Tonight I'd like to talk about the various ways that Buddhists practice and how you see, and I'll go back over some of those materials, how you see within the way people are practicing in the world some of the principles that we covered in the class, how you see those brought to life in people's lives. But to backtrack a little, it seems like most of the people who are here tonight have been to every class, but just to talk a little bit about where we've been and how we'll finish up. When we started this class, we talked about the Buddha's life and how he met the problem that we all face, which is no matter how wonderful your life is, there's a time when it's not so wonderful.

[01:03]

Others have written about this too, that no matter how healthy you are, and no matter how much you practice good health, eating health foods or whatever, you'll get sick and die. And that there will be suffering, there will be aging and death. It seems to me, I don't know that we went over this in as full an exposition as I'd like to say tonight about the Buddha's life, that it's so striking that when someone has everything that we think traditionally makes us happy, how he could turn his back on that. And it's hard for me to imagine in the present day world any examples of that. While some people kind of get religion and like in Watergate there were a few characters who became born again Christians afterwards and really turned their life around.

[02:07]

It's really quite something that's quite remarkable when we think about the Buddhist life. He was very attractive by the records of the day and very intelligent and charismatic. And he had offered to him, at least by one account, many women, not just the one wife. But he was really overexposed to sexuality and could really do anything he wanted in that area. He just sort of had a whole play area for that. and had access to all this wealth and all the things that people strive for and was unhappy or realized that with all this he couldn't be protected from this unhappiness. I don't know about you but

[03:14]

For me, I still have tricks or holdouts that are going to protect me from my unhappiness. If I get that one more horse or if I take this one more course in Japanese or something, something is going to perfect me in some way. I don't sort of turn away and say that there isn't anything out there that I want to do. So that's a very remarkable thing. many emperors and rulers have come to some wisdom about and even follow Buddhist philosophy and have continued in their position, you know, and enhanced the lives of the people that have served them with Buddhist knowledge, but I don't know of any other case that's quite like this. It just strikes me, it's so remarkable. Many rulers who have found this kind of wisdom then seek out something, you know, seek out teachers or something to enhance themselves.

[04:30]

And here was someone who devoted his life to facing the truth. and to sharing it with others. So this is what he gave us. You know what else that we didn't go over in this class about the Buddha is that his mother died when he was born. And I think that it's not always talked about, but there's that kind of thread of sadness. I think that was also true of Dogen who lost his mother very early. And there's kind of this theme of sadness that no worldly things can replace. She died a child? Yes, she died. He was raised by her sister. And it was known, I guess, his father married her sister. His mother died, well, I think it was a few days maybe after he was born, but it was not long after he was born.

[05:34]

Yeah, he was married. He was married, and that was also a pretty remarkable event, which we should talk about, actually, that he was married to this woman who was very attractive, by all accounts, and who he was very attracted to, and who he loved, and who was devoted to him. And the night that he left, she had given birth, and she was there with his newborn child. When he looked at them, You know, laying there so sweetly, and he walked away. So we can have some mixed reaction to that. He called his son Rahula, which means fetter. There are also accounts later of Rahula practicing with his father. He overcame that early stigma. And he came to practice with his father, and then I even read an account of Rahula sort of pining away for a woman, for his wife maybe, and the Buddha took him.

[06:48]

on a tour of the heavenly places to sort of blow his mind so that he would forget about, you know, hey, you think women are something fantastic. Wait until you see what, I'm going to really blow your mind. So he took him on one of these heavenly journeys and showed him all of this, which was kind of interesting. I mean, these are later accounts. And while we've been talking about Buddhism as being something where Buddha didn't try to convert people, there were these instances of people like Rahula where he made this special effort to bring them into the practice and to keep them. So we talked about the Buddha's life and what he discovered, which was the Middle Way. Between asceticism and in engrossing oneself in sensory pleasures. There was something in the middle.

[07:49]

Something in the middle between craving enlightenment and a nihilistic approach that nothing mattered at all. That there was a middle path to follow. And the path was based on the fact that he had discovered these four noble truths as he sat there. And they are that there is this suffering, and the cause of this suffering is craving and desire, and that there is a way to end this craving. And not only can you end the craving, but the last truth is that there's a kind of liberation and nirvana that results. And the way, then we went on to talk about the way Buddhism structures itself in its practices, which we talked about the wisdom, morality, ethics, and meditation practices, and then how the Eightfold Path was divided into these three areas of wisdom,

[09:10]

morality, and meditation. So, this is the truths that the Buddha discovered when he turned away from all of his worldly involvement. He discovered these Four Noble Truths. And the Four Noble Truths are kind of the foundation, you know, if life is suffering and there's this... it's caused by desire, that there is a way to end it, and that there's also this liberation. So the Eightfold Path kind of comes out of these truths, or it's the last part of the truth, which is that there's a way to end this craving, and that there's this nirvana, which is kind of a bonus. I mean, it would be nice, our way to end this suffering. It would be nice enough just to be released from suffering, but the fact that there seems to be something more than that is kind of a big bonus.

[10:18]

So we then talked about the Eightfold Path and the way it could be expressed about that you're on this path, that you need to proceed at the pace that keeps it moving and so on. and how you could see that perhaps working in your own life. And then we talked about where, in a certain way, the next question we're answering is where. Where is this path practice? Where do we find it? And where do Buddhists look to manifest this path? And we did just a little bit to say that there are three refuges, or the treasures, the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha. We spent a fair bit of time talking about the Buddha's life. I think you'd like to talk a little bit about Dharma this evening?

[11:21]

We could. We'll find a space to sort of tuck it in. And then there were a couple of readings I gave about the importance of practicing with the Sangha. In a way, the Sangha is the laboratory for these ideas. Because it's one thing to have ideas and theories, or truths as Buddha called them. It's another thing to see if they work. And the way that we know that we're practicing is in our lives with other people. They can tell us, boy, that was a pretty dumb thing for you to do, or they can do things that will give us an excuse to allow our anger to arise. So we really know whether these things are true or not if we find out with our community, whether that be our family or those that we sit with, whether it makes our relationships more productive, honest, and harmonious.

[12:32]

And I've had this experience. When I first was sitting around my children, they would kind of complain, oh, mom, why don't you do this or that? And then gradually, they really got into it. It's like, mom, you're really in a bad mood. Why don't you go sit? interesting to see how quickly they picked up on that there would be something that would happen. But there's other things that happen in the Sangha, which were in the readings, about... We practice with our body and mind. And just following the way with other people is the way that we learn. And we don't necessarily need to be able to follow all the rules if we just go along with the group. And it's interesting for me in my work, I'm a psychologist, but I do a lot of groups with kids in particular, because so much of what they learn, they learn from their peers.

[13:35]

And they just pick it up. I mean, they pick up all the bad habits very immediately. All I have to do is send your kid off to school, and they'll come home, and they'll be doing all these things, and oh my God. But one of the things I discovered in doing therapy with children was how limited it was, that it was very hard for them to, it was very nice. I mean, it opened up a space that was safe for them with an adult. But now that I do groups, there's something that they have that they get out of just following the form of the group, which is they come in and they know that they've made up the rules, you know, that they can't say mean things to each other, and they can't hit each other in this particular space, and they need to listen when the other person talks, and they need to share about themselves, and how they begin to act that way. And it's very similar to what we do together. in the forms that we observe in the Zen Do, and the way we bow to one another, and the care that we take with one another. There's a kind of learning that takes place through our body, whether or not we ever read about Buddhist beliefs.

[14:42]

And then there's just simple fact, I don't know how many of you sit at home, I do, and I virtually never sit as long at home as I do when I'm here in the Zen Do. I mean, sometimes if I can tell I'm really in bad shape, I can sort of do that. But there's something about the sitting together. I don't know, maybe you all have something to say about your experience of sitting together. I'd really like to hear that. That's so powerful, and at the same time that it holds you up, you also don't want to let the other person down. Anybody want to say anything about their experience of sitting with others in Zendo? I find that just, that's true. Just what you say is just true. And my Sunday's are really hard because often what I'll do is I'll end up going to bed at like 10, 10, 1030. And I'll sit like for 10 minutes right before I go to bed.

[15:45]

Just to say I did it. Just to get it in, right. You know? Well, has everyone in here sat in the Zendo? In this one? Yeah. No, not yet. But you've sat with... Only once. Yeah. Other people? No, you haven't sat in a zendo yet. But in another zendo? No, not yet. Oh, well, I'll just try it sometime. I think it's the only time I ever sit with other people. What happens when you try to sit alone? Not a lot. I just sit. You just get up. You just go, I have to go do this. Yeah. and nothing's stopping you. So there's this kind of anchor that happens, you know? I mean, when I'm sitting at home, I say, oh, I gotta go, you know, I gotta get that laundry in, you know? There isn't that same anchor of keeping you going. What's it, I guess, uh, France? You said France? Yeah, so that is a Zendip. Yeah, that's a Zendip, yeah.

[16:47]

Is that pretty powerful when you sit there? Oh, yeah. Curious, like, do you ever find that you can explain Zazen, or coming to the Zendo, in purely social psychological terms? Like, you can say that it's reinforcing? Yeah, I mean, one could. One could just, you know, although there's something else that can't be explained, but, I don't know, a lot of the learning that goes on in the forms that are how we learn through our whole lives, right? By imitation. Well, it's interesting when people try to explain Zazen, because it can be explained on so many levels. It can be explained on this level of, well, I come because this is a group that has the same belief system and I don't want to let them down because I'm obligated and I'm committed to coming and going to these committees.

[17:50]

You know, I mean, you can explain it. It's like I'm sort of used to it. And besides that... There's a nice feeling of community. Yeah, there's community, there's competition. You know, well, how many times have I sat this week and I don't want so-and-so to get ahead of me. I mean, it could be all of the social things that apply to any group of people. And then there's also the level of Zazen is a kind of hypnosis. If anybody studied hypnosis, there's I'm not sure which is a bigger category of experience, zazen or hypnosis. Whether zazen is a kind of hypnosis or hypnosis is a kind of meditation, I'm not sure, but they're very, very similar. I remember when I had a friend who did therapy with a Jungian, and she was telling him about zazen. She didn't practice herself, but I kind of... It is!

[18:53]

I mean, that's one thing that it is. One thing that it is. Yeah. It's like, um, that picture... But you dismissed it with those kinds of words, which I didn't. It's like that picture of the elephant, you know? Each way, each system you have to describe it as a different part of the elephant, you know? And then there's this big live whole thing. I'm embarrassed for it. We're just kind of going over all that we've covered. Last week we covered, um, We finished the Eightfold Path, and then we covered the notion that Buddhas practice with Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. And I was just talking about the power of sitting with a group of people, and what it's like to do Zazen. I'm sorry I missed that. I'm in England. Yes. Well, no, we're talking about it now. So you just couldn't buzz over. My father died. Sorry to hear that. How old was he? Oh, he was 86. Yeah. He had a good age. Yeah. Was it, were you ready even though, you know, I mean, was it a surprise?

[19:54]

I was very surprised. Were you surprised? He was in great form the day before when he had a stroke. Oh. I got a call at 71, he was expecting. That's it? And I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. No, I don't think it's, it's not, it's the reason we're here. It's what will happen to all of us if we're lucky. We'll make it to 86 and have strokes. So I was wondering about your own experience of sitting by yourself and sitting in the Zendo. What the difference is like? Well, I'm actually very interested in that because I actually have sat by myself for many, many over 30 years. And I've occasionally sat with others. And I think it's totally different. I think there's a deep difference, but I'm not sure that I can articulate it. Yeah, is this one of the things you're saying? So, I mean... Well, I can't either, but I mean, I know how much more powerful it is for me.

[20:58]

I remember that it had been years since... Well, I had been sitting with Mel in the late 60s, I guess. And then was all over, lived in a commune and did all different things. Came back, well, probably because of Vietnam. We left the Bay Area during Vietnam to go to Canada. So we were in Canada for many years and then sort of circled back through the East Coast. It's like, now where was I going? You know, it's interesting. We came right back to if not Berkeley, we're in Piedmont now, but came right back to where we had been in our life when the war interrupted it, and it sort of resumed. You know, I started graduate school, and you know, it was like we picked back up, but it took us about, from the time we left Canada, it took us probably another seven or eight years to sort of wander back to where we'd been. And the first time I came back and sat in the Zen Dojo, it was such a an amazingly powerful experience and I remembered feeling like, this is better than chocolate, which is for me, I mean, that's got to be the ultimate.

[22:01]

It was just, and I thought about the different sitting that I'd done in my life and the reasons I would do it, you know, when I was away from the Zen Center, when I would get into some trouble one way or another in my mind. And just sitting for the sake of sitting in that zendo was a very amazing experience to me to come back to. So I'm not even sure if it's the people, if it's the intention, if it's the building, you know, if there's something that sneaks off of people into the walls. I don't really know. Well, I mean, for a certain extent, isn't that all part of having ritual place. That's part of it. And that really helps a great deal because you have a place in something that's bigger than you are. Yeah, well and it's a cue, you know, for your body-mind that it takes you to that particular state of mind immediately when you come there and if that's all you do there.

[23:04]

Did you discuss to an extent in Christian? To what extent is Zazen in the morning No, we haven't, but I think we're going to come to that as part of talking about practicing in your life. So that's a good question for that. So we have the where we practice is with Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. And then I talked about the different, last week I talked about the different schools of Buddhism that had arisen many years after the Buddha's death, which was the Hinayana and the Mahayana, and that now, rather than call it Hinayana, which the Hinayana was named by the Mahayanas, who said, that's the lesser vehicle, we're the greater vehicle. So now it's politically... Right.

[24:07]

Well, it's politically correct Buddhism now, I think, to not say Hinayana, because they were named that by the Mahayanas, but to say Theravada. because it's the only school of the Hinayana that's left, and it doesn't refer to them as the lesser vehicle. I think it means elders. And we talked about the difference between the two schools. Anybody remember some differences? We're kind of just back from vacation. We talked about the difference between the idea of the arhat and the bodhisattva. which is the Arhat, is the one who devotes his life to this practice for the sake of the practice itself. And the Bodhisattva is the one who practices and goes back to save all beings. In general, we think of the Theravadin practice as monastic, and Mahayana has a monastic element, but not exclusively so.

[25:09]

It had wide appeal and developed a lot of stories that kind of competed with both Hinduism and Shinto in Japan. Stories of the Buddhas before Buddha and all these Bodhisattvas flying around and all these heavenly realms. That was all developed by the Mahayana. The Theravadin practice did not include all of these folk stories or whatever, which have been written down as sutras now. And the other thing that I mentioned last time about the difference between the two schools was the way that they regarded the Buddha. The Buddha, according to Theravadan practice, is venerated for himself and his life. And while the Mahayana venerate him, they see the Buddha as an example of a transcendent principle, but not THE transcendent principle, but one example of how the transcendent principle manifests.

[26:20]

In that sense, Shakyamuni? Yes, Shakyamuni. Yes, that Buddha. So one of the questions which I thought would be a good question for us to talk about in terms of we had a lot of material presented last time and didn't really have much discussion. But I thought it would be interesting to hear from you given the complexity of our lives and how much work needs to be done in the world. And I read a little bit to you about Thich Nhat Hanh's idea that mindfulness in our practice must be engaged. Do you think that practicing as a Theravadin, which is to just practice in a monastic way and to practice for the practice of self is selfish? No. Yes, no. I see both directions. So go ahead. Let's have a discussion about that and what the balance seems right between the two. So go ahead. People say yes, no. You can't really help others until you've learned about yourself.

[27:27]

And the idea of the Theravada school is that the purification process will enable you, or the practitioner, to extend that to all beings. So there's a bodhisattva quality in it. But what if, you know, we take this notion that you practice and this extending of whatever it is you're getting is in some intangible way. In other words, you're not going out and working in a certain way. The only thing you're going to do is go out and beg. So you're not... your greeting is, you know, with your bowl, silently. Well, I think you're speaking of maybe hundreds and thousands of years ago, the way they did it. But, for example, Usalananda, I said on Wednesdays, Vipassana, And he goes out and does a lot of things. When the Buddhists were murdered, where was that, down in Cupertino? About a year and a half ago.

[28:34]

It was in Arizona. Yeah, it was another state. He went there and talked to the... in a psychological way. So to me, that's not just vague. I mean, he's going out and he's... Right, he is, but what if he didn't? Well, what if he didn't, is my point, if he didn't? I mean, because we could say, yes, there's some... I mean, he is incorporating some Bodhisattva ideal, and we're saying, what about if we had an example of those who chose to practice by living a monastic life and not doing that? What would you think then? Would you think it was selfish? I think if you harm no one, you can't be selfish. It's interesting. It doesn't seem as though it's me. Is that the one about when they had to decide whether or not... To just meditate or to go help the people during the war.

[29:47]

In the end they decided to do some of each. So you think there should be a balance. Ron, why don't you... Well, it seems to me that there is this quality in the Theravada seeking self-perfection. When you're perfect, then you can help somebody else. But it doesn't, it isn't, it isn't as process-oriented as the Mahayana school. That is, if you get a certain insight into a certain way of thinking, then putting it into practice in life will be helping others to their readiness for I think it's more process-oriented. I don't think you can be as selfish in the process as you can in the perfect and then helping somebody else.

[30:51]

The idea of self as a goal is a problem for the thoroughbreds. You mean that they get lost in themselves? Yeah. I think that it's good. I don't really see them as like they're all that different actually, but I've never actually done a Theravadin practice, but I mean if everything is totally interpenetrated then the fact that except to be what it is, just this wild area that somehow helps the whole earth by being wild.

[31:54]

And I think that people ought to be able to do that too, you know, just to be practicing, you know, without doing anything necessarily. That there ought to be a space for that. He gives readings after each evening practice, and I would say it's like the compassion we speak of. He talks a lot about the hindrances and how to have insight into the hindrances and the defilements. I would say there's more focus on that than there is on compassion.

[32:56]

But then again, they're interrelated, I guess, in the sense that if we control our anger or see it clearly, we don't inflict it upon others, and that is compassion, or something like that, in that respect. Well, I think the question points a difference. It was one of the differences, actually. It was pointed out when I was discussing, and I forgot to mention again, Mahayana and the Theravadin, is that there's more emphasis on wisdom in Theravadin, and more emphasis on compassion in Mahayana. And he is a scholar, and his readings, I would say, some people might say it's very, sort of, on the cruel side, or stoic, or, that I like, I mean, I enjoy a lot, but, yeah, let's just say, in comparison to Mel, It's quite different in that sense. But he's a delight to listen to, and his readings are inspiring. You see what I mean?

[33:57]

Yes, it's different. Well, I think people could say about us, in a certain way, putting so much energy into ourselves and our practice when we do a session, that that's rather selfish. It's like we use all this energy, and it doesn't go back out, shaking your head. No, I agree with you. It's like letting the pool settle itself out. Yeah, like Greg was saying about Alaska. So there's a lot of lessons to be learned by not doing that. Well, it's interesting for me to sort of catch my judgments about it. And we all, I think, have them about how we choose to find the balance between practicing and just practicing and doing something in the world and doing it

[35:00]

for a practice, but not getting caught in it in a certain way for fame. I mean, there's just this, always this play back and forth. In other words, if nobody notices what you're doing, do you still find value? Do you still live it completely? Go for it. you may be, and I think volcanoes are very violent, and that's nature, and we're not, we're part of nature, and Chinese come along and blow the Tibetans off their plateau into the rest of the world, it may be a wonderful thing in the sense of the dying of Tibet,

[36:57]

and the rebirth of some of those ideas in the rest of the world. So if you look at it Well, you know, you've raised several points. I mean, and one I want to speak to, because you raised this first point was about selfishness. And the second is, are there really any universal values? And actually, there are. There are universal values. And while Buddhism has some laws that are neutral, which is impermanence, emptiness, and so on, it has others that have value.

[38:04]

such as the cessation of suffering is the direction we're going in. But I wanted to say something about the selfishness because we had a lot of discussion about the idea about whether there was a god in Buddhism or whether it would be okay if there were. And so I was reading in Daisetsu Suzuki's book, Mysticism, Christian and Buddhist. And for those of you who are interested in that topic, it's very rich and he talks about Eckhart's Christianity is being very close to Dogon Zen. But also he talks about self and selfishness and the difference between Christianity and Buddhism. And it was very poignant to me to read about this difference. And it may be something about what you're getting at when you say, you know, why do people get down on people for being selfish? I'm not sure it exists. Because he said that this idea was horrible, just a horrible sight for Buddhists and Easterners to see for the first time, the crucifixion.

[39:10]

And that it was cruel and sadistic. And just sort of like they look at it, it's like, ugh. And we've kind of grown used to seeing it. But he said that they crucified him, they crucified Christ, because there's a concept in Christianity that there's a self. And because of that, the self needs to be extinguished or punished for its selfish cravings. So if there's a self, you would have the extinction of it through this crucifixion. Whereas Buddhists don't believe there's self, so there isn't anything that needs to be punished in the same way. So this idea that I think there's a lot involved in mystical notions of the necessity of one part dying before something else can be born.

[40:15]

And that dying may not be at all pleasant. And yet, if something else is to be reborn, this is a different language, a different Yes, it is. It's very different, and that's what I was getting at. First of all, this notion of the crucifixion, and the second thing is that he said, when you see the Buddha in death, he is lying horizontal, and you see Christ in death, he's vertical. And there's a kind of arrogance and uprightness and concept of mastery over nature in Christianity that there isn't in Buddhism. There's this kind of, you know, laying along the earth. That kind of violence comes from meeting, you know, like this and this, you know, that cross. There's a dynamism to it that sort of just gently rolling along and being horizontal to the earth doesn't bring forth that same kind of violent image, yeah. I think a lot of that is what the interpretations of the various priests have brought to bear upon what Christ taught.

[41:16]

And if you go back to the teachings of Christ, it doesn't give It's more of a spiral, really, spiritually speaking. I think that separation is associated with personal salvation. The Buddhists, of course, don't believe in that. I think that personal salvation is part of that violence of separation And that's where the punishment came in. Yeah. Sin. Yeah. Right. And if there is no self, then there's no self to sin.

[42:17]

So there's a whole, you know, gentler approach to the relationship to the world. What are we repenting, then, when we do Bodhisattva ceremonies? What do you think? It's karma, all our ancient twisted karma, but is that not analogous to sin. kind of an inherent evil.

[43:20]

There's not this nature of this inherent evil that's coming to get you. It's more that you just made a mistake. You made a mistake, and you acknowledge that you made a mistake, and you just go on. But it's not a heavier-duty kind of lurking evil. Maybe just on a more psychological or emotional level, Well, I think the wording is interesting, too. I mean, I now fully avow. Which is, I think, means I own it. You know, I stated, I did it. Which is, I think, a more Christian way would be to say, I disavow. In other words, there's the cutting off of it. Or forgive me. The duality of, oh God, forgive me. Yeah, take it away. I own what I did and I take full responsibility. Yeah, and I'm going to contain it.

[44:21]

Yeah, it's like, I own it, you know, it exists within this, and there's a kind of purification of it, but I'm not taking it and saying, this is bad over here, and you know, this is the devil over here, and I'm on this side, and I'm going to get rid of it. against the natural, something out here that you've gone against and sort of spoiled, but just that you just made a mistake in your own life and you acknowledge that. As you interpret the precepts, which I said earlier. Well, and we have greed, hate and delusion that we are born of and with and are constantly acknowledging as part of ourselves, not that we can get away with it and get away from it.

[45:24]

It's not out there somewhere that you're resisting or embarrassed or ashamed of. It's what we all have. Yeah, it's what we are. It's what we have to work with. All of us. Whereas if you come out to the external, exoteric view, they're wildly different.

[47:07]

So when people say Christianity says, I think it's almost always wrong. Yes, right. I think that that's something that's extremely comforting to me, that when you get to the core of various religious practices, you find this wonderful commonality. that what's true is true, and people have adapted it, and so on. So, we were talking about our practicing as a Sangha and differences in Buddhism and Christianity. Why would I include such a thing? What is it that she's using from her Buddhist practice in handling this pain, because I think it's something that's really essential to all of our lives, which is that we meet these extremely painful circumstances, and there's somewhere we dig deep around in all of this that we've talked about and all that we've practiced in the Zen Do to meet these circumstances with.

[48:18]

Do you guys have it or do you need another copy? I gave it out a week before he went away. Why don't you just sort of describe it briefly. I don't think you'd be able to read it. Describe what the situation was. Well, I took out some of the parts that I thought were more graphic. But anyway, the situation was a young woman after a sashay was just getting out of her car to go up to her office and she was attacked in her car. And then she writes in this book, in this, the path of, it's in the Path of Compassion, this article on rape, about the enlightenment that is related to her fully experiencing her suffering. To go towards the enemy, no resistance. To go towards and merge with the object and therefore to lose the subject. These things I had contemplated fully the week before at Sashin. at catching the Moon Mountain Monastery.

[49:21]

In the middle of this horrible commotion, still calm from Sachine, I tried to go towards my enemy, even in rape. To the ordinary mind, this is heresy. This is the guilt that I didn't defend myself. But who is there to defend? Only to become fully the situation, a woman amidst a violent crime, where passivity and compliance gets her out alive. I tried to stay in the center now, to realize the impermanence of this horrific situation. One breath after the next breath through the tunnel of this trap until I was out. So I couldn't see what direction he left in. He made me kiss the front seat. I knew it was over, my heart pounding to go towards my victim, my oppressor as victim. I felt so deeply his suffering to go towards my oppressor's suffering, to become suffering, to be simply in the action of the crime without judgment. I came out alive. Who can be ungrateful or not respectful even to senseless things?

[50:23]

not to speak of man, even though he may be a fool, be warm and compassionate toward him. If by chance he should turn against me and become a sworn enemy, and abuse and persecute me, I should sincerely bow down with humble language, in reverent belief that he is the merciful avatar of Buddha, who used devices to emancipate me from sinful karma that has been produced and accumulated upon myself, by my own egoistic delusions and attachment through the countless cycles of Kappa. Now, two weeks later, there are many supposed to's of hate, I do not have the ordinary world's reaction, and so on. So I was just, in terms of all the things we've talked about, in the way we practice, what do you notice in the way she's practicing with us? What did she do with it afterwards?

[51:24]

Did she go to the police? She went to the police. I think she's not blaming herself for anything that she mentions. Yes, who's to know? Who's to know where we came in on this scene? Did I hit him in some last life and is this catching up to me? Or what? Who's to know? There's no blaming of self, yeah, that's one of the characteristics. It's very possible to go to the police without blaming yourself, but just trying to the fellow that did this, he has to be accounted for in some way.

[52:29]

And the only thing is to dissuade him from facing that or she usually did the right thing, I think. So, you know, he needs help too. And, you know, in this particular way of being helped and the appropriate action is maybe that he be arrested or stopped to think about this for a while. Was her main point that she came out alive? I mean, that's, I guess, what I wonder from it. It seems like it's one of her points. It doesn't seem like it was her main point. It was, like, sort of like a side. It's interesting that she added that in. Go ahead. I think it's absolutely marvelous. It's what? I think it's marvelous what she did. I mean, it seems to me to be able to carry through and not to let So that... But what was the change?

[53:36]

What was it that you've experienced that was... Can you articulate at all what was not ordinary about her way of conceiving of this? Well, I would say, I mean, one thing is from my evidence that she, in fact, there was a unification of her thinking and her behaving test. I mean, I always used to imagine when I was young, being captured by the Germans, tortured, and how would one be? And you feel pain would wipe out anything that you'd ever learned.

[54:45]

But obviously there were some people for whom that wasn't true. Yeah, that it went deep, that something in their experience was deep enough. that there was something in them that wasn't completely taken up by the moment. And that seems so miraculous and terribly impressive. Well, there's a couple things that strike me. One is the turning towards suffering. It's not like she's talking about it like this. acknowledging this whole circumstances in herself, sort of from a life-centered view, not from, oh poor miserable me, and you know, I can't quite feel this. So there's this turning towards suffering, and really accepting the suffering as it's occurring, as this is a circumstance of life, this suffering that I'm in right now, it isn't someone doing this to me, there's this suffering.

[55:52]

And the other thing that struck me was how she talks about losing the focus of object and subject, you know, in this particular moment, that that's an artificial boundary, gets lost. And very politically incorrect, that something positive comes out of this for her. I did not know then that this violator would turn the world around, that this rapist would set my mind free, or that my anger would kill him pounding and stabbing my empty couch at midnight. Everything is in reverse. I see in one of Frida Kahlo's paintings that the roots of a tree are coming out of a skeleton buried in its soil. Death fertilizing life, as this rape nourishes my understanding and suffering teaches our souls." So there's something that is so compelling about this particular suffering experience.

[57:02]

that her full attention is on it, there isn't any way to get out of it. There was a woman, I don't know if you knew her, who used to come sit here, in fact lived here for a while, who was attacked by a grizzly bear in Yellowstone, and she had lived in Tassajara. It's kind of one of those situations, I used to see her come and sit in this really soft, comfortable chair, and think, um, what would she need that chair for? You know, this great judgment of mine, you know, I'm so wonderful, I can sit here in my posture, right? She needs this chair. And, um, so once she said something about her history, I said, well, what happened to you? And she said, well, I was in Yellowstone, and I was attacked by this grizzly bear. and I was with a man, and this bear came, and he ran away, the man ran away, and the bear attacked me, and I remembered what I'd read, which is that they don't eat anything that's dead, so I curled up and laid completely still, and it was very hard, it took all of my concentration, because I could hear him eating,

[58:26]

my neck muscles. And she said, if I hadn't practiced Zazen, I couldn't have done it. And I guess in a little while, the man that she was with came back and made some noise with a pot and a spoon and, you know, the animal ran off. So there is no guarantee when we practice this practice that we won't meet with very terrible circumstances. But there is some hope that we've learned some ways to meet these circumstances. And I guess what I was pointing out in the various things about the way people practice Buddhism, because I read several things, or gave you several things to read. One was about this experience of the rape.

[59:28]

The other was from Thich Nhat Hanh about mindfulness being engaged. And the third thing was about the corporate exec, which you had some misgivings about, and the way he used Dogen. in his own life, to lead this company, and to take care of, he felt with great compassion, to take care of the consumers by giving them this best possible product. And I think the qualities that we can pick out from these stories are mindfulness, the quality of our attention, compassion, regard for others, and our concept of suffering and sharing it and accepting it. I don't know. Other thoughts about people who live without their practice and what it is they exactly do when they apply Buddhism in their life?

[60:32]

You were saying about Usalananda, how he goes around and participates. Yes. What do you notice about him? Well, perhaps there's an attachment here on my part, but just his presence. He's been away for five months. He was in Florida on a retreat, and then he went back to Bourbon to receive a title, and he'll be back in two weeks. But just his presence. And as I told somebody, he's just without defilement. So there's a quality of his presence, of his attention. Yes, that has given me, to me he is a Bodhisattva because what he's given me, just with his presence and the way he speaks and conducts the Vipassana meditations on Wednesdays. And I also had to call him in a crisis about a year ago.

[61:34]

And he was right there at the monastery and took my call. Unlike a therapist, pardon me, where you get a message, you know, he was right there and he talked to me until I was finished talking. It wasn't like I have to go, I'll call you back, or I don't have time. So that's completely giving. So there's the giving, the full compassion, as well as the quality of the mindfulness, which is something that's developed. So to me he has the wisdom and compassion balanced, which is really more Zen than it is. I don't know. I mean, I speak of those two as more... It's pretty Buddhist, yeah. Pretty much in keeping with what we talked about. I can't help but thinking about my own experience. I guess it was about a month ago when I had this accident with my horse, which we had a memorial service for the horse as a result of this accident. he got his leg tangled in something and he just panicked and pulled his foot off of his leg.

[62:42]

And we were three or four miles from our house where we were and there was a point where he was struggling and then there was a point where he, when I guess when he actually pulled the joint apart, when he went down It was a very powerful moment for me. I've never seen, thank God, never seen a horse do this, where he just laid down on the ground and began this rhythmic groaning. And there was nothing that I could do to take him out of his misery, although I sent my husband to get a gun to put him out of his misery. But I stayed with him, and there was nowhere to go. You know, I mean, I could have gone, you know, walked over in the bush somewhere but it was one of those experiences where you know it's going to go on for so long and you're going to have to live with it for the rest of your life so you better do it right. At least that's the way I felt about it.

[63:45]

So I sat there and stroked his head and listened to this groaning and then I thought well you know, maybe he'd like some water. So I got a little can of water and gave him some water. And I started to think, I wonder if this water is clean enough for him to drink. I said, well, what difference is it going to make at this point? You know, he's about to be shot. So if he drinks dirty water, it's not going to matter. And through the experience of being with this animal and knowing that I was going to kill him, because there was no way to fix them. I thought a lot about sitting through the pain and what it was like just to sit there and not be able to do anything and how different the experience would have been for me if I hadn't had that experience behind me of just sitting through this pain and being fully present with it

[64:47]

Although, I must say, it took its toll in terms of just the shock value of just being there with it. There's post-traumatic shock that goes with it. I don't know how long it was. It probably was only about 15 minutes until my husband came back and shot him. It took a little while for him to die, several shots. He knew, I mean, he had enough life left in him that he didn't want to die. And so he was not going to sit still for this. And he knew what our intention was by the time Peter drove back up with the truck. But it was very important to me that he die and die quickly rather than just keep going through this agony. So I had to stand there and Peter said, OK, OK, it's done. It's like it's done. And I said, no, it's not. He's still panting. you know, you have to go again. So it was a very shocking experience and kind of... I don't know if I'll ever be the same.

[65:54]

I mean, it's hard to say since it's only been a month. But it was a kind of experience where I could really relate, in a sense, to this rape experience because it kind of takes you to your core when you have that kind of raw life and death experience. And we have this capacity of fully experiencing. So it's very powerful. Very powerful. So I really noticed my ability to be present and also to feel this pain without sort of running away from it. I also noticed I went into shock because I had pulled my shoulder out a couple weeks before And I noticed somewhere, after all this had been completed, that I hadn't felt anything in my shoulder for the past hour, which I had been feeling pain for the past two weeks, so I knew I was gone somewhere, and somewhere had lost my body in this process.

[66:58]

But this is something that all of us will experience, not in this particular way. but a situation of great pain and anguish, you could pretty well guarantee it. And at that time, the use of your practice and the fact that it's there for you will be very significant. And I think there's even a question that could come up at this time, which is, what's the point? You know, when I read the way this woman has practiced with rape the way this man, this corporate exec, practices with Buddhism and even Thich Nhat Hanh. What's the point of practicing? Anybody have some idea what the point is?

[68:04]

I think it is sort of like the Third Wat, the idea of Perfection being an achievement. So your point is that just because I can ask the question what's the point doesn't mean there is a point. That's right. You have to quote Grace. Zazen is good for nothing, but what is nothing good for? I've heard some of your tapes. Now I can throw that back. Well, see, I think it's good for something. Why don't you explain that? Well, I wanted to hear your opinion about what, but I do have... That's good. I mean... Yeah. So, I... And anybody have any other ideas of what's the point, I mean, of going on or perfecting?

[69:08]

What's the point? Well, I mean, I would have thought if you allow the phrase some change in someone's being, that This can happen in a number of different ways, and in some sense into a regular practice. that had compassion and said, I'm going to ignore the Jews and I'm going to release Jesus even if you want Barabbas, I want... Well, that would be an interesting universe. I'm not sure it would be a disaster though. It would be a whole parallel universe if there were so much compassion. Well, I think my point here, and what's the point, is

[70:10]

that in a certain way it's so, that Buddhism, that there is no point, that Buddhism just says this is the way it is, there is this practice. There's impermanence, there's emptiness, there's suffering, these are all laws. We haven't gone in much into the law of karma, that's more advanced Buddhism and dependent origination, but there is that law of that things arise and are all interconnected. These are laws, just like laws of physics or laws of thermodynamics. These are just laws. There is no point. But there is a point when they say, when we get to the Four Noble Truths, as I said earlier, there's a point which is all life is suffering. There's this emptiness, there's an impermanence. Suffering is caused by craving. Again, this is a neutral law. But when you get to the laws that say, And there can be cessation of suffering through practice. That's the point. There's the point. The Buddhism does have, in a certain way, a point.

[71:12]

That there are some values here to eliminating or reducing or working with suffering. And that's the point. The point is we have given some value in Buddhism to this cessation of suffering. And we work towards it. You've got to really be careful not to use it. Like there's me, and there's the practice, and I'm going to use it to get better. I mean, it's tricky, huh? Yeah, it's very tricky. The egalitarian view of it gets you into this whole problem. What happens if you do that? What happens if you do that, Greg? Well, I think all the suffering. You're grasping after enlightenment or something. What about grasping after non-suffering? That's right. No, you'd be under your bed or in it.

[72:41]

Right. And I think that it's provides, you know, he was just saying it provides the energy to practice, and practice turns into only something of religious meaning. Well, I think what John was saying about purification, there's a purification of that original intention, and there's a clarification of a purer intention. I mean, it seems to me there is a sort of suffering that is caused by craving. But I don't quite see what, well, I mean, you mentioned it before, the suffering of Jesus on the cross. What was he craving that caused that suffering? Or if someone is dying from a painful cancer, What is it that they're craving that's causing that suffering?

[73:45]

I mean, it seems to me... There's just suffering sometimes. Yes, and it seems to me the sort of suffering that's relative to the craving isn't the whole. It's a very troublesome path for us, and it's very good, but it's a pity to be too extreme on that statement. Yeah, because I've heard one person talk about it as real suffering and false suffering, and I think that was Joe Quebec. There's suffering, which is life is impermanent and people die, and that's sad, no matter how old they are or what it's about. But then there's a kind of suffering that we create with our own attachments, and that's what we work on. And the last thing that I wanted to cover was again, well the reading that I gave you on the fire of attention, did anybody read that? And I think that speaks most directly to the way we can take our practice and if not use our practice, our practice manifests itself in our life.

[74:58]

by this complete attention, by the quality, you talked about the presence of the sulananda, but it's a quality of attention and consciousness that we only, it seems to me, that we don't strive to build it, but naturally blooms with our practice. And Joko Bek in this Fire of Attention talks about the kind of suffering that as you're talking about, that's related to craving, that has to do with an incomplete attention, you know, with an incomplete burning. And that was one thing I was aware of in my experience with this horse, was that there wasn't anything between me and the suffering, you know, my attention was fully on it. I mean, I might have been spaced out and that may have been where the accident came from, but boy, when it did happen, I was there. So there's something about attachment and incomplete attention, because of our attachments or our desire not to be there, that takes us into further suffering, that has it lingering with us.

[76:16]

And even though, for example, in this woman's story about the rapier in my story, about the horse, there's nothing we could do. about these circumstances, in a sense, once these things have been said, we can't bring that horse back and we can't stop this rape from going, but we can complete the experience in a way that burns it completely, and so that we go on to the next experience in some way without carrying it with us. Grace, excuse me, I just have one thing that sort of bothers me about, you said there's no way to keep this rape from going on. No, I said stop it from having happened. Having happened, yeah. That's what I meant. If she'd had martial arts training, that wouldn't have happened. Yeah, but she didn't. I mean, I just feel like... She didn't. Yeah. That's all I'm saying. She didn't, given those circumstances. Just as a woman, I had it. Yeah, no, I understand. It's a very controversial article. She didn't have it. So what I just mean, in those set of circumstances, the fact that she didn't have martial arts, and there was nobody there to help her, and there was nothing that she could do. anything, nothing positive could be said about it at all.

[77:59]

But I think that I have trouble separating it too because it seems like it's putting the Buddhist stamp of approval on submission. Perhaps this woman may even have had all that rage. putting one's ego, putting one's self.

[79:12]

She was fully attentive. She was fully present without anything else. It was like... Yeah, but also putting the fact that herself as an individual was being violated by this other person, this enemy, and so putting aside Not to not to allow rage to control not to allow one's own rage to control the situation Just because it's so graphic. You know it's so clear Yeah, there's nowhere to go well, but on the other hand there is Many women survive this experience and children certainly survive Rape and sexual abuse through dissociation, so there is another place way to go which is I'm not here right now I've left my body And I'm somewhere else. That's not the same thing.

[80:13]

That's sort of like the low road, and this is the high road. Well, I don't want to judge it because, you know, it's just not what we practice. Why couldn't you judge it in relation to the so-called being of that person afterwards? I'll just say it's not what we practice. You know, I'm not saying it's not a way. Because I don't know. It might be a way for somebody. Would this be her practice? For her to say, I'm mad as hell. This is never going to happen to me again. Could be. I'm going to beat the living daylights out of the next guy. Could be. Because I'm going to take a martial arts course. I mean, anger can be a motivating factor that can get us prevent. Yeah, but that is still hanging on to self and other. In other words, that's not a Buddhist approach. That's not a Buddhist approach. It may be a strong approach. I don't know that it's not a Buddhist approach. I would say that for her to have that reaction is certainly permissible, but it's also a problem because if she thinks that by studying martial arts she's going to avoid ever being violated again, think again.

[81:26]

I didn't mean it quite that way. No, I know. But I mean anger can be a motivating force. Yeah. And so it's okay to be angry if we see anger, but we can also use it as a tool. I just wanted to get more of a clarification on something you said earlier about burning something completely. So to distract from the rape issue, one of the things in the reading was, she says, not to be caught and dragged around by circumstance. And then you spoke about your horse and burning it completely. And is that done only through practice? No, I don't think so. I think that it's an outcome or it's a manifestation of our practice. And it seems to be one of those laws of Buddhism that to do something completely is desirable or part of not continuing suffering, to be fully present.

[82:28]

And Suzuki Roshi talks about it and burning no trace, leaving no trace, burning completely. I just tried to get an idea of how... I tend to be a very practical person. And as such I get dragged around quite a bit by circumstance. So... I just tried to get an idea of... How would you use this? Yeah, I don't want to say what to do. I'll give you an example of it. I was with Maile Scott one morning and we were sitting in a car. It was early and there was a woman on the street who was, to me, I'm diagnosing her as schizophrenic, you know, an ambulatory schizophrenic, a street person who was carrying on her conversation and raging up and down the street. And at one point she came over to the car and Maile looked at her, and she started to, as if she was going to bang on the window, and Maile rolled down the window and put her face over towards her.

[83:37]

And she walked away. And I said, well, that was really interesting. And she said, yeah, I found that if my instinct is to move away from, that if I move towards, it seems to be the right thing to do. So maybe there's some way of, when one gets stuck in some way, to just sort of, you know, move right into that and sit there for a minute. And rather than try to pull out and run around and fix it, you know, to just sit with it for a minute, to move towards it. Unless you're being bugged. Well, I don't know. In that circumstances, whether moving towards, you know, I mean, our tendency might be to pull back. I'd like to talk about an experience I had. I was standing in front of my house in my own driveway.

[84:40]

I had just gotten out of my car and I was like all of a sudden two guys came from both sides and one of them pulled a gun out and They told me to lie down on a pavement. What they had on their mind was robbery. Now, when they did that, you know, they had the option... I mean, when I lay down on a pavement, I had the option of laying down, you know, face down or face up.

[85:48]

I didn't want to give them anything to grab onto in order to justify shooting me. So they eventually finished what they were doing with this car and stuff. And then after that, they just told me to run, and I did. I don't want to go this way.

[87:14]

Yeah, and so I was thinking that the best that I what I was thinking about the whole time was surviving it and For me, there was a bitterness, you know, and an anger and a feeling of violation. Oh, she had all that. You know, there was a feeling of violation, which I couldn't shake.

[88:15]

And later on, you know, and it's like a year later, pulled down his pants and peed against the side of the apartment building that I lived in. And I was standing right there. And what came up for me in that is hatred and a feeling of violation and a feeling of that

[89:25]

It was still self and other, you know, self. She had just finished Sashin and you probably hadn't. Well, I just got back from Basra. No, I mean at that time. But, yeah, and the whole of pain, the rage, absolute rage, flaming rage, you know, and hatred and desire to kill, you know. So this stayed with you a while. Yeah. So your point is about answering this. My point is about burning. Yeah. Well, I think one of the things, you might not have been terrified enough, you know.

[91:03]

I mean, I think one of the things about this article was that, for me, that struck me, maybe it was because of my own recent experience, that if the experience of suffering is powerful enough, it obliterates everything. And you don't have any choices about thinking self and other, It transcends, it transforms your consciousness in that moment. It's so powerful. I mean, what is the next? What do I do with my next breath? Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the consciousness, I think, that comes up at these times and that we can call up at other times maybe in our life, which is just to stop and to be fully attentive rather than to react in a habitual way.

[92:14]

It seems a lot of suffering is more the You know, and we have these incidences of horses dying or robberies or rape and that sort of thing. Yeah, people flipping you off when you're driving and stuff like that. Yeah, I mean, yeah. That or, you know, staying in bad situations or, you know, thinking like in jobs or not having jobs or, that's what I mean by low-grade suffering. years and years. So, you're saying what's our answer to that? Well, it's real obvious with a rape or a robbery. You know, I've been in very intense situations and you are, you're there, that's it. But... What do you do every day?

[93:16]

What do you do with the everyday type, as I call it right now, low-grade suffering? Well, let's hear from everybody. I mean, it would be a way to complete the class, since we're just about at that time, but somebody's deeper. What do you do to get through your everyday suffering? Low-grade, everyday suffering. What do you do? And rather than label it as this or that, just to... Or significance of levels of meaning, of value. Anybody else? What do you do with your suffering on an everyday basis? What comes to mind if I do the best I can?

[94:43]

I don't think it's too different from what you do in extreme situations, extreme suffering. For me it's the same sort of approach, just what's the immediate next thing to do? What about you, Tom? Well, I tend to be a very practical person. So I am thinking of the context of it. And I think that the situation is not all that there is. And so I try and defog it. See it as it is. See it in the context. I look at the context. rather than the situation itself. I try not to, I don't think it's an escape, it's just a practical measure of defusing the bomb. Like if you focus on the gun, you're very likely to get shot.

[95:47]

Do you think about what the cement feels like under your body? Yeah. You might, you know, sort of blend with it a little better. Yeah, right. Yeah, what about you? I do different things in different circumstances. It's hard to say what I do. But when I don't do anything about it, that's when the suffering seems to go on and on and on. When you try to ignore it, it's like it's not there. What about you, Beresford? What do you do? Well, I don't know. I mean, it seems to me the only thing that can change in life

[96:25]

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