Good morning. Good morning. See something here. Okay.

[01:08]

This is our fifth day of Segin. And a variety of weathers, all of them chilly, but we're doing really well. Sitting is just really solid. And even though these are abbreviated days, Sashin feeling is, I really appreciate that very much. And I feel good that, I don't know about you all, but in my household, it feels like Gloria and I have done a pretty good job kind of the Sashin energy into the evening. not watching television, not indulging in hilarity, but just really quiet, late afternoons and eating simple food.

[02:19]

And that feels like a really good spirit, and I feel, I actually feel refreshed in the last few days. I feel fully covered. It's really, it's encouraging to feel one's store of energy replenish itself. So I'm grateful for that. We've been speaking about and I'm going to continue for the next couple of lectures doing that. And it's exciting to me. So many times we've studied something in Sashin, and we sort of get about halfway through it or two-thirds of the way through it, and we don't get to finish. We get to go through this whole text, which is very satisfying.

[03:24]

I do have, I guess at the end of Sashin, if any of you are... interested, we can send around. I've got a collection of links, particularly for printed material that you might find interesting if you want to pursue your study of this somewhat further. What I regret is that I haven't, there's also a wealth of recorded material, and some of which is interesting to me, but what I find is that I don't tend to, I don't tend to listen to that material very much. It's just, I prefer reading where I can kind of zero in on what seems relevant. But if I'm interested, particularly, I think there's great material from Shohaku Okamura Roshi and

[04:30]

I believe there's really good material from Sojin Roshi in our wider store, so you can investigate that for yourself. Before I press on, I want to revisit two questions that came up yesterday because I think that they're relevant. yesterday afternoon in Dokusan, and she brought up Bendawa, which is another really foundational writing of Dogen. It was written very early, as was the first drafts of Gunza Zengi. So Bendawa was written in 1231, And Dogen was just getting settled in Kyoto, and is here in the Kastanahashi translations, this one is beyond thinking.

[05:45]

And just the context is that he didn't include this in Shogento formally, and the speculation is that when he was recensions of the Treasury of the True Dharma Eye. He put together a 12 fascicle version and a 75 fascicle version. And at the point at which he assembled those, there was a shift in Togin's from when he wrote Pandawa, he was practicing without having a dedicated monastic community, and by the time he assembled Trefury Trudharma Ai, he was really on that monastic community, and in fact, he had assembled one in Kyoto, and then created another one, which has become AAG.

[06:51]

So he writes in Bendawa, I came back to Japan with the vision of spreading the teaching and saving sentient beings, a heavy burden on my shoulders. And yet I have put aside the hope of having the teaching prevail everywhere until the time of rising eternity. For the time being, I wander about like a cloud or a water weed studying the wind of the ancient sages. So we hadn't really settled, his understanding was settled, but his physical location was. At any rate, the first thing I want to reflect on is something that Dan Jackson asked about yesterday. And I didn't quite get it until I happened to look at this translation because I wasn't totally familiar with it.

[07:57]

Dan asked about Receptive Samadhi. And what I realized is that Receptive Samadhi is a translation in here that's used for the Japanese terms Jijuyuzum, which was a really pivotal teaching for Sojun Roshi. And he talked about it as self-fulfilling samadhi or self-joyous samadhi. And so that's what I think that's what Dan was citing. And I just want to read you the first section of Mendova is often exerted and chanted in Soto monasteries because it's really the teaching of in line with what we've been studying.

[09:03]

So I just want to read you, it's only a couple of paragraphs. All Buddha Tathagatas who individually transmit inconceivable Dharma, actualizing supreme, perfect enlightenment, wondrous way, unsurpassed and unconditioned. Only Buddhas transmitted to Buddhas without veering off. Receptive Samadhi, Jijuyo Zamai, is its mark. Sitting upright, practicing Zen, is the authentic self in the unconfined realm of this Samadhi. So this is the method, what generates or what reveals Jijuyo Zamai is our sitting. This inconceivable Dharma is abundant in each person. It is not actualized without practice.

[10:06]

And it is not experienced without realization. It sounds like two things, but really it's not. You can't actualize your awakened nature other than in the context of practice. And the practice naturally is the expression of the realization. And then this is this beautiful expression. When you release it, it fills your hand. When you release it, it fills your hand. How could it be limited to one or many? When you speak it, it fills your mouth. It is not bounded by length. When you release it, it fills your hands. So this is the letting go is precisely what allows the light, the sound, the taste of real life.

[11:22]

Come to your awareness. All Buddhas continuously abide in this Dharma. and do not leave traces of consciousness where they are. Sentient beings continually move about in this Dharma, is not clear in their consciousness. So we are Buddhas, we are simultaneously Buddhas and sentient beings. So this is why, you know, what I often say about and Buddha practices is that for the Buddhas, this is the natural manifestation of their being. For those of us who are engaged with

[12:23]

allowing Buddha to be born in us, then we have to apply ourselves consciously to practice. So it's those two sides. One is it's just natural. It's what, for example, Bodhidharma did after his awakening. He just sat for nine years, bringing forth that natural. manifestation of his Buddha nature, for some of us, we still have to make some effort. And what we're doing is we're making that effort to align ourselves with what is within us. So I wanted to speak to that briefly. The other question that came up which also is answered in Bendawa, was from Mary Duryea, and she's not here today, right?

[13:35]

I don't see her on screen, but I'll tell her when I see her. So there's the structure of Bendawa is there's a teaching first, and then there's a series of 19 questions. And Dogen's answers, his answers are a little sharp. And the questions are quick ones. The questions, I really encourage you to read Bendawa. It's very accessible. And it speaks to many of the questions that we have about practice. So question five says, Among the learnings, there is the practice of Samadhi. Among the six perfections, there is the perfection of jhana. This is what Mary was asking about, jhana. Both of these have been studied by bodhisattvas from the moment of arousing the thought of enlightenment, and both are practiced by the clever and dull.

[14:37]

What we speak of seems to be something like this. Why do you say that zazen alone contains the true teaching of the tathagata? Tobi's answer is, your question arises because the treasury of the true Dharma, I, the single great master, the unsurpassable great Dharma, has been named the Zen or Jhana school. You should know that the name Zen or Chan appeared in China and spread eastward. It was not heard of in India. Bodhidharma sat facing the wall at Shaolin Monastery for nine years. Neither monks nor lay people knew the Buddha's true teaching. So they called him the Brahman who concentrated on Zazen. Subsequently, all Buddhas and the very generation always devoted themselves to Zazen.

[15:42]

Heedless lay people who saw them without knowing the truth informally called them the zazen school. Later, the word zav, sitting, was dropped, and now it is the Zen school. The meaning of this teaching has been made clear through the discourses of the ancestors. Then he says, do not identify zazen with the jhana or samadhi of the six perfections or its release. So he's really denying that there are stages of practice, there are particular concentrations that you have to move through. It's just, as he says, you should know, practice of sasana is the complete path of Buddhadharma, and nothing can be compared to it.

[16:44]

So there. Anyhow, from there, I want to go on and questions. We can go back to it. So I want to read you this. Oh, first of all, I want to ask, do you guys still have, do you have your copies of the Fukanzazenki? Good, because Tomorrow, right? Yeah, I want to, we'll read the whole thing again, but I just want to make sure, I'll make a few more copies because there's some different people in here. But I wanted to make sure that people still have them. So we're going to this paragraph about the sitting. If you're a regular sitting, spread out thick matting and place a cushion above it. Sit either in the full lotus or half lotus position.

[17:48]

In the full lotus position, you place your right foot on your left thigh and your left foot on your right thigh. In the half lotus, you press your left foot against your right thigh. You should have your robes and belt loosely bound and arranged in order. Then place your right hand on your left leg and your left palm facing upwards on your right palm. neither inclining to the left nor to the right, neither forward nor backward. Be sure your ears aren't playing with your shoulders and your nose in line with your navel. Place your tongue against the front roof of your mouth with lips, with teeth and lips both shut. Your eyes should always remain and you should breathe gently through your nose. So I wanted to read you just a section from the Zuo Changyi of Changlu Zongzhu, which was written not so long before, well, maybe a hundred years before Dzoghen.

[19:14]

But here's what that text says. When you sit in meditation, spread a thick mat. You can watch and look at your frequency. I'm reading this so you can see it. When you sit in meditation, spread a thick mat in a quiet place. Loosen your robe and belt to your proper demeanor. Then sit in full cross-legged position. First place your right foot on your left thigh, then place your left foot on your right thigh. Or you may sit in the half cross-legged position. Simply rest your left foot on your right foot. Place your right hand on your left foot with your left hand on your right palm. Press the tips of the thumbs together. Slowly raise your torso and stretch it forward. Swing to the left and right in your body and sit erect.

[20:20]

Do not lean to the left or right, forward or backward. Keep your hips, back, neck, and head in line. Make your posture like a stupa, but do not strain your body upward too far, lest it make your breathing forced and unsettled. Your ears should be in line with your shoulder and your nose in line with your navel. Press your tongue against the front of your palate and close your lips and teeth. The eyes should remain slightly open to prevent drowsiness. So this looks like a good job to me. But this is the style, the Zazen style of our school. And Dogen made, you know, he made some revisions here, but really the same thing.

[21:21]

And it goes on like that. There's many parallels between Zuanqi, Zuanqiangyi, and Fukanza Zengyi, and also Dogen's later revision of Zuanqiangyi kind of stripped down. Zazenbi is about half the length of Hukon's Zazenbi. And as I said, it removes, for whatever reason, which is interesting to speculate, but we don't know, it removes kind of the theoretical or spiritual theoretical framework of the whole the materials that bracket the actual nuts and bolts discussion. So in your test, it says once you've adjusted your posture, take a deep breath, inhale and exhale.

[22:29]

Rock your body right and left and settle into a steady, mobile sitting position. Think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Non-thinking. This in itself is the essential part of Zaza. So this is another one of these pivotal of this instruction. And... So this instruction is missing from the Zuo Chani. And this thinking, think not thinking is... So think not thinking appears sometimes in Dogen.

[23:42]

It also is a subject of Shobo Genzo Zazen Shin, the acupuncture needle of Zazen. And it comes from a dialogue, a Tang Dynasty dialogue. A monk asked Weishan or Yakusan, what does one think of when sitting motionlessly in Zazen? replied, you think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? asked the monk. Non-thinking. Answered . So we're going to talk about this a while. Because this is something we need to understand. What does it actually mean for us in terms of what we're doing as we're seeing?

[24:49]

In a small book called Soto Zen that Shohaku Okamura, and he compares non-thinking to a car engine that's idling in neutral. Even though the engine has started, and is working, the gears aren't engaged in the move. He said that when we are non-thinking, we cannot say that there is no thinking. We cannot say that we are thinking. Thoughts are simply So the thoughts, so the engine is idling, but it's not just the activity of the engine. It's also, if we translate it into our mental activity, receptive samadhi.

[26:00]

We are, we're just sitting and receiving whatever is coming up. The hum of the air filters. The non-sound of the elliptical sander. Ah, birds. The blood coursing through our veins. Sound of, subtle sound of our heartbeat. We're idling. We're idling. So, in Zazen, our mind is fully alive. We're completely awake, and we can function in a moment.

[27:06]

If we're called to function, we function right there. We're like, actually, again, often of, we're just like the frog sitting on rock, just receptive, open. And when the fly comes by, just, we can do that. But mostly, We're just sitting, receiving, and allowing perceptions, thoughts, feelings to go by. And we don't get stuck on any of them. We don't get stuck, primarily, we don't get stuck on ourself.

[28:08]

In those moments of idling the self itself, is fluid. And maybe not as defined as it is at other points in our day. And what happens as we sit, particularly in Sajin, is that the mind is alive and it's bright. That light If we've turned, we've taken the backward step to shine the light inward, and there is no inward, as Ross was pointing out yesterday, there actually is no distinction of inward and outward. It's just if we turn our awareness to the so-called inside, it's bright and quiet in there.

[29:14]

If we turn to the so-called outside, the sun is shining and it's slanting through the slats and the blinds, the grass is blowing, the dew is shining on it, and we can bit by bit we get much more comfortable with just the floating of these perceptions. Okomoroshi said, by keeping an upright posture without rejecting or chasing after anything, we aren't controlled by delusive thoughts. I wanted to share with you another commentary, which I hope I have.

[30:29]

Yes. So as I was looking around, I discovered this on the Crooked Cucumber page, or I'm not sure if they were that, or Cucumber.com, David Chadwick's pages. There's several lectures by Tatsugami Roshi in 1970. Tatsugami Roshi was someone that Suzuki Roshi brought over in 1970. He had been, you know, at the Zendo manager at AKG. And he brought him to Tassahara to establish the monastic forms, which had been pretty loose and pretty minimal among them.

[31:37]

And Tatsugami, Roshi was the one who really set them up. And it happens that The practice period, one of the practice periods that Tatsugami Roshi led was Sojin Roshi's Shuso period. So Tatsugami Roshi was Sojin's teacher. And Sojin always said, you know, we couldn't communicate with each other in words because he had no English and So I did have no Japanese, but we understood very well. And he had great love for Tatsugami Roshi. Tatsugami Roshi, he was fierce. But I think this commentary is really interesting. So the translation was available of Dogen at that point in time.

[32:43]

was by a Japanese scholar, Reiho Matsunaga. And Matsunaga's translations were available from kind of the 50s, and it was before, way before the translations that we have now, and even before the Dr. Abe and Norman Waddell's translations, which came a little later. And so the translation of think not thinking that Matsunabi used was think the unthinkable, which has a really interesting edge. You know, it has a, it has a real, there's a wonderful and really think the unthinkable. So I want to read you this. This is from Dr. Dhamma Roshi. In Fukansa Zendi, Dogen Zenji asks, how do you think the unthinkable?

[33:52]

Dogen himself answers saying that you should throw away. This means that you should go directly forward without looking backwards or forwards towards the left or towards the right. What will happen if you plunge into doing something, eliminating everything? No matter what you are about to do, throwing away everything should be the basic attitude towards life. So this is just an interesting interpretation. But it's really to throw away everything is to throw yourself into the house of the Buddha. doing Zazen, not thinking about your job, not thinking about what happens next week, it's just like throwing yourself into this activity.

[34:54]

And then Tatsukami says, this basic attitude is exemplified by the story of a famous Chinese Zen master, who fulfilled the position of Tenso, or head of the kitchen. There are really a lot of great stories about Tenso. There's Dogen's meeting with the Tenso when he arrived in China. There's the Tenso who takes over the picture of water, which is another story. I was thinking yesterday, there's a lot from the tensos here. I still learn from the tensos here. I think of Maylee Scott, our late friend in the kitchen, and her upright tensos. And I think of Ron Nestor, who slapped my hand with a ladle when I went to peek in the box.

[36:04]

I never did that again. Tensos are fierce because they are single-mindedly focusing on the task and the responsibility they have. So this is Tatsukami's distro-yedosis. One day, The Zen master Tenzo was preparing rice for the monks. The rice was boiling and the steam was rising up. Suddenly Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva appeared in the steam. When the Tenzo saw Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva, he gave the Bodhisattva a blow, making him disappear. The Tenzo said, You shouldn't be here. It's not necessary for you to appear now.

[37:06]

He chased him away. If you devote yourself in complete wholeheartedness to the preparation of a meal, you know that you're going to play with Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva, because preparing the meal is your whole life. Sitting here, this meat, is our whole life. When you prepare a meal, you yourself are revealed as you are. And then he says, how do you think the unthinkable? It's not really a question. As both Dogen and Buddha say, it means you should go forward directly, throwing away everything. Isn't that a wonderful story? You know, I found this gem. that we can find is we're kind of digging around. So to think not thinking.

[38:14]

What that means to me in terms of practice is not that there's no thought. Not that the mind isn't functioning. As he said, the mind is and flexible, receptive and potentially responsive. And the non-thinking is just to allow this stream of perceptions just one perception after another. It's as if you are, in this case, as if you're sitting by the side of a stream.

[39:16]

And you're just keeping your mind, your attention, your eye on one place in the stream. Maybe the overhang, overhang a rock where an eddy and bubbles form. And you just, the water is constantly flowing and you just, you watch the water slow past that point. Some moment, maybe a leaf will drift by. Or a twig. And sometimes when that happens just naturally, you follow it down the stream of ways. It's our attention.

[40:19]

And then you just bring your attention back to that spot. Something will always catch us. But part of the essential act is just returning, just return to that point, that point where you are receptive, that place where your bright attention can settle. So in the next paragraph, Dogen says, the Zazen I speak of is not learning meditation. So it's not something that you're doing to something. I think battery?

[41:23]

Do we have another battery? We're getting good at this, huh? That was pretty quick. What Dugan is saying here is we're not doing a practice of steps and stages.

[42:28]

We're not learning meditation. We're simply practicing enlightenment, practicing realization. And the next sentence I love. So he says, the last one I speak of is not learning meditation. It is simply the Dharma gate of repose and bliss. I spent many years puzzling over that sentence. When does this repose and bliss arise? You know, this hurts. And... It took a long time, but actually it did not as some great experience, but just the ease of sitting down. I experienced it every morning. It's like every morning I have to struggle to get out of bed.

[43:29]

And I come here and I sit down and just in that moment of sitting, here is this repose of bliss. It's simply the Dharma gate of repose and bliss, the practice realization of totally culminated enlightenment. Again, we come back to this practice realization. The pivotal point of Fugunza's ending. It is the manifestation of ultimate reality. Traps and snares can never reach it. You can't get caught. You're free when you're actually sitting. Once its heart is grasped, you are like the dragon when he gains the water, like the tiger when she enters the mountain.

[44:37]

The dragon, the tiger in the mountain, These are auspicious animals. And when they enter the water, when they enter the wagon, the mountain, they are completely in there. They are free and natural. And of course the message is, when you practice Zazen, that's exactly the state that you enter even when it doesn't necessarily the encouragement here this is deeply encouraging deeply encouraging to hear that it's the dharma gate of repose and bliss even if we stand outside that gate for quite a while we will enter and we will enter as the

[45:42]

dragon gains the water and the tiger enters the mountain, we will enter our own territory. The realm of naturalness, basically. Which is not necessarily any exalted state. It's just naturalness. A space where we feel ourselves, a space where we feel at home in our body and at home in our world. And I think that, I like to think that we are feeling at home here. This is our water. This is our mountain. So I'm going to stop there. and see if you have any questions or comments here in the room and also in Zoom land.

[46:56]

Oh, there's a lot of people there. So in Zoom, if you have a question, please raise your mutual hand. And here you can just raise your actual hand. Yeah, Dan. There's a lot of focus on the breath. Following the breath is an accessible way to sort of just be open to what is happening. And one of the things is to tell it's happening. And likewise in the four foundations of mindfulness, So what he's asking, in this instruction, where is the breath?

[48:05]

Doesn't seem like it's emphasized. So it's there, and I would say you're correct, it's not emphasized. It's there in the first part of the instruction says, place your tongue against the front roof of your mouth with teeth and lips both shut. your eyes should open and you should breathe gently through your nose. That's one instruction on breath.

[49:05]

And then he says, and actually as you're settling yourself, he says, once you've adjusted your posture, take a deep breath, inhale, and rock your body right and left. So that's the, that's the, as a kind of induction, to Zazen, we do some deep breathing. My feeling about this is that, well, first of all, if you align your body, and Sojourner always says this, if you align your body correctly, then your breath will naturally be correct. Your body will be open, and there'll be nothing obstructed your aura. In other schools of Buddhism, there were very explicit and detailed instructions about breath.

[50:14]

And my feeling is that Dogen connected that with part of the process of learning meditation. And that was precisely what he wanted to de-emphasize. What he was saying to himself in Buddha Mudra, then you're naturally going to breathe. And that, you know, in like in speaking with or listening to Arada the Rinzai teacher that Genpo and I are connected with, you know, there are all these breath techniques. There's deep breathing. There's hara breathing. There's, you know, breathing down to your... There's all of these approaches.

[51:22]

There's breathing mu. There's placing mu on your breath and really... Tolkien just says, you should breathe gently through your nose. I think that's intentional. And one of the things I will say, Laurie told me, she was at Zephyrsko Zen Center in the late 70s. At a certain point, they... really move the zazen instruction to emphasize posture rather than breath. Also, when breath was emphasized, people had more psychological events.

[52:31]

Whereas when you're breathing in a line, and easily, you're less likely to destabilize yourself. You may also be less liable, less likely to have some big experience, but a big experience good, big experience bad. It's like, we're not looking, we're just looking to be alive. So that's my thought about it. If our attention is like a frog sitting on a rock, that implies there's something to catch in this fly. Well, no. It just, what there is to catch, what's the fly, is whatever activity you're on to participate in.

[53:39]

For the fly, it's lunch, right? But, we're just sitting with the kind of readiness, you know, from behind is bright and awake. We can just respond to whatever Thumbs up. So there's not necessarily something that's a fly. It's just like we're called upon. We're ready. Does that make sense? I should look, see if there's anyone out there. Anyone on Zoom? Mary. Thank you. Apropos of the last question, I heard it posited that concentration and observation practices are useful for disentangling karma, while Shikantaza has that, what you just described as settling into one's own element metaphor.

[54:59]

And I'm wondering, first of all, if you agree with that, and it seems that idea is maybe in... contrary to the idea that breathing practices are more likely to bring up psychological events, or maybe that's related. I'm wondering. So the first part of that thought, again, I just want to make sure I got it, and then I can repeat it to people. That observation and concentration practices are useful for disentangling karma, or dealing with one another. So she's asking what I think about the proposition that concentration and observation practices are useful for disentangling karma. Is that correct, what you're saying? Yes. Yeah.

[56:01]

Hard for me to say. What Sajjan always taught, actually, was that zazen is non-karmic activity. So while we're sitting zazen, we're not creating karma. Whether concentration, whether shamatha and vipassana, you know, they may be useful, they might be useful for disentangling karma. I'm not so sure. It's a hard question. You should give a response to that. I have a thought to go into the conversation about it. I feel like it takes a certain amount of concentration to be able to sit with the real deep discomforts in our mind and not move away from it, but actually to settle and get to a deeper level of it.

[57:25]

So I have resonance with what Mary's asking in that way, to have concentration in order to be able to get to the deeper levels of our karma. Okay, so hang on, let me just repeat that. Ryushin is saying she has resonance with what Harry was saying, that there's a certain degree of concentration that is necessary to bring us to the settled place of Zaza. Is that correct? I could say that to the settled place of Zaza that allows you to open to the deeper karmic dots. That allows you to open to the deeper karmic dots. Entanglement, yeah. They're not two separate. Yeah. Does that resonate? Yeah, yeah. It does.

[58:26]

Concentration is necessary. I think that concentration is necessary. In my experience, uh that observation is something that just arises that that actually zazen is is more just like the the object stage it's like it's vipassana but it's not in stages it's just we enter it immediately but it calls but But we have to apply ourselves. And the place where we apply ourselves, to go back to Dan's question, is not necessarily the formality of the breath, but actually in the formality of our posture. So let's see. We'll take one or two more.

[59:32]

Judy? Thank you, Hozan. Okay. Yeah. As you know, I practiced in the blend of Soto Rinzai for quite some time and formal, you know, koan practice and all that. And I was just reflecting on what you've been saying in light of, you know, in that, if you will, cauldron of awakening, the spirit of... people practicing with their koan, just the awareness of that and that intensity had a really profoundly helpful, you know, and so on. And what I think was de-emphasized, except in particular times, like Shuso Hosen or Mondo or something, was this kind of

[60:34]

communal, well, also council practice, but that's different, of this communal face-to-face, bringing forth the Dharma together, that I find is more, for me at this time anyway, aligned with this kind of naturalness, particularly because it feels like that's how everyday life tends to be. How do we cooperate in bringing forth the Dharma together? And it seems really important to have this, the teacher, you know, the teacher holding us together as you're doing right now, wondering, you know, this was introduced for us by Suzuki Roshi and so on. I wonder how you see its importance, its centering in our practice.

[61:34]

What's important? The community with the teacher as the anchor. With the teacher as the anchor. I have very complex ideas and thoughts about that. You know, I think that a teacher is important. Very important. Grateful to have had one for 40 years. But it's also true. See, what I experienced in Rinzai context is that the, actually, the community was very warm. It's a lovely community, and I'm still friends with people I haven't seen there for 10 years. and there's something happening there, but that the the crux of your Dharma work is something that happens relationally between you and your teacher.

[62:43]

There's a one-to-one dynamic there, and it's very dynamic. It's really powerful and important, and it's great, but Having had relationship with Sojin, I feel that what I feel is that there's a way in which Sojin pointed me to the circle of community as what was the fundamental teaching. And if I was, if I strayed, or if I acted stupidly or thoughtlessly, he would, he would redirect me. But what we do together, that is, I think that's a very, that's the heart of Soto.

[63:45]

And, you know, when I was at Tsuyoji, we didn't have Doka-san. We didn't, we hardly ever, You met with the teacher maybe during Sejin. And this is what Sojin said, everything was so, you know, Suzuki Roshi was absolutely pivotal, but you didn't have Doka-san with him. You just interacted with him. And showing, and I think this is what Sojin was showing, was how do you, interact with people in your world. And I think that's really, it's kind of an explicit message or so. Well, and it's also the centering of this kind of communal dialogue in this way, to me, is modeling.

[64:47]

Yeah. Bringing that forth in every day. Yeah, I think that's true. Thank you. So, one more. Okay, well, we're over time, so we're going to end, but thank you, and we'll continue tomorrow with Foucault Susendi. Bring your copy so we can read it, at least to ourselves, if not out loud. to awaken with them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I am out to win them. Dharma gates are done. I am out to win them. To those ways unsurpassable, I am out to become it.

[65:53]

Bye.

[65:55]

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