Good afternoon. I think tomorrow we just do the chant in the morning because the afternoon is a continuation. So please take a relaxed position if you like. But I want to ask you not to lean against the wall. You can sit in a chair, fine. So, given the length of this Tenzo Kyokun, I, some time ago, divided it into seven parts. And we did the first two this morning, which I had hoped that we would. which gives us more time for the rest.

[01:01]

And I would like to have more discussion this afternoon. This morning was more of a lecture, and this afternoon will be kind of a lecture with my commentary, but I also want you to, if you find as I'm talking that you want to ask a question, that's fine. And so sometime I may stop and ask you to say something. So let's not just treat it as a lecture, but as a discussion, but I'm going to talk first for a while to get us going. One of the problems with having discussion is that it makes it more difficult to get all the way through.

[02:10]

know how much discussion and how much not. So if we pay attention to our intuition and put that in our computer, it'll all work out. So the third part, the next part, Dogen says, strengthen your resolve and devote your life spirit to surpassing the refinement of the ancient ancestors and being even more meticulous than those who came before you. I don't like the translation meticulous. It sounds meticulous, but I think it's, even more attentive or careful or, yeah.

[03:15]

Yeah, well, you know, your translation is a reworking of the old translation, so that this book came out later than mine, but all my notes are in my book. So when you run across something different, you should say what it is. So what does it say? You should devote your life to the refinement of the ancient patriarchs. Yeah, that's what I said. Even more ridiculous than those that came before you. It has something like careful attention feeling. Because meticulous can have the feeling of fussiness, being fussy over details.

[04:30]

So how do you apply our life aspiration so that it will function for the way? If great teachers in the past were able to make a plain soup from greens for only a pittance, we must try to make a fine soup for the same amount. This is very difficult to do. Among other things, there are great differences between ages past and today. So even hoping to stand alongside the teachers of former times is no simple matter. Yet being scrupulous, I think attentive is better. Being attentive in our actions and pouring our energy into those actions, there is no reason why we can't equal the ancient masters. So we must aspire to the highest of ideals without becoming arrogant in our manner. I would say, to aspire to the highest ideals yet to remain humble in our manner.

[05:36]

That's like the positive rather than the negative. So he's talking about attention to detail and he is always upholding the old masters as ideal and as models. And he's also saying, although we can't match them, we can. So it's like that. But it's interesting, you know, when we think about ages past, Dogen also says, those in the past were just like us. So, there's no reason why we can't do what the ancients did. They were just people, and they weren't nine feet tall. Yeah, I think that's good, that's right.

[06:39]

Since it was the age of Mapo, the age of decline of the Dharma, supposedly. Yeah, that's a good point. And so he says, these things are truly just a matter of course, yet we remain unclear about them because our minds go racing about like horses running wild in the fields, while our emotions remain unmanageable, like monkeys swinging in the trees. Now think about that. Our minds do go racing around like horses and our emotions do swing around like monkeys swinging in the trees. If only we could step back, would step back to carefully reflect on the horses and the donkey, monkey,

[07:42]

our lives would naturally become one with our work. Doing so is the means whereby we turn things even while simultaneously we are being turned by them." So this is a very, no pun intended, pivotal statement. Turning and being turned, to me that's the essence of practice. is how you are turned by the practice and how you turn the practice. So one aspect is, he also uses this term in another fascicle where he says when you are being turned When you are turning, you are in the dominant position and the dharma is in the, I'm sorry to say weaker, but receptive.

[08:57]

And when you are being turned, the dharma is in the dominant position and you are in the receptive. So you have to, it includes both sides. We let the practice turn us, this is called following, but we also turn the practice, this is called leading. There's also the image of locomotives and boxcars. Locomotives pull, the boxcars follow. So, are you an engine or a boxcar? Are you creating the practice or simply following the practice? Well, yeah, the practice, you know, an example would be, there is some place called the Zen Center.

[10:04]

go through the gate and I go in the door and I sit Zazen in somebody's Zen center, in somebody's practice, and then I go away. That's being turned. But if you enter the practice and you take up a position and you drive the practice through your effort, then you're actually creating the practice. So you appear and you follow along, but you also are driving the practice. So there's nobody driving the practice except you, but we think it's them. So when you realize that it's you as well as everyone else, it makes things work. then you're turning and being turned.

[11:11]

So you're active when you feel that this is my practice and I am making things work. for everybody, including myself. When we're totally free of getting something from the practice or helping someone else, but simply doing the practice for the practice, that's turning and being turned. Then you're helped and others are helped. And Dogen actually talks about that a little bit later. It's a very pivotal thing.

[12:19]

It's easy to feel like you're outside and you're participating in something that belongs to somebody else. But when you own the practice by making things move, not making things move, but by practicing in a positive way. And the interaction is your practice. It takes both, yeah. Well, you have to trust that the leadership of the practice recognizes

[13:26]

who you are, and then we wait to be asked to do something. So if you are really good at something, this is one of the problems, you know, when we were starting Tassajara, there were people who were carpenters and had ability to do things, and so instead of giving them or things to do which they were not good at, they were not expert at, it hindered their practice because we let them do what they did well. And so they missed a big part of going through the process of being nobody, taking away your propensity. As long as you're allowed to use your propensities, then you're somebody. So, you know, better to let the monastery fall apart than to let everybody just exercise their skills and they miss the practice of letting go of who they are.

[15:05]

So that's kind of a problem. That's why we don't put the French chef in the kitchen. because he loves me, the French chef. So, you know, letting go of, it's not that expertise is bad or wrong or something, that's really good, you know, but you have to set that aside while you practice, and then when you come to a certain stage of understanding, then it's given back to you. Like when you go to Tassajara, we take your art away, we take your music away, we take your poetry away, we take all those things that you like and depend on away. And then when you become mature, you get them back. If you go to Eheji, they take your shoes and you don't see them until you leave.

[16:10]

So talented people and strong-minded people, it's always a problem. It's always a problem. But we work with those problems. So it's great to have talented people and strong-minded people and so forth. They make big Buddhas. But it's always a process of difficulty. And then they complain about the teacher. He doesn't understand me. So we have to understand ourselves. So he says, if only we would step back to carefully reflect on the horse and the monkey, our lives would naturally become one with our work. Doing so is the means whereby we turn things. even while simultaneously we are being turned by them.

[17:21]

So to step back and carefully reflect on our monkey mind and our horse mind and our monkey emotions and let ourselves be turned. So we have to let ourselves be turned. Someone else tells us what to do. But then we can also tell someone else what to do. But it's not like bossing people around. It's like when we let go of authority, authority is given to us. That's the way it works. The fastest way to progress in a sense of having authority is to totally let go of trying to get it. And if you get it, without doing that, you suffer a lot.

[18:26]

Well, you know, probably so. Like, if you have ability and you just do what is asked of you, you advance. You know, if I'm the tenzo, I'm working in the kitchen, and someone says to me, I'll say to somebody, I would like you to cut these carrots and these vegetables. And they say, well, how would you like me to do that? And I say, well, here's a person I can work with. If the person says, I know how to do this. I've done it a thousand times. This is a person that's really hard to work with. This is really important. How would you like me to do it?

[19:38]

I mean, you're letting go of your expertise or whatever you know, and you're simply putting yourself under control of someone else, which gives you perfect control. Because you're submitting yourself, you have control. When you're fighting for control, you don't have control. That's actually when you're out of control. Suzuki Roshi once gave a talk where he talked about what to do and should do. You people do what you want to do, what you want to do, but not so much what you should do.

[20:45]

He says when should do and want to do is exactly the same, that's perfect. When what you should do is what you want to do, and what you want to do is what you should do, that's perfect, no problem. But because we have this fight between want to and should do, this kind of tension, it causes a lot of problems. So he says, it is vital that we clarify and harmonize our lives with our work and not lose sight of either the absolute or the practical. Note not to fall into one side or another of the And this is the meaning of turning over the rice basket, not falling into one side or the other.

[21:56]

Yes? We never got any further. Well, sometimes you do something... Maybe I would say, how can you not tell? Can I give a specific example? So, sometimes a very dedicated student will sit with us and their body will start hurting and some people will sit

[23:14]

And think, well, I should stay sitting. And they sit. And I know people who've injured themselves permanently that way. Really, they shouldn't have been sitting there. So how do you sort through that? Well, you know, when you say, don't move, it doesn't mean you shouldn't move. So you should know that. So it's really up to each person to decide for themselves.

[24:16]

Most of our problems in that realm are caused by resistance. And if you know yourself well, then you know when to move and when not to move. But I have to say that it's a, I don't know, a risk, a risk that you take. I wouldn't say push yourself. If you find that you're pushing yourself, that's not good. But if you find that you're letting go,

[25:22]

then you can work with that. So as soon as you realize, I'm pushing myself, I'm pushing myself, I'm trying to get it, it's better probably to let go. But when you get to that point, changing is not so good for you because you're stuck in that place. The whole thing is about how you let go, how you open up and not fight and simply allow. And when you can do that well, you find that things really open up for you. So that's the point. So we have to get to that point. And that's the difficulty, you know, in the process. So he says, handle even a single leaf of a green in such a way that it manifests the body of the Buddha.

[26:29]

This in turn allows the Buddha to manifest through the leaf. That's really a nice statement. This is a power which you cannot grasp with your rational mind. It operates freely according to the situation in a more natural way. At the same time, this power functions in our lives to clarify and settle activities and is beneficial to all living things." So this is a kind of intuition, intuitive understanding, the power you can't grasp with your rational mind, and it operates freely according to the situation. When you let go, it works. You know, I also like to think that the universe meets you halfway. When you sincerely are opening to the universe, then the universe meets you.

[27:37]

Yeah, Andrew? You're very consistent in telling us that even in our delusion, there's enlightenment. We talk about the dharma turning us or us turning the dharma. It sounds like something is outside of ourselves. But actually, I'm wondering if this last passage doesn't point to the reality that it's our awareness that we're part of a codependently arising energy or force. And if we're open to that, then the way is there before us. Oh, yeah, well, that's what we've been talking about. I saw it. It's about codependence. It's about the right kind of codependency. that being turning and being turned is like codependency, but not something outside of ourselves.

[29:00]

It's co-operating. And that's happening all the time, whether or not we're being egotistical about how we do things, or whether we're going along with things. Well, to a certain extent, but not really. If that were the case, then we wouldn't worry about being egotistical. Being egotistical is not the same as turning and being turned. It's letting go of ego, so that the whole thing turns on Buddha rather than on ego. Turning and being turned the fulcrum or the axis upon which that turns is Buddha, not ego. Well, you know, things turn each other in various ways.

[30:22]

But I think this is talking about a specific, he's talking about something very specific, he's talking about practice, conscious practice. Yeah, so we're gonna take a break, not a break, but stand up or whatever you want to do for about one minute every half hour. So Andrea, can you give me an example of what you're talking about? Let me think about this more and see if I can't be clearer in my question. Okay. Thank you very much. Okay. Excuse me. Can I follow up on that? Yeah. repaint an illusion happening.

[31:37]

So is that, you know, so how, what do you call that? I mean, I know we don't have like an origination of that, but what is that word that comes from? I mean. Well, this is the, oh, I can think of a lot of different things to say. This is the problem of Adam and Eve. And their problem is that they fell into When they ate the apple, that was the apple of the knowledge of good and evil, which is called discriminating mind.

[32:39]

Before that, it was nirvana. So they fell out of nirvana, and they fell into discriminating mind, and we're the inheritors of all that. So we have to get back to nirvana by putting Humpty Dumpty back together. So, you know, human beings are an evolving species. And because of this involvement, we have this ego, this sense of separation. Ego is a sense of separation. And without going into the various levels of consciousness, our thinking mind is both a blessing and a curse.

[33:46]

So thinking mind gives us some kind of domain and but it also, because of its propensity for delusion, causes a lot of problems. So what Dogen is talking about is actually getting beyond our thinking mind's domination. And the intuition is called directly, it means directly touching something without the intermediary of having to go through the trapdoor of our mind, or the snares of our mind, or our thinking mind.

[34:49]

So turning and being turned means allowing yourself to flow with things. allowing yourself to flow and allowing yourself to flow with things and allowing things to flow with you. That's really what it means. And when that happens, thinking mind takes its rightful place without being deluded. Because thinking mind tends to dominate. People are turning and being turned in Iraq, but it's not nice. It's not the same as what we're talking about. Everything is turning something, something being turned.

[35:57]

Everything is being turned by something or turning something, and there are all these vortexes. Every one of us has a center and a vortex. As we turn, we create energy, and that energy creates attraction or repulsion. So there are strong energy centers with strong vortexes, and we get drawn into them. is called sometimes seduction or induction, and there's also repulsion. So, seduction and repulsion are two very strong forces that turn each other, but it's not the same thing as what Dogen's talking about. He's talking about flowing with in a way that's free from self-centeredness. which creates a peaceful atmosphere and a harmonious atmosphere.

[37:07]

Would an analogy be having a dance with a partner? Yes, it's how you dance with something, exactly. How you dance. So that's what we do. When you're working in the kitchen, with five or six other people, it's a day-long dance. And if you see it that way, you can enjoy it. If you see it as bumper cars, that can also be enjoyable, right? But not all day. And so then he says you should count the number of people. After all the preparations for the meal are complete, clean up thoroughly, putting everything back where it ought to be.

[38:09]

When the drum sounds and the bell rings, both morning and evening, be sure not to miss Zazen, nor going to see the master to receive his teaching. So even though you're doing all this work, You still have to do Dazen. You still have to have Dogasan to test your understanding, help with your understanding. So when you return to your room, shut your eyes. He's talking about the Tenzo. Shut your eyes and count the number of people in the Sodo. Do not forget the elder priests, the retired monks, plus those living in single rooms, including those in the infirmary or elderly people. And in addition to these, any monks who are on leave and others who may not have just arrived but are not yet living fully within the community should be taken into account. Finally, those living in any of the sub-temples within the complex must be added. If there are any doubts, check with the heads of the office or those in charge of the various residences where people might be staying.

[39:11]

Well, that's a really big job. And some of those monasteries in China at that time had 1,000 or 2,000 monks. So you cannot expect Tenzo to be watching over the cooking and counting all the people at the same time. He's kind of telescoping things together here. I think he's idealizing what should happen. And all those people have to be counted And then when you make the meal, there shouldn't be anything left over. It should come out just right, which is impossible. But that's what one should aspire toward. It's not like it's gonna come out right, but when you have that aspiration, then you keep working toward that and keep refining the way you do things. So when you know the exact number in the community, then calculate the amount of food to be cooked.

[40:18]

For every grain of rice to be eaten, supply one grain. And this is your mathematics. In dividing one grain, the result may be two half grains, or possibly three or four. That makes sense. On the other hand, one grain might equal a half a grain, or perhaps two half grains. then again, two half grains might be counted as one whole grain. You must be able to see clearly how much of a surplus will be created if you add one unit of rice, or whether there will be enough if you take away one unit. Hmm. I make these notes but they're so small I can hardly read them. Oh, I see.

[41:22]

This applies to the next paragraph. When you eat a grain of Lu Ling rice, you may become the monk Guishan. When you add a grain, you may become the cow. sometimes the cow eats Guishan, and sometimes Guishan pastures the cow. Now you, without, unless you're very brilliant, you don't understand what that means. Unless you've studied that saying. Guishan, it was Japanese, they say Isan, and Guishan and Yangshan, together developed the Guiyang school of Zen, one of the five schools of Zen. And these two were always talking to each other, and their recorded sayings are somewhere. And Guishan developed a method of teaching in which he had 95 circles, and he used these circles

[42:38]

to talk about various facets of Zen understanding and teaching. And he also used cows, water buffalo probably, to say, he said like, there's a cow inside of a circle eating patient's grass. That's one. And then there are two cows outside of a circle doing something, and there's a cow on the top of the circle, and each one of those he uses to illustrate some aspect. So that's the basis, actually, of this little saying. And the whole thing goes like this. One day, Guishan said, A hundred years after my death, I will be reborn as a cow to a parishioner on a mountain.

[43:46]

On the flank of this cow will be written, I am Guishan. If you say that the cow is me, you will be wrong because it is just a cow. And if you say it is just a cow, you will be wrong because it will be me. So what should you call it? That's the koan, Guishan's koan. So it needs some elucidation. But before that, the first sentence, it says, when you eat a grain of Lu Ling rice, you may become the monk Guishan. Lu Ling rice, if you want to know about that, Seigen Gyoshi, What is Buddhadharma?

[44:48]

Someone asked Seigen Yoshi, what is Buddhadharma? And Seigen said, what is the price of looling rice? That's a very famous saying. What is the price of looling rice? Lingling rice here has the meaning of Buddha nature. See, these people are not talking in the usual sense. Whenever they're talking, it means something. It refers to something besides just the phenomenal, their literal meaning. So this monk asked, what is Buddhadharma? And Goenchan said, what is the price of looling rice? So he's using looling rice to mean Buddhadharma.

[45:51]

What is the price of this? So there's value and virtue. In some sense, the monk is asking, What is the value of Buddhadharma? And he's saying it's like ruling rice, which means he's going beyond its value to its virtue. Virtue is different than value because value is comparative. So he's saying it's beyond anything that you can compare. I think it had some special quality, yeah. It was from a certain area where they grow good rice. Yeah. And maybe the price fluctuated depending because it was what's the current price?

[47:01]

That's right, what's the current price, yeah. So if we look at Guishan's cow, that's really interesting. If you think, I'll read it again. One day Guishan said, a hundred years after my death, I will be reborn as a cow to a parishioner on this mountain. On the flank of the cow will be written, I am Guishan. If you say that the cow is me, you will be wrong, because it is just a cow. And if you say it is just a cow, you will be wrong, because it will be me. So what should you call it? So are we going to cut the cow in two, or are we going to cut the cow in one, as Dogen says? Cut the cat in one.

[48:02]

So a cow, the cow is like activity. Guishan is like zazen, or stillness. You may wonder where all this comes from. There's a saying, the cow eats Guishan, and Guishan pastures the cow. The cow eats Guishan means daily activity. And Guishan pastures the cow is like Zazen. So the cow eats Guishan. Eating is an activity. The cow devours Guishan. So the cow is mundane activity.

[49:08]

Guishan pastures the cow, because Guishan is the cow. Guishan is both Guishan and the cow. So it's like Guishan is coming 100 years after his death, right? So he's like, Guishan is Buddha nature. And the cow is like phenomena, phenomenal thing. So he's saying, well, what is our self? What am I? What is Guishan? And what is this cow? They're not two different things. And yet they are two different things. So he's saying, I appear. Guishan and the cow appear as one thing, but if you say it's one thing, then you're missing the two things. And if you say it's two things, then you're missing the one thing.

[50:13]

Well, yes. The cow eating Guishan is like stillness within activity. In other words, the whale eating Noah. Within our activity is zazen, is stillness. And Guishan pasturing the cow is like putting the cow activity within stillness.

[51:35]

That's kind of the gist of what he's talking about. So we could go on about this, but Dogen says, when you eat a grain of luling rice, you may become the monk Guishan. When you add a grain, you may become the cow. Sometimes the cow eats Guishan and sometimes Guishan pastures the cow. So that's what Dogen's talking about. The cow eats Guishan is stillness within total activity. And Guishan pastures the cow is dynamic activity within stillness. And these are two aspects of turning and being turned. So he says, consider whether you have thoroughly understood these matters and are able to make these calculations.

[52:59]

Go back over again and again when you have understood these details and be prepared to explain them to others according to their capacity to understand. Use ingenuity in your practice. See the cow and Guishan as one, not as two, even though temporarily they appear that way. In your day-to-day life, do not forget this even for a moment. So here he's talking about practice and realization. Practice and realization can seem like two, but they're one. But sometimes they seem like two, even though they're always one. So see the cow and Guishan as one, not as two, even though temporarily they appear that way. We talk about realization independently of practice. We talk about practice independently of realization, but actually they're one, even though sometimes they appear as two.

[54:03]

So we should never forget that practice is realization, and within realization is practice. Cow eats Guishan, Guishan pastures the cow. So, if you're practicing, you're manifesting enlightenment, even though you don't know it, which means you are not having realization. So, the realization is a cognition, it's a cognitive thing. Now, I'm hearing you say that practicing realization… Well, that's the way it reads these terms loosely.

[55:14]

The terms are used loosely, just like it says in the book. So I'm just quoting from the book. So would you think it's more accurate, would you restate it by saying that it's enlightenment in practice, R1, and realization is just cognition? Yeah. I mean, I would lean in that direction. Yeah. So he says, if someone comes to make a monetary donation for the food, consult the other officers concerning how that money is to be used. This has been the custom of Buddhist communities down through the ages. As for other kinds of donations to the community, such as items which will be distributed among the residents, again, consult the other officers. In other words, do not infringe on the authority of other officers or make decisions outside the boundary of your responsibility.

[56:18]

I think it's important not to do somebody else's work. Say something about that? But if you see something that needs to be done in front of you, If you see something that needs to be done in front of you, you should decide whether or not that's a good thing, depending on, is this somebody else's responsibility? Sometimes it might be okay, you know, if something really needs to happen, like the water's off and everybody's waiting for water and so you turn the water on. But ordinarily, when you see that somebody's neglected something, If you save them, then it's easy for them to continue forgetting, or just be lazy, or someone else will take care of it.

[57:25]

So it's ordinarily, in a lot of cases, it's good to not rescue somebody, otherwise they will not, they may get angry at you. I was going to do that and you did it instead. And so it's time to stand up a minute. Okay, so it says, after the meal has been carefully prepared, place it on a table. and put on your robe and spread out your zagu. And facing the soto, soto is, you know, in the monastery, the soto's where the monks sleep and do everything, dance and zazen as well. Facing the soto where everyone does zazen, offer incense and bow nine times. Afterwards, carry the meal into the soto.

[58:27]

The cooks. Well, you know, this is usual. When I was at Sokoji in San Francisco, our first temple, the cook would come out and bow the way we do. And so that's why we have this unique practice. Actually, I instituted that at Zen Center, too, in Page Street, that I wanted the cooks not to bow in the kitchen, but I wanted the head cook to come up and bow in the zendo where people could see, these are the people that have been cooking your food and you should see who they are so you can appreciate them rather than, you know, mysteriously the food appears. So all day and all night the tenso has to make arrangements and prepare meals without wasting a moment.

[59:32]

If he throws all of his energy into whatever the situation truly calls for, then both the activity and the method by which he carries it out will naturally work to nurture the seeds of the Buddhadharma. Just taking care of the function of the tenso enables all the residents in the community to carry on their practice in the most stable way. This is an interesting note that I made. As far as Isan and the cow, Guishan and the cow are one, you and the community are one. The Tenzo and the community, is the Tenzo different than the community or is the Tenzo the same as the community? Is the community the same as the Tenzo?

[60:38]

Is the Tenzo the same as the community, or are they different? They are different, but actually they're the same. So when I was at Tassajara, and my teacher, when I was Shuso, was Tatsugami Roshi, and he introduced the monastic code into Tassajara, and he said, There's only one monk. This saga is just one monk. I thought that was a very interesting thing to say. And it was very striking to say that. The Tenzo and the community are one monk. There's no separation. Even though the Tenzo is the Tenzo and the community is the community. So it has been several hundred years since the Buddhadharma was introduced to Japan, yet no one has ever written about the preparation and serving of meals as an expression of Buddhadharma, nor have any teachers taught concerning these matters, much less has there been any mention of bowing nine times to offering

[61:52]

prior to offering the meal to the residents. Such a practice has never entered the minds of people in this country." He's talking about Japan in the 13th century. Here people think nothing of eating like animals, so no concern for the way they eat. What a pathetic state of affairs. It truly saddens me to see things this way. And then he says, when I was on Mount Tian Tong, a monk called Lu from Qingyuan Fu was serving as Tenzo. When we were in China, Richard was there, and Ross was there. I'm trying to think of your name. What's your name? Andrea was there. And we went to Mount Tiantong.

[63:00]

It was quite a big monastery. And so he says, when I was at Mount Tiantong, a monk called Lu from Qingyuan Fu was serving as Tenzo. One day after the noon meal, I was walking to another building within the complex when I noticed Lu drying mushrooms in the sun in front of the Butsu Den, the Buddha Hall. He carried a bamboo stick but had no hat on his head. The sun's rays beat down so harshly that the tiles along the walk burned one's feet. Lu worked hard and was covered with sweat. I could not help but feel the work was too much of a strain for him. His back was a bow drawn taut and his long eyebrows were crane white. As I approached and asked his age, he replied that he was 68. years old. Then I went on to ask him why he never used any assistance. He answered, other people are not me. You're right, I said.

[64:02]

I can see that your work is the activity of the Buddha Dharma, but why are you working so hard in this scorching sun? He replied, if I don't do it now, when else can I do it? There was nothing else for me to say. As I walked on along the passageway, I began to come to sense inwardly the true significance of the role of Tenzo. So this was his first awakening by Tenzo. He had two significant meetings with two different Tenzos when he was in China. He was looking for the right teachers, but he couldn't find them as the abbots of the monasteries. except for his teacher, Rui Jing. But these Tenzos, and he had no idea that he would be enlightened by these Tenzos, because in those days, in Japan, from where he came, there was no idea that work was part of practice.

[65:09]

But that had been definitely a part of practice in China. Buddhism came to China around the second century, first century, and all the way up to Bodhidharma's time, it had been pretty much scholarly. And then, of course, Bodhidharma introduced Zazen into China. But... And there were, in the monasteries, the monks would have tea about 12 times a day, and they had servants, which they hired to serve them tea. And they'd discuss the Dharma, or something like that. So what was lacking was actual practice, and what was also lacking was hands-on, so.

[66:10]

the Chinese people were very industrious, a little different than the Indians, because China was hot, but it was also cold, and the climate was different, and the farming was different, and all the young men participated in farming, and married all the young women to keep the race going. And when the monks started coming into the monasteries, the Chinese people, A lot of them didn't like that because they said, they're taking away our young hands and they're not marrying the women. So the monks were actually kind of encouraged to start working and they were working in the fields and the monasteries had large fields. which they hired people to work in, but the monks started doing the work in the fields themselves. And Pai Chang, you know, who actually, who these rules, the Chanyang Quingwe, is attributed to is Pai Chang.

[67:19]

And Pai Chang, when he, his famous saying, a day of no work is a day of no eating. So Pai Chang, when he was 80 years old or something, they hid his tools. and wouldn't let him go out in the field to work. So he said, a day of no work is a day of no eating. And they had to give him back his tools. But that's become a kind of mantra for Zen, is work is part of Zen. And during Sashin, we always have a work period. as an aspect of practice. Even though people say, gee, I work all day, you know, I come to Zaz for Sashin, I have to work here too? But it's a different feeling when you're working here during Sashin than it is when you're working at your job. Yes.

[68:35]

And it kind of turned, it's kind of a turning point for Dogen because he has a realization that he greatly admires his tenzo for making the sacrifice that he does. Yes. And I guess, one question. Could you also Well, just because he doesn't have assistance, I don't know. I don't know what his situation is. We can deduce his situation from what, but I can't tell you what his real situation was. But there was something else I was going to say about that. Do you think he was really sacrificing something?

[69:54]

Well, you know, he had no hat on his head, so I mean, he was kind of, I mean, he could have been wearing a hat, but anyway. He was sweating, he was, you know, in one translation that I read, he was actually 60, he wasn't 68, so there was some discussion about how old he really was. But obviously, he was, you know, he was getting on in years and he was tired maybe or something, he was sweating, Well, Dogen is using it as an illustration to say, as hard as he was working, he was putting all his whole energy into what he was doing. That's the point. So, Dogen's using all these little characteristics to enhance his story. So, the point is, he was really totally involved. only I can do what I'm supposed to do. No one else can do something for me that I'm supposed to be doing.

[70:57]

That's the whole point. So whether he had assistance or not, nobody else can do what I'm supposed to do. They can do it, but they can't do it. But that's not their, yes. Kind of like that, yeah. Yes. Well, you can't share it. You can't. You can share them. But theirs are theirs and yours are theirs. Yeah. Well, here he says I'm 61.

[72:07]

That's interesting. I'm originally from, oh, this is a different Tenzo, 61, yes. I arrived in China in 1223 in April, but being unable to disembark immediately, this is the second Tenzo, I stayed on board ship in the port of Ningbo. a port where the Japanese used to land and then they would go up to Mount Jing to begin whatever they're going to do in China. And we went to Mount Jing. That's where we met this wonderful abbot and sat zazen with him. It was completely destroyed by the communists and then completely rebuilt. You wouldn't even know that it had been destroyed. So I stayed on board the ship in the port of Ningbo one day in May. While I was talking with the captain, an old monk about 60 years of age came directly to the ship to buy mushrooms.

[73:12]

An old monk, I'm talking with the captain, an old monk, from the Japanese merchants on board. I invited him for tea and asked him where he was from. He said he was the Tenzo at the monastery of Mount Ayuan. and added, I am originally from Zixu, although I left there over 40 years ago. I am 61 this year and have practiced in several Zen monasteries in this country. Last year, while living in Guiyun, I visited the monastery of Mount Ayuwang, though I spent my time there totally confused as to what I was doing. I think that's a kind of modest statement. you know, kind of self-effacing statement. Then after the summer practice period last year, I was appointed Tenzo. Tomorrow is May 5th, Cinco de Mayo, but I have nothing special to offer the monks. May 5th is a special day for everybody all over the world for some reason.

[74:14]

I wanted to prepare a noodle soup, but as I did not have any mushrooms to put in it, I came here to buy more, to buy some. And I asked, when did you leave Ayuwang? He said, after lunch. Is it far from here? About 14 miles. When will you go back to the temple? I am planning to return as soon as I've bought the mushrooms. You can't imagine how fortunate I feel that we are able to meet unexpectedly like this. If it's possible, I wish you would stay a while longer and allow me to offer you something more." I'm sorry, but that is impossible just now," said the monk. If I am not there tomorrow to prepare the meal, it will not be made well. But surely there must be others in a place as large as Iyuang who are capable of preparing the meals. They will not be that inconvenienced if you're not there, will they? I have been put in charge of this work in my old age. It is, so to speak, the practice of an old man. So how can I entrust all that work to others? Moreover, when I left the temple, I did not ask permission to stay out overnight.

[75:27]

But why, when you are so old, do you do the work of a Tenzo? Why do you not spend your time practicing zazen or working on the koans of former teachers? Is there something special to be gained from working particularly as a tenzo? He burst out laughing and remarked, my good friend from abroad, you do not yet understand what practice is all about, nor do you know the meaning of characters. When I heard this old monk's words, I was taken aback and felt greatly ashamed, so I asked him, what are characters and what is practice? He replied, if you do not deceive yourself about this problem, you will be a person of the way. At the time, I was unable to grasp the meaning of his words. If you do not understand, please come to Mount Ayuwong sometime, and we will talk about the nature of characters more fully."

[76:37]

With that, he arose quickly. It's getting late, and the sun is about to set. I'm afraid I cannot stay any longer. Then he left for Mount Ayuwong. So Dogen was at Mount Tiantong, where his teacher Ruijing was, and we also visited that place. And if you think about going from Ayuwong to Tiantong, 14 miles in those days, you know, on the bus, you know, pretty long ride, but thinking about walking back in that time. Pretty daunting, getting back in time for anything. So in July of the same year, I stayed on Mount Tiandong, and one day the Tenzo from Ayuan came to see me. He said, as the summer practice period has ended, I shall be retiring as Tenzo and plan to return home. I heard that you were here and wanted very much to talk with you and see how you were doing.

[77:41]

I was indeed happy to see him and received him cordially. We talked about various things and finally came to the matter he had touched on board the ship concerning the practice and study of characters." Characters are like words, right? So he said, a person who studies characters or things, actually here it means dharmas, literally means characters. the meaning that is, okay, is things, you understand things. A person who studies characters must know just what characters are, and one intending to practice the way must understand what practice is. I asked him once again, what are characters? One, two, three, four, five, he replied. What is practice? There is nothing in the world that is hidden. Although we talked about many things, many other things, I will not mention them here.

[78:44]

Whatever little bit I have learned about characters and practice is largely due to that tenzo. When I met again with my teacher Myozen, who later died in China...

[78:56]

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