Well, I spoke about posture, and now I want to talk about breath, breathing. And so I thought I would let Suzuki Roshi do a little talking. and comment on what he has to say, which is kind of what I realized I would do. So, excuse me, Paul, could you turn it up a little bit? OK? Now, so he says, when we practice zazen, our mind always follows our breathing.

[01:23]

Of course, the word always here is not necessarily so. Our mind always follows our breathing. I remember that he used to say, your mind should be subtle enough to follow your breathing without controlling it. Breathing practice, as our practice, is not breath control. It's simply letting the breath come as it comes and go as it goes. not trying to establish some kind of rhythm but simply letting the mind follow as a kind of maybe not such a good word follow kind of looks like you're making an object of breath like following a snake or something with your vision but simply to be breath follow breath is to

[02:37]

being one with breath. I remember that at one time he said he wanted us all to count our breath from one to ten. And so we all tried doing that and you know that's what we always say, count your breath and when you get to ten you start again with one. You come back to one. When you get to three, if you can get to three, it's pretty good. And then you kind of wander around the universe and you come back to one. But this is just a device, you know, counting your breath. He said it's like the handle on a cup. You don't need to have a handle on a cup to drink out of a cup.

[03:39]

we put the handle on there to make it more, you know, more convenient. So counting the breath helps to focus on the breath. But it's simply, it's a device and it's not necessary to count your breath. But having learned how to count breath, when you find yourself in a agitated or you can't really find it, then you have that experience and you just go right to it. That's my experience. I automatically go to counting the breath when my mind is wandering or when I need to focus in some situation. So it's good to learn how to do that. And that's what we usually, we should teach beginners. And I guess he said this would be nice, but to help them concentrate on breathing.

[04:53]

But it's not necessary to always do that. I remember cutting here isn't like it at all. I think it's very useful, and it's a good thing to learn. And it's something in your pocket for when you need it. Of course, we come back to our posture and our breathing, but posture is first, breathing is second. Posture is first because that is the fundamental basis Without posture, there's no breath. And without breath, there's no posture, of course. Posture is the foundation. And then we can breathe more easily if we have good posture.

[05:57]

Whatever that is for you. So he says, when we inhale, the air comes into the inner world And when we exhale, the air goes out to the outer world. The inner world is limitless. And the outer world is also limitless. We say inner world or outer world, but actually there's just one whole world. In this limitless world, our throat... I don't say throat, I would say windway. Our windway is like a swinging door. Because we don't really breathe in our throat. we breathe down here. But anyway, and this is the subtlety. The air comes in, I'm sorry, when we say inner world or outer world, but actually there's just one whole world. In this limitless world, our windway is like a swinging

[06:58]

The air comes in and goes out like someone passing through a swinging door. If you think I breathe, the I is extra. There is no way you say I. What we call I is just a swinging door which moves when we inhale and when we exhale. It just moves, that's all. When your mind is pure and calm enough to follow this movement, there is nothing, no I, no world, no mind, no body, just a swinging door. Just the breath. And of course it's not my breath, because I'm not breathing. If there is an I, for convenience, I am being breathed. This is what I preach all the time. I am being breathed. I am not breathing. I don't have anything to do with it, frankly.

[08:08]

I don't have anything to do with the way the blood runs through the veins. But we don't say, we don't associate blood that way, but we do with breathing. Because we feel that we have some control over our breathing. And to a certain extent, we do control our breathing. But mostly we control our breathing inadvertently. We control our breathing through anxiety, fear, calmness, laughter, tears, myriad ways. our beliefs, emotions, thoughts, and our environment. So we have a lot of inadvertent control over the breath, and some advertent control.

[09:12]

If you're swimming, you take a deep breath, and if you're playing a instrument, you breathe at certain places so that you can phrase correctly. And when you speak, We're always breathing. We have breath control when we speak because inadvertently, you take a breath and then you make a sentence. Then you say, inadvertently, you take a breath and make a sentence. I knew exactly how much breath to take in order to say that because I've been speaking for a long time. But the baby, when you're a child, when you start speaking, they'll take a breath in between, you know, because they haven't internalized, automatic, their breath with their thought and their action. So, we do that. But, basically, breath is the universal activity.

[10:17]

So that's called intrinsic existence or intrinsic activity. Intrinsic in the sense that it's beyond my experience. Just like Buddha nature and big mind is intrinsic and it's beyond my experience. But at the same time, what I experience is that. So we have intrinsic and experiential. Intrinsic is what we are, and experience is what we can feel or discern or actualize from what is intrinsic. So it's really, although I say I'm breathing, it's really the universe.

[11:24]

It's really me. So we experience this universal activity as breath. And we have that wonderful opportunity because usually we don't think. Although we're always experiencing universal activity, it doesn't appear in our consciousness as that. So to really experience our experience as universal activity is enlightenment. I know you want to have a question, but I'm not there yet. So these two aspects intrinsic and experiential, universal and personal.

[12:27]

So as I was saying the other day, universal and personal are the two aspects of our life. The purpose of Zazen is to be one with our universal activities without anything interfering. Of course, whatever is interfering is also universal activity. to understand it. When we have our seven-day session like this, some people can sit the whole thing, some people sit day and night, morning and evening, and then they go to work and break it up in various ways. And so then, it's easy to get the idea that sitting in the morning and the evening is practice, and then I go to work. And that they're two different things.

[13:30]

The only reason why you can sit in the morning and the afternoon is because your work is your sashin. Otherwise, I wouldn't let you come and practice that way. It's not like you're picking up little bits of sashimi and then going to work. The attitude that you have in your morning's lesson is the same attitude you have in your work day. Driving on the freeway, kidding, going to work, going to work, doing whatever it is that you have to do. how you move through that day and then come back and it does it again. This is how we actually practice.

[14:34]

And so it's not like you're doing part of this and part of that. It's all one piece. We're practicing Sashin, but actually Sashin is practicing us in the same way. So, we should think about it in that way. If we divide it, then we have two different kinds of activity. It's one activity with various parts. In Sashin, we sit Zazen a lot. And then we have a work period. So it's a lot of sitting and a little bit of work. When you go out to work, it's a lot of work and a little bit of sitting. So the proportion is different, but the attitude is the same. So when we

[15:38]

can integrate that and understand what we're doing, and really make the effort to not fall into the duality of work and sitting than how we have enlightened activity. But that doesn't mean we should all just kind of do a little bit of Zazen and go out to work, drink Sashin. You do it because you have to. But because you have to, That's great. If you don't want to do it because you want to, it wouldn't work. It doesn't work that way. It only works if you have to. So he says, so what we call the swinging door, which moves, When we inhale and when we exhale, it just moves, that's all. When your mind is pure and calm, pure means non-duality, non-dualistic.

[16:51]

It goes and it comes, but actually you can't say which is which. So when we practice Zazen, all that exists is the movement of the breathing. But we are aware of the movement. You should not be absent-minded. In other words, your awareness is what it's about. But to be aware of the movement does not mean to be aware of your small self, but rather of your universal nature, or Buddha nature. So that's what I've been saying. So we don't say, I breathe. If you say, I breathe, then that's aware of your small self. So just breath. Just this.

[17:55]

It's not even breath. It's just this. For convenience, we give it a name called breathing. But it's just this. It's interesting that, you know, when we, at the end of the day, or from time to time, we rest our body. We feel tired and rest our body, but we rarely rest our mind. And the mind is working like crazy, and mostly over time, and never stops. So, you know, when you can sit and Simply let the mind, your thinking mind or your perception, be one with the breath. You're giving your thinking mind a rest and refreshing your thinking mind. So this kind of awareness is very important because we are actually so one-sided

[19:05]

And our usual understanding of life is dualistic. You and I, this and that, good and bad. But actually, these discriminations are themselves the awareness of the universal existence. So, here we have to be careful not to say, well, it's just universal existence. There's also I, and you, and me, and these dualities. are also expressing universal activity. But because we are not aware of that, even though we are, we become attached to our way of thinking about it, to our ego. So you and I, you means to be aware of the universe in the form of you, and I means to be aware of it in the form of I. But you and I are just slingy doors.

[20:14]

This kind of understanding is necessary. This should not even be called understanding. It is actually the true experience of life through Zen practice, which is both cosmic and personal. The cosmic, our cosmic life is our actual closest thing to us as our personal life. So as it says, closer than hands and feet. So when you practice Zazen, there's no idea of time or space. If you're really concentrated, there's no idea of time or space. Time is space, and space is time. This is Dogen's understanding, and of course the universe is always propounding Dogen's understanding. All of this is like, kind of like, comes from Dogen's understanding. Space, time, he doesn't say space and time.

[21:19]

He says space-time. Time is space, and space is time. We say, I am here at one o'clock. Here is space and one o'clock is time. So time, as he says, time is experienced as space and space is experienced as time. But, he says, this kind of understanding is necessary and this should not even be called understanding. So when we practice zazen, there's no idea of time or space. You may say, we started sitting at a quarter of six in this room. Thus, you have some idea of time, a quarter of six, and some idea of space in this room.

[22:22]

Actually, what you are doing, however, is just sitting and being aware of the universal activity. The swinging door is opening in the direction, in this direction, and in the next moment, the swinging door will be opening in the opposite direction. Moment after moment, each one of us repeats this activity, or actually, this activity is repeated. We don't repeat the activity, but the activity is repeated. Here there is no idea of time or space. Time and space are one. There is just... We are doing things one thing after another. So this is very interesting. We're just doing things one thing after another. There's this, and then there's next, and then there's that.

[23:24]

But we have concept. We break it down into sections and say, this is the mornings and the afternoons, which is okay. But we should understand that there really is just one thing after the afternoon. I understand this pretty well because I've always lived that way. I've never lived in time. Ever since I can remember, you know, people say, well, last September, you know, last September, God, you know, all I kind of know is yesterday. So it's just the one thing after another. One thing at a time, one thing after another. I don't say that's good. It's just the way I've always done things. So I kind of understand that. But the other side is also important. Because I've always lived in that way, one thing after another, there's always been something missing for me.

[24:26]

Because it's easy, in the world of busyness, I would get lost. So the nice thing about Zen, even though, you know, it's all about time. You know, it's all about time and space. It's about being on time, you know, we ring the bell at a certain time, and it's all about timing. And it's also about being here, space, you know. Zen saved me in that way. It gave me a kind of form, you know, for my life. Pretty much formless. So, anyway, you say, I must do... time and space are one. So you may say, I am doing something this afternoon, but actually there is no this afternoon.

[25:28]

We do things one after the other. There's no such thing as this afternoon, or one o'clock, or two o'clock. But, nevertheless, at one o'clock we will eat our lunch. To eat lunch is itself one o'clock. Eating and time are the same. You will be somewhere. But that place cannot be separated from one o'clock. For someone who actually appreciates our life, they are the same. They are the same. Now this is very interesting. I pondered over what he means by this, and I finally came up with my interpretation. For someone who usually approaches our life, actually approaches our life, I'm sorry, for someone who actually appreciates our life, they are the same. Time and space. But when we become tired of our life, we may say, I shouldn't have come to this place.

[26:33]

It may have been much better to have gone to some other place for lunch. This place is not so good. In your mind, you create an actual, you create an idea of space separated from actual time. You understand what he's saying? Tired of your life means that you're not connected to the universality of your life and you only see the other side which is egocentric. to be one with the universal activity in an experiential way is to let go of ego.

[27:39]

Because we realize that we are cooperating, I like to use the word cooperating, personally with the universality of life. So cooperating means that our small self, our ego, is directed by the universality rather than by itself. When it's directed by itself it's called ego. When it's, as Dogen says, throwing yourself into the house of Buddha or universal activity, then ego has a way to go without cannibalizing itself. giving our breath over, giving our sense of self over to universal activity as breathing.

[28:43]

That's how we manage our breath. So, you may say, this is bad, or I should not do this about something. Actually, when you say, I should not do this, You are doing not doing in that moment. The moment you say that, you are doing not doing in that moment. So there is no choice for you. When you separate the idea of time and space, you feel as if you have some choice. But actually, you have to do something, or you have to do not doing. Not to do something is doing something. Good and bad are only in your mind, so we should not say, this is good or this is bad. Instead of saying bad, you can say not to do, rather than making a judgment. If you think this is bad, it will create some confusion for you.

[29:51]

So in the realm of pure religion, there is no confusion of time and space, or good or bad. All that we should do is just do something as it comes. should live in this moment. So when we sit, we concentrate on our breathing, and we become a swinging door, and we do something we should do, something we must do. This is Zen practice. In this practice, there is no confusion. If you establish this kind of life, you have no confusion whatsoever, even when you are confused. Even when you're confused. Because it's not my confusion. It's just confusion. If it's your confusion, then you have confusion.

[30:55]

But if it's not your confusion, then it's just confusion. And confusion is not bad. Sometimes it's actually quite good. Confusion is a tool to help you make a decision. If you know how to use confusion, it's not your confusion. If you don't know how to use confusion, then it's your confusion. So this day, I think it was, I was quoting Tozan's verse about the white cloud in the mountain, but I couldn't remember that one That one word, but here it is. Togon, a famous Zen master said, the blue mountain is the parent of the white cloud, and the white cloud is the child of the blue mountain. Remember that? All day long they depend on each other.

[31:59]

So the word depend is what it is. And you can never remember that. They depend on each other without being dependent on each other. Great statement. The white cloud is always the white cloud. The blue mountain is always the blue mountain. This is a pure, clear interpretation of life. There may be many things like the white cloud and the blue mountain. Man and woman, teacher and disciple, they depend on each other. But the white cloud should not be bothered by the blue mountain. The blue mountain should not be bothered by the white cloud. They are quite independent, but yet dependent. This is how we live and how we practice sadhana. Both dependent and independent. So, what is dependent is universal nature. What is independent is myself. So, both dependent and independent.

[33:03]

So, this is characterized by teacher-disciple relationship. Suzuki Roshi used to say, I am the teacher, you're the student. Sometimes you're the teacher and sometimes I'm the student. In this life, I'm always the teacher and you're always the student. Next life, you'll be the teacher So that kind of relationship where the student and the teacher are dependent and at the same time independent. Each one keeps its own place, just like the Sambhogai. So if we understand in that way, even though we have a problem,

[34:07]

a problem. It's not a problem. So this is how we relate. And how we understand our intrinsic nature and our experiential nature. Intrinsically we are all Buddha. Experientially When we become truly ourselves, we just become a swinging door, and we are purely independent of, and at the same time dependent upon, everything. So actually, independence means total dependence. And total dependence means independence. So we say, you know, in Zen, you're supposed to stand up for yourself.

[35:10]

by yourself independently, which means totally dependent. Without air we can't breathe. So each one of us is in the midst of myriads of worlds. We are in the center of the world always, moment after moment. So we are completely dependent you have absolute independence. You will not be bothered by anything. So when practice ends, your mind should be concentrated on your breathing. This kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. Without this experience, this practice, it is impossible to obtain absolute freedom, which means not to be caught by our ego. Even though our ego or our self, personal self, is present, totally, not to be caught by that.

[36:21]

So Siddhartha Rinpoche always said, don't get caught by anything. Don't get caught by anything. That's how we practice. And when we go to work, from sitting in Sashin and we go to work, not to get caught by anything. Caught by anything means not get caught by your ego. We think things are chasing us, you know, are out there inhibiting us, but actually the only thing that inhibits us is our ego. And to be in this place at this time is all there is. So how to have our pure activity in Zazen and our pure activity in our daily life, world.

[37:28]

We are in the center of the world always. That's an interesting statement. Where is the center of the universe? Scientifically, I don't know. But experientially, right here. We're always at the center of the universe. Even though we feel that we're in... because... Here am I. And the world revolves around me. But at the same time, when we let go of self, then we are in the center of the universe. And there are many universes, many worlds. And each one of us has a center, and our world does revolve around us. and we create that world.

[38:41]

We create that world through our attitude to what's around us. Our attitude toward our surroundings is what creates our world. So if we want our world to be a certain way, well, make it that way. And why can't I make it that way? because circumstances are too heavy, too strong? Well, is it all circumstances? Are we a victim of circumstances? No matter where we are or what we're doing, there is a way to not control our world or our circumstances, but to find our freedom and create our Buddha field in our surroundings. It's myself plus my surroundings plus Universal Nature, which are not three things.

[39:55]

If you raise your hand, he's got a pleasant face. Cool. I've been interpreting and translating for myself, this phrase, universal nature, et cetera, into one's calling or one's vocation. This is more of a cultural phrase. It's like when one somehow discovers or is open to one's vocation or one's calling, then this, I like this metaphor, maybe even more than Swingey, but well, I'll make a quick answer. Is this a good equivalent translation of somehow being in touch with one's calling or one's something else is, like there's something that we're met, like you see a path, right, and it has its characteristics, and my work or my destination or something, right?

[41:31]

That's what it is that meets the world. And so each one of us has some way to go where you know all, not everybody discovered what that is, you know, like the butcher and the baker and the da da da, right? And so that's our vehicle in the world for expressing our nature. That's our vehicle for expressing universal nature. That's what I would say. And we call it a calling because it It takes it out of the realm of my wish. It takes it out of the realm of ego. Yeah, it takes it out of the realm of ego. But that's a whole other question. There are limited callings and unlimited callings.

[42:40]

So, for us, how we express The unlimited within the limited. A flower is expressing the whole universal nature in that little, that small being. But we're more complex, so it's harder for us. Tamara had her hand up. Well, no, I was just thinking that even though we're responding, the whole day is Zazen, There's something very important about actually doing Zazen and actually doing Sashin. You think that I was minimizing that? Did I say you were minimizing? Yeah. I don't think I said that. I was just... Well, to me you said it. You said that, you know, as if. I mean, I'm not criticizing. I'm just saying that's how I understand it.

[43:41]

Well, you understand that I'm... what... Well, OK, I don't have a question. Since you already have the answer, I don't have a question for you. OK. What I thought I was saying was there are two different ways. And if you have to do it this way, then how do you do it that way? I'm not saying that we shouldn't minimize exhaustion. So that's how I understood your question. Well, I guess it seems that to me, that it can be very, it's very challenging to create the time for especially a session like this one. And it's also so it's kind of tempting to say, well, I'll just do session all day long at my job, you know, instead of

[44:47]

you know, crossing off the days on my calendar and coming in to do Sashin. I think it's, you know, how to find on the one hand everything being Sashin and at the same time finding the commitment to actually doing Sashin. I agree with you. But I agree with your challenge, that it's very challenging. That's what I agree with. But I think the thing to understand is, wherever you are, that's where you begin. And if you think this is more important than that, then you're minimizing the importance of your life at this moment that's not sitting on the cushion. So, it is difficult, and it's challenging, and that's what makes it vital.

[45:59]

So, the important thing is, you don't say, well, I'll just sit in a little bit of sashin and then do something else, you know, to make it easy. That's something else. That's not the same thing as I was talking about. I was talking about, because you have to work in order to And that keeps you from sitting all the time. That becomes your vehicle. You don't have to call it Zazen, it's just practice. Everything, you know, practice is continuous. It doesn't end when you give up the cushion. So, otherwise, You know, everybody would have to be here for seven days. We'd have this little session and a few minutes of bursing. So we have to go with our circumstances.

[47:02]

How do we practice, given what we're given, to practice faith? If we actually take up and Just practice with what we're given. Instead of saying, well, I think I'll go to the next restaurant, because I don't like this one, then we don't have much practice. It's not real practice. It doesn't feel like practice all the time, when we're not sitting on a cushion, but it is. And this is how we practice. Even though it doesn't look like it. I do count my breaths and sometimes I find myself counting 5 and then I count 3 and then I count 8 and I get so disconnected from my breathing and how can I

[48:19]

How can I reconnect? How can I connect? When did that happen? Well, let's see, you started sitting in 1967 or 8 or something like that? 1970. 1970. So, you don't have to count your friends anymore. Anyway, we should breathe down here. This is ego breathing, and this is universal breath breathing. I know that you can argue that. Because it has to do with fear and anxiety and thought processes and so forth.

[49:27]

And closing down. So breathing should open us up. And the way it opens us up is with the breath.

[49:36]

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