Oftentimes in Zen talks or spiritual talks, we like to talk about reality from the point of view of almost a kind of an ideal. An ideal which is true, but which might sound ideal. In Zen we can talk about the reality of non-duality or tranquility, harmony, so forth, serenity. And those are aspects of practice that we yearn for. And if they didn't exist, we probably wouldn't be doing this. Or if we didn't think that they existed, we wouldn't be doing this. But I've always been interested in the problems of life and the problems of practice.

[01:07]

And interested in terms of talks and speaking about the problems more than speaking about the possible ease that's there. I'd rather talk about the possible dis-ease that's here. Because my feeling is if we can illuminate and to somewhat understand the problems, then the rest of it takes care of itself. We don't need to worry so much about what an exalted state, what an advanced meditative state is like, or an advanced understanding is like. If we understand what our problems are, the rest of it will take care of itself. And it seems to me that the main difficulty we have is understanding clearly what our real problems are as opposed to what we think our problems might be.

[02:13]

So I would like to talk about a list, a Buddhist list of the five hindrances. And most people, since this is a beginner's sasheen, although there's plenty of people here who are not beginners, technically, most people come to Zen practice being interested in meditation. Most people don't come to Zen practice because they're interested in Buddhism. That's a big generalization, and it's not true for everybody. But for the most part, people that practice Zen, to begin with, they're mostly interested just in sitting. And they're not so much interested in studying. And that's good, actually. We encourage that. And we encourage people to just sit at the beginning for some time, for years, without finding it necessary to study, to learn about Buddhism.

[03:22]

to just to experience what it is just to be sitting still is the main thing. And understanding the structure of Buddhism is secondary to that, the beginning. And then later, studying becomes more important and can go with the sitting. So this list of five hindrances that I want to describe is a part of traditional Buddhism. And I'd like to come at it from the point of view of how it helps us to focus on what we're doing, particularly in sitting practice, and particularly in an all-day sitting like today. And not so much, each one of these hindrances could be a lecture in itself. So, and this is a rather short lecture, so I won't go into great detail on each one of them.

[04:31]

It'll be somewhat superficial, maybe a kind of reader's digest of the hindrances. And then we can talk about them a little bit. You already know these hindrances very well, actually. It's just, I will put them in a more Buddhist context. And again, how did these come up, these hindrances, how did they come up during Zazen? These five hindrances are sensual desire, anger, anxiety, uncertainty or skepticism, doubt, and the last one is laziness. They can go in any order actually.

[05:34]

And traditionally in Theravadan Buddhism, originally, if you want to, there are different meditative states, and if you want to rise through these different states, you have to first be able to, at least temporarily, let go of the hindrances. That's a prerequisite. So that's just an interesting point that were these great elaborate and difficult states, meditative states that the Theravadins were aware of and practiced, they felt that you couldn't even begin unless you could at least suspend temporarily these five hindrances. Okay, so let me just go over each one of them briefly. The interesting thing is we all, we each have our own hindrance that gives us more trouble than the others.

[06:49]

We have our favorite hindrance or hindrances. And some people feel like all five just are, every one of them gives them a hard time. But most people, one or two stand out as being their thing that just seems all pervasive. And others, other hindrances aren't such a big deal. So essential desire is, you know what that is, it's just the craving, craving for something in this material world. It could be as a broad range of what that can encompass, food, sex, images of your perfect family life is within that realm, a nice house, a great relationship, a great lover, your career, details of your career and how you'd like your career to go.

[07:56]

Those are all part of a sensual world and you can develop images of how you'd like those to be. all the intricacies in that world. And particularly in Sashin, when you're just sitting and facing the wall all day long, that kind of desire comes up so strongly. During a one-day sitting, or especially a multi-day sitting, food becomes very important. People start thinking about lunch, start thinking about dinner. Because everything in a sasheen, everything is so pared down and so bare that our usual sensual desires just sort of become amplified. We look forward to tea tree, to having tea and a cookie all of a sudden becomes a big thing.

[08:57]

And of course the problem is in our everyday life that this kind of craving comes up in everything that we do and prevents us from just being able to enjoy what we're actually doing because we're always thinking about how we'd like something more. The next hindrance is anxiety, which is basically just another way of saying fear. Anxiety I guess is a kind of a on garden variety fear, or everyday fear. And usually fear means foreboding about something which is going to be happening to us, which might be uncomfortable. If we have anxiety, we're worried, we're stirred up that something in the future may happen which is going to be unpleasant. And interestingly to me is how prevalent, for instance, Prozac has become in our society.

[10:10]

So many people, people who I know well, are taking Prozac because their anxiety level has gotten so high that they don't feel they can function well. And Prozac and other drugs help them to be able to function. in a better way. I don't know whether that's good or bad, but it's a phenomenon which seems to be increasing, how pervasive anxiety is in our culture. So, when we sit, anxiety can come up in different ways. It can come up bodily. Some people just start hyperventilating at a certain point where their breathing gets very deep or kind of scary. Other people, my way of dealing with anxiety is just to start thinking. Just start turning out a lot of thoughts is a way to deal with anxiety.

[11:13]

But something about just being able to sit in this posture and focus on our breathing is an excellent way to deal with anxiety. It doesn't necessarily make it go away, but it gives us a a position that we can start to deal with anxiety, rather than running away from it or repressing it. And if we were to trace it down probably, the root of anxiety is probably just the fear of dying, fear of death. But the best way to become familiar with that and to trace it down is through sitting. And also, you know, it's a little embarrassing, especially if fear is a big part of our life.

[12:30]

We're a little embarrassed to be fearful. As adults, we're supposed to have gotten beyond that. We don't really want to have people know that we're still afraid. But I don't think it's nothing to be embarrassed about. None of these hindrances need cause embarrassment. Because actually, if we all knew how much we all experience these, I think we would see how much we have in common. Anger is the next hindrance and anger affects deeply some people and not so deeply other people. It just depends on a personality. And usually the thing with anger is it's kind of a blaming or a feeling that something is causing us discomfort. Something is not the way we want it to be.

[13:30]

And what's more, it's somebody else's fault. or some situations fall, or some governments fall. And anger always creates this kind of division between me as the victim and X as the assailant. It may be true, I may be a victim and they may be an assailant, but the anger is this particularly kind of disturbing emotion of just being stirred up, stirred up, stirred up. And during sitting during Sashin, you notice we can start to feel pretty raw or vulnerable. After we're sitting for a day or two, three days, we get very sensitive. And the least little thing, it looks like it might be an insult. Somebody may be insulting us or ignoring us or something that we take as a slight can stir up this instant kind of irritation or anger.

[14:37]

If we get into a dispute during a sasheen or during sitting with somebody, it all of a sudden becomes a very big, big deal, and anger is quick to arise. And then, doubt or uncertainty, The problem with uncertainty is we're never sure which way to go, which is right, this is right, that's right. We don't know which way is the right way and it's hard for us to commit to anything because we're constantly concerned that we're not doing the right thing or going the right way. Basically doubt can be very healthy. But doubt that has the quality of more inquiry would be a healthy form of doubt, inquiry. But doubt which is reactionary, which is just like defensive kind of doubt and skepticism,

[15:48]

creates a problem because we can't embrace what's before us because we're constantly sort of trying to evaluate and judge. Is this the right way? Is that the right way? Instead of just being open to what's in front of us. And frequently people, in Zen practice, the thing is with all the ceremony, the bowing and so forth in the various Japanese forms, Some people have a lot of skepticism about that. Why is it necessary? What is, you know, doing prostrations and bowing down before a statue? What is that? That doesn't seem right. And of course, as we're sitting, we wonder, what's the point? You know, why am I here? Why am I sitting here looking at the wall all day long? Why am I doing this? I could be out doing something which is more practical.

[16:54]

I have so many things that I need to be doing. Am I really on the right track by sitting here? I don't seem to be getting much happier. I still have all the problems, so why? What's the point? And the last hindrance is laziness. sloth. And the interesting thing about laziness is that although it actually causes less, it doesn't seem to cause as much immediate pain as the other hindrances, it's more difficult to deal with because there's just a fundamental lack of energy. And it's a catch-22. If you're feeling lazy, how can you arouse that energy? If you just feel drained, if you have no sense of enthusiasm or no sense of wanting to exert yourself, how do you come up with that?

[18:00]

In sitting practice, actually people who are beginning don't have so much of a problem with laziness because it's all new. It seems interesting and it's kind of a novelty and a refreshingly different thing to do actually. Sitting and Zen practice is so different from what we usually do in this culture. But after we get familiar with it, get used to it, kind of work out some of the kinks and settle into a routine and become somewhat comfortable, then the problem of laziness arises because we're kind of comfortable. We want to take the path of least resistance. And interestingly in the Arhat scheme of things, the Arhat said that, I mean in the Theravadan scheme of things, that there are different divisions of practitioners, advanced practitioners, and the first level would be called a stream enterer.

[19:23]

And a stream enterer was a person who was able to permanently do away with the hindrance of doubt. They have complete conviction and commitment to this way. Then a couple steps up the line in terms of the Theravadin approach is a non-returner, somebody who's transcended the usual karmic wheel that we're in, let go enough so that they don't have to, they're not reborn. And the non-returner has been able to let go of all the hindrances, the next three hindrances, sensory desire, anxiety, and anger, as well as doubt. But still, at that point, still has some laziness. And only the arhat, who is the most accomplished being in the Theraboden system, only the arhat is a person who's been able to do away with laziness.

[20:33]

So it's interesting that laziness is the last hindrance to go. So, the important thing is what to, okay, so we have these hindrances, these problems. They hinder our ability to just see clearly. Because we're so consumed with each one of them, We don't see what's right in front of us. So what do we do about it? That's really the important thing, is what do we do about it? Basically, I want to say we do nothing, but that's not really the case.

[21:47]

As a hindrance comes up, and I'm just talking about meditation now, as a hindrance comes up, the first thing is just to be aware that it's coming up. We don't necessarily have to label it, although you could if you found that helpful. But when sensual desire comes up, some fantasy comes up, to first of all just to be aware that that's happening is the main thing. And the next step is to let go of not throw it down, but not to continue carrying it, not to promote it. And that's kind of the key point. It's a very delicate balance to actually be aware of something as it comes up mentally or emotionally, to be aware of that

[23:06]

And really to taste it, to taste that desire or if you're anxious to really taste that anxiety. How does that anxiety really feel in the most naked honest way? And yet at that point, to be willing to just let go, but not try to let go. Well, actually, you could try to let go, but it's not letting go like throwing away, letting go like not sustaining, because as these hindrances come up, the tendency is to sustain them. When we get angry, we want to kind of work on that anger and sustain it. We get something out of it, that's why they come up. We're getting something out of it, even though it's painful, it's giving us something. And at that point, when we find that we're sort of like sustaining it, to let go of that effort to sustain it is the kind of critical way

[24:19]

of working with the hindrances during meditation. And of course that extends out to our life as well. It's easier in a kind of very concentrated setting where we're really focused to see that process and to do that process And then to be able to do that in our life, in the midst of all of our activity, is more difficult, but absolutely necessary. And these hindrances are so ingrained, you know, these are habits of a lifetime, going way back to childhood. So it requires a certain amount of friendliness.

[25:21]

We don't have to love our hindrances, I suppose. But a certain amount of familiarity and patience. And unfortunately, they're quite messy. You know, it would be nice if we can talk about them. I can talk about them as a nice list of five factors which seems very neat and sort of pleasing that we can sort of put this package together and call them the hindrances. But in actuality, it's quite messy in our life. It doesn't feel so neat. And being willing to get in there and be messy and get your hands dirty And yet to be able to see where it is that we're sustaining them and to be able to make some effort to let go of that is necessary.

[26:29]

So they could seem rather depressing. They're so almost insurmountable kinds of problems, but There is a tremendous, it's a very fluid situation. There's a lot to work with and it's not static. And the more that we sit, the more that we can see that there are different possibilities, little swirls, eddies, currents, that it's not a fixed proposition. Each of these hindrances has different ebbs and flows and we can begin to navigate So, that's all I'd like to say. If you have any thoughts or questions, you can talk about it. It seems that these hindrances that you describe are all feelings. Are all feelings? You mean emotions?

[27:41]

Yes, but the language, you have to be really careful with the language. Because first of all, we're not, we are and we're not trying to reach a higher level of practice. And it's really important. And always, when we have zazen instruction, we say we're not trying to achieve a special state of mind. And there's a difference in the Zen school, and there are differences within the Zen schools about that. In the Soto school, and in our particular way of doing it, we're not trying to reach a special state of mind or an advanced state of mind, even though you can read about all the possibilities. And it's an important point. So when I'm talking about suspending, I want to be really cautious because it's not like If we have too much of this feeling like we're trying to control our mind, then it's just one more manipulation, you know, it's endless.

[29:48]

Somehow we have to break that circuit of trying to control things to get someplace. So it's more a matter of being aware and If you're aware of something which is causing you pain, the obvious thing would be to relax. If you're creating pain for yourself, and you can see how you're creating pain for yourself, to be able to let go of that. But it's not so much... You have to be careful, because there's a fine line between that and controlling. But we don't let go of feelings of love and compassion and anchors. Yes, yes we do. We can let go of everything. And actually you're right, but it's how you see that which is more important. It's how you do that which is more important than the actual, what you're getting at. How you do it is more important than the end result.

[30:53]

But it's true, positive feelings and delightful feelings and inspired feelings, while they have benefit, ultimately they also, too, limit us. Because they're kind of an agenda that we've got set up. It's a very pleasant agenda, but it's still, we've imposed a framework on reality that feels good to us. It doesn't sound to me like you're talking about eliminating problems as much as you are coexisting with problems. Would you say that's true? Well, it depends on how big of a scale the talk.

[32:03]

Yeah, but... I mean, can you really eliminate those problems? And I guess I see... I mean, I'd like to know how. I guess I see like there's a difference between the word hindrance and problem, because problem is like it can be solved, but I don't know if hindrance can. Well, I don't know how far to take it. Let's just say in degree, let's talk about degree, certainly. Obviously, in degree, if somebody has a huge amount of anger, They can, through various inner work, get to the point where that level, that intensity of that anger is much diminished. There's no doubt about that. Whether it's totally gone, I don't know. It doesn't really matter. you know, whether it's total.

[33:08]

If we get to that point, then we can find that out. Well, the only way that it does matter, though, at this point in time, is if I look at the Arhat and think that that person has eliminated all of these problems, and it makes that person really separate. Whereas if I can see that that person has learned how to manage or be in relationship to the hindrances, And that gives me enormous faith that I might be able to do the same thing. Well, you know a little bit. Well, no I don't. And so a matter of eliminating, I just want to sidestep that because I don't know. And in Zen we're not so concerned with eliminating. And our huts are more concerned with eliminating. How that works, I don't know.

[34:12]

It's not really our practice to do that. I just mention that because that's the body of training that these came out of, but that's the only reason. We always want to look for the ultimate, to know what the ideal is, but I don't think it's so necessary in this case. I think just to To not have a fixed idea of what the end result is, is the main thing. Amy? I was going to say that what I've heard a lot in Zen is, be with your discomfort. Be with what comes up. Sense in your body.

[35:13]

And you said, don't invite them to tea. Don't hang on to it. And this is what you were saying, it's so difficult to talk about being with something and yet not holding on to it. Yes. It's a delicate balance. I like the diplomatic term rapprochement. So, I leave you alone, you'll leave me alone. In terms of my desires, that if I just don't grab on to them, then maybe they'll just leave me alone, and leave me in peace. Yeah, I think that's probably true. Yeah. But they've already got you. Ron? You mentioned fear of death as being one of the problems.

[36:27]

Some people I know think it's the source of all the problems. And you mentioned bringing these things up in sitting practice as a way of getting them physically in place. How would you bring up fear of death? Well, I didn't mean to say that you should bring something up. It comes up. Yeah, I would say that if you, my feeling is that if we really were to allow our anxiety to really come up, we would see that we're basically afraid of being extinct or being wiped out somehow, or dying. But that would just show itself to us. You don't have to bring it up. The spirit gets covered by a bunch of things. Yeah, you can make an essay about it, but it's the raw, visceral feeling of it. Is there any way to get in touch with it better?

[37:30]

Just by whatever method you're using for concentration and focus, to just be devoted to that with an open mind. Two things. In the book called Eat More, Weigh Less, which I've been reading, the author talks about meditation as one aspect of this program. And he says in there that you don't find peace or inner peace through meditation. you stop, or you learn how to stop disturbing the peace that's already there. Yeah, that's good. That seemed to me to be a way to see, a context to see the hindrances. And so the question about positive emotions, like love and compassion, in my experience they don't present themselves as hindrances.

[38:42]

If love arises in a context where it's a hindrance, it's not love, it's sensual desire, or it's anger at the loved person, or it's fear of losing, or something like that, but love has a positive emotion, knows its place, and compassion. That's one way to look at it. Well, the common thread is that the hindrances are all self-centered. And that's a whole other topic which we don't have time for. And that's what creates the separation that Mel talks about. Yes. That cuts you off from the world, makes you feel isolated and alone. Yes. It keeps reinforcing itself. Yeah. I feel like maybe I'm stating the obvious, but in terms of, for myself with the hindrances, it's really a matter of noticing that I'm dealing with the hindrances.

[40:03]

People are talking about them in terms of feelings, and I just think about it very simply as there are these things that I do, And it's noticing that and getting to know how we hinder our awareness. That's what I think is for the central. Yeah. Yeah. It's the meat of practice. Or the beans of practice. I come from a Christian tradition, and I recently had an experience of... I can describe this, let's see... of experiencing my kind of being breathe.

[41:16]

I was actually... in a period of retreat. A Christian retreat? Yes, well it was a private retreat, just some time apart and I was wrestling with just sort of this amorphousness stuff and in my, at one point I sort of asked and actually asked with kind of I asked for help and the response was that of one of being with from the inside out. From the inside, it's like I felt like my breathing was being breathed for me.

[42:25]

And there was something so, it was like that was enough. That was disgustingly enough. And it seemed like it came with this kind of, I mean, it was like this realization that there was breathing that was happening kind of extends into all my cells and is released as well. And in my kind of, oh, I don't know, embracing of this was like I, I asked, it's like I said, so this will be with me always.

[43:29]

And the response was, well, no, because even this you have to let go of. But the thing about it, and that's where this aspect of dying is, when we die, the breath is the last to go. But it seemed like at that point there is this trust. And that all of this is just trust. Yes. Well, what you said, I'm glad you said what you said because as you were speaking I was realizing that if I've given the impression that the hindrances, that here are we and then here are the hindrances, that's a problem. And when we talk about it, it kind of comes out sounding like that. But it's like toys are us, you know, hindrances are us.

[44:31]

And you can't It's a simultaneous thing at the same time as you can see that something is creating a problem. It's you. It's us. So, it's two levels happening at the same time. And your way, actually, of just being one with what it is, one with your hindrances, whereas that was what you were experiencing, actually. You can't ask for more than that.

[45:32]

But that's a very good little adventure you had, a story. I liked it. I think it's time. Thank you.

[45:59]

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