questions and they each have a list. They each include a list. The first one is a list of the kinds of topics that one studies in a Protestant seminary education. I'll give you the list and I'll just ask you to talk about what your own either formal training or individual studies in these various areas has been. And then the second question is just a list of kind of traditional topics related to ordination in Buddhism, and just kind of off the top of your head. So there you go. So how do I describe my formal training or individual studies? Yeah. Well, in Zen Center, Suzuki Ueshi didn't give us anything to study, although he did lecture So we had to study on our own.

[01:02]

Q. You had quite a library. A. Yeah. Well, we didn't have a library then. Q. But you said that you developed a library. A. Oh, yeah, I developed a library here. Yeah, but that was after. Well, that was, yeah. At Sakochi we had a library which consisted of a book bookcase about that size. Oh, okay. But during the late 70s books started coming out. Uh-huh. That's when I started collecting the books. So we started, the senior students studied on their own. And then we just started giving classes. And so we studied and gave a class on what we studied. And that's how we educated ourselves. Although there were... Kanze was giving talks at Cal, and so was Dr. Jahnke.

[02:14]

He was giving classes, and some people weren't there. And we studied a little bit with them. We did actually during the late 70s, early 70s, late 60s, we studied in Lancaster. So did he come do workshop kind of things or did you actually took classes? No, no, [...] no Pretty much that we're all self-educated. OK. And then scriptural analysis and interpretation. Self-education. OK. Buddhist philosophy. Same thing. They taught Buddhist languages. Some people studied Buddhist language.

[03:17]

Sanskrit. Some people studied Japanese. You study Japanese? Do you study them not to do names? You do your own calligraphy? Well, I just learned calligraphy on my own. Oh, okay. And liturgy and ritual worship, I mean ritual leadership. We learned that from Tatsuta Kami. Oh, right. Right. and religious education, I don't know what that is. Well, that's like Hebrew school or what Christians do, Sunday school, you know, learning how to educate other people in terms of religion. Well, we just had our teachers in the parish. That was our religious education. and raised Japanese teachers that came to Sensei. Okay, and you've done your own versions of religious education mostly just by doing, by your own study and by getting up there and giving classes. Well, yeah, but you know, a lot of our religious education is just what we learned from the Japanese.

[04:22]

So that's where we have the Japanese style and the formal practice was education, you know. And so that gave us a structure for doing all this. And then as far as, you know, the book work, we just did the book work on our own, which is what you do anyway. And then preaching, public speaking, we just started giving talks. And our talks was in the style of our teacher's talks. And pastoral counseling was something that Everyone just did according to their ability. And leadership and administration, during the Richard Baker years, he was very good at administration.

[05:24]

He taught people administration. That was his big thing. So he built up the treasury. I had people do and practice these decisions of administration. That's part of the practice, and they became very good administrators. In law and professional ethics, Does that statement apply to you too? I mean, did you also do part of your practice through administration or you were over here in Berkeley at that time? Well, I was, you know, I did, I was over here in Berkeley then. I was the director of Castle Harbor. And I had a pair of paintbrushes. It was a go-to. Those may be the only two positions I held in Cincinnati.

[06:30]

But I may have had a different position, but I don't think so. I think those are the two positions. And then just as a teacher. Right, and you talked about learning how to do the books here and that kind of thing, yeah. Yeah, with all sorts of stuff. Right. OK. So how has your training or lack of it in these areas affected your ministry? I think my training, which is the model from my teachers, has helped a lot. The structure, the formal practice, maintaining the structure and the formal practice has really helped to maintain the practice. And probably some lack of it has been a problem.

[07:34]

I can't say what that is. I don't know. It's something else. It's something pretty unique. And then was there a time when you had difficulty because you faced situations in which you needed training in one of these areas but didn't have it? I don't remember that. Okay, not in, like a pastoral counseling thing, that's one place where it might come up. You know, if you have... Well, I don't know. See, I also had training on the street. Uh-huh. When I was a taxi driver for six years. Uh-huh. That was... One day Richard Baker says, where did you get your training? I said, I was a taxi driver for six years. So you have to suss people up pretty quickly. Well, yeah, I mean, you know, you just get everybody and then you have to relate to everybody.

[08:37]

And then you have all these people that ask you for advice and, you know, and you become a kind of traveling psychiatrist. The Shrinkmobile. The Shrinkmobile, you bet. So, and I've always, you know, I had an ear to listen to people. It's always been one of my inherent qualities, I guess, you know. And so I just applied that to, you know. I think it's important not to insert yourself when you're dealing with people.

[09:39]

As much as possible, just listen. Not to give so much advice, but to point people toward where they can advise themselves. So, there's no end to that, learning that. So, I don't really rely a lot on intuition. And just sitting back and waiting for something to come out. I imagine in the wake of Richard Baker's departure and in the process of developing the ethical guidelines both here and at San Francisco's NCERD, you probably got some kind of... Oh, yeah. I mean, we spent years, you know, defining, I don't know, working out the definition of ethical conduct. And you finally came up with a booklet.

[10:44]

But that took years. I mean, I would say five years of working on it. Before coming up with one, maybe longer. So, oh yeah. We found that through our practical... practical aspect of it. Okay. Like a lot of lawyers are now. Ah. Therapists are now. And it's not good for therapists. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So, they kind of help to... kind of themselves. Be like a... you know, to... form some kind of therapeutic cushion. Okay. Then, if you want to, if you flip that over, the other side there.

[11:45]

There you go. That's just a list of topics. So in some of them we talked about already, but whatever you want to say in any of those areas. So how do you understand and practice the following traditional themes of coordination? Renunciation and home leaving. Well, I don't think we practice renunciation in the sense of... I think what renunciation means for us here at Zen Center is renunciation of ego. It doesn't necessarily mean laying down the world. And home leaving is defined somewhat as leaving home without going anywhere.

[12:48]

Or what it means is realizing there's no permanent place to settle. So home leaving means to find your true home in Zazen, which doesn't mean that you don't have a place to practice or even a family. So there probably could be some more renunciate But we only got there. And then the precepts, of course, are important. And we ask people to follow the precepts, and we take the precepts. And we have to realize what the precepts are.

[13:50]

Because it's not just simply don't do this and don't do that. There are three levels of precepts that you have to pay attention to. One is the literal precept. the literal meaning of the precept, then the non-dualistic meaning of the precept, and then what's so-called Bodhisattva understanding of the precept, which is between the literal and the non-dualistic, to whenever you do something to take both of those sides into account. And so there's no special way to observe the precepts But every moment is an opportunity to decide what is the thing to do, given the two aspects. So then Ocasea and Tonshir, what does that mean?

[14:51]

Well, Ocasea is the robe. It's a layer of a priest robe. And Tonshir usually means priest robe. No, don't touch me. It's shaving your head. Oh, shaving your head. So that's the priest. So he said, well, what's the difference between the priest and the layperson? And that's always a big question. And it's somewhere in between. A layperson can practice just like a priest, but they're a layperson. And a priest can practice with aspects of a layperson, just like a priest. even though they have the same practice, more is expected of the priest. In other words, when a priest takes the tonsure, in the case of a priest, they expect to dedicate their lives to the practice. Whereas the layperson, although they may dedicate their lives to the practice, they're not expected.

[15:55]

It's not the same expectation. It's not the same expectation of commitment. And so we do expect that kind of commitment And then celibacy, we've never imposed celibacy, except occasionally for various reasons. But it always keeps coming up. And so we've chosen, when you have celibacy, you have problems. And when you don't have celibacy, you have problems. And so either way you have problems. And we've chosen to take, whether by choice or not, we've chosen to take the road of non-celibacy and its problems, attendant problems. But we stress carefulness and non-propriety.

[17:00]

and faithfulness in relationships. So apparently, at least in discussions about ordination anyway, some stability. Stability, yeah. That's right. And ancestors and lineage. They're both. Okay. What about it? Well, when we take the precepts, when we have Jukai, or ordination, We're joined to the bloodline of the ancestors. And so that has meaning for us. And the Begging, Patronage, and Collaboration... What meaning does it have for you? Well, it means that... It means being a member of the family of ancestors doesn't mean necessarily dumping my own blood ancestry.

[18:03]

It simply means having the privilege of joining this long line of people who kept the dormant life. And also, passing it down. And then begging, you know, I think it's not, in America, it's difficult to beg because we're not supporting ourselves, because we already have, you know, a system of support. Meaning a non-profit corporation and charitable donations kind of thing? Or memberships? Uh-huh.

[19:05]

And, you know, also we work for a living. Because the money generated from Tazahara and so forth goes to our support. So it's a different system. And although paying is nice and a kind of tokenism, you know, somebody might do that. It's not something that I think is possible except as a kind of tokenism. So when you say the word begging, are you equating it in your mind with Takahatsu? Although we can ask for things. We do ask for things. Yeah. But fundraising is a kind of takahatsu. Fundraising is a kind of begging. Because we're asking people for their support.

[20:06]

And the way we pay them back is through our practice. So whatever you get, you're paying through. It's not like you get something free. You do get something. Even when you're doing takahatsu, you pay people with it. As in the Mail Chant we say, we hope that our virtual practice deserve it. So it's only through our virtual practice that we receive this. So that's how we pay it back. So we have to work hard to pay back for fundraising, for banking, for whatever it is. In patronage, here at Berkeley, the patrons are the members. And there are thank you notes for people's donations. So it's a kind of self-supporting thing.

[21:11]

In other places, in Zanzibar, people give money from outside. You get a lot of money from fundraising outside. All of our money comes from inside. So then there's liturgy and ritual. Oh, we just talked about that, didn't we? No. Liturgy and ritual. Well, liturgy. Ritual is a funny word, because it comes in Buddhism. Ritual. is, from Buddha's point of view, he saw ritual as coming from the Vedic priesthood. And in the Vedic priesthood, the priests did these rituals which connected people, you know, they were the mediators between heaven and earth, right?

[22:13]

But not in Buddhism so much. So ritual has a different kind of meaning. And so Buddha says, well, don't follow rules, don't follow rituals. He doesn't mean not to follow formal practice. So I equate ritual with formal practice. Okay. Rather than as a mediator. Rather than doing a ritual in order to create a scenario. In order to create some kind of magic or to create some kind of, you know, make it very immersive. So in Dharma transmission you're empowering people. Are you a mediator in that sense? Yeah. But when you empower the person, the person is empowered. You are empowered. You are a mediator. Yeah, you are a mediator.

[23:15]

Between the It's the lineage. The ancestors and the person they're receiving. So yes, in that sense you are. You're also a mediator for the dharma. So in a ritual, there are rituals. And they're empowerment rituals. That's true. And which involve liturgy. And the Dharanis are empowering or evocative. Mantras. Mantras are evocations. And offering incense is inviting Buddha or

[24:19]

a certain bodhisattva to join the practice. That's true. So would it be fair to say, sort of bringing those two pieces together, there are these sort of mediating aspects or elements, but in Dogen's sense of, maybe that's a One could talk about that vertically, as a sort of a vertical. But then Dogen is also talking about practice is enlightenment, meaning that the whole point of the ritual is to help you bring your entire body and mind into the activity of whatever it is you're doing. And in that sense, it's not a mediating activity. It's a manifestation of something that's already There. We're already... It's kind of mediating. Inmediating. Okay. I like that.

[25:22]

Okay. But it also brings everybody together. Uh-huh. So liturgy and ritual bring everybody together in a common focus. It also reminds people of what the practice is, what they're doing. And chanting like the Heart Sutra all the time helps to get it into your bones. So Zen practice basically is absorbing the practice through your pores. So when we say study in Buddhism, in Zen, That doesn't really mean study in a sense. I mean doing something over and over again. Okay. That's actually the education.

[26:26]

Uh-huh. Okay, then there's a master and mistress disciple relationship. Uh-huh. Mister and miss disciple relationship. Well, that's important. Because Zen practice is somewhat like apprenticeship, as aspects of apprenticeship. And so you traditionally, you follow, you watch the teacher, the student watches the teacher. The student goes through the motions of the teacher. And you absorb the teacher. The student really absorbs the teacher. And then when the student finds themselves in the teacher, and finds the teacher within themselves, then they find their own way.

[27:35]

And then they can leave the teacher. So it's kind of like a merging and then a separating. And Bodhisattva vows are important. Bodhisattva vows are a response to the four noble truths. Do you want to say more about that? Well, beings that remember the second vow to, we say, awaken or save them, meaning responding to Life is subject to suffering. So one saves beings from suffering. And then delusions, or actually it's desires, are numberless.

[28:41]

I'm about to give up. I hope I don't. Because desire is the second Truth. Right, the cause. The cause. And then, um, Dharma gates are boundless. I have about two inches of them all. And the third truth is that there is a way out of this pain. Yes. And then, um, the Buddha ways, there's a passable way out of it. But I can't talk about it. It's the path. Yeah, it's the path. Lay people and priests are not different. So if it's possible for priests, it's possible for lay people. And so I don't even know why that's a question. The reason why it's a question is because someone like, you know, Dogen, or various people whose lives are monastic practice,

[29:54]

favor priests. You know, they say, well, a priest is a renunciate and is devoted to the practice their whole life, practically the rest of, they're not taking up anything else. And since they can really devote themselves to practice without any inattentive, without any distractions, it's easier for them to become enlightened. But then on the other hand, he says, so I said, this is enlightenment. And our practice is enlightenment. So in Dogen's time, American practice is very unique. I mean, it's totally unique. In other countries, people don't have the leisure to practice, or the setup, or whatever it is, in the same way that we do, for some reason.

[30:58]

we can still support ourselves and practice, to one extent or another. So, it's not Dogen's time, and it's a different world. Given the circumstances of our teachers' lives, I mean, he treated everybody the same, but he treated his priests as priests. He respected them as priests, but he respected everybody as they were. So there was not a lot of distinction. He was the only one in the class that was able to do that.

[32:06]

where it was the Dharma, you know, they were addicted to, not just as somebody's disciple. Do you want to say anything else about enlightenment? Your understanding of what that means? What that word points at? Well, it means being not self-centered in order to allow the light to flow and realize the non-duality of opposites, knowing where the root is, and being established in the root.

[34:02]

That's what Zazen is. That's why we say Zazen is an enlightened Okay. Is there anything you want to add? I remember when we were talking about what are the qualifications for a priest, and one of the things that I realized later was that for the right reasons, being the dharma, and not for some, you know, position, or a lot of people think that, or some people, a lot of people think that being ordained is a prize.

[35:27]

But maybe we did talk about that. Well, I think that might come out of the whole kind of Protestant model. And I think it's also true in at least what I know of Reformed rabbinical training. It's the end of your professional training kind of thing, whereas I think in Zen it's understood as the beginning, in a sense, or a beginning. But in our practice, I realize that, you know, I'm going to have to gain some advantage, a position, you know, for which we can proclaim things. And it's like the beginning, it's like just laying everything down.

[36:45]

And laying down, you know, you go through this act of purification, which is the ceremony, and taking off of the hair, the tonsure, and renunciation, leaving home. I think leaving home means laying down all of the stuff that you've depended on. Okay, anything else? Okay, that's the end of it. formal questions. Thank you.

[37:47]

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