Do you have any questions about Zazen? I've been thinking about Shikantaza. Somebody told me that they went to L.A. event center and they were asked, well, are you studying Kowans or are you studying Shikantaza? And that kind of put it in a different way for me a little. And when I think of it, I think of what you've been talking about, merging and following and leading and following at the same time. And I've been trying to be aware of it outside of the zenbo as well as in, and what is Shikantasana when you're not sitting.

[01:10]

And it seems to me that it has something to do with your sense of background being stronger and things coming out of the background. And what's very interesting to me is how that happens. You can't exactly try to do that directly. I mean, try to have that happen directly, but how it happens indirectly. What is it? the sense of um maybe maybe i've gotten away from she can't pass but the the sense of things coming out of background rather than things just being things in themselves i don't belong but maybe maybe that's enough you know there's a lot of things there Just one more thing that's a little connected.

[02:12]

I've been doing some biofeedback with people, adults and children, helping them, teaching them how to make their hands warmer, because that helps you relax. And adults, children are much better at it than adults, because when adults try to do it, they try, and that defeats them. And children just have some natural way of telling their hands to warm up when their hands warm up. So that's part of it, too. Yeah. Adults kind of lost their ability to get out of the way. Another question? It's the question inside of her question. What's Shikantaza? Shikantaza. Well, we talk about Shikantaza from time to time. Shikantaza is what we call our... Zazen mind, our mind in Zazen, you see.

[03:18]

There are different ways people look at it, you know, shikantaza. I think I have to talk about the whole thing to kind of get back to your question, because your question brings up so many things, you know, Los Angeles and Kowloons. We have to start from some place. that Kanna Zen is Koan Zen and some other names she's she's Soji Zen is what people call Soto style Zen which is sometimes called silent illumination. And there's always been a big controversy, you know, between the Koan Zen people and the silent illumination people, you know, ever since the Sun dynasty in China.

[04:38]

If you go to the Los Angeles Zen Center, they have koan study, and they also have what they call shikantaza practice. And their tradition is soto and rinzai kind of mixed. Although when we sit zazen, what we do is shikantaza, we don't call it shikantaza practice. We don't, it's not, for us it's not a special practice. Sometimes we say just sitting. Just sitting is our practice. And people say, well, that's Shikantaza. And so, yes, Shikantaza is just sitting.

[05:50]

But it's not a way of naming our just sitting. In other words, it's not a term for our just sitting. Shikantaza is our practice. in a very broad sense. It's not something you practice. It's not... You don't practice Shikantaza. Shikantaza is what you do when you're practicing. So we practice simply sitting. which is different than koan study, and yet it's exactly the same. Koan study and simply sitting are the same. But on the one hand you have koan study, on the other hand you have simply sitting.

[06:58]

And what koan study does is focuses you on simply sitting. The purpose of koan study is to bring you to simply sitting. So, if you go to Los Angeles, they'll say, of course, shikantaza is the highest practice. That's the culmination of all practice, is shikantaza, simply sitting. But we practice koan in order to break through, you know, to simply sitting. And in sottosek, we just start out with simply sitting. And that's our koan. So it's really the same. But we approach it from a different way, a different side. So we don't make a distinction so much between koan study and simply sitting.

[08:07]

Shikantaza You don't make that kind of distinction. Although you can make it, and people do make it, it's okay. For us, we study koans in a certain way, but the koan that we put emphasis on is the koan of what is this, or simply sitting, just sitting. It's like koan, just doing something. What is just doing something? How do you just do something? That's a big question, and it's what we're practicing. So it's not that some people say, well, in Soto Zen you don't have a koan. They don't practice koan study. But that's not true. Just sitting is our koan to penetrate.

[09:09]

How do you just sit? Not only in sitting, but how do you just sit in whatever you're doing? So just sitting, quote, is a bigger question than just in cross-legged activity. Just sitting means you take just sitting and... put it into all of your activities. And that's Shikantaza, practice of Shikantaza is to be one with activity. That's why we're talking about, yesterday I was talking about form. The importance of form is when you have, when you pay attention to form, carefully, then you have the ability or possibility to become one with the form or one with the activity.

[10:22]

To have a relationship with something and yet to go beyond the relationship to go beyond the relationship. If you have a relationship, you have a subject and an object. Or you can have two subjects, two objects. If it's two people, you have two subjects and two objects. You have myself and the object who is Connie. But for Connie, Connie's the subject and Mel's the object. But to transcend the subject-object, which still exists, Mel is Connie and Connie is Mel. If we don't understand Connie is Mel and Mel is Connie, then

[11:30]

we're not one with the situation, with the form. We don't understand the form. If we have a form, which is a framework to operate in, then we just conform. We just take the shape of the form. And when we're completely one with the form, And even though we each keep our separate identity, we merge as one identity. So there's oneness and there's duality. If there's a gap, then we just fall into duality. So mostly we're just operating in the realm of duality.

[12:32]

But if there's oneness, even though we each keep our identity, we realize our common root. And the subject-object duality disappears. So the point of all of our activity is to go beyond the duality of the subject and the object. In zazen, the easiest way to do it is to sit zazen. In zazen, we cross that barrier. of the subject and the object, and we merge with the form, body and mind totally absorbed in one-pointed activity.

[13:39]

And that merging is called samadhi. It means something like existing in the reality. merged with the reality. The reality is the oneness of a duality, the oneness of the two sides. These two are really not separate. They're separate, independent, yet not two things. So the important thing when we sit zazen is that our body and mind are not two different things. So what do we think about in zazen? We think, as Dogen says, we think non-thinking.

[14:43]

We think non-thinking. How do you think non-thinking? Non-thinking. Well, how do you think now? That's the koan. That's the koan of zazen. How do you think now in thinking? Thought, it becomes the activity. There's no thought outside of the activity. Thought and activity are exactly the same thing. Body and mind are one piece. And even though we say, well, there's a mind and there's a body, and they exist independently, body and mind are one piece. And if we say my body and my mind, that's creating another duality. So we say my for convenience, but we have to get rid of my, I and mind, and just say body and mind, body-mind.

[15:44]

We don't say body and mind even. We say body hyphen mind. Body mind. Being time. We don't say being and time. We say being time. For the time being. So shikantaza is activity in the realm of non-duality. Where duality doesn't exist, Buddha appears. That's what we said in the echo yesterday for Buddha's power in Iran. I don't know if you remember that. When duality does not exist, Buddha appears.

[16:46]

So what we call Buddha is the oneness of duality, the oneness underlying duality. And when you say things appear from a background, We have to be careful when we talk about things and background. I've talked about the screen and the movie on the screen. That's kind of like a background and things appearing on it. But that can also be a little misleading when you say things come out of a background. You can say oneness is the background and duality is the appearance on the screen of oneness. But we have to be careful of that image because it looks like there's a oneness and things come out of it, like emptiness and form. Our mind always wants to divide emptiness from form because of our dualistic tendency to the way we think.

[17:59]

We can't help thinking dualistically. We're really in it. When we start thinking about form and emptiness and things coming out of a background, we start dividing form from emptiness. And we have to be very careful here. Things come out of a background, but the background isn't in the back and things in the forward, in the forefront. That's our optical way of perceiving that there's a foreground and a background. But if we think of it as things emerge from a background, but the background isn't in the back. I guess what more I was thinking, this is all right, that everything really is related, but you don't see it so easily.

[19:01]

I guess that's more what I meant. Yeah, everything is related, but we don't see it. That's right, because we see relatedness between things. We see how things are related in some way, but we don't see how everything is related to everything else. That's difficult to see. And how everything is interdependently related, we can't see so easily. That's why When we practice, we always practice within a limited field. If you try to look at the whole universe, you know, it's too much, too confusing. So we always look, you know, even scientists always look in a limited way. If you look through a microscope, that's limiting reality so you can study it, you know.

[20:08]

And if you're a mathematician, you reduce everything to numbers, a few numbers. and that way you can study it. And in Zazen we, in the same way, we reduce everything to this narrow place where we can study it. And we can see how the subject and object relationship, how the duality of subject and object keeps us in a very limited state. And we can see it in our own body and mind.

[21:10]

When body and mind are not completely at one with everything, when there's the slightest gap, then there's subject and object. So when there's no gap, then everything is subject. in the sense that, this is getting a little philosophical, but in the sense that everything is myself. So everything is subjective. The whole, whatever it is that I perceive is subjective. This is actually the goal of Buddhist practice, is to see everything as subject, which means that objects still exist as objects.

[22:27]

Subjects still exist as objects, but they don't only exist as objects. So you can see something objectively. You know, if we say everything is Subjective, part of my subjectiveness. That can easily mean projection, but I don't mean it in the sense of projecting. Not in the sense of projecting. For me, it also seems to be a mixture of the merging and the non-merging. For a while, you're sort of merged, and then you come out of it, and you're aware that you're out of it, and your effort picks up, and then you go back into merging. I don't really remember the times that I merged, but I can notice when I'm coming out of it in some sense, and then try again. It seems to go back and forth. It's kind of a... Okay, let me, I want to talk a little bit about our mind in zazen and what we should be looking for.

[23:33]

When we sit, we pay close attention to our posture and count our breath. And ideally, our attention should be just merged with the posture and the breathing. If that's so, then there's, ideally, nothing would get in between the posture and the breath and the thinking or the attention. But in that combination, all kinds of things are coming in, you know, to separate the combination. Okay, now, which means that there are stray thoughts which are always coming up into consciousness.

[24:51]

And there are various problems which are making it difficult to continue, which means like the pain in your legs or your back and various distractions. And, you know, if you try to count your breath, You lose count at five or two or, you know. One. One. Something like that. So, you know, what we want is this tightly knit thing, but what we have is something very kind of dwarf, you know, or kind of monster's animal here. It's going all over the place. It's not really tight like we want it to be, like our ideal says it should be. But as we sit, as the process goes on and on of sitting zazen, we find that even though all these things are going on, in order for us to continue,

[26:06]

We have to let these things come in, in the cracks. The thoughts come in the cracks or they face us and our consciousness starts to get carried away with something else. And pain comes into our legs and then we start to dwell on the pain in our legs. And we start to worry about something or we get discouraged or bored or something. And all these things are giving us, impeding our progress, our ideal existence in that state. But at the same time, we're still sitting zazen. Something is still sitting. So there's a posture, and there's a breathing, and there's an effort and a concentration, even though there are all these hindrances.

[27:16]

And if you try to get rid of the hindrances, they just, if you chop off the head of this snake, it just grows five other heads. Whenever you try to chop it off, chop off the hindrances, they just grow more. It's like blackberries, you know. You cut them all down and they come out twice as strong. So you know you can't cut them off. Even though you try to cut them off, you can't cut them off. If you say that they're bad, then you put yourself into the kind of dualistic judgment that you don't want to have. when you're sitting. If you say they're good, you put yourself on the other side of the dualistic judgment that you don't want to have. So you can't say they're bad and you can't say they're good. And you don't want them to be there, and yet they're there. So this is the core of think not thinking.

[28:20]

How do you deal with all that and still maintain complete subjectivity? so that all those hindrances are no longer hindrances. When hindrances are no longer hindrances, then you've, that's called shikantaza. When the problems in your life are no longer hindrances to your practice, it's called enlightenment. Doesn't mean you can't get rid of all those problems in your life. But when they're no longer hindrances, when, as Suzuki Yoshi said, he had that in his newsletter recently, when the problems in your life are no longer hindrances, then you can live pretty comfortably.

[29:28]

Rather than talking about body and mind, I'd like to put it in the context of the observer and the experience. I've had a lot of instances like that recently. It was like when you're aware that you're having an experience or something happens to you, particularly physical, a thing, it isn't physical because your mind is experiencing it, but you have the, it comes up, okay, this is happening to me. It could be a very strong experience, some tremendous pain or tremendous emotion, but you're saying, oh, this is happening. So when you merged with this, where is the observer? That's a good question. Where is the observer? I want you to tell me. Where is the observer right now? I don't know. Show me your observer. I'll pass it by your mind.

[30:38]

You'll pass it where? Pass it on. Pass it by your mind. Pass it around the room. There are different ways of observing. You know, when you're completely doing something, wholly and completely, there's no observer. But when you want to see what's happening, then you step back a little bit and there's an observer in it. And then if you want to observe what the observer is observing, then you step back again. And you can keep doing this. And each time you do... Each time you do, you get further away from the event. I'm thinking of some experiences recently where I didn't intend. I had a very powerful emotional experience and an experience totally separate of observing. It's just completely different. And I always find that extremely disturbing. I don't know what that is.

[31:41]

I don't know which of us should go. Separated. The observer is separated from the feeling. Completely. Wild feeling, but just totally separated from it. Well, that can be good or not good, depending on the situation. Some people can be separated from their feelings, and so they don't know what they're feeling or don't know how to act. It's not that kind of thing. Right. And there's another way is when you say anger comes up. And instead of just giving vent to anger, you say, this is anger. And then it's like counting to ten. When you count to ten before you do something, it's like putting distance between the feeling and your intentions. And that's practice. before leaping into something, you look at the feeling.

[32:44]

This is vipassana practice. When the feeling comes up, you look at the feeling instead of immediately acting upon it. In Zen, we more act on things, but not react. But we respond quickly so that there's no time to think, but just to take away the subject and the object. When the subject and the object are not two distinct things, then the action is immediate, and it's the right action. But that's always appreciated in our Zen practice, to just immediately do the right thing. No analysis. Just like that. Flash of lightning. You do the right thing. You understand immediately. But the other side of that is to look at the thoughts and the feelings that you have.

[33:54]

And not to just blindly be taken over by them. So if you're working in a hospital and you watch somebody being cut open, you can't have very much feeling. You can't let that bother you. You have to have some distance, some objectivity. Otherwise you can't even work. You go throw up or something. You can't do that. You have to have objectivity to be able to deal with that kind of situation. So it's complicated. There are different situations. And it depends on what we're talking about when we talk about it. Sometimes we appreciate no second thoughts.

[34:55]

And sometimes we appreciate second thoughts and distance and objectivity and looking at something. And sometimes we appreciate analyzing all that, even though it gives us more distance. It's all necessary. All three is necessary. It's necessary to just be able to respond immediately without thinking. It's necessary to have some distance in order to know what to do, or even to detach yourself from your feelings. And it's necessary to analyze all that, and it's necessary to know when to do each. It's necessary to know what's appropriate for each situation. I can't say that what you did is right or wrong. In the situation, maybe it was right or maybe it wasn't right.

[36:02]

But it all depends on the situation. The situation has everything to do with it. Right now, we're talking about it in the third category. We're in the third category. When we're sitting in zazen, we're in the first category. Just something is happening and we're not analyzing it. In zazen, we're not analyzing. If you're analyzing what's happening, then you're not sitting zazen. When you're sitting zazen, you're not analyzing, you're not thinking about what's happening. Something comes, you just open up to it and accept it. Pain in your legs? If you don't open up to the pain in your legs, then you have something that wants to go someplace and you're not letting it go there. And when you're not letting it go there, it's going to break you down. It has the whole universe behind it. It has all the power in the whole universe behind it, painting your legs.

[37:04]

If you want to find the source of it, you can look forever. But if you give it some space, it will accompany you. If you objectify it, if you make pain an object, then it will become your enemy. But if pain is you, if you become one with pain, if you don't make it an object, if you don't make yourself an object, then the whole universe will find space inside of you. And then there's no inside of you and no outside of you. No inside, no outside. So this what is it is not an analysis, it's... Yeah, what is it is not an analysis.

[38:12]

It sounds like an analysis. So what is it brings you to the point where you can no longer analyze. That's a koan. That's what the koan is about. It brings you to the point where you stop analyzing and just be it. So the answer to all koans is how to just be it. Koan is not some special thing. It's how to bring all that together so that you just bring it all together. Somehow when we were talking to Emily, we were saying things about sometimes it's appreciated and sometimes it's not appreciated.

[39:31]

I got this idea of this word that's commonly used, common sense. I was wondering what you think about that. Common sense has different meanings depending on which side it's on. Common sense in Zen is maybe uncommon sense in usual society. And common sense in usual society is maybe uncommon sense in Zen or something. So it depends on where it's coming from. Common sense, we like the idea of common sense. So to me, common sense means basic sense. It means that to everybody. Basic sense, but for who? There's redneck common sense, and there's, you know, mathematician's common sense, Buddhist common sense, scientific common sense, I don't know.

[40:40]

Duke Meacham common sense. Duke Meacham common sense. Jerry Brown common sense. It has a kind of common denominator sense, but... So, you know, Suzuki Roshi is always talking about acceptance. Accept what's happening. And people think, well, does that mean I can't change? If I accept, it means I can't change. It doesn't mean that. It means you have to make space for everything. If you oppose things too much, they'll break you.

[41:48]

That's what war is about. We destroy one side. It looks like one side destroys the other side, but actually we destroy ourself through confrontation. The two sides are really one thing. Otherwise it wouldn't be sides. The thing that has no side, no sides, is the one thing. But two sides. Two sides have to be two sides of something. So in a way, when we talk about nonviolence, And reconciliation, words like that, they point very much to what we're doing.

[43:07]

Do we have time for one more question? Did I answer all your questions? Did we discuss them? Maybe we got off the track. Is there some part? Let's leave it at that. Satsang with Mooji

[44:12]

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