that you're picking on me? He says, oh, okay, well, here. Here's your koan, and here's what we're working on right here. This is the heart of the matter. Now, say a word of this. And, uh, you know, what?

[58:47]

Use a shape. Well, he acted out the problem, exactly. Heís like, oh, never mind then, excuse me, can I go in there? So, he is revealed to himself. Yeah, he is revealed to himself. So, in her very skillful teaching method, Let's get to the heart of it. This is what it's about, isn't it? You don't have to say any words. This is what it's about. I'm not afraid to get to the heart of the matter with you. Right. There's another level of the koan in that it's like what would you be finding problems with?

[59:48]

You know, you who call yourself a Buddhist, where do you think the Buddha came from? So, I know Agnes asked one time about what does it mean when it covers the whole earth? This is what it means. It's like she covers everything with this one action. She finds one action to express it all. He talks about entering. And she talks about carrying the cross. Right after she talked about birth. Right. She even takes his sexual kama and transforms it into the bodhisattva vow. Yes, you know, I know that my purpose is to carry everyone across. but not like this. Now you're acting like it. You're not going. The boat's not taking you in that way.

[60:52]

So, she does transform it into, again, you know, the presence of mind in this situation to transform, you know, this very charged moment to a bodhisattva bath. Was this Nelson? Yes. So she was Nelson? Yes. She probably, might have, might have. Yeah. Well, I've heard other people ask that question too. You know, that this is one of, you know, that is there a tantric reference in there? And of course there is. It covers everything. It covers everything. So, her approach is quite conventional and truthful and down to earth. At the same time that she's become his teacher in this moment.

[61:56]

She's the one who had said to Yuan Wu, you know, when did the Buddha Dharma say there was male and female forms? And she's teaching him. you know, by talking about the interconnectedness and what you were referring to, Shannon, everything changes form. The Buddhas, you know, and patriarchs all came through this place. That's what kind of a place this is. In this moment, you see this. In another moment, the Buddhas and patriarchs are here. Yes, and she's talking about both the sort of absolute level where there isn't any distinction and Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, both are true simultaneously. It covers heaven and earth. Context is everything, isn't it?

[63:06]

It doesn't mean that waving one's private parts is necessarily some manifestation of truth. In this occasion, she was singing in tune. She gave an appropriate response. There was no more to say. What could she have said in words to this man? After the teacher, after his own teacher had said, you know, lay off. She knows what she's doing. She has some value. If he wouldn't listen to his teacher, what was he going to hear from her? She knew that. So this shows a very strong courage. This, remember, this is the well-brought-up lady from the inner quarters, you know, who now is, well, we're just going to let it all hang out for the sake of the Dharma.

[64:14]

She's come a long way. It really reminds me of a couple of experiences I've had in the monastic setting and how highly charged being, as a woman, being with celibate monks is. I remember that one winter I went there and when I arrived they were about to have a ceremony, and I had my meeting with the abbot. He said, well, don't you want to go do the ceremony? And I said, yes. So immediately, a monk showed up at my door and said, now. He said, now we're going. I said, well, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't have, it was very, very cold. I didn't have anything warm on. And so I started, I had on, God knows how many layers, but nothing on my feet. You're not allowed to have anything on your feet. So I had on pants, and I put on a leg warmer. over stockings, which were cut off at the ankle, so it wasn't like I was naked. And in the moment that I lifted my pant leg, put my leg on top, the monk who was standing at the door went like this. and turned his back, and I said, oh my God, and that's just my ankle, so I'm just thinking about, you know, it was, it kind of blew my mind, I said, oh my God, my ankle is too much, my ankle is too much here, so it was, and so there's this kind of tension and also this necessity, you know, in practicing in this situation of being so appropriate.

[65:43]

And for her to blow it out completely, you know, I can't even imagine, you know, I mean, she might have thought, well, you know, Dawei's going to throw me out for this one. I had another experience where I had to kind of take the risk of getting thrown out. I wasn't as outrageous as this, but one of the monks hit me. And they're not supposed to hit me. They can hit each other. They beat each other up, but they're not supposed to hit me. And I let him hit me. He kind of slugged me in the back. And I thought about it, kind of, you know, it was one of those things I was sort of seen with for days and thought, well, you know, I could go to the Abbott, but there's only so many chits you have. You know, there's boys in here. You know, get your protection. You're only going to, you know, only do that so many times. So I thought about it and thought about it. I said, well, you know what? If he hits me again, I'm going to let my body answer. And if I knock a few teeth out and I get kicked out for it, they'll have to tell the abbot why.

[66:48]

And it was a really wonderful moment for me, understanding that I was just going to have to answer with my body. You know, I could rat on him or I could say, don't you ever touch me. But really, I mean, for me, well, I don't even know what it would be like. I mean, because just to have a woman in the monastery anyway is so absurd. And but that for the he was seeing me as a junior monk and they can hit all the junior monks. And so if a junior monk ever hit anybody back, I don't even know what would happen. So anyway, the next time he looked across at Zendo at me and was ordering me to get my feet and my legs in half lotus because I was sitting in Seiza, I just went. and sort of went like that, so he never put a hand on me again, but I had to find that place in my body, which was, no, I have to find my place, and whatever the cost is, you know, sort of, in the Rinzai monasteries, it's do or die, you know, you have to find your place and you have to inhabit it with your body, or, you know, it just becomes too unpleasant.

[68:03]

you know, it's like this sort of kicking on you thing. So I can't, I can imagine in a certain way what it was like for her to go through this idea of what she was actually going to do with him and what was at stake for her that, you know, the, the, the atom might throw her out. You know, the, the, privilege of a woman coming in and studying one of these men under these circumstances and for her to do something like this, you know, to put it all at risk. It's very powerful. Like, I think it was a mistake. The mistake was this guy, Patrick. I mean, everybody else was gone. That was... That's right. she, by her position, was saying something she was willing to.

[69:05]

That's right. That's right. I'll pay this, too, for the sake of the truth, for the sake of saying a true word of Zen and expressing myself completely. I'll put it all on the table. in her use of language, I think it was structured from the gentleman. What do you mean? Say what? She says, she wants to eat in a Buddhist way or in a secular manner. So he says in a Buddhist way. So I think the die is cast. And so I think that she has some confidence about how things will proceed. You don't think she's at risk? I think that the risk is there. I think the risk is there.

[70:05]

I mean, I can see your point that she, he agreed to a Buddhist setting, but he could change his mind. Well, I think that's true, but I say, I don't know, I think she's not the child. She clearly does. I think the risk is there. I mean, she's really, she's really an extraordinary person, you know, and she knows she's, aware of her power. It reminds me of when... Yes, touch the earth. That's where she's coming from. Well, I guess it's a kind of confidence that comes from her speech and her thoughts. But doesn't she also know him? I mean, if she's been his teacher... Well, no, she hasn't been his teacher. Oh, but She hasn't been his teacher. He won't have anything to do with her. She's observed him. She's observed him.

[71:06]

So she would have some sense. You know, I agree with you completely on this, that she's very much in control, but this is a really wonderful exposition of a woman moving totally against what she's been conditioned to expect. You have been trained since you've been a young girl not to make eye contact with a man that you don't know. She does more than eye contact. What? In terms of the shockiness of it, I mean, if Kwan's made so much more sense to me, understanding kind of the hierarchy and the respect that's owed to fathers, father figures, and all that, that you would never strike them. So the striking is, you know, going so much against the outranking. This is... Yeah, to the ant's degree, right. Yeah, if I were to hit one of these guys, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[72:09]

Yeah. So moving along in this koan, we're almost to the end of our time. Her composure and her control. Now, the teacher's response. What do you think of this teacher's response? The teacher's response is, when the monk goes and tells him what happened, he says, it is certainly not the case that the old beast does not have any insight. Now, I mean, it's wonderful to take a look at the juxtaposition of the Chan teaching and the Buddha's words about all these rules, about the separation of monks and nuns, and, you know, never to be alone.

[73:17]

And here, this teacher is told of this complete breach of all of these rules. And what's his response? Well, I guess you guys learned a few things here, didn't you? Just that my experience of some students, maybe especially in residential setting, I'm not sure, but that when somebody has the confidence to acknowledge their difficulties or their weaknesses or their faults or whatever. They're seen as, and I think Oprah was seen as very strong people.

[74:32]

There's some kind of confidence there that I see in her. Yeah, in her exposure. Yeah. There's something about not being other than what you are, for her taking her woman-ness to the ultimate here and saying, I'm not pretending that I'm something else. I don't have to say, you know, what's wrong with being a woman. I'm not really a woman. I'm a monk. I've transcended it. No, she just says, as you say, this is what I do. And then he praises her. Ironically, he praises her. Yeah, well.

[75:32]

That's the teacher. The teacher praises her. Yeah. Or, well, let's look at the teacher's words. Could be. The translation in the Chinese is about something that isn't refined, referring to, you know, primitive function. That's, you know, but it also means, I'm sure means that. His lust has some insight. Everyone's lust has insight. Everyone's humanity, if you take it to the truth of the matter, is a Dharma door. Everyone's humanness, everyone's passion, everyone's longing, everyone's male and femaleness, the beast is not without insight.

[76:33]

But you just have to be completely clear, get to the bottom of it. The first manifest meaning is more about her. Well, you can't say that the beast lacks insight. What she did was very crude, and this is kind of what the beast refers to. But it goes through all the layers of not only about her, but also about him and his lust. And Mary... Yes, very much so. Miriam Levering also says it could also refer to Da Hui. He's the one who set it up. You can't say that the beast lacks insight. Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. I'm the old teacher. But ultimately sexuality, desire, you can't say it's totally without insight.

[77:35]

You get to the bottom of it. Old beast. Yeah, well, that's pretty old. Yeah, all of our primitive drives are most, our most original kind of drive. that the senior student is actually testing her. Well, he was, wasn't he? Yeah. So follow it. In other words, is it going to be the senior student could be going to her. She does this. And they're sort of testing each other out.

[78:37]

They're basically saying, OK, I can't do this. That could be a test to her. Is she going to play me? Right. Is this a flirtation? Yeah, no intention. Yeah, maybe he did. Maybe not. I don't know. What was he ashamed of? After she turned her back. Maybe I'm missing a part where, where do we know that he's ashamed? Oh, it says that. In two places it says that he was ashamed. But I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right that he's going in there to test her. And once he's in there, it's like, oh, you put this card on the table. He has a lot of presents. He says, so what's this mean? And then when she says something about the Buddha's coming, it's like, all right. So that's what it is. Am I a Buddha? Do I enter too? He says, it says in here, and I think in the translations you have too, in two places, what she says.

[79:37]

She turns her back. Yeah, the interview with the senior monk has ended. She then turned over and faced the wall. Wanan became embarrassed and left. And also, when he goes back to the teacher and tells him what happened, and the teacher says, it's certainly not the case that the old beast does not have any insight. It says, one-on was a shame. But you're right, because the shame could refer to his embarrassment about being so prejudiced about women. and she won, she turned her back, she called for this, and he didn't have a comeback. He failed the co-op. He failed the co-op with a woman who he thought had no worth. So it could be that, absolutely, that we do get this question as can I enter or not, you know, has the meaning, has the manifest meaning and then other meanings, you know, it's like the next move, it's the next move.

[80:41]

So, I mean, it's interesting, it's not like, you know, fail and come on. But it's not our usual sense. And there's no word of failure here. The fact that he's embarrassed means that he sees what's missing. And Dogen says this, you know, when you're far away from enlightenment, you think you've got it all. And when you actually have seen something, then you realize how much is missing. And he had a view of, oh, I've got some ways to go with that. Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks for being brave enough to bring it up, too, because I think it's important to see all the sides of it that we can't. It wasn't necessarily the traditional wolf move. So we're over time.

[81:47]

Well, within the context, I mean, once we end the class, it's sort of scattered. Well, we have to do the chanting. Go ahead. We'll pass those around. Next week, we'll talk about tea ladies. So it would be good if you could read this stuff. Oh. Yes. I can explain the tea ladies. turn people around and wake people up and surprise people. Anyway, these women are very often very wise and obviously Yes, they're different.

[83:19]

Okay, also I want to make one last little announcement real quick that next week at the break, we're going to ask you to evaluate the class about what worked well, what didn't work well, suggestions about what we may do better and what you'd like to study in more depth. So you could be thinking about that when you're reading and so on. And we'll pass those out next week, the evaluations. Okay, we're ready now.

[83:42]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ