And she came here to Berkeley Sun Center in the mid-1990s with her teacher, Maile Scott. And Maile Scott gave her lay ordination. And since then, she has held probably every position possible at UTC over the years. In 2005, Sojin Roshi gave her priest ordination. Thank you very much, Karen. It's really great to be home. And thank you for coming on this beautiful spring day.

[01:22]

Who says winter doesn't turn into spring? I know. So, and marvelous to see so many people who I don't recognize and a number of old friends, too. So as I was helping this talk take some form, I realized that sometimes the topic of karma or cause and effect can sound very heavy. So what I thought is we tend to associate it with judgment sometimes, judgment about our actions like if you do bad, bad is going to come to you. So I think about the content of this talk as beyond cause and effect or freeing from cause and effect within cause and effect. So just to give you that frame of ease and space to listen with.

[02:23]

Like most of the things I talk about, they're very alive in my life and there have been two streams of thinking that's been active for me over the last several months. In fact, as I was driving down here, the subject of this talk was given to me. One aspect of this talk, thinking about the friends who have died or who are ill, the people that I take care of, almost all of whom have chronic and serious illnesses, is what is it that we leave behind? Most people think about that in terms of their personal effects or the things that they've bought are going to leave their children. But I think about it in terms of what we leave behind in a more lasting way out of our activities.

[03:27]

So, what do we leave behind in the context of this event? Last May, I was driving down from the Pacific Northwest with my dog in my car and a few of my things. And I stopped on the way from Eugene. to Shasta Abbey, which is up near Mount Shasta, and stayed with a good friend who's a nun there for a couple of nights. While I was there, I had a chance to meet one of the other priests who had rescued a German shepherd, a very emaciated German shepherd dog on the freeway, and she was doing this really heroic task of trying to take care of this dog. She's about my size and the dog weighed about 100 pounds and was very reactive. So I had a lot of empathy for her and a lot of admiration. Shasta Abbey has a long history of caring for animals and I understand when they first started that they had up to 20 running the grounds of the temple.

[04:39]

So I'm driving along after having left Shafta Abbey, and I'm coming down into the valley in California, and I'm feeling really good about being home and a little bit uncertain about what my life is going to be when I get here. And somewhere between Red Bluff and Redding, I notice a dog running alongside of the freeway. Now, I'm on, I think, a Tuesday. There's tons of traffic. The semis are going by. I'm driving 70 in my little SUV, and everyone else is going at least that, if not higher. My car is kind of weaving a little bit from the backdraft of the cars as they go by. It's really very fast and very frightening. And I see this dog, and immediately I think, It's a medium-sized dog. Reminds me a little bit of my old dog, Ananda, who's been the subject of many a talk here.

[05:44]

And I immediately think about the well-being of this dog, who looks very frightened. And I decide something has to be done. I have a fair bit of experience with dogs and rescue dogs, so I decide I'm going to pull over to the side of the road on this fast-moving freeway. I pull over off to the narrow shoulder, move my car off. I have tons of treats in the car. I have extra leashes. I have all kinds of things to lure the dog off the freeway so that I can take it to the next exit and find the nearest animal shelter, right? Sound good? So dog's about a football field away. Running, running, running, running. And I'm moving as close to the edge of the freeway as I can get, hoping that that will encourage the dog to move out into the field that's on the opposite side.

[06:48]

It's three lanes. I think it's three lanes there. Some people may know. The big concrete divider. And the dog's running, running, running. The traffic is going fast. And about 30 yards away, it notices me. Uh-oh. The dog decides to cut across the four-way towards the middle divide. You can imagine by some miracle, a young woman who's driving a little red car, kind of like my old Chevy Vega back in the 70s, driving this little kind of tin can in the car, somehow has the ability to quick turn her car off to the shoulder, cutting across a wider tour of traffic, just avoiding the dog.

[07:51]

who makes it to the middle point. She cuts in front of a semi that's coming head on. He has the wherewithal to turn his, that skill to turn his truck. And it starts to do one of those skids, you know, that semis will do where it goes. The better on the, on the, on the, of the brakes on the tire. And you hear this high pitched screen and the truck is, the semi is starting to move at a 45, 50 degree angle and it's headed right towards my car. And I'm thinking, well, Andrew, you deserve this. And I'm thinking, how am I going to get my dog out of the car? Too late for that. And miraculously, the semi-driver is able to right his car, stop this kid, resume his line of traffic without hitting anyone.

[08:55]

Everyone somehow was able to avoid the accident. The young woman had pulled over, so had someone else who had popped out of his car and started running the opposite direction because that's where the dog went, trying to catch it. She took, the woman took a few moments, a few minutes to compose herself, kind of get a sense that everything was okay before she drove on. So you can imagine that I've been thinking about this event for the last nine months of the catastrophe that almost happened because of a seemingly good-hearted idea of trying to rescue a dog. Tsukiyoshi says, when we think we have small problems, we can handle them. But when we have big problems, they really get our attention.

[09:59]

So, small problems, small problems, the small problems of the dog and what I think I can do and who I think I am in that milieu. The helping hand strikes again, so to speak, meaning to be helpful, be unexamined, can create chaos. Interestingly this week, I don't know if any of you listen to Hidden Brain, it's a wonderful podcast on kind of neuropsychology and cognitive behavioral stuff and this one was exactly on this theme. I think he was talking about how when we make small deviations from what we think is normal, or maybe we don't even notice them as being such a small deviation. They're very easy. And before we know it, we're way on down the line having created a big problem.

[11:02]

And he gives the example of, it's actually a true story, of a cyclist who was a competitive cyclist who was really, really good at the top of his game, but he couldn't quite compete with the others on his team or in his league and so he heard about this medication that he could take and he went to his doctor who was a legitimate doctor and gave him a prescription for EPO. the performance enhancing drug and he took the EPO because it was what everyone else was doing and it seemed to be helpful and lo and behold his times got much faster and he got much more able to be a competitive cyclist and got kind of moved on up to another team and his teammates were seeing how well he was doing and he told them all about the EPO. And before you knew it, Ipo got very expensive and so he found a way to get it from Mexico or some other place.

[12:09]

He was dealing drugs. He was dealing illegal drugs, having just started out by wanting to do a better job as a cyclist at getting a legitimate prescription from his doctor. Where does that go awry? Where does that get a little bit off? Where did I go a little bit off as I was driving down the road, watching that dog run along? You know, as I've thought about this topic over and over again over these last months, Because that was all lucky. It was all lucky that something catastrophic didn't happen. I thought about all the ways in which I have emotional attachment to dogs. I thought about the dog that I grew up with and what an important figure she was to me. I thought about the dog I took care of in her ancient old age when she turned 20 and what a bonding, heroic experience that was.

[13:16]

I thought about the rescue dogs that I took care of in the shelter here in Brooklyn, the ones that I couldn't save and the ones that I fought to get out. And then I thought about the last rescue dog I had who died in my arms as he... herniated from a brain tumor, you know, all very heroic kind of dramatic things and all of them were running down the side of that road. And if I'm really honest, when I think about what came up for me as I was watching that dog run down along the side of the road was the desire to do something heroic, the desire to save this dog like all those other dogs. And I can say that for the benefit of enough years of practice, that thought did flicker into my mind. It did flicker into my mind, but I didn't resist it. I didn't resist it. I went ahead with what I hoped and what I wanted to be true, which was that I could make a difference in this dog's life.

[14:22]

So... those small slips, you know, being able to recognize, being able to... I'd say pay attention and not fall asleep. Pay attention to what's happening and turn towards it when it's uncomfortable. You know, that one small step away from paying attention means that you can go quite a bit further on. Well, the Buddha in one of his conversations with his son Raula when he was a young monk says, anyone who is willing to deceive themselves just a little bit, just a little bit would be willing to tell the hugest lie. This was an example of that, a kind of wake-up example. Am I awake and alert enough to say for myself, I have no excuse, I saw it.

[15:30]

Most people wouldn't have, I think. The Tibetans say that the mind is like an unruly small child, one that needs boundaries and reminders and constant redirection. It's a very humbling way to remind oneself that even if you've been, you have years of experience and practice and a committed life of wanting to wake up, that your mind is always wanting to do something else. And the other way of looking at it is the way in which our self constitutes itself in any situation. So, I've given you kind of a thumbnail of how seeing that dog triggered a whole series of thoughts and events of wanting to become someone special in this circumstance. Katagiri Roshi says that karma's first manifestation, karma's, that is, our volitional action, that action that arises out of our, out of the causes and conditions of our life, that first manifestation is a friction.

[16:51]

I really like that description. It's a friction, it's like something that's out of place, something that's a little bit It kind of throws you a little bit off balance. It might be it's often not so pleasant, something you wish were different. Sometimes it's something that you want, that you're grasping onto for pleasurable reasons, but it's a friction of some kind. That friction or irritation is something of an out-of-placeness. It could be the pain or pleasure of wanting something, of something that's fleeting, or recognizing and resisting changeability. It creates a feeling, think for yourself, of your own experience. It creates a feeling of pleasant or unpleasant, and then a craving or a desire to have or to push away.

[17:51]

And from that holding on, it takes the situation as me and mine. Me and mine, this is my heroic activity that I'm about to do here. Something that I have to do something about. And it is the constellation of our becoming who we are in that one given moment. Some of you will recognize the echoes of the twelvefold. wheel of dependent co-arising. It's basically this friction manifesting our something being what we want or not want and growing after it, becoming separate from the entire event, separate from everything that was happening. Me is the center becoming. This is the wheel of birth and death of our self on any given moment. So that's also very helpful for me.

[18:53]

I find in practice that if I can feel, if I can recognize that friction, that sense of dis-ease in my body, that tightness or constriction, that something's got my attention, like I did, as the dog was running down the side of the road, I had the emotion of the dog and all of my dog's stories in my case, but I also had an awareness of, well, this is me wanting something in this event. So, it's easy to say that really clearly in retrospect, it went by really fast, which is no excuse, but it's to say this is available to us, this kind of understanding of how we act in the world and what motivates us is available to us. Indeed, what we leave behind, if you will, or how we manifest in the world, the activity that we bring to the world is a combination of the basics that are kind of the givens.

[20:01]

Who we are as people, what we look like physically, our physical capacities, our psychological orientations and our life energy. The other part is the causes and conditions in our life, so the causes and what happens as a result of that, the things that come together and how we respond to them. There are also the conditions of our lives, the cultural, societal, situational conditions of our lives and the long-term fruits. of that, the long-term manifestations of our life through that. what we're talking about when we say what we leave behind. In the Lotus Sutra, this is chapter two of skillful means and the ten suchnesses. Our ten suchnesses, each of us is a combination of these kind of immutable, they're given to us, and then these possibilities where we can apply our free will, where we can apply our volitional intention.

[21:15]

if you will, from a Mahayana standpoint where we can apply our vow, what's most important to us about how we live our life and we manifest. The tenth suchness is something called the whole dynamic working of your individual life, your individual function, how all of these things come together. It's actually quite wonderful to know that this life is a part of all of these other things in process and that the effort and intentionality that I bring, that each of us brings to our life allows it to manifest fully. that nothing bad happened in this accident. Some people got scared. I don't know what happened to the dog. I called animal control and I called the California Highway Patrol to let them know about the dog, but I don't know what happened to the dog.

[22:23]

I called my dog friends at Shasta Abbey and they never heard. So hopefully it was nothing catastrophic, or they might have. So you might say, well, maybe this isn't all so bad. In Buddha's time, before Buddha's time, there was a great debate about what mattered the most. Was it the quality of the mind and the intention of the mind, or was it actually our action? Well, the impact of the action is not unimportant, but in some ways it's unknowable and not entirely within our control. But what we do have some, some significant say over is the quality of the mind that leads to the action. And it's the cultivation of that quality of mind that's what's most important. When Rahula and the Buddha were talking, the Buddha asked his son, you know, what's the purpose of a mirror?

[23:31]

And he says, well, it's to see my reflection, it's to see the reflection of what's happening. And the Buddha says, that's right. Before we make any action of the body, we should reflect deeply on our activity. Before we make any action of speech, before we speak, we should reflect deeply on our speech. And before we... Before we act in the mind, or as we act in the mind, we should reflect deeply on what that activity is. Of course, this is a lifelong event. We never hit bottom there. The impact of all the different factors involved with how we think are so multifold, we'll never see through to the bottom. So there's a certain deep, there's a certain humility in knowing I'm never going to understand everything that goes on and how I act.

[24:40]

And it's a motivation to go, to continue to turn towards, to continue to have a question, to continue to question what I think is happening and what's the right activity. Especially when I feel that little resistance, that little reluctance in my body, that little tightness, that little, uh, do you know that feeling? Yeah? Yeah, and how hard it is sometimes to let go of that. Those of us who have a little bit more of a reactive mind have a lot of opportunity to get to know it a little bit, and you know, big problem, big We all have to have our problems to work with. Also from Buddhist teachings, there's a teaching that says, beings are the owners of their own karma.

[25:43]

Heirs of their own karma, they have karma as their progenitors, karma as their kin, karma as their homing place. It is karma that is the differential to beings being inferior or superior. What I like so much about this, beings are the owners of their own karma. It reminded me of a time in my life many, many years ago where I had a very, very difficult decision to make. And I had been doing metta practice, loving kindness practice for some period of time before that, and the metta practice was very helpful. But faced with this moral choice which was monumental in my life at that point in time, I found that the practice of equanimity was really, really helpful. And the equanimity phrases are, I am the owner of my own karma.

[26:45]

My actions and intentions, conscious or unconscious, are mine. I'm responsible for them. I found that incredibly grounding. And I say, well, this is it, this is what's real. This is my responsibility, this is what I can do. Not judging a person good or bad, but just saying, this is it in front of you. And in accepting that, there's a great deal of clarity and a great deal of stability because it comes back to what I'm willing to do. A great deal of stability. Karma is really about cultivating choice. It's the internal action by being capable of making moral choices. When we're living a religious life, a life whose conscious intention is to cultivate good, that's what it means to wake up.

[27:49]

So waking up means seeing the dog running down the side of the highway in the context of all that was happening, not as a part of my desire to be someone who helped it, or could raise heroic actions. Dog in trouble, whose trouble I could not directly help, who's trying to help, was likely to cause exactly what happened. The best that I might have done really was to drive down to the side of the, pull over to the side of the road and call highway patrol or animal control or wish the dog well and everyone else and trust that something would happen. Sometimes there's nothing that we can actually do directly. We can hold the intention and work indirectly. Suzuki Roshi says, from a Buddhist viewpoint, you know, everything happens by some karma.

[28:54]

You know, good and bad karma. Good and bad, well, when you say good and bad, it already has a problem of morality. The karma is actually causality. When something happens, it has some reason why it happens. So without any reason, nothing happens. That's karma in the wider sense. When nothing happens, when my, that's a little bit tricky, but when the self, when I'm not wanting something out of this situation, when I'm seeing it as clearly as I can and setting aside that little irritation that wants to do something, that little magnetic pull that's manifesting, when I set that aside, then I can see clearly. then I can see clearly what needs to happen. So, Suzuki Roshi goes on, so in our, especially in Mahayana Buddhism, instead of karma, we have bodhisattva vow.

[30:09]

And to be free from karma is not possible for us, to be free from law of cause and effect. But it is possible for us to use, to make good use of it, to help others. To help others, you know, we suffer. to help others who are involved with karma. You know, that is because there is a law of karma, we can improve our life and we can, even though we suffer, we can by this, by suffering, be involved in karma. We can help others. So, the idea of the Bodhisattva's vow is to help others even before to help ourselves is closely related to the idea of karma. So, you have to put yourself forward in some way. Put yourself forward into the midst of activity, you're going to get caught up in causation. The Bodhisattva tries to act that way, we try to act that way as practitioners, not trying to get something for ourselves, but trying to see the situation as it is and to respond to it.

[31:23]

I remember, this is how I remember it, it may not be accurate, but I remember at Meili's funeral at Green Gulch, we did the full-on fire ceremony, Sojin did the full-on fire ceremony to cut away the bad karma and to release the good karma, the good karma, the unencumbered by by anything egoistic associated with her. At some moment, there was a question and answer afterwards, where it was kind of like we do Shosan ceremony, where there's a question and answer between the Doshi, the pre-officiating priest, and members of the group. And someone who had known Meili for a long period of time said to him, something like, Why doesn't she bother me anymore?"

[32:30]

And he said, because she's no longer in the way. Because she's no longer in the way. That's our good karma. So I'll end by doing a postscript story, if I may, and then we'll open it up for, I think I have a few minutes. I'll open it up for a conversation. So, May Lee also used to say, the deeper into practice you go, the more serendipity it is. Tell me if you think this has some serendipity in it. About three months after the almost accident, I was on my second day of work. And my second day of work, I come back from seeing a patient, and I see on my cell phone that I have two phone numbers from numbers I don't have any connection with. I usually think that those are spam. So, I didn't listen to them, but as I'm sitting there getting ready to go back to the next room, I get a phone call and I pick it up and the fellow on the other end of the phone says, your dog has been hit.

[33:49]

And I said, I thought, well, this is really a scam. My dog is in my apartment, and the dog walker is going to come take her for a walk and then put her back in the apartment. I said, what? He said, your dog's Kota, said the name off the list. Your dog's Kota, isn't it? I said, yes. Your dog can't get up. Your dog's been hit by a car on I-80. So, I got out of work as fast as I could. I was heading out to the parking lot and I picked up my phone and I called the dog walker and I said, what happened? And she denied any knowledge of it. And I said, what the four letter word happened? I immediately felt bad. There was no energy to it.

[34:54]

It was a short, helpless woman wanting some attention. I immediately felt bad. I immediately apologized. I mean, she didn't know what had happened. She had left the dog at her house instead of my house. Well, as the day went on, over the next couple of hours when we met, we pieced together a series of well-intended bad mistakes and ignorance led to my dog having jumped a six-foot fence from a strange place and followed her car onto the freeway where she was hit. But what's important about this study, this story, is I had no negative reaction to this person or the situation. It was just the situation that needed to be taken care of. I knew that without meaning anything ill about it, this woman's karma, her volitional action had its own impact and I was not going to add to that.

[36:05]

She had enough to do. In fact, we made every effort to make it spacious and useful because the important thing was that she not carry anything extra and that my dog get taken care of. So, I wondered how that happened. It was so clear and so unencumbered and so not, you know, so not in some ways me, right? That's my dog. In some ways, not me. And I thought, well, is that from all those drivers on I-5 that kind of were able to respond and created this possibility for me to have a second chance? Is it years of practice? Is it just good luck? I thought, well, you know, it's the emergency of the here and now. There's something quite wonderful about the emergency of the here and now. That is, whatever is here and now is what takes your whole attention.

[37:10]

Whatever is here now takes my whole attention. And all the other things, it's not that they don't have, they don't need attention in their own space and time. Our stories can be important in some venues, but in the here and now, it's just this. It's just what needs to be done. So I think that's what I, more or less, what I thought I was going to say, what I wanted to share. I wanted to say if Sojin Roche would please, please add anything else. What do you want?

[38:14]

When you were telling the story, a speculation occurred to me and then a question. Speculation is... As you were telling it, I was not hearing... You were looking for karmic motivations, but... as you reflect on it here. As I reflect on it, it was clear. Right. Well, not clear to me. But anyway, the question is whether our karma, whether our actions, I think of them often as mixed. You know, that there was a really positive aspect to pulling off the rope. So actually the question that I have is, if that happens tomorrow, what will you do?

[39:53]

Yeah, so depending on how fast the traffic is, I might slow down and drive along with it and hope to direct it off the next off-ramp. This is what I got from talking with my dog expert friends. Or I'll pull over at the next opportunity and I'll call animal control on CHP. Yes, I meant to say and I didn't, I really appreciate the point. all of our motivations are mixed you know almost all of them have wholesome intentionality behind them and that's Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. That that was the point. Yeah. Thank you for making it clear. So go. And then you said the phrase, I own my karma.

[41:08]

And I was thinking of that truck driver jackknifing down the side of the road, thinking I should have left later. OK. Now, if he were a Buddhist, he might say, but I'm not a separate self. This entire being is a highway. This entire being is about to have something which I could never have anticipated. I'm wondering if you really mean that we own our karma in the way that it Yeah, I think, so this is a particular Theravadan teaching that I think the medicine in it is to give us the opportunity to turn back to our own volitional activity. Clearly, karma is... The Buddha wouldn't talk about it, it's unknowable. I mean, in a certain way, it's unknowable where the roots of everything come from, but I can do the best I can to know my motivations and activities, knowing I'll know them incompletely and they're affected by many different things.

[42:18]

So, I see that phrase as a, for me, it's been a positive medicine. And can you imagine or only just driving past the dog? Have you had any sitting with that feeling? I'm driving past a dog. It has nothing to do with me. I don't know what the dog's karma is. I'm going home and having a nice meal. Have you ever sat with a dog? Totally. No. As I'm driving along the freeway, what I'm thinking is, it's either this or just drive on by. What was that from? Let me see if I can say this a little more clearly. So would that have been bad karma to do?

[43:21]

That would have been a different kind of actually wholesome, I think, volitional action that recognized the situation as not something I could do anything positive about. I could send off a good intention. Maybe I could make a phone call, but this one was beyond me. Yesterday I was walking to San Francisco General where I work, and I was walking down 21st Street in the Mission. It was the early morning time. There was a young man, someone's son, scruffy, homeless, wrapped in a dirty blanket, out from a heroin OD. Someone had left a banana by him. I walked by. I felt mixed about it. I didn't think there was anything that I could do in particular.

[44:24]

Clearly, his situation was known. He was breathing. He was alive. I didn't feel great about it, but I didn't know that there was really anything else that I would do that would have changed the circumstances. Because it seemed like when we're going the road, we are definitely putting ourselves in the middle of a universe that's and what does that mean in terms of practice? Do you think this is not good, this is not bad? And what's good and bad? I say not necessarily holding a parochia is something to strive for. I'm more calling out myself of wanting to be someone special. And saying in some circumstances, really the right thing to do, the appropriate thing, the most helpful thing is to not go there, is to not try and respond to it. And that's heroic as some idea of being someone special.

[45:25]

Do you have something? Does that help at all? Great. Peter? Thank you. I want to thank you for characterizing that initial consciousness of karmic activity as spiritual, and the subtle sign that there's something going on. And I think that's one of the things in my experience that's so difficult, turning towards that and actually understanding what that is. Is it a disagreement, a connection, some much bigger longing, or pain, You know, you've been denying it for a long time. And so, it seems to Congress that the small things, the little issues and difficulties that actually make a difference, we can see. Thank you. Yeah, beautiful.

[46:25]

Thank you very much. Mike? Andrea mentioned driving. One time out of 50, there's a catastrophe, a lifetime of regret. It's the same choice, the same decision, the same irresponsibility, but there's a complete radical divergence of consequences. Yeah, it's what Suzuki Roshi is saying. We think we can get away with each of the small problems until it becomes a big problem. And the instruction is give every small problem, small activity, that one little lie that Buddha is talking to his son about, your full attention, with the energy of a tiger killing a mouse instead of an antelope.

[47:31]

Yeah, I would just be playing Russian roulette until the time I do the same thing. I think about it every time. OK, am I really going to be here at the stop sign long enough to do this or not? OK, and then Kelsey and then Shirley. I volunteer to teach meditation in a prison near here, a women's prison. I think they have to own their karma. They have to say, I did this. Because sometimes I hear people say what they did that landed them in prison. And it reminds me of Mark's comment. It's bad luck a lot of these things that people do, and then there's a bad consequence.

[48:37]

It could be anybody in there, but if you're not, who's never been locked up, for example. There's this idea that we can get away with stuff. So anyway, I appreciate this. Thank you very much for that example. We also have those of us who have the privilege of not being at higher risk for paying a big price for our small indiscretions have more of a tendency to try and continue to get away with it. Yeah. Please, Kelsey, Charlie, Blake. When you're talking about emergencies and responding to the emergency right now, I feel like there's a lot of emergencies. And it's really hard to discern what is the emergency that I need to respond to right now. Because there's so many that keep coming up. Maybe it's too fast to say, but what's right in front of you right now?

[49:42]

What's your responsibility right now? And I'd add to that, when you have lots of things that are possible, there's not one thing that's really got your attention, like the person on the other end of the phone. Where's your deepest longing to respond? Thanks very much. It's beautifully skillful to put together a talk. But I want to ask, your question is about what we leave behind. And your talk seemed to indicate that we leave karma behind, but we can't understand what that is. Am I right in that?

[50:47]

Yeah. The effects of our activity is what gets dispersed. I think we need to end. Is that okay, Blake? Oh, I'm sorry. We took away all the curtains, meaning buildings, everything that we can't, everything that hides what we can actually see but don't.

[51:54]

He would see millions and billions of dogs in pain and misery. All of those dogs. That's everywhere, that's right. That's right. Just walk down the streets of Berkeley at night. Well, thank you, Fiona. I think let's talk outside, yeah. Thank you all very much for your attention and our conversation.

[52:48]

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