Good morning. This morning I want to comment on a case from the Blue Cliff Record, which I've talked about many times. You may have heard it many times. This is case number 51, called Seppo's, what is it? Seppo and Ganto were two well-known Zen masters during the Tang Dynasty in China.

[01:15]

And they both studied with Master Tozan and Tokusan. They were actually Tokusan's Dharma heirs. And Cepo had many disciples and Gonto was a little older than Cepo and didn't have so many disciples. But he was always considered a step ahead of Cepo in his understanding. Seppo was an excellent teacher, but Ganto's understanding was as great as any of the most well-known Zen masters.

[02:23]

But Ganto and Seppo were very good friends, good Dharma companions. And they encouraged each other and traveled together. And Seppo was known as a good cook. And he used to, at one time, he would travel from one place to another with a big spoon. So Seppo had a very broad kind of understanding, and Ganto had a very penetrating kind of understanding. So this koan is about Seppo and Ganto.

[03:25]

And during their time, there were a lot of persecutions. of the Buddhists. The Confucianists and the Taoists and the Buddhists were all kind of vying for the favor of the emperor. And this is true down the history of China. And at one time or another, one would be in favor of the emperor, and one would be, or two would be out of favor with the emperor. And when they were out of favor, they would be subject to persecutions, or hundreds of monasteries would be closed, and thousands of monks would be on the street, or killed. So, a lot of the monks, the Zen monks, went to the mountains. That's the way it is in Korea today.

[04:28]

The Zen monks live mostly in the mountains in Korea. And Christianity has taken over the country, more or less. And Christianity is in the cities, and the monks are in the mountains. But during these persecutions, The Zen monks went to the mountains and established themselves. So they often called themselves mountain monks. And a Zen temple or monastery usually has a mountain name. Even a small temple that's not in the mountains has a mountain name because it's established on that mountain. So this temple is Old Plum Mountain.

[05:29]

But we're in the flatlands. Maybe we should call it Flatland Mountain. So at one time, Sepo was in his hermitage. or his place, and Ganta was in his place, but they were different places in the country. But monks used to go back and forth between them, because in China they traveled quite a bit, the monks. So that's the kind of background for this story. So Master Ngo introduces the koan, and he says, If you are caught by the slightest choice of right and wrong, you will fall into confusion of mind.

[06:35]

If you are not caught up in the ranks, there will be no groping in the dark. Tell me, which is advisable, letting go or holding fast? At this point, if you deal in terms of concepts, and remain attached to sophisticated thinking, you are a ghost clinging to weeds and bushes. Even if you become innocent of such vulgarity, you are still thousands of miles from your homeland. Do you understand? If not, study the present koan. See the following. So then we have the main subject. When Seppo was living in his hermitage, two monks came to pay their respects. As Seppo saw them coming, he pushed open the gate and presented himself before them. He said, what is it? The monk said, what is it?

[07:41]

Seppo lowered his head, turned around and went back into the house. Later, the monks came to Ganto and said, oh, where are you from? And the monks said, well, we've come from the south of the Nantai Mountains, and that's where Seppo lived. And Ganto said, oh, that's where Seppo lived. Did you see Seppo when you were there? And the monks said, yes, we have been to see him. And Ganto said, well, did he say anything to you? And the monks related the whole story. And Ganto said, alas, I regret that I did not tell him my last word when I was with him. If I had done so, no one in the whole world could have pretended to outdo him. At the end of the summer session, the monks stayed with him during the summer session.

[08:46]

So at the end of the summer session, the monks repeated the story and asked Ganto for his instruction. And Ganto said, why didn't you ask me earlier? And the monk said, well, we've had a hard time struggling with this topic. And Ganto said, well, I'll tell you. Seppo came to life in the same way that I did, but he does not die in the same way that I do. If you want to know the last word I'll tell you, it simply is, this is it. So then Setso, the compiler of this case, had a poem. And the poem says, referring to Ganto's last word, decepo, I will ask you, enlightened mind, is daytime different from nighttime or the same?

[10:01]

Even though they lived fully acquainted with each other in complete companionship, they were to die in different places. Yes, they should die in different ways. Buddha should have curled hair and Bodhidharma should be blue-eyed. From east, west, south, and north, let us come back to our old home in a midnight sky to see a plain white mountain covered with snow. So that's the case. So coming back to Engo's introduction, he says, if you have the slightest, or make the slightest distinction between right and wrong, this is like from the absolute point of view, from a non-dualistic point of view, if you make, distinction between the slightest choice of right and wrong, you will fall into confusion of mind.

[11:05]

It also means that if you know what you're doing, then there's no question of right and wrong. If you really understand what you're doing, there's only one way to go. What is the right way to go? When you are in complete accord with the universe, the will of the universe so-called, then there's no question about which is the right way to go. And no confusion. But because we leave it up to our ego to make a decision, we're always asking our ego, which way shall I go?

[12:18]

And of course, we are always falling into confusion. But who should we ask? This is a good question. Very good point. Who should we ask? Who's going to tell us what's the right way to go? Your mom? Your dad? Your teacher? How do you know? How do we know what to do? So he says, if you have the slightest choice of right and wrong, you will fall into confusion of mind. If you are not caught up in the ranks, there will be no groping in the dark. Not caught up in the ranks means not caught up in step-by-step progress.

[13:19]

In many schools of Buddhism, there's a step-by-step progress, progression from delusion to enlightenment. But in Zen practice, there's just sudden enlightenment, sudden realization, which means everything opens up at once. If you see completely what is a speck of dust, then you understand what is everything all at once. But it doesn't necessarily have to do with understanding. It has to do with experience. So what this case is actually about is about experience. The great question for everyone is, what is it? This is the question of questions.

[14:29]

So tell me, which is advisable? Letting go or holding fast. Letting go, this refers to methods of a teacher. Holding fast means, it can mean various things. It means taking everything away from the student, or it may mean very restrictive kind of discipline. And letting go, may mean giving a student a lot of freedom. And holding fast, you don't acknowledge anything. It's like, no, no, no, not yet, not this. And in letting go, it's granting. Oh yes, that's right. So these are two ways.

[15:40]

And the teacher is always holding fast and letting go, holding fast and letting go. And sometimes the students are confused. At this point, if you deal in terms of concepts and remain attached to sophisticated thinking, you are a ghost. clinging to weeds and bushes. Ghost is someone who has no place to settle. Just wandering and can never settle down. He says, at this point, if you deal in terms of concepts and remain attached to sophisticated thinking, We get a view, we get an idea. We want an idea.

[16:40]

We want to be able to think our way through. We want to be able to think our way through life and come up with the right answers. Which is okay, you know, we all do that. But he says, if you cling to this, you're just like a ghost. You'll never get it that way. mind or self. So even if you become innocent of such a vulgarity as this, you are still thousands of miles from your homeland. Do you understand? If not, just the mountains, two monks came to pay him a visit.

[17:51]

Some people say these two monks were very good students. They'd studied, you know, and they otherwise, you know, they wouldn't have acted the way they did. But even though they were good students, they still didn't have it. So it's kind of this introduction maybe is referring to this the teacher and the student. These guys had some kind of understanding, but they didn't have the right understanding. So when Seppo saw them coming, he decided that he would see what they were made of. So he pushed open Or, what is this? I like what is it better than what is this, because it works better. But, what is it?

[18:55]

And the monks were kind of taken aback at such a direct question. And they said, what is it? Or, what is it? It's not clear how they expressed themselves. But probably, what is it? mimicked the question. And some say, well that's not a bad answer, but that's not it. So Seppo turned around and went back in the house, kind of lowered his head and turned around and walked back in the house. And so the monks left his mountain and they visited Gato on his mountain. And Ganto said, where are you two from? Where have you been? And they said, well, we just came from the south of Nanri Mountain, where Ganto lives, I mean, where Seppo lives.

[20:01]

And Ganto said, well, did you visit Seppo and talk to him? And what happened? How'd it go? And the monk said, yes, we've been to see him. And then the monks related the story to him. And Ganto said, alas, I regret that I did not tell him the last word when I was with him. If I had done so, no one in the whole world could have pretended to outdo him. I just let him know my more interesting. If I had only told him my last word, my dying word, then he would have understood. So the monk stayed with Kanto and studied with him for the summer practice ongo.

[21:14]

that, you know, maybe we could talk a little bit more about this. And Ganto said, well, why didn't you ask me about it earlier? And the monk said, well, we've had a hard time struggling with this topic, you know, talking it over, and so we're a little bit hesitant to come and see you. And Ganto said, I'll tell you, Seppo came to life in the same way that I did, but he does not die in the same way that I do. If you want to know the last word, I'll tell you, it's simply, this is it. It's interesting, this interplay between the monks and Seppo and Ganto. Seppo and Ganto are actually complimenting each other. This is the response the monks should have given to Seppo. And it's very subtle, because the answers in the question.

[22:27]

And because the answers in the question means that you don't have to go anyplace other than where you are to get what you want to know. This is kind of the point of this case is you don't have to go anyplace other than where you are, to get to know what it is that we want to know. But we spend an awful lot of time and effort and travel to get to know what it is that we want to know. Last night I saw this movie about Stephen Hawking, the scientist, a brief history of time. And when you look at the research that this kind of scientist is doing, it seems so parallel to Buddhist thought.

[23:44]

Nothing that he says seems like a surprise. if you study Buddhist thought. But I was thinking, well, what's the difference, you know? Why is it that there's some problem here in understanding these two, or in reconciling these two different ways of understanding? And I realized that the scientist is seeing the world as an object, scientist sees the universe as an object and tries to understand it as an object. And the Buddhist merges with the universe in order to be it. So one is understanding through observation, trying to understand through observation. The other is understanding through intuition or directly being it.

[24:49]

And all of our effort is directed toward the subjective side. So science is objectivity and Buddhism is subjectivity. Everything is subject. And scientific view is everything is an object. So you study objects, the nature of objective reality. And in Buddhism you study, what's called study, is to be one with the subject, one with everything subjective. So one is from the outside, the other is from the inside.

[25:56]

But there is no inside or outside. We just call something inside or outside. There's a saying in Zen, don't try to understand the universe by looking through a tube at the sky. I'm not trying to criticize science. But there are two different ways of understanding ourself and the universe, our relation to the universe. So, the monks are still trying to see something in an objective way.

[27:02]

They haven't yet completely dissolved into the universe. So, this little formula, this equation of what is it is turned around is what it is. You take the question mark away and what is it becomes what is it. The answer is in the question. So what stands for anything? Anything you want it to stand for. It stands for everything, actually.

[28:08]

It's just a fine little word that ordinarily means nothing. Actually, what is a question, which is not identified with anything in particular, and yet identifies with everything. So you can point to anything and you say, what is it? What is this? What is this? What is this? It has nothing of its own to identify with. So it can become anything. What is this? And yet, what So when we realize the meaning of what, and the meaning of is, and the meaning of it, actually none of these terms has any particular identifier.

[29:18]

They're all completely empty, and yet they contain, they can take on the meaning of everything. identify with everything. So this is a big koan. In Korea, this is the koan that they give everybody. What is it? And it's the basic koan for us. Sometimes people come You say, what is it? You can work on it forever. Come back and see me sometimes. But if you want to turn the coin around, the answer is very simple.

[30:24]

See, it's not a problem. You can come up with the answer right away. What is it? Oh, this is it. There's your answer. But that's only the answer. question and answer, but what is it, really? What is the substance? How do you actualize this understanding? How do you bring what is it to life, moment by moment? Or how do you bring this is it to life, moment by moment? You can use either side. You can use either the question or the answer. has to go on. Because inherent in this is it, is what? So

[31:33]

Suzuki Roshi says, to breathe in and out on each moment, to ask the question, what is breathing, doesn't get you any closer to breathing, to the meaning of breathing. But if you just let go of thinking about breathing and just be one with breath, then you understand completely. And in Zazen, you let go of your questioning. Sometimes people have a koan in Zazen, but Zazen itself is enough of a koan. You just let go completely and become one with it.

[32:43]

As soon as you objectify, you lose it. So, to be completely subjective with everything, then what is myself is nothing outside of the whole universe. But objectively, we say, well, how can you fit the whole universe into your mind, or into your body-mind? That's thinking objectively. Of course, objectively, If you see the universe as an object, and you as an object, you can't stick the universe into your mind. But if you let go of thinking of you and the universe as objects, then there's only you, and then there's only universe. No obstacles.

[33:50]

So in his poem, Seppo says, referring to Ganto's last word to Seppo, I will ask you, enlightened mind, is daytime different from nighttime or the same? That's a good question. We say this is nighttime, this is daytime because of the turning of the planets and so forth. But actually, daytime and nighttime are one thing. But when it's dark, we call it night. And when it's light, we call it daytime. So our lives are like this. Everything is like this. One thing, but according to the circumstances and the season, We call this one thing one time and we call this one thing something else another time.

[35:14]

But often we lose the understanding of the one thing. Even though they, Seppo and Gato, lived fully acquainted with each other, in complete companionship, they were to die in different places. So this means, even though they were the same, even though they came together and practiced in the same way, they have different way. Seppo is seppo and ganto is ganto. Their understanding is the same, but they're pretty much the same, but their way of operating, their way of leading their life, of teaching, of method, and so forth, completely different. They were great, wonderful companions, very close, same root, and yet each branch is different.

[36:21]

This is the way it should be. People look for, think, have some idea about what a Zen student is supposed to be like, or what a teacher is supposed to be like. And you read in a book about some teacher who is very tough, and then you find teachers very soft, and you think, well, he doesn't match this idea I have by reading in the book. We have to understand that there is no one special way of teaching, or a special stereotype, which is either a teacher or a student. So even though they lived fully acquainted with each other in complete companionship, they were to die in different places. Dying in different places actually means going their own separate ways.

[37:26]

Everything is like that. No matter what kind of companionship we have or closeness we are, each one of us goes our own way. And they should die in different ways. It should be that way. Buddha should have curly hair and Bodhidharma should have blue eyes. From east, west, south, and north, let us come back to our old home in a midnight sky to see a plain white mountain covered with snow." Our old home, you know, is coming back to our true self, true subjective self. where we are one with everything.

[38:32]

And midnight sky. Midnight sky is dark. But the mountain, the snowy mountain stands out against the midnight sky. So, midnight sky is like absolute subjectivity. snowy mountain is like something very singular against the something white snowy mountain standing out against the dark sky. It's wonderful poetry. I don't want to explain that part. Do you have any questions? Well, you know, Gonto actually died.

[39:51]

He said, well, this is not answering your question, but he said, when I die, I'm going to give a big shout. And so one day he was attacked by robbers. It was a huge shout that was heard around the world. And the difference between the way they die means that Sepo goes his way and Ganto goes his way. In other words, the way they die doesn't mean literally the way they die, but it means the way they become separate, become individual within their shared understanding. They never got together again.

[41:29]

You mean geographically? Yeah, geographically. They never got together again. How do you know from the case that they never got together again? Well, because shortly after, This, Alcanto died. Yeah, but you know that person. You want a little close-up of him? It's pretty young, old guy.

[43:17]

Yeah, so that they're actually in accord, and one was playing off the other. They're in accord, but they're also different. And they're also, yeah, they're in accord, playing off each other, but they are representing two sides of the same way to do something. So as he says, Sepo was holding tight, Ganto was granted. No, it's not totally objective.

[45:43]

That's right. And Buddhism is not totally subjective. Subjectivity includes objectivity, and objectivity includes subjectivity. That's right. you know, for one teacher to criticize another. It seems like they're criticizing, but they're actually, it's kind of like tongue-in-cheek, you know, oh, I should have told that guy, you know, whereas he understands that he knew all along. If only I had told him, you know. He had a great sense of this, but his students were all going crazy, seemingly, at least two or three.

[47:16]

And he felt that He had the correct vision. And yet, it seemed that this wasn't so. If you think you have the correct vision, then you're not going along with the will of the universe. The only way you can go along with the will of the universe is to be completely blind. As long as you peek, So, it's not so easy, you know, to be completely blind. To let yourself be completely blind. They're still objects.

[48:46]

We still recognize the objective quality of things. But the objective quality of things is not substantial. It's all part of one big being, which is not an object. So everything has objective qualities. All things have objective qualities. But if we only see that a thing is in their objective quality, then we miss the true identity. duality.

[49:53]

But this subjectivity is subjectivity which includes both subject and object. kind of thought about this word, pre-propheticalism, for a long time.

[51:22]

Is that the right word to use? And then he used all kinds of other words. And you always come back to practice. And it means to do something over and over again, but not necessarily for some purpose. some fire extinguishers that says, turn upside down to play. Practice really means doing, and the word study, to study the self is to forget the self, That's what study means, practice.

[52:25]

practice baseball or whatever. But, you know, when you practice, you don't practice, you can practice with some goal, you know. But when you're actually doing something, you're just doing something. So it doesn't, goal is not so important. Of course we have some to, a goal can be, I'm doing this for that. or I'm doing this in order to really do this. The goal of practice is to do this in order to really do this. So there is a goal in practice, and it's to really do what you're doing. In other words, to arrive here. You know, there's an old saying, the journey of a thousand miles is to arrive here. So all of our study and all of our investigation and all of our travel is for the purpose of arriving here.

[53:53]

So this is practice. Practice is actually to be where you are. But this is just so hard.

[55:22]

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