Maybe you're getting tired of this. Go on. For sure. For sure. Okay. Well, we didn't finish last time. And this is the last class, right? So we'll take tonight to finish. We started, we read the poem and got to about a little bit down the first paragraph, I think. All right, so Master Tian Tong, I'll read his verse again and start from there.

[01:57]

His verse on the case. He says, when a fly sits on the balance tilts, the balance scale of myriad ages shows up unevenness. Pounds, ounces, grams, and grains. You see them clearly. But after all, it finally reverts and gives up to my zero point. So I'll read the first paragraph, which I read last time.

[03:01]

We talked about the first paragraph, actually. Then the first paragraph is the commentary on the first line of the poem. And when he says, Tian Tong's opening lines, he means the first line of the case, not of the poem. Tian Tong's opening line immediately versifies. This word versifies actually literally means see through. He immediately sees through. A hair's breadth of difference is that between heaven and earth. Master Hui Yuan of Lushan said, ultimately, how can basis and aspect come from the realm of origin and destruction, being and nothingness?

[04:06]

And a simpler way to say that is how can the origin come from creation or destruction as form of enlightenment? How can the origin come from Slight movement with the shifting environment shows a force capable of disintegrating this mountain. And the third ancestor said the word avoid, or actually, Kuan-Long says choice.

[05:16]

himself already picking and choosing, hating and loving from the first. But then he says, just don't hate or love and be naturally open, clear and pure. You people step back and examine yourselves carefully. When a fly sits on the balance, it tilts. I think we talked about that last time, so I will go on to the second part, unless there's some doubt or some question about it. Think about it. What does this have to do with, how does this illustrate the fly?

[06:20]

tipping the balance. How does what illustrate it? What? How does what illustrate it? This commentary on the first line. Because the commentary is the commentary on the first line. How does this illustrate the first line? makes the difference between heaven and earth. Right. But what about the illustrations here? How do they illustrate that? I don't understand. I can't hear you. I don't understand your question. Well, how do the illustrations, which is the first paragraph, illustrate what you just said? I read it a little bit differently.

[07:30]

I thought that the realm of origin and destruction and being and nothingness were in opposition to what heaven and earth were. That actually is what heaven and earth were. Heaven and Earth, you know, actually is a metaphor for this. They're metaphors for each other. Right. But the way you read it, or the way Guan Long... Oh, no, he just talked about traversal bias. Well, he says, how can the origin come from creation or destruction or form or emptiness? See, Master Hui Yan of Lushan said, ultimately, how can basis and aspect, so what are basis?

[08:35]

Basis means origin, doesn't it? I think so. I think so. And aspect means the part, you know, so the whole and the part, or the origin and its expression as a thing. Everything is an aspect of the basis. So how can basis and aspect come from the realm of origin and destruction? So origin and destruction is like birth and death. Right. Being and nothingness. So a slight involvement with the shifting environment shows the force capable of disintegrating this mountain. So that's like the fly. But what is this mountain? Yes? I think what they're talking about... What he's talking about. Okay, what it's talking about is how can the realm of diversification manifest itself?

[09:42]

In other words, there is the ground of all being in the slightest movement. As soon as you have some kind of action happening, But then you have the realm of opposites. And so the slightest thing, even the hair's breadth, can tilt that, and you can then be in the realm of activity, as opposed to the ground being... I think that's a good observation. You know, we talk about the upright and the inclined. in this kind of language, when you study Tozan's Five Ranks, the language in Chinese is the upright and the inclined, and Confucius talks, you know, in Chinese philosophy in general, they talk about the upright and the inclined. The upright is which stands for the origin.

[10:48]

And the inclined means tipping over. When something tips over, then it goes, action begins. And that's the realm of the relative. So in the upright position, this is the realm of the absolute. It seems to me it's infinite. Right, the slightest incline or the slightest, in this case they're using the scale as a metaphor. So the slightest incline and it's off balance, you know. Zazen is to come back to the upright. When you sit in Zazen, you become as upright as possible and still and beyond comparison.

[12:01]

And the slightest little thing will tip the balance and start to create an activity. And this is the way it is everywhere. So heaven means the upright. And earth means the inclined, the realm. Earth means the inclined, the realm of relativity, comparison, where we feel that we live our life. That's dualism, duality. So, I think with those That understanding, that's the understanding with which we see this commentary. So... But isn't... I mean, you could look at the whole thing in a completely different light.

[13:07]

You have to speak a little louder. My hearing isn't so good. Turn the other ear. I am. Select. That's good. But you can look at the whole thing in a completely other way, because, I mean, we keep saying over and over again, form is emptiness, and emptiness is form. And when we say, look at the whole thing from the hair of breath's difference as a separation, when we look at the relative and the absolute as being separate, then isn't that the basic duality? That's what this is about. It's about a hair spread difference and you fall either into one side or the other. So it's about how you don't make the gap. There's a lot of separation there.

[14:20]

Form is emptiness, emptiness is form, but form is form, and emptiness is emptiness. So, you can't ignore activity, which you don't do. So what's your point? I think I kind of see. The problem is language. You can't talk about this without being dualistic. How do you talk about it? That's what language is. Language is duality. Yeah. So, but I don't see why your point is different from her point. Well, Rebecca seems to be saying that what we're talking about when we talk about relativity shifting from the upright is that we're preferring the absolute to the relative.

[15:29]

It sounds like we're preferring the absolute has to include the relative. Of course. Yeah, of course. But when we talk about it, we talk about the Absolute and the Relative. So, we're making a mistake on purpose. Well, maybe if we change that slight movement to a slight preference. I wasn't talking about preference. I am. Yeah, but I wasn't. I was just talking about the way things appear. Yes. I'm not talking about preference, I'm just talking about as soon as there's movement, then there's comparison. You fall into the realm of comparison. So, when things lose their balance, they fall into the realm of movement.

[16:31]

And how to keep the balance within the movement, right, is called equilibrium. But then there should also be how you keep the movement within the balance. Yeah. Or the balance, yeah, how to keep the movement within the balance, or the balance within the movement. I think what you're doing is getting ahead a little bit. Because, you know, we're just talking about the upright and inclined, and how that works, right? But within the... things fall out of balance.

[17:34]

So, in order to illustrate the illustration, I'm using the metaphor of the upright and inclined. So he says, a slight involvement with the shifting environment, meaning the fly on the scale, is capable of disintegrating this mountain. This mountain could mean this person, but I think it just means this construction.

[18:38]

Whatever is constructed. So, you know, everything is continually falling out of balance and regaining its balance over and over again, moment by moment. So regaining balance needs to come upright. And this is the principle of Zazen, and it's the principle of reality. So one doesn't become attached to sitting upright, but yet in all one's activities, one is sitting upright. Even if you're rolled up in a ball. Even if we're tipping over. What? Even if we're tipping over. Even if you're tipping over. Kind of like a gyroscope.

[19:52]

movement, gyroscope, isn't subject to it. I want to ask you about equilibrium. If it's a sense of It seems that as far as mastery into activity, that doesn't seem to be a problem. But mastery into calmness or acceptance or non-duality is something that I certainly don't usually practice. And I just had this experience right before I came of being aware of

[20:59]

something in the midst of great anger, of equilibrium. And it was really wonderful. It was really, it was an incredible experience. God, I wouldn't have said, oh, I don't usually do that. But then I got, you know, that's why the question about mastery, because it was like I was clearly aware in the midst of this total upset that there was this balance point. Yeah, that's good mastery, that mastery of emotions, feelings, and thoughts, which doesn't mean that control, doesn't mean tight control. It means, it doesn't mean not controlling, but it means not being caught by, not being turned around by feelings, emotions, and thoughts. in the midst of feelings, emotions and thoughts, to be free within feelings, emotions and thoughts, to have equanimity.

[22:09]

That's called mastery. So there's no reason why you shouldn't experience that. Well, I think that there is a reason that blocks it. Oh, yes. Coming to or desperately not wanting to feel. You know, we've made our choice that you choose this and not that, and you're stuck in not that, not that. It's difficult to have equanimity. Right. And so we get stuck in impartiality. and we get stuck in our self-centeredness. That's why, you know, these simple terms actually express enlightenment. I guess that's what the next question I have is about demonstrating the enlightenment.

[23:16]

Because that word demonstrating then comes, I get hooked into what? that there's some proof involved, or some way of evoking that demonstration in the midst of whatever comes up. Yeah, that's right. You should demonstrate that in your responses. You should demonstrate your freedom, actually, in all of your responses. How do you handle when anger comes up? How do you handle when greed appears? How do you handle when you're in the midst of delusion? And that's how you test yourself. Are you caught by your emotions?

[24:21]

Are you caught by your feelings? Are you caught by your way of thinking? A hairbreadth's difference will dip the balance. And there's the split. There's the preference. And the preference is based on self-centeredness. preference is based on ego, so-called. So we always have to, there's always some preference, but this is where the koan of preference comes in.

[25:31]

I don't care is too casual. How do you let go of caring within caring? I don't care can be laissez-faire. But laissez-faire is still one-sided. That kind of I don't care is letting go of responsibility. So within responsibility, how do you care or how do you not care within caring? How do you care within not caring? Well, I've been on the receiving end of someone yelling, I don't care.

[26:37]

And it was one of the most loving things that I've ever experienced because what it was was that it was a release of I was free to make my own way. This person, you know, it was really like saying, you're responsible and I know it and I really don't care what you do. Not controlling, not cleaning, not manipulating. It wasn't like my mother, you know. Something else.

[27:40]

So, the second, let's see, the third patriarch said the word As soon as choice and... It clearly has the word avoid, but my mom says the word is choice. So, I think avoid and choice are both in there. The ultimate way is without difficulty. It is only avoiding being choosy. So it's avoiding and being choosing, right? So the third patriarch said the words choice and avoiding. Let's say that. Avoiding and choice. Himself already hating and loving in the first. Now that's an interesting thing to say, right?

[28:41]

He's saying if you do that, you know, you fall into duality. But he was already doing it himself. And there's a koan about this. The second case in the booklet record about Master Joshu always quoting this poem. And the student says, you were always quoting this poem about choice and attachment, you know. How do you know that you are not within the realm of choice and attachment? He says, I don't care about choice. He says, I don't care about choice and attachment. And the student says, well, how do you know you don't care about it if you're not there?

[29:48]

So it goes on like this. I don't want to talk about that case now. But I might talk about it during Zazen. But just to illustrate that he already, the third patriarch said the words choice and attachment, himself already hating and loving from the first. So this gives it the aspect of non-duality. And even the poem, you know, is kind of dualistic. It says just don't love or hate, you know, but one loves and one hates. But how do you be free of love and hate? Is what it's saying. When loving and hating, how to be free from loving and hating? How to be free of that duality? Loving and hating is like the hairsprits, like the hair.

[30:51]

You're sticking your hair in between and falling into either love or hate. But often we hate what we love and love what we hate, although that's still dualistic. But, you know, completely, we talked about this last time, completely loving and completely hating is non-dualistic. If you completely, totally love or completely, totally hate, totally hate is just like totally love. Only, you have to understand it in the proper perspective. What would totally hating look like? It would look like nothing at all. Because there would be nothing to hate. There's not really... Right, because hate only exists because of love, and love exists because of... is the opposite, you know, these are opposites.

[32:16]

So, this is somewhat theoretical. I guess if you hated everything equally, you weren't making any preferences. Yeah, that's right. If you hated everything equally, that's right. No problem. So hating completely is just like painting the wall completely? It's like painting the wall completely, yeah. White or black. But, you know, If you take a look at good and bad, good only exists in contrast to bad, and bad only exists in contrast to good, even if you think about it. So, if you use loving and hating as metaphors for good and bad, or you see it in that way,

[33:19]

So this is the aspect of duality, which is splitting the world into good and bad. There is good and bad. We have to live in the realm of duality. This world is the world of duality. But the problem is that within the duality we lose sight of the unity. And we only see in terms of black and white or duality. So as soon as we have that split, that's what I mean by self-centeredness. We use our self as the center. And the self divides. So we have to see our self, this persona, as part of thing, as what part of the universe does this persona take up?

[34:34]

Where does it fit in the realm of everything else? But usually we see ourself as the center. And we do, we are the center. We are the center of the universe. But then, so is everybody else. we realize everybody else is also the center of the universe, then we know where to take our place. And we don't see everyone else or everything as an object, but part of our larger self. This is enlightenment, to see everything as part of our self. aspects of ourself, of our big self. But we can only know that when we reduce, when we let go of self-centeredness.

[35:38]

What is self-esteem? What? Self-esteem? What do you think it is? Well, I'm a little confused. Good. It's confusing. Yeah. Well, I'm confused about When sometimes I'm feeling good, I'm not sure if I'm feeling self-centered or if I'm just feeling good about myself. I really don't know how to tell when I'm self-centered and when I'm not. Well, it's natural to feel good about ourselves. And we do something and it gives us joy, you know. Some people, when they help everyone else, it gives them joy.

[36:42]

Some people, when they step on ants, it gives them joy. One person's pleasure is another person's poison, so to speak, right? So, that's not quite right, but it's close. Drugs for different folks. Different strokes. But, you know, when our joy comes from self-indulgence, then, you know what I mean? Well, you know, happiness, which comes from inducing something, from collecting, or from so-called outside.

[37:47]

But joy that comes from inside is necessary. So if you do strict practice, like you go to a monastery, you cut off all of the outer inducements, and you're just left with what you have. And where does the joy come from then? So, I don't say it's, you know, whenever we get something we feel joy, you know, happy, you know, but if you want to know about not being self-centered, the joys that come from inside, which are not just selfish, you know, or not self-centered. On that question, is another way of going about it, maybe watching your self-talk, you know, when you talk to yourself.

[38:59]

So if you say, I'm feeling good, then you treat yourself as an object, then you know there's self-centeredness in there. Every time they say, feel good, feel good, and stuff. I mean, is that something that people do? Well, actually, one way of practicing is to say, there is joy arising. You don't have to say, I feel. You just say, there is a feeling of joy arising. There is a feeling of sadness arising. There is a feeling, a neutral feeling arising. These actually are the three. There's still someone saying, there is. As opposed to just feeling arising. Well, there is. Not naming somebody. Not naming somebody, just saying, there is this.

[40:01]

It's not saying, I feel this. Just saying, there is this. And you can also say, there is this in this person. That's basic Buddhist practice, actually. There is a happy feeling, there is an unhappy feeling, there is a neutral feeling. These are the three basic meditation practices. And you can notice that with your feelings, and with your thoughts, and with states of consciousness, and with the body. The basic vipashyana meditations. And you do it just enough to establish mindfulness of non-clinging. So that's basic letting go of a sense of self-centeredness.

[41:16]

Because all these thoughts, feelings of what are arising, but there's no pointing to a somebody, an I, not pointing to an I. But we use I as a convenient way of pointing to this person. You said, if we see ourselves at the center, we tend to see ourselves at the center of everything, the center of the universe, but intellectually we know that there's all these other people and other beings, and there are some conflicts and conflict of interest between ourselves and these other beings and between other beings. What prevents us from simply saying, just consciously saying, well, I'm not going to take a side in this, including my own. In other words, if you were to take yourself out of the center by some, like, act of will, I mean, I know that that can't be done.

[42:27]

I mean, I can't do it. I'm just wondering what is it that prevents us from doing that? Taking yourself out of the center? Yeah. In other words, just letting go of self-centeredness. Yeah. Saying, I'm going to be partial to my own position. You can do that. There's a practice for doing it. Do you know what that is? Zazen? It's called zazen. How long does it take? No time at all. And he says, the third patriarch said the word avoid, himself already hating and loving from the first.

[43:37]

But then he says, just don't love or hate and be naturally open, clear, and pure. You people step back and examine yourselves carefully. OK. Then, in the second line of the verse, Tian Tong says, the balance scale of myriad ages shows up unevenness. The balance scale of myriad ages shows up unevenness. So here's the commentary on that. The Sanskrit word samadhi means equilibrium, not oblivious. This word oblivious seems to mean not lost or sunk, actually. It means equilibrium, not off balance or sunk or lost.

[44:40]

Remaining not agitated and remaining equanimous, equanimity meaning balanced. not easily turned over. So, something comes and hits you, but you're not turned over. And if you go over, come back up. Yes? I think the word oblivious might also mean oblivious because... I know, but it's not the right translation. Okay. Well, But I know that when, if we think, if we fall into a pitfall of thinking that equilibrium is good, in that sense of duality, and that we shouldn't be out of equilibrium, and that kind of judgment, then I personally have experienced obliviousness about it, from the idea that I don't want to be wrong, so I'm not out of equilibrium.

[45:51]

I'm not conscious of it. Right. Oblivion is okay. It's okay to use that too. I think any of those terms is okay. Yeah. But that's not what this word means. But that's, yeah, it's not really the meaning of apparently the word. But Cleary uses it here. He often puts words that he thinks is the right meaning. Well, I guess what Kathy was saying about taking yourself out of the seven. Well, what is one committed to, ultimately? That's a good point. We all want to be loyal. People want to be loyal to something. Even when we were kids, we wanted to be loyal. And kids sometimes have fierce loyalties to something

[46:57]

We all want to be loyal to something because it gives us a way to relate and it gives us a way to stand firm and we can put all of our feelings, emotions and thoughts into being loyal to something. In Japanese culture, it was loyal to the leader. So Japanese culture and form became very... What's that word? Stratified. Hierarchical. Hierarchical, yeah. But that's not the word I'm thinking of. That's right. Or when you have little satellites all over, little, little, futile, futile, you know, kind of small groups of people, often loyal to the deity.

[48:08]

It's the devotion. Devotion is a kind of loyalty. It's an expression of loyalty. But what are we devoted to? Everything. Everything. When we bow, what do we bow to? When we bow, what do we bow to? Life as it is. Life as it is. As is. Yeah, if you take as is to its ultimate conclusion. You know, when you bow, there's this moment where there's really nothing there. Yeah. And so I think it's loyal to nothing. But it's not loyal to nothing in the dualistic sense, any more than it's loyal to something in the dualistic sense.

[49:35]

It's just like this space where, I mean, I don't think anything's attached to it as a judgment, the nothingness. It's not like you're saying, there's nothing there. Well, it's interesting. One person said everything, and you say nothing. And somewhere in between, Everything and nothing. We bow to our self. Yeah, okay. And then we bow to the self, right? So we have something and nothing and the self. So what is the self? So there is a something, but it's not a something, it's just an open place.

[50:37]

So, something and nothing. Yes? Well, it seems to me, to answer that question, I ask myself, what's worthy to bow to? And the answer to that is, the well-being So in other words, all these beings though have all these different needs, different wants, as they are, all the beings are striving in all their individual different ways. So to me, to bow down to all beings involves a kind of goodwill or letting be of all the motives, all the interests.

[51:44]

In other words, it's like not needing it to be any special way. But for me, what I think is the highest ideal for me is to have way. Is that what you're loyal to? No, I have, the only loyalty I currently have is to my own well-being. Keep trying. What's that? Keep trying. I'm sorry.

[53:08]

Well, maybe we think of loyalty to objects or to people or to things, right? But if you think of loyalty to truth, then, you know, I think we need to feel some loyalty to something. And as David says, to that which seeks, right, which is truth. And so that you always, no matter what you're confronted with, you always come back to that. That's your final refuge, right, when all is said and done. So maybe that's it, you know, maybe loyalty to truth. And that's what I would say.

[54:53]

And that's not something, you know, this shifting. It's not truth. You know, we have to trust something. And so we might as well trust truth. But what is it? You know, so we're always looking for what that is. And so if we keep that as a touchstone, then We always have a touchstone. We always, we don't stray. We may stray, but we come back to that. Yes? I have a feeling that there's something about that loyalty to truth that I honor in myself and I somehow am aware of it in other people. I think in just about every other person. Even if I have a radical difference of opinion with that gets me enraged. There's something, there's some quality there that seems to be universal, a loyalty to truth. I don't know if it's built in or if it's accurate, but that's my sense.

[55:58]

Yeah. Well, everyone seems to have their own idea of what that is. Sometimes it's pretty hard, that's why it's hard to get along with people. This person says this is the truth, and that one says that is the truth. But, the main thing is, not what other person's truth is, but what your truth is, and what you're willing to stand by, and then you see that it works or it doesn't work, and then it helps you to find it. So it's really, truth is your own quest. Reality is your own quest. And everyone has their own quest. And we get mixed up with each other over it. But basically, in the end, it's what you feel is your real truth. Oh yeah, Karen? Getting back to the metaphor of heaven

[57:04]

It seems to me that I believe there's truth, but it still seems the way we're talking has something to do with having a touchstone, having something to hold on to. And it seems to me in the world of relativity, in the world of form, there's suffering, but there's also experiences or recognition of emptiness. So I can see where fear is emptiness or contains emptiness or they're the same. But it seems to me we still sort of think of emptiness or the absolute as the great resting place, the place where there really isn't suffering. So that's the heaven. The place where we can view suffering as something I don't know, that's as far as I know. Well that's what truth is, somewhere between heaven and earth.

[58:12]

It's not, you can't get stuck in heaven and you can't get stuck in earth. That's the koan. But that's a big problem too, I mean, like wings of desire, if you're these angels, you know, you want to help people, but they can't. Actually, each one of us has to save ourselves. And no matter how much we want to, we can help people, we can patch things up, we can try to make things as easy as possible, but ultimately everyone has to find it themselves. That seems to be the reality. And we can't help people, but ultimately each one of us has to find it himself. And we can be guides, and we can, you know, So everyone has the problem. We all have a problem. Even if we don't think we have a problem, we have a problem. It seems to me that loyalty is based on the fact that you want something.

[59:21]

You're loyal to a person in power because you want to be safe. You're loyal to an idea because it gives you the sense that you sense of being on or off. I mean, you know, otherwise you're kind of just adrift, right? If you don't have some... And loyalty doesn't necessarily mean attachment. If one is loyal to truth, it means that even though you may believe something, you're not attached to it. That's to be loyal to truth. It means even though you have some good philosophy, you're willing to let it go if it's not truth. So there has to be something that leads to ultimate reality.

[60:31]

That's called truth. So to be loyal to that means that you keep going in that direction without getting sidetracked. And the truth isn't necessarily something. It's a direction. It's not a thing. It's a direction. The loyalty is a little like a compass. It's like a compass, yeah. And it's where you point it that matters. And if you have your compass guided towards truth, then you just... Right. Then you can take hold of things and let go of them and taste this and put it down, you know. Isn't that really because it defines you? I mean, it makes... Once you... Yeah, well, it defines the direction.

[61:37]

In this case, it just defines a direction. Or it defines a sighting. But truth doesn't reside anywhere in particular. no place for it, and it doesn't have any tangible form. So, there's nothing to be attached to. But, you can be attached to it, if you give it a certain shape and form. People create the shape and form of truth, and then they get attached to that, right? And that's called self-righteousness. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about truth. Which, ultimately, one can't really grasp.

[62:49]

But one's always going toward it. to take something and concretize it and define it and hold it up as an object and be a slave to that, but it's something that's shifting. It is constantly. The form of it, the form is constantly shifting and we have to be able to see the reality within each be dualistic. Everything can be dualistic because you say it's opposed to falsehood. If you oppose it to falsehood, but truth includes falsehood.

[63:53]

Absolute truth includes falsehood. Enlightenment includes delusion. Delusion is enlightenment and enlightenment is delusion. This is Zen. So, when I say something like that, I don't mean it in a dualistic sense. Yes? When it says in the Chin Chin Ming, do not search for the truth, merely cease to cherish opinions. Right. Is this the same truth that you're talking about? Yeah, that's the same truth. Just stop having opinions. Don't seek the truth. That's right. Don't go looking for it. Just drop being self-centered. To cease to cherish opinions is the same as saying don't be self-centered. Or drop partiality.

[65:01]

Partiality is opinions. So, In the Sanskrit word Samadhi means equilibrium, not falling into this or that. That's what equilibrium means, not falling into this or that. To always be completely one with the reality of each moment as it arises. Continuously is Samadhi. and not to fall into this or that. So equilibrium means not falling into heaven or earth. This can be the balance scale of myriad ages that shows up on evenness. In the pictorial explanations in the Essentials of Government for Ministry Presidents,

[66:08]

I don't know if anybody knows anymore. It says that weighing has three senses. A level is for conjoining, a balance evens, and a scale equalizes. Do we have any argument with that? My reading of that book was very good. I would say a level is And here, of course, we're talking about heaven and earth. So, in the heroic march scripture, which is the Shurangama Sutra, it says, in that self-sustaining stable state of samadhi, perception and objects of perception, including all forms conceived of, are like flowers in the sky. Flowers in the sky means delusions. It means stuff that just, you know, if you look at the sky and you see flowers there, they're just kind of like the floaters in your eye, you know.

[67:22]

You're not really seeing flowers in the sky, you're seeing kind of the images on the edge of your eye, or on the edge of your eye, you know. Look up at the sky. I used to do that when I was a kid. I used to lay on the beach. I'd look up at the sky, the blue sky, and I'd watch all kinds of forms floating across it. They were all on my eye. I realized they were all forms that were just on my eye. That's what's called floaters. Everyone has them. Flowers in the sky means just illusions, right? So fundamentally, he said, in that self-sustaining stable state of samadhi, perception, that is when you're seeing things clearly, perception and objects of perception, including all forms conceived of, of the mind, are like flowers in the sky, illusions, fundamentally without any existence.

[68:30]

Fundamentally, when it says fundamentally without any existence, it doesn't mean they don't exist. They exist in the mind, but they don't have any existence of their own. Because they're all empty, right? Everything is empty. Empty means dependent. Empty is another word for dependent. They all exist dependent on something. They have no fundamental existence. He didn't say they don't exist. He says fundamentally they don't exist. They don't have a fundamental existence. Things don't. We talk about things' fundamental existence, but But absolutely they don't exist because everything exists interdependently.

[69:34]

Everything depends on everything. This we all know. This is the meaning of emptiness in Buddhism. One meaning of emptiness in Buddhism. Everything exists dependent on something else. That's why self-centeredness, the problem with self-centeredness is it gives us the illusion of independent existence, fundamental independent existence. And to let go of self-centeredness means to realize our true existence, which is dependent, not self-centered. Somebody had a question. Yes. Well, isn't it also that Well, there's a question that keeps coming to me. It's not only that things are dependent, and therefore they're empty, or illusorily they're isolated and single.

[70:38]

Well, but we act as if... We may be able to say that, but we act as if things are independent, because we see a world of independent entities, and so we create the subject and the object. I mean, don't people know? I mean, it seems like people... It's not because you know that everything depends on something else. It's just that they say something like, you know, these sets of dependencies are not interesting to me because, you know, they worry about certain things that I have no control over because it's not part of my life.

[72:15]

See, that's the delusion. They think that it's not part of their life. But do you really think there's something going on in Idaho that you know nothing about? You bet. Well, there's things in Idaho... The thing is that I know about them. And people are just beginning to realize. And that's without small potatoes. Yes, people are just beginning to realize. That's the problem. You know, yeah, of course, everything depends on everything else. Sort of. No, absolutely. That's why environmentalists have such a difficult time.

[73:16]

Environmentalists understand that everything depends on everything else, but people don't want to believe it. Or they'd rather be self-centered. They'd rather stand on this little piece of earth. Someone would rather stand on this little piece of earth while all the rest of it crumbles away. saying, this is mine, this is my piece of earth, to hell with all you. I'm independent. It's not necessary to know everything.

[74:22]

If you see, you know, if you see, in the introduction to the Blue Cliff record, in case one, it says, when you see horns behind the fence, you know there's a cow. When you pull one corner of a piece of cloth, the other three corners come along with it. But I appreciate what you said. So in that self-sustaining, stable state of samadhi, perception and objects of perception, including all forms conceived of, are like illusions, like flowers in the sky, fundamentally without any existence. This seeing and its objects are originally the wondrous, pure, radiant body of enlightenment.

[75:24]

So at the same time, seeing and its objects are, at the same time, this, the wonderful pure radiant body of enlightenment. Illusion, delusion is enlightenment. Enlightenment happens within delusion. How could there be any affirmation or denial there? So it's, you know, you see something, and it's a It's illusory, and yet it's real. It's real and illusory at the same time. At this time, you don't need to be choosy. You are aloof from dislike or like. He's talking about in a state of samadhi. When you realize that the illusory aspect of things is also the enlightened aspect,

[76:29]

At this time, you don't need to be choosing. You don't need to choose between whether it's delusion or enlightenment. You are aloof of, from, dislike or like. There is not even a hair's breadth of difference. How could there be separation between clouds and mud? Clouds is like heaven and mud is like earth, right? This is zazen. You don't choose between like and dislike. Just stop liking and disliking. That's all you have to do. When you sit in Zazen, sit up straight, without inclining, and just stop being choosy. The hardest thing in the world. Not always hard, but as time goes on, it gets harder. You know, like during Sashim, it's really hard. You start choosing. You start being choosy. I don't like this. hurts.

[77:33]

Start making those distinctions. As soon as you start making those distinctions, you fall into hell. Because, the reason you fall into hell is because you want heaven. Yes, as soon as you start clinging to heaven, you create hell. So you can't be attached to heaven or hell. or heaven and earth. And the way you do that is to stop being choosy. Just this is this. To be loyal to this is graceful. Or just be loyal to this. Loyal in the sense of honest. You can be loyal to honesty. This is just this.

[78:38]

And of course, yeah, it hurts. Of course. But, oh, there's this feeling. It's just a feeling. But we say it hurts. So, we have to be able to go back or go forward to letting go of everything. So, as for pounds, ounces, grams, and grains, the other one is 8 shu equals 1 z, 3 z equals a liang, 16 ounces equals a jin. Now, as one with balance in hand, if you bring a pound, if you bring a pound, I shift a pound to make it even. In other words, I put a pound on the other side, right, and the scale is even. If you bring two pounds, I put on two pounds. If there be so much as a dram or a grain increase or decrease, then it tilts.

[79:40]

Everywhere they say, get the meaning on the hook. Don't go by the zero point. What does that mean? Get the meaning on the hook. Don't go by the zero. What's the zero point? Yeah, emptiness. If you look at the scale and there's a beam, the zero point is where nothing's happening, right? And then when something happens, then you have one, two, three, four, five, six, right? So it's like an equation. You draw a line and below the line is zero. And then everything above the line is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and so forth. But here's the other way.

[80:44]

Get the meaning on the hook. Don't go by the zero point. But after all, there have never been any pounds or ounces on the zero point. It's also like the North Star maintaining its abode in its position. The more or less on the hook are accounted only according to the time. I think that means the weight is always shifting. The more or less on the hook are accounted only according to the time. Zero point is always constant, but everything else around it is shifting. I say evenness with mind Mindlessness in unevenness. That's pretty good. Mindlessness in unevenness means within the unevenness there's no clinging to any special thing, but being able to flow with the unevenness.

[81:58]

I think that's what Sue was saying. We're talking about loyalty. Loyalty is not clinging to something. In this case, it's allowing yourself to flow with things without separating one side from the other. That is why selling people what they want from a markless scale in both hands, profit is made whatever the situation. So mark with scale is a scale that doesn't show any comparison. Right? If you don't have a mark on the scale, whatever it weighs, you're not comparing it with something else. So whatever happens, it's right. But do you understand Fahyan saying the master of the mountain is penetrated?

[83:01]

That refers to at the top of the previous page, where Fayan says, some books have Fayan saying the master of the mountain has penetrated. I say neither of these fellows is done with playing the mud ball. But do you understand Fayan saying the master of the mountain has penetrated? the balance weight has shifted to the very tip, suddenly pushing and overturning the pounds and pecs. It means letting go of comparing, just pushing it off the scale. By golly, we finished. Well, I must say I've enjoyed the class a lot, and I apologize for the attentiveness and questions.

[84:20]

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