Good morning. Good morning. It's my pleasure to introduce to those who don't know Catherine, Catherine Zanis, who is the head teacher at the Santa Cruz Zen Center and the Monterey Bay Zen Center. And that's currently, she has been practicing Zen with Suzuki Roshi beginning 1967. And it's been a continuous practice, and her practice has expanded onto students. And we are fortunate enough to be with her today. Thank you. Thank you, Dolly. It's expanded onto students. This is a big group for me. Santa Cruz and Center is modest relative to this, and it's quite wonderful to visit your incredible Sendoh.

[01:19]

It looks more beautiful to me than the last time. And you have managed to maintain the forms quite clearly. Santa Cruz community is a little different and we're having an interesting time with the forms. I have been modifying the forms. Can you hear me? I have been modifying the forms a bit to meet my sense of what's appropriate for that community and so it's interesting to me to see how well you are carefully or continuously maintaining the tradition. I stumbled a little bit when I came in because although I've trained for 20 years or more in exactly the form that we follow here, I haven't been doing it recently and so I had to catch it again.

[02:22]

Let's see. Excuse me? Juggling? It's all a juggling act, isn't it? I'm going to talk about dragons. Start talking about dragons, and then we'll see. I don't know how many of you have had a chance to look at Jane Hirshfield's book, October Palace. a poem, two poems from that collection were published in this latest issue of the Wind Bell. And Jane was at Tassajara at the time that I was at Tassajara on and off from the late 60s through the 70s, through the 80s.

[03:30]

So it's quite amazing to see someone mature whom you knew in her early student days. They're saying that about me too, you know. I heard that someone said about Natalie Goldberg who had known her only as a student in the early days in Minneapolis. Isn't it amazing how Natalie has matured and is now teaching the Dharma. She's quite an effective speaker on behalf of the Dharma. I'm very moved by her workshops and her writings. She's Katagiri Roshi's PA system in the world. Even though he is quoted in David's book as saying he felt he had failed, according to some

[04:34]

notion of what he might have accomplished in the Middle West, he thought he had failed, that those of us, or some part of him, some part of him knew better, but some part of him, I think, maybe didn't feel satisfied, didn't know what was happening. So, according to some ideas we have, You know, we think of failure and success, and we don't really know what the consequences of our activities are, the effects of our actions, speech, our presence in the world. We actually don't know. So, anyway, Jane came out with this beautiful poem, which I want to read to you. In the book was a story about dragons.

[05:38]

How much time do I have? Ron is the timekeeper. Who chooses? Within this tree, another tree inhabits the same body. This stone, another stone, rests, its many shades of grey, the same, its identical surface and weight. And within my body, another body, whose history, waiting, sings, There is no other body, it sings. There is no other world.

[06:43]

Within this tree, another tree inhabits the same body. Within this stone, Another stone rests, its many shades of grey the same, its identical surface and weight. And within my body, another body, whose history, waiting, sings. There is no other body. It sings. There is no other world. So that's our koan. And in a footnote to this collection of poetry, and Jane has won many awards now,

[08:04]

and is recognized as a workshop teacher, a reader, an editor, translator. She's quite accomplished. In the footnotes to her book, there's a story of the Dragon Gate. The story comes from Dogen's collection of late night talks, which were recorded by his disciple, Eijo. collection, the Zui-Mong-Ki. So the story of the Dragon Gate is that deep in the ocean, there's a dragon gate. And when fish pass through the gate, they become dragons. However, they still look like fish. They have the same scales. They swim like fish.

[09:08]

They don't know. They still think they're fish. But they've become dragons. So where is this dragon gate? What is it to be a dragon? You know, there's a story of the man who loved dragons, and I don't know how many of these stories you know here, or whether Mel tells them to you. There's a story of the man who loved dragons, and he carved dragons, and he painted dragons, and he stitched dragons, he sculpted dragons. He just had collections of dragons all over his house. Mostly his house was a studio devoted to creating images of dragons.

[10:14]

And then the big dragon in the sky looked down and said, here's somebody who must love dragons. There are all these imitation dragons, these copies of dragons. I'll go down and pay a visit. So he came down to the door of this person and knocked on the door. And when the man opened the door and saw the true dragon, he fainted. The true dragon... Now when I told this story in Monterey, they didn't understand how to understand the dragon, In the west, the dragon represents maybe monster or darkness or destructive forces, evil. In the east, the dragon represents maybe non-dualistic reality, wholeness, maybe naked reality.

[11:30]

Also, a dragon represents potency, power of transformation, very positive symbol. So dragon, dragon representing ultimate reality absolute reality, things as they are, came down to meet the man who was painting, making imitation dragons. And he wasn't ready. Come back later. I think I'll go unconscious. So this is our human life. And I asked folks, and I ask you, what is it when we become a dragon?

[12:45]

What is it to be a dragon? We look the same, we swim the same, we burp the same, what a fish did, whatever, just do funny things. But we've become a dragon. What's that shift that's imperceptible? Do dragons recognize each other? My understanding There are probably many understandings. Dragon. My understanding is that when we recognize that we are the path itself, is when we become dragon.

[13:56]

Path is no longer outside of us. We are no longer seeking elsewhere. we're no longer looking for a better moment or a calmer moment, a less ambivalent moment. Just this state of mind, this confusion, this fear, this ambivalence, this arrogance, this joy, this ease, this anger, this irritation, whatever arises is the path and is naked reality. Naked reality is not outside this moment. And we have made that turn that Dogen talks about in the Fukan Zazengi, we make the

[15:05]

take the backward step that turns our light inward, we actually have stopped running away from water rises. We actually stop. As long as we're running away and are being chased by our energy, our negative energy, our fear, shame, our anger, whatever, all that energy, desire for bliss, lust for enlightenment. As long as we're being chased by something, and please notice if you have a sense that there's some urgency inside, there's something pushing you, or are you just here, no place to go? It's really okay just to sit here. As long as we're being chased by some energy that we are trying to avoid, that energy is very powerful in our lives, very solid, very active and real for us.

[16:25]

And the backward step is simply to stop and look at and receive and experience whatever is arising. It's a very simple step and it's very hard to do because we are so conditioned to avoid these feelings of despair or shame or heaviness. We're not acceptable because we have some idea that we should be a success or be different or better. So the backward step is to actually stop and breathe in your shame. Breathe in your anger. Breathe in that negative energy of maybe blame that you are directing outward.

[17:33]

What? It's quite amazing when we stop and stand still for that energy that has been chasing us, or we have been running from. Suddenly that energy is manageable. It doesn't knock us over. It's not bigger than we are. We're afraid that there's this big monster that's going to wipe us out. But if we just stop and breathe, breathe it in and breathe it out, we actually find we're much bigger, much stronger, much steadier than we actually thought. So what you do So next time something really ugly comes along.

[18:40]

Let's take blame. I've been working with blame lately. Blame is, you know, one of the precepts, I think the precept says, what's the sixth precept is the disciple of the Buddha does not slander, does not praise self at the expense of others, something like that. We've also been modifying the precepts a little bit. We're making them better. When I do wedding ceremonies now, I invite people to think through how they want to say the precepts. And it's really important. They really make them their own. But I think Covencino, Roshi says, praise, no blame, something like that. This phenomenon of blame, deep, deep issue for us, is a way of externalizing and separating ourselves from what's happening.

[19:50]

It's his fault. This is really subtle in deepness, even though on the surface you might know Well, I probably had something to do with it, the whole situation had some complications and it was pretty complicated, causes and conditions, all kinds of things like that. But still there's some habitual energy of negative stuff. As long as we're doing that, either overtly or subtly, we're not seeing the whole situation. That energy of blame, accusing, negative stuff, negative energy aimed at somebody, obscures us from seeing the totality of the situation in which everyone has his part. Which every element, circumstances, timing, the space,

[20:59]

moment, the moment before, all the moments before leading up to it, all the people interacting, all the intentions, all the thoughts, all the aspirations of everybody, the perceptions, misperceptions, miscommunication, building on building on building, because we don't see how much a part of some large scenario or drama or play that we're a part of, when we finally sit down and talk, once the thing has escalated and we're not having very much fun with the blame anymore and we've got to do something about it, we actually meet the heart of the other person. In a Zen community, our Bodhisattva vow has to do with not abandoning anybody.

[22:05]

So our vow is to hang in there with each other in the confidence that others will hang in with us. And when our funny stuff and ego stuff and selfishness blinds us to how we are harming each other, that we will sit down and talk and share our perceptions, our delusions, our confusion. One of the most valuable parts of practice is to sit and share your delusions with somebody that you're having an argument with. having a hard time. It's a very vulnerable moment because you just say, well, this is what I saw, this is what I felt.

[23:12]

And we don't like to be that vulnerable and say, this is what I felt. This is what I thought. This is what I wanted. This is what I hoped. We don't want to be that vulnerable. But it helps us to drop, to do that and to meet somebody, I'm calling that on the path of becoming a dragon, is meeting somebody with that kind of confession of our own delusions as a preliminary What is it? Provisional reality. That level of reality as a way of not being so attached to our perspective, our needs, our desires, our feelings.

[24:17]

Not saying they're not there, that they're not real in the conventional sense. They're not active in the world. We act on the basis of them. We hurt on the basis of them. We spend enormous energy figuring out how to get around each other, how to improve each other, how to talk to each other, how to avoid each other. You know how much energy it takes to avoid somebody? how much energy it takes to avoid having a conversation, one of these conversations, but when it happens, some of the stuff that's protecting the self actually releases, relaxes.

[25:20]

And the first step is noticing the power of the energy in you, noticing the power of blame, noticing how corrosive that is, and how it's obscuring your relationship with someone. Why are you unhappy? Because 99.9% of what you think And everything you do is for yourself. And there isn't one. This is Wu Wei Wu. Wu Wei Wu. Wu Wei Wu. W-O-O W-U-W-E-I-W-U Why are you unhappy?

[26:36]

Because 99.9% of what you think and everything you do is for yourself. And there isn't one. And what happens when we sit and meet our Dharma brother or sister? or our parent, our child, our sibling, our mate, is we suddenly see the heart of the other person, which has been obscured by this energy of blame and rejection. When we meet the heart of the other person, there's no problem, really. And it also shows us our own heart. Some of this, a good deal of this, is the difficulty in meeting our own heart. Now I think this is so important that I'm going to continue talking about it.

[27:52]

Even though somebody down in Monterey again said, Why don't you ever talk about samadhi?" I think I talk about samadhi all the time in the context of talking about this. Because for me, the release of not running anymore, of actually having the stomach, I think of it as having the stomach and the heart to stand and breathe in your pain, your yucky, we're talking about breathing in yucky feelings here, we almost don't have names for them, and exhaling them is the gift of practice.

[28:55]

This is actually a breathing practice, practice of inhalation and exhalation. And you know, the Zen tradition doesn't have a lot of steps and stages. The Zen tradition says, please be a dragon. Or please notice you're a dragon. Yes. Please, please notice. Please notice that you don't notice that you're a dragon. And anyone who's sitting in this seat and sees people sitting Zazen, can see the dragon in everyone, and can see that who you think is sitting Zazen is not who's sitting Zazen. I don't know if that's well said, but it's not you who's sitting Zazen, and yet the one who's sitting is not separate from you.

[29:57]

So when he sits us in, we learn how to inhale and exhale. And this end tradition that I inherited taught to drop stuff, whatever comes up in a negative way and in a positive way, just drop it. But in this culture and in this country we don't really have a context for understanding how to just drop stuff because a lot of it is still there even though in the moment or in Zazen we can breathe it through and experience the state of mind of coming and going, the state of mind of non-attachment, the state of mind of not sticking to things, sticking to thoughts.

[31:09]

That's a kind of samadhi, the state of mind that's just coming and going, inhaling and exhaling. It's being part of the universe, it's being part of the world, being part of a sunny day and then clouds come by and then hail comes down and there's a storm. The sense of self thinks it's outside those natural processes of changes of weather, changes of energy, changes of mood, changes of muscle tension. I don't know about how it is for men, but for me, when the full moon, when it's full moon, my breathing changes. I hope, I saw Zen shifts, changes according to the lunar cycle.

[32:14]

So, we turn, because Zen just says, please notice you're a dragon, and you notice that you don't think you're a dragon. Some of the other traditions that are now on this continent offer intermediate steps. intermediate practices so that you can do some of the work of wrestling with this self that's so important and so we're so attached and one of them I use Vipassana practices and I use some Tibetan practices In Pema Chodron's new book, Start Where You Are, early on she has a section on Tonglen practice, which I have not done officially, so I'm not really qualified to talk about it, but when I noticed what I was doing with my own negative energies, I realized this is Tonglen practice.

[33:35]

They have systematized it a bit. Tonglen practice is, you know to stop. First you breathe deeply. And then you notice the energy of being stuck in negative emotions. The energy of fixation, of neurosis. The energy of attachment to ego. And you inhale that black, dark, heavy energy. So this is good to do when you're in some difficulty and caught up with some negative stuff, having a fight with somebody, feeling embarrassed, humiliated, ashamed, fearful, depressed, whatever. That side of life. So you

[34:37]

Actually, you practice the Zen practice of being one with whatever arises. When you stop running, you actually stop and you breathe in the texture, the feeling, the energy of being stuck, of hurting. And you feel it. And then you exhale relief. You exhale, in their language, cool, white, calm. Inhale heavy, dark, black. Exhale cool, white, light. In my experience, that's what happens. When you actually stop running and you breathe in your stuff, there's actually some letting go.

[35:43]

It's like you survived the storm. You actually lived through the most horrible thing you can imagine. You actually lived through it. And there's a letting go, a release from that. So, in their tradition, it's a practice where you synchronize the inhalation and the exhalation. So you're not breathing out black and dark and heavy, you're not breathing out shame or anger or irritation on the world. You're breathing, you're letting go. Breathing your release, your relaxation. And the second step is that you make it very concrete, that you, whatever personal experience is arising for you, pain, anger, fear, you breathe that in, the experience of that, thoughts and feelings and energy of that, and you know it.

[36:53]

And then you exhale calmness, light, cool, And you do that for some time. And the final stage is that you realize that the pain you are taking in and experiencing in your body and mind is everybody's suffering. That what you're experiencing is universal pain, universal suffering, universal greed, hate, and delusion. and you exhale calmness, light. Now, I think this is an interesting practice. In my own experience, I found that as soon as I stood still and experienced my heavy, dark feelings and the thought, and it's like there's some place inside that

[38:06]

don't want to go to, and that's the place you want to touch. Almost as soon as you do that, and absorb it, and let it go, and release, you realize through that that you are connected with everyone. Knowing your own despair, pain that deeply, there's It just happens that you know it's everyone's. You know it's not isolated in you. It's a wonderful compassion practice, wonderful practice of interconnectedness. Here's a poem by David White.

[39:17]

Enough. Enough. These few words are enough. If not these words, this breath. If not this breath, this sitting here. This opening to the life we have refused, again and again, until now. Until now. Enough. These few words are enough. If not these words, this breath. If not this breath, this sitting here, this opening to the life we have refused again and again until now, until now.

[40:41]

This is the practice of learning to be a dragon. And you won't recognize it when you become a dragon. There's a dragon gate down in the ocean. But you will be standing on your own two feet and inhabiting your own heart and stomach and jaw neck and shoulders, and you will have a confidence in your life that is hard to come by, but is available to us. Just sitting, it's called just I don't know if we have, yeah, any questions?

[41:57]

You were talking about hanging in there, people when we have difficulty, and trying to communicate in an open-hearted way, all of those... All those good things. Wonderful things. What about situations where some real abuse is happening. I mean, I have found myself in situations where, as I perceive it or interpret it, sort of trying to hang in there and being motivated by the kinds of things that you describe and not stopping or kind of halting a situation where some real harm was happening. Well, I don't think this is a practice of stupidity. I think it's a clear seeing.

[43:00]

We're talking about clear seeing. And if you see the person's not ready, or the situation's not ready, and with your best efforts, you're somehow not being received, or you're not really able to meet this person or be met, I think maybe wisdom is to back off and to try again. So much of this is a moment of readiness, is the time when even we can do it. This is hard work. So sometimes the wisdom is to stay there and not to keep pushing, and not to keep trying. Do you see that as a form of not abandoning people? Well, it's a form of being with people where they are. Otherwise, we're trying to convert everybody to being dragons with us.

[44:03]

And somebody told me the other day, we were looking at some phenomenon together, and he said, I have to confess, there's resistance. There's some resistance inside. Well, I don't know if he's going to be ready to look at that resistance. And so, I have to decide what kind of a holding pattern to get into with this person. Now, that's a matter of judgment, and experience, and confidence, or fear, or all of that stuff. And sometimes we have Bert on the side waiting too long. I was talking to a psychologist yesterday who feels like Zen centers can be very comfortable places, and we wait and we wait and we wait for people to mature and ripen and be ready, and meanwhile everybody's settling in for life, you know, and that in some ways that may not be so helpful, that a kind of

[45:14]

more, I don't know how to describe it, but moving in. And I've been part of that. I don't know if that's what we call that compassion, where you wait and you wait and you really don't have confidence that the person can hear a straight message, which may be deluded, but that's your gift, your delusion. And when you put it out as your delusion, no problem. This is my delusion, this is how it looked to me, and that's what I'm offering you, please give me yours, and we all know it's empty. We all know that this is just from this point of view and this attachment to my way and my needs and my... See, it's all just moving, none of this is solid, and only by not entering it we make it solid, by closing it off. it becomes fixed for us, fixed in our minds.

[46:20]

Thank you. Just like you are way off to the side, and I notice that for me to look at you, it's hard. And I notice that I didn't look at you so much. I don't want to cause you any pain. Pardon me? I don't want to cause you any undue pain. But some things are off to the side, and we don't turn and look at them, and what's right in front is easier to look at. It's interesting. Or we put things off to the side. Yes? Is there a male dragon and a female dragon? Well, you know, I can see... Oh, there's probably all of that. In heart and mind. Excuse me? In heart and mind. Now, what do you mean by that question? You talked about that your zazen changes when the moon changes. Is there a difference in how you see men and women coming to now?

[47:30]

rather differently. And so we have different expectations. And some of what I'm talking about, sometimes women find it easier to hear, because I'm talking about body. And sometimes men don't know what I'm talking about. But other than that history or conditioning, I don't see any difference. You know, I don't think we've been at this long enough in this country to know what the true dragon, the true American dragon, may look like. The true female dragon, the true male dragon. I don't know if I'm speaking to your question. Well, it just sounds like there's no answer for a moment. No way. I think there isn't.

[48:55]

There's no answer, and that's the answer. I think each of us has to be true to our own experience, and women have to stop being... Maybe they aren't doing it as much now, but when I started, we were trying to be as good as the men. And I practiced for years, not noticing any difference between men and women. And now, I notice my own way. So that was a big turning for me, to notice my own way of practicing, meeting all of these vulnerabilities. All of this stuff inside is my way, not as my failure to be the way. And also talking, how to talk, how to teach, how to be with people. My way is different from the male teachers that I practiced under. So I think there's a big shift going on. And I think it will continue to go on for quite a while.

[49:58]

It's getting to be time. It's getting to be time. It was always time. Is there time for one more question? It's up to you. One more question. Do you think that the Western dragon and the Eastern dragon are the same? I guess our attitude is different than the East? Sure, I think reality is reality. Listen, the dragon's a reality, or we describe it. But the dragon in European and you said that it's kind of a monstrous kind of thing. That's right. I looked at an encyclopedia of symbols, and there's a page and a half about dragons, and it talks about how they are used in mythology and philosophy in the East and how in the West, and they're quite different.

[51:21]

One is negative, destructive, death. The other one is life-giving, life-affirming, life-revealing, manifesting growth. So, I'm not sure I understand you. transforming energy, and that this same dragon that's in the East has been in the West, but we just look at it as a negative thing. Like we've done the same thing... Hold on a minute. The dragon is just an image, or a symbol, of absolute reality, or things as they are. Things as they are are formless. Things as they are do not have fixed shape. And in all cultures, we project onto experience what we see, our own perceptions, feelings, thoughts, sensations.

[52:28]

So we have negative projections, and we have positive projections, and the East does the same. So let's not get lost just in the notion of the dragon, although it epitomizes, it was used in this story because of what the dragon means in Eastern, I don't know, poetry, philosophy, mythology. Okay? Thank you for your attention.

[53:04]

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