So tonight, we're going to look at case number 17, Fayan, or Fayan, Fayan Harris-Britt. A Hare's Bread's Difference tips the scale, the balance on the scale. That's the meaning of the title. So in the introduction, Master Wamsong says, a pair of solitary wild geese flap on the ground and fly up high.

[01:15]

A couple of mandarin ducks stand alone by the bank of the pond. Leaving aside for the moment the meeting of arrow points, What about when a saw cuts a scale beam? Scale beam here means when you have a scale, you have a post, then you have a beam that goes across, which holds the two trays of the scale in balance, and they balance on the post. And so the beam that goes across is called the scale beam. So he says, leaving aside for the moment the meeting of arrow points, which means, you know, when arrow points meet in midair, what is this to do with anything?

[02:24]

The power of scale. The power of scale. It says, leaving that aside for the moment, what about when a saw cuts through a scale beam, or more literally, when is the time to get rid of the scale beam? In other words, When is the time to stop our usual measure, comparative thinking? Scale, you know, weighs things comparatively. And a little bit of this, a little bit of that. So, when is the time to get beyond this measurement? Measurement implies duality.

[03:27]

We're always looking at things through the eye of comparative values. And this allows us to weigh one thing against another and choose, right? But it also promotes discriminating mind. and picking and choosing on the basis of self-centeredness, which is called egocentristic activity or duality or discrimination. So, in the case, we have Master Fayan again, only here, in the last case he was a student, in this case he's a teacher.

[04:40]

This must have happened a little bit later in his life. But Fa Yan was one of the great teachers in China, one of the great Zen masters. There's a whole school. He was one of the schools that descended from him, one of the five schools of Chan in China. So in the case, Fa Yan and Zhi Shan are here together. And Fayan asks Zhushan a question. He says, a hairbreadth's difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. How do you understand this? This comes, you know, from the Xin Xin Ming.

[05:47]

Xin Xin Ming, it was a poem attributed to the third patriarch, Sosan, called Believing Mind. or believing in the mind, belief in mind, or faith in mind, actually, faith in big mind. And this is a very famous poem and maybe considered the first full-scale Zen poem. I know some of you are familiar with it and some of you are not. But the poem says, the slightest gap, the hairbreadth's difference, is as the difference between heaven and earth.

[06:58]

So it's a quotation from this poem. Just don't love, don't fall, don't get stuck in love and don't get stuck in hate. And you will have clear mind. Don't get stuck in duality. He said, the ultimate way is without difficulty. It is only avoiding being choosy. Just don't hate or love. Be naturally open, clear and pure. If there's even a hair-britz of difference, it is as the distance between heaven and earth." So this is from the poem. And so Fa-Yan asked Zhu Xin, Zhu Xin, Zhu Xia, Ahersbretz's difference is as the distance between heaven and earth.

[08:06]

How do you understand it? What's your understanding of this? And Zhushan said, Ahersbretz's difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. He just, of course. Fayan said, how can you get it that way? And Zhushan said, I am just thus. What about you? And Fayan said, a head is bread's difference, is as the distance between heaven and earth. Zhushan thereupon bowed. Like, I finally got it. The first time he just said it. Second time he got it. This is the underlying... There are two points here.

[09:14]

One is, how do you understand this? And the other point is, how did Zhishan finally get it? The two points here. How do you understand it, and how did he get it? The first time, he repeated it as if he understood it. But then, he didn't really get it until after Fa Yen said it again. So, Fa Yen said it, then he said it, then Fa Yen said it, then he understood it. So then we have the commentary. And the commentary gives us another example. The master of Zhushan and Fayan both studied with Dizong.

[10:20]

Remember Dizong from last time? deeply benefiting from the power of refinement of studying from the side. Studying from the side can mean like observing. It's a, not technique, but An ancient way of studying with a teacher is that you study from the shadow. When the teacher is instructing others, you listen or you observe. The teacher is not necessarily teaching you. Suzuki Roshi used to say, when I'm teaching one person, I have so many students. But when I take care of one person, you should just let me take care of that one person.

[11:26]

And when I take care of that one person, I'm taking care of all of you. So when the teacher is dealing with one person, then everyone else observes. And that's how you learn. And especially in Chinese and Japanese, Zen. Observing is most of the teaching, or the way that you usually learn, not so much by direct contact. When I was studying with Tatsugami Roshi at Tassajara, I was the shuso at Tatsahara when he first came. And Tatsagami Roshi was teaching us chanting, how to ring the bells and how to do the service and how to chant.

[12:32]

He was a wonderful chanting master. And he would walk around and the people that he was teaching would just come up to him on the path. And if they wanted to practice, they'd just stop right there and practice with him. And the way they practiced was to chant with him, to imitate him, and chant with him, and just go through the chant with him. And I said, well, should I do this too? And he said, no, you should learn from the shadow. you should be in the shadow and that's a way of saying off to the side and just observe and so that's what I did but I also studied with him a little but I was very much connected with him as my teacher at the time so I observed everything he did and that's how I learned from him

[13:45]

So this phrase, the master of Zhushan and Fa Yan both studied with Dizong, deeply benefiting from the power of refinement of studying from the side. This public case is the same. He's talking about the case here, our main case. This main public case is the same as when Fa-Yan, Fa-Yin, broke down Superintendent Zha, who was thereupon enlightened. So now he's going to talk about Fa-Yan breaking down Superintendent Zha. And this case is an example, just like the main case. And it's a very famous story. And this public case is the same as when Fa Yen broke down Superintendent Tzu, who was thereupon enlightened.

[15:01]

Superintendent Tzu was Chen Master Zhuang Tzu of Bao En Monastery in Jingling. So, Zha is Zhuang Zha. One person with two names. Fa Yan asked him, who have you seen? And Zhuang Zha said, I saw Master Qing Feng. And Fa Yan said, what did he say? And Zhuang Zha said, I asked, what is the student's self? And Chui-Fung said, the god of fire comes seeking fire. Fa-Yan said, how do you understand this? And Xuan-Sa said, the god of fire is in the province of fire. To seek by fire is like seeking the self by the self.

[16:03]

Fa-Yan said, understanding in this way, how could you ever get it? I'll go back over this and correct it. Xuanzang said, I am just thus. I don't know what your idea is, Master. And Faoyan said, you ask me and I'll tell you. And Xuanzang said, what is the student's self? Faoyan said, the god of fire. I'm seeking fire. Xuanzang was suddenly enlightened with these words. Some of the story is left out of this. This is enough of a story to carry the picture. But Zah was a student of Fayan in his monastery. And he'd been there for about three years. But he'd never come to Fayan. Never came to Fayan.

[17:06]

And he never came to Doksan, never asked him any questions. You know, he was just kind of aloof. And he was a good student, very good student. And he had some position, superintendent. So that must have been, I don't know what superintendent means here, but some kind of position in the monastery. He'd been around before. So in China, You know, the monks would go from one monastery to another, traveling a lot. And so they would gather experience. So, Zhe was with Fa Yan in his monastery, and Fa Yan said, one day, how come you've been here for three years but you've never asked me any questions? You've never discussed the Dharma with me or anything, you know?

[18:07]

And Zaz said, well, Master, I must confess. When I was with Ching Fung, I got the great matter. What? I'm all set. I'm all set. And so I answered, well, how did this happen? And then Zah said, well, I asked, or let's see, Zhuangzi said, I asked, what is the student's self? And Xingfeng said, it's not God, actually.

[19:12]

It's maybe, it's literally fire boy. The fire boy, the fire attendant seeks fire. The fire attendant comes seeking the fire. has the feeling of the spirit of fire. So the god of fire is not quite right. I think you could say the spirit of fire, but literally the fire attendant, the fire boy. The fire attendant comes seeking fire. And Fa Lian said, I'm trying to think how this all goes together. He said this to Qing Feng, and then Qing Feng said, how do you understand this?

[20:14]

And then Zha said, The fire boy is in the province of fire. To seek by fire is like seeking the self by the self. That's what he said to his teacher, right? And that's how he became enlightened, apparently. That's what he figured, what he thought. So then he comes to, then Fa-Yin asks him the same question. And so Fa-Yin said, What did he say? And Zhuangzi said, I asked, what is the student's self? And Qing Feng said, the god of fire comes seeking fire. So Fa Yan said, how do you understand this? And Zhuangzi said, the god of fire, or the fire boy, is in the province of fire. So to seek by fire is like seeking the self. The self seeking the self, actually. The self, fire seeks fire.

[21:16]

The self seeks self. Buddha nature seeks Buddha nature is the meaning. So Fayan said, if you understand it this way, how could you possibly get it? Another way that it's been translated is, if this was so, Buddhism would not have lasted to this day. And so, Xuanzang was shocked, and he thought to himself, I'm going to leave. So he left. And he got down the road and he said, Pha Yen has a thousand students. He must have something going for himself. He probably is right, you know. I think, you know, he started to have a little doubt about himself.

[22:18]

And so he went back to see Pha Yen. And when he came up to Pha Yen, he bowed. made a deep bow to Fayan, kind of a submissive bow, or an apologetic bow, like, please excuse my ignorance, you know. And so then, Fayan said, then he says, I am just thus, I don't know, what is your idea, Master? So the story is not complete here, it's just things are running together. So on this page 73, he says, I am just thus. He's, how do you understand this idea?

[23:19]

And so Fayan said, you ask me and I'll tell you. So he says, now how do you, yeah. And then Zhuangzi says, Well, what is the student's self? And Fa Yan said, fire boy, come seeking fire. And Zhuangzi was suddenly enlightened. So this story has the same characteristics as the main case. And they're both stories of Fa Yan. And they're both stories about someone who thought he understood. He had the intellectual understanding. Both of these, both Master Tzu and Zhu Shan, both had a good intellectual understanding. They were right, but it wasn't their own understanding yet. which says to me that, yeah, maybe he did grasp something, but then he thought he was done with it.

[25:14]

So he set it aside, because he'd solved this great matter, instead of feeling that he had to stay with it. Well, yes. It's like putting your answer in the drawer, or in your pocket. And then when you take it out of your pocket and say, see, this is the answer. So you can't put, there's the name for this, which is, I mean, a metaphor which is marking the side of the boat. When you catch a fish in the ocean, you mark the side of the boat where you caught the fish. No, the answer was correct. The original answer was correct.

[26:15]

All the answers were correct. But there's something that was... It was not wholesome. Anymore? Anymore. It's like it's kind of rotten. Yeah, because it was a rotten fish. At the time, if we want to go along with the fact that his answer to Ching Fong, that he understood at that time, at the time when he answered Ching Fong, but he's harboring his enlightenment experience. Well, I think not only that, not only was he holding it as a prize, but it was keeping him. This is from his teacher, and so the pride that he took in it was also a problem.

[27:18]

Right. That's right. And the pride was the biggest problem. And when he actually came back and bowed to the teacher, giving up, you know, that was like throwing away his bone. Then his mind was open. It seems possible, is it also possible that in his experience, his original experience of enlightenment, that it was, that in general perhaps, those things need to be put out and risked and, you know, exposure to someone else. Yes. So they can deepen. Well, that's right. His understanding should be able to stand various tests. And also, I think that It's like you're risking something very precious being stomped on, but it's also the risk of deepening, which is what happened to you.

[28:27]

Right. So when he was with Master Ching Fong, he probably did have some insight. No doubt he had some insight, but it wasn't very deep. It was enough, you know, for him to have some understanding, but it was very... shallow. So, then it says, Fayan had chisel and awl in his hands. And then, taken away, the seal remains. Left there, the seal is ruined. He broke up Superintendent Tzu's barrier of feelings and pulled open or unlocked, more literal, unlocked Master Zhu Xun's chains of consciousness.

[29:30]

This takes a little explanation. Fa Yan had chiseled an awl and Then suddenly it says, taken away the seal remains. Now he's talking about a seal. Now seal in this context means the Buddha seal. It means the seal of Buddha mind. Or when one has the seal, it means one has the Buddha mind seal. That's the allusion. But a seal also is a stamp. And when you want to seal something, you press down the stamp and then you pick it up. And when you press down the stamp, the seal is made but it's not revealed. Then when you pick it up you see that the seal is made with the stone.

[30:48]

A chisel in all is what you use to carve a seal with. It's a kind of little chisel, little scrapers, actually, and it's soft stone, and you carve the seal into the stone. There's a case about this. It's case number 29, and then in the book of record, it's case number 38. And it's too much to go into, because it's a very complex case. But the feeling is that pressing down makes an impression, but this is grasping. In other words, With the seal down, it's there, but you can't see it.

[31:53]

It's like concealed. I wonder if it also has to do with the wax sticking. That's not a wax seal. No, it's not a wax seal. I don't think so. No, that's sticky. But it's concealed. It's, you know, it's all under there. And then when you pick it up, it's revealed, right? Now, if you keep it down, He said, taken away, the seal remains, right? And left there, the seal is ruined. I think ruined is, maybe it doesn't appear, is another way to say it. When it's held down, you can't see it, it doesn't appear, or it's ruined, maybe. Ruined is literal, but the feeling doesn't come out.

[32:58]

So it has to do with the way Fayan is dealing with the students. The Buddha mind seal is there, right? held down is like grasping the student, and picked up is like granting the student. So he's, Fayan had chisel and awl in his hands. Taken away, the seal remains. Left there, the seal is ruined. He broke up Superintendent Tzu's barrier of feelings." That's referring to the last story. And he pulled open, or he unlocked, Master Tzu Shang's, that's the main case, chain of consciousness.

[34:08]

So the seal, the Buddha seal, is there, Buddha Minds Field. And this is a case of maybe grasping and granting at the same time, because he didn't really do anything, you know. He kind of put him down. He kind of put him down. He don't have it, either one of them. He don't have it, that's right. So he's not, he's grasping, he's not granting. It's got to seal down. Yes, you're right, but you don't have it. You have it, but you don't know it. Or you think you know it, but you don't. Okay, so in the third, now I'm going to go on to the next part.

[35:38]

In the third patriarch's poem on the mind of faith, which is, I told you, is Xin Xin Ming, it says, the ultimate way is without difficulty. It is only avoiding being choosy. Just don't hate or love. Be naturally open, clear, and pure. If there is even a hair's breadth of difference, which is the main case, it is as the distance between heaven and earth. Fa Yin used this to question the master of Zhushan, making it a piece of tile to knock on the door. Nowadays, if you asked people about it, a thousand out of a thousand would make a logical understanding. just say, just stay in the realm of non-striving. Just kind of give up, you know, or else try and think of some logical way to explain it. The ultimate way is without difficulty.

[36:48]

It is only avoiding what sometimes is choice and attachment. That's one way. Just don't fall into being attached to love or hate. Be naturally open, clear, and pure. If there is even a hair's breadth of difference, it is as the distance between heaven and earth. So what does he mean by hair's breadth of difference? That's what the case is about. So this one, meaning Zushan, this one here didn't fall into speculative thought. He didn't do that. He just said, he just repeated, right, from the main case.

[37:51]

He just repeated, a hair's breadth's difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. He quite evidently had the relaxation of mastery, right? But then, Phi N, after all, didn't accept him, but said, how can you get it that way? This is why he was the fountainhead of the Phi N string. Sometimes, a student will have the right answer. And so, to be asked again may put some doubt in his mind. Well, maybe I don't have the right answer. So, if one has the right answer, one should be sure that one has the right answer. So, this is quite often the case. So, if that was the right answer, Buddhism wouldn't have lasted to this day.

[38:52]

So Master Tzu or Superintendent Tzu actually said, what are you talking about? I know that's the right answer. Don't tell me that's not the right answer. So at this point, here, at this point here, I always tell the students to divide their bodies into two, well, to look at something in two ways, to consider in two ways. At this point, I always tell the students to consider in two ways. When Master Jushan said this in the first place, why was it not accepted? Then afterwards, why did Fa Yan turn around and say the same thing? In the meantime, Zhu Shan said, I am just thus.

[40:01]

How about you? He was looking for an utterly new sun and moon to make a separate life. Now, Fa Yan didn't slip a bit. Like before, he said simply, a hare's bread's difference, this is the third time, a hare's bread's difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. I have a footnote here that says, he had the words, but not the tune. So here it says, Dong Shan Ji, That's not right. It's Dongchang Chi. Dongchang Chi is a different person than Dongchang. It's just an error in the name. Dongchang Chi said.

[41:06]

This man, this teacher, Dongchang Chi, is making a comment. And he says, the master of Zhushan responded in this way, why didn't Fayan agree? And then when he questioned further a second time, Fayan just said the same thing, whereupon Zhushan got it. Tell me, where is the puzzle? If you can see through, I would say you've got something to go on. I say, how could you get it that way? This is why it is said. It is the way, it is the same way as ever. When you meet someone and talk about it, it becomes confusing. Zhushan thereupon bowed. He understood all right, but intellectual reasoning is hard to admit. Hard to admit means, I think, means hard to accept.

[42:13]

Hard to admit into the equation. Wu Zujia would have struck Zhushan right across the back, and Fayang spin. I say, so it turns out. Some books have Fa Yen saying, the master of the mountain has penetrated, or this penetrated means actually gone through. Gone through means to have seen all the way through. It's a term that's used. Seen all the way through is like enlightened vision. So some books have filed in saying, the master of the mountain has seen through, gone through.

[43:18]

I say, neither of these fellows has done with playing with a mud ball. They're tossing this thing back and forth, and pretty soon. If at that time, Fai En had said to me, had said to me, how could you get it that way? I would say to him, long have I heard that you gave this functional, that you have this functional key, teacher, or else I would join hands and go right along, seeing to it that it is settled all at once. More literally, I think it's, wash my hands and walk away. Or else I would wash my hands and walk away. I think that's more correct. How could you get it that way, I would say to him.

[44:23]

I would say to him, long have I heard that you had this functional key, teacher, or else I would wash my hands and walk away. seeing to it that it is settled all at once. When he doesn't believe, let's ask Tian Tong. And then we come to Tian Tong's words. Do you have any questions? I don't hear much questioning. Well, it seems to me that it's the It's the hair's breadth of doubt that's expressed by the question, what about you? That's the difference between heaven and earth. And the question, what about you? That expresses that hair's breadth of doubt. If he really got it, there wouldn't be... That's true.

[45:37]

There wouldn't be a hair's breadth of doubt if he really got it. But, um... Mmm. What about you? So what is the hair's breadth of difference referring to? Yes. Separation. Any separation. Separation between this and that. Duality.

[46:41]

If you're separated from yourself, or if you're separated from thus, then it's the distance between heaven and earth. That gap is closed, and there's no separation. Then what? Then, so. Then what? Then just this. So, what is it that creates The understanding. How do you get it? When there's no separation. I mean, but how? We know that.

[47:43]

But how do you get no separation? You either have it or you don't. I don't know how you do it. Good. Yes? I'd like to go back. to the seal. Wow. And the way I understood it, if I was sitting there with the awl and chisel, right? And then it says, taken away, the seal remains. Left there, the seal is removed, is ruined. And my understanding of that was that if you take away the wood from the your idea of what the seal is, then you've created a seal. And if you don't take away the wood, you don't have a seal, you still have the block of wood.

[48:46]

And I think, you know, in the context of this push, of pushing or not pushing the student, that makes more sense than stamping the seal on paper. Do you understand what I mean? Not exactly. If you make a seal, the way you create the seal is by taking away the wood, by doing something. Right. You're removing some of the wood. You're removing some of the wood. If you don't do anything, then by the definition of inaction, the seal is ruined. You just have a piece of wood left. And it seems to me that if you look at it that way, then it's that balance, in terms of the teacher teaching, of accepting or giving that extra push over the hearer's breath.

[49:48]

If the Buddha's there, then it is there. Would you accept that? How can it get destroyed? Well, if it can't get ruined, then the whole sentence doesn't make sense. I don't think that it's talking about the seal. I think whether or not the seal is made or not. I think it's talking about whether the seal is stamped or not. Then why does he still have the chisel in the wall?

[51:13]

Well, he's shaping the student. Just to break through their mind. Use the chisel to unlock. Yeah, to unlock. Solve the chain. Break through the emotions. Right. Get through the emotions and unlock the chain. This is a hard fetch, but what if you chisel Too much, you'll ruin the piece of stone. If you take it away at the right time, you'll have a nice image. Can you beat something to death? Well, that makes more sense.

[52:45]

I was trying to figure out the answer to the question how to close the gap. And recently when I was teaching some third and fourth graders how to measure using a balance scale, It was great because I had this whole program of how they were going to learn how to weigh something. And they were going to play around first and then I had objects for them to weigh and I had measuring pieces for them to balance it with. And of course they did that for about 30 seconds and then made up their own games of piling things into one cup and seeing what equaled it. And what occurs to me is that it's no fun to have it just balance. And in this case, I was the teacher, but I learned a lot about how they were learning.

[53:56]

How do you get beyond both holding down and lifting up? That's right. And what creates interest is movement. That's why Zazen is not interesting. If you want something interesting, you don't do zazen. Zazen is letting go of all interest. I mean, all interesting things. You know, it's a very difficult practice because we really are in the world of movement and being interested in things, and I can't escape that. So the Hare's Breath difference is between heaven and earth. Earth is, I mean, heaven is, nothing happens.

[55:29]

Not even harps. And earth is earthy, you know, movement, stuff happening. And a Hare's Breath difference This is the difference between heaven and earth, but what brings heaven and earth together? That's the point. Just not being choosy. Just not being choosy. I'd like to say that the point is that to close the gap, do not pick and choose, but another point I see is that When he talks about the balance, it's as if once you start putting things here or there, you can put an entire universe here, an entire universe there and have equanimity, but a flaw will move that balance.

[56:48]

And I think what he's saying is And when he said but he says after all this finally reverts and gives up to my zero point My feeling is that this whole balance Set up this whole idea of the balance and everything is the product of the dualistic mind and once you Quit using the balance quit balancing yes or no, then the balance disappears. It's a function of the dualistic mind. There really is not a balance.

[57:51]

Well, that brings us to the next part. When a fly sits on the balance, it tilts. The balance scale of myriad ages shows up unevenness. Pounds, ounces, grams, and grains. You see them clearly. This is Tian Tong's verse. But after all, it finally reverts and gives up to my zero point. When he doesn't believe, let's ask Tian Tong. His verse says, and I just read it, and Bob just set us up for it. So the commentary is on line one, the commentary on line one is Tian Tong's opening line immediately versifies, actually literally sees through

[59:11]

immediately sees through a hair's breadth of difference is as that between heaven and earth. So that first line, when a fly sits on the balance, it tilts. Master Hui Yuan of Lushan said, ultimately, how can basis and aspect come from the realm of origin and cessation or destruction? being and nothingness. A slight involvement with a shifting environment shows a force capable of disintegrating this mountain. So basis and aspect. Basis is like the fundamental or the foundation, and aspect is the part, right? Basis is the whole, and aspect is the part.

[60:16]

Ultimately, how can basis and aspect come from the realm of origin and cessation? I think maybe a better word than destruction. Being and nothingness. A slight involvement. This is the fly, right? The fly sits on the balance. That's a slight involvement. But the shifting environment shows a force capable of disintegrating this mountain. You know, we have a fundamental gap, which is called birth and death. And Buddhism claims that ultimately there's no such thing as birth and death or there's no true birth and death because there's no thing that is born and no real thing that is born and no real thing that dies.

[61:30]

But we call it birth and death because we have this idea about entities, but everything is a process. Everything is continually in process. So various forms appear and disappear. And we call that birth and death. But there are the various forms of the various aspects of the basis. or the various being and nothingness. And being comes out of nothingness. And the various beings are the various forms of emptiness. So to speak of birth and death is a kind of concept that we have, but there's a continuous process going on. And so we create a gap between, when we think about birth and death in a literal way, or in a partial way, then we do create a gap between various realities, which is very fundamental.

[62:56]

And this is always the big question, which is the question of what is birth and death, and which is duality. And it's the same question as nirvana and samsara. Nirvana And samsara are not two different things. Although, you see, when we have different things, we have duality, right? So we do have different things. And we do exist in the realm of duality. This world that we live in is the world of duality. That's where we live. But it's also the world of non-duality. And we know that it's a world of duality. But what's hard to grasp is that it's also the realm of non-duality.

[63:59]

So, it's not that, you know, when we say non-duality, don't, you know, dwell in non-duality, it doesn't mean not to... It doesn't mean what it says. Because you can't get out of the realm of non-duality. But we have to experience the realm of non-duality within the realm of duality. That's the point. That's the no gap. We keep dividing one thing from another and only see the gap. We don't see the unity. We don't experience the unity. It's very hard to experience the unity because our mind is always dividing things and comparing, using the scales to weigh. And we have to use the scales to weigh, you know, no doubt about it.

[65:04]

But we have to also be able to weigh everything in a dualistic sense on the basis of non-duality. And that's what's so difficult. Can you say that again? We have to be able to, what? To weigh our picking and choosing on the realm of no picking and choosing. So, when we think dualistically, our dualistic thinking must be based on non-duality. In other words, when you make a decision, you make a decision based on the whole picture.

[66:15]

And when you make a decision based on the whole picture, then there's no self-centeredness or partiality. Self-centeredness is another word for partiality. Partiality means being partial to yourself or to something, but it also means just seeing things part way. not seeing the whole thing. So how can we make a correct judgment when we don't see the whole picture? When do we ever really see the whole picture? When you're enlightened. What do we do in the meantime? What do you do until the Messiah comes? There was a book, you know, in the 80s, 70s. What do we do until the Messiah comes?

[67:27]

You act in an enlightened way. No, that's right. Don't wait until you become enlightened. So if you say, well, you know, enlightenment is sudden. That means suddenly I'll be enlightened and then I'll see everything completely, the whole thing. But now it's such, should I sit and wait for that? When will that happen? And what'll I do, right? So you act in an enlightened way. Try to make a big effort to see the whole picture in whatever you do. So that you're not acting in a self-centered way. So the way The way to practice is to practice taking yourself out of the center, or not referring to, I, I, I, I want, I want it this way, I want it that way.

[68:30]

So you start with yourself. Yes? Well, even with realization of the abstract, So that even for someone that's enlightened, it would seem to me that they would still be acting from or still be aware of self-centeredness in any action that they took. It's just that the self-centeredness would have a balance to it because the whole picture includes the relative and the absolute. So it's not like the self-centeredness ever goes away. Well, the self-centeredness When we have self-centeredness, we see this person as the center of the universe.

[69:32]

When we have enlightenment, then we see everyone else also as the center of the universe, which is our bigger self. So we're centered on a big self rather than being centered on a small self. So, yes, you can say enlightenment is self-centeredness too, but in the big way, not in the small way. How do we see ourselves when we're enlightened? How do we see ourselves when we're enlightened? Well, we see everything as ourself. So we see ourselves as? So when you see someone else, you say, that's myself too. Does that happen when you put on your glasses or when you take them off? It depends on which glasses you're looking through.

[70:35]

So, Buddha is seeking Buddha, and how we... Buddha nature seeks itself. So, everybody's born into the world and looking for something. As we grow, we're seeking, right? Everybody's seeking something. And then we have all these things, all these ways, paths, and activities, which we call society's ways, in which people can channel their energies, so that we're not just kind of wall-wandering around, you know, doing it chaotically, right? And this is what society is. And then, at some point, society breaks down because the ways don't really, aren't fulfilling. And so we're looking for some kind of fulfillment. And we become, you know, we settle for various things. Your parents all settled for something, you know.

[71:50]

And then he said, I'm not going to settle for that. So we keep looking, you know, keep searching. And what are we all looking for, right? And ultimately, and some people come up to a certain place where nothing is really completely satisfying. And they, you know, notice some spiritual activity that's ultimately what we're looking for. And this question, you know, or this answer, the spirit of fire seeks fire. You know, we're ultimately seeking our big self, true self. And if you really keep that as you're in front of you all the time, then you will

[72:59]

And if you practice that, practice, you know, diligently, then your activity will be enlightened activity. You don't have to worry about, when will I get enlightened? Just practice sincere practice. Sincere practice is already enlightened practice. You don't have to go looking for enlightenment, but, you know, Practice itself is the refinement of your enlightened nature. That's why we're fortunate to have a practice. Anybody can do it, but not everybody does it. If you try and grasp enlightenment, it's too elusive. But just sincerely do the practice.

[74:03]

Because enlightenment is not the end of your goal. It's what's motivating you. That's what's actually motivating you to practice, is enlightenment. And you can't grasp it. But you feel the sincerity of your practice. And when we were talking last time, you know, you can't peek. It's just enlightened, you know. You can't peek through the curtain. You just have to act out. You know, you just have to be in the act. You can't also be in the audience. You have to be up there on stage doing the thing. not standing outside and observing it. Something about this creates a kind of corollary to when we talk about not thinking, which is really hard to get your mind around.

[75:18]

But seek not seeking, in a way, is more sensible. And how is that possible? I'm not sure. And this just sort of came up for me when you talked to me about this. Well, yes, it's beyond... think not thinking is beyond thinking and not thinking. Right. Oh, get caught in the mind with that. Right. And seek not seeking is also to do

[76:21]

without getting caught by seeking, to seek without being caught by seeking. And the no gap, you know, it's like the gap comes when you think enlightenment is something apart from what you're doing. That's the gap. when you're looking for something outside of what's already happening. Well, I don't have time. I don't have time to finish this. I don't remember which one I said we would do next time. Do you have a, Bob? Did we say? 8 is already, think about 8, you know, 8, it looks, it's a very popular koan, everybody knows bai sheng, it's fox, I mean most everybody.

[77:58]

And a very popular koan is also very difficult. It's not as, it's not as It's a very colorful language. But let's do it. What the heck? And it's already printed up, right? I don't know. Yes, it is. But nobody gave you any? He said they would be on the rack. Okay, whatever appears on the shoe rack... I won't be choosing. You won't be choosing. And we still have the introduction, a pair of solitary wild geese flap on the ground and fly up high.

[79:02]

A couple of mandarin ducks stand alone by the bank of the pond. Well, I think that, what do you think that means? I don't know, but I love it. Yeah, it's great. I hate to put an intellectual twist on it. The feeling, I think, is everything does what it does, you know? These ones do this, those ones do that, you know? They don't interfere with each other. It's sort of a relief to come back to that after... Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And there's no discrimination going on here. You know, everything has... nothing interferes with anything else. Kind of that feeling of... kind of harmony. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

[80:01]

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