I vow to change the truth of God's darkest words. Good morning. It's my pleasure to introduce Ron Nestor. Ron is a long-time practitioner at Berkeley Science Center and married, lived near Lake Merritt, and works in San Francisco as a If there's one word that we use at the Berkeley Zen Center more than any other word in describing what we do, it's the word practice.

[01:21]

I think you'd all agree that this is a word we use over and over and over again. And so much so that after a while, the word becomes like a kind of, to me, it feels like a sponge. We've used it so much that it's filled with water and it doesn't absorb anymore. That's how I perceive it. We had a seniors meeting, people who have been head student are a part of a group that meets every couple of months. And we were having difficult kinds of interpersonal issues we wanted to really get to the bottom of. And so we started talking and somebody at the meeting said, if I hear the word practice one more time, I'm gonna scream. So I'm just tired of the Zen can't.

[02:27]

Why don't we just talk directly? I'm tired of this Zen can't. I've never, hardly anybody ever uses the word can't. It's an interesting word. So I looked it up to see what it is that we might be doing that's not right. So this is a definition of the word can't. The expressions peculiar to and generally understood only by members of a particular sect. class or occupation, such as the secret jargon of thieves and tramps. Yeah, I felt right at home. The special idiom of a profession or trade, shop talk. A mode of talking used merely out of convention, especially the insincere use of pious phraseology.

[03:29]

We can still use the word practice. We can still use the word practice. And I also think it's interesting that Other groups, as far as I know, and you may know differently, but other groups like Vipassana or Theravadin groups, they don't, if they talk about what they're doing, they don't say we're doing, they don't use the word, the Vipassana practice. I mean, they can say that, but it's not such a common thing to say. But when we say Zen practice, like the two words almost get together all the time. Yeah, Zen practice, but you don't sort of, I don't hear Vajrayana practice or Vajrayana practice or Theravadan practice, although it would make sense to say so. When Chogyam Trungpa, a Tibetan teacher who died I think maybe 10 years ago or so, a brilliant, controversial and interesting teacher, who I met, I went to his first seminar in Berkeley in the 70s when he came to the Bay Area for the first time.

[04:50]

He gave a talk in San Francisco about hope and describing how people on a spiritual path often have hope that what we're doing will result in something which will make us better people. We have this hope. And so then he just went through the different groups and actually teased them about what they were hanging on to which would give them hope that somehow by practicing this discipline they would improve. They would have hope in their improvement. And when he came to Zen he said, and the Zen practitioners everything is practice, practice, practice and you have your black cushions and your black robes and everything is practice, practice, practice. So he was picking up on the fact that we hold on to, as every group does, we hold on to certain icons of

[05:55]

to represent what we do and kind of find comfort and security in this. And I think that the reason, one reason that we like to use the word practice so much is that practice practice is active. It's a sense of being active. So not just like studying something theoretical, but actually activating what we're doing. We actually activate. So it's the activation that makes us want to use the word practice. Not like I'll learn something, and then I'll know it, and then everything will be okay. That doesn't feel like practice.

[06:58]

Practice is more like, it's right now, it's right now, it's right now, it's right now. It doesn't go away. And I think, well, what exactly do we mean when we're using the word practice? Of course, the way we use it really covers everything that we do. It's kind of just a word to describe our overall activity. That's the way we use the word practice, Zen practice. But more specifically, what does this word mean as we're using it? And I would say a really important meaning of this word is effort.

[08:02]

The word practice at some point implies effort. It's pretty obvious. So, we're using this word practice, which implies effort. And so then the question is, well, what is this effort? What is the effort that we make? And then this leads to all kinds of problems because, as you know, the ideal of Zen practice is to have no gaining idea. So, how do we make an effort with no gaining idea? But let's back up. Let's just not take that for granted. Let's not take it for granted that we're not supposed to have a gaining idea. Let's just start from scratch. So, what kind of effort would you say that we make in Zen practice?

[09:15]

What kind of effort is it? Obviously, it's not just one thing. Obviously it's multiple, but I think it's important for each of us to clarify or to wonder, you know, what is this effort that I make as part of what we call Zen practice? What is this effort? And I would imagine that if we're growing and alive and changing, that whatever we understand our effort to be will constantly be changing in some subtle way, in some nuanced subtle way. The quality of our effort will be changing. It won't be the same always. There is from a

[10:16]

This is hard to explain, there's like... So I won't even try. Let me just sort of lay out just some obvious forms of effort that our practice can take. There is mindfulness practice. just being aware of what we're doing. And making an effort to be aware because our tendency is often to just chase whatever is interesting or attractive or fun or pleasant. and not to really notice, particularly not to notice something which is unpleasant for ourselves, which we don't want to look at.

[11:22]

And so mindfulness practice is really fundamental to all schools of Buddhism. I don't know any school of Buddhism where mindfulness is not an important aspect. maybe Jodo Shinshu or the chanting practice where you just totally give yourself over to chanting Buddha's name. I don't know. But most schools of Buddhism think that mindfulness is really important and in particular mindfulness of our ego, mindfulness of how our self-centered qualities work and really noticing how are self-centered qualities. Mindfulness doesn't imply judgment. It's like just noticing without thinking that I'm such a horrible person for being so egotistical, or I'm a good person because I'm a really nice guy anyway, even if I am egotistical, or I'm a bad person because I'm egotistical.

[12:28]

Just without judgment, just, yeah, I see that I'm self-centered. I see this incessantly. So I think this is really a key effort in any spiritual practice and particularly in Zen practice. And to watch the way our ego works to really come right up to that. and not pretty it up. I have a good example. This happened last week. I take care of my parents who are in their early 80s in the sense that I They have 24-hour care, so they're well taken care of in their house, but I take care of all their finances, and any emergency or larger problem comes up, I take care of that.

[13:37]

So their carpets in their house become filthy just from their care that goes into them for them, and they're sort of sloppy, and they drool and dribble and all kinds of stuff. Anyway, so it's kind of messy. And the carpets, when they were, then both, they both have various stages of senility and dementia, although their personalities are still fundamentally there. And I thought, well, I will see, I will hire a carpet cleaner to come in and clean the carpet for them, and then it will look a lot better. Because I know that when they were in their right mind when they were younger, they never would ever put up with that kind of condition. So, I was going to do that, but before I could do that, the caregiver actually went out and rented, without talking to me at all, just went out and rented a carpet cleaning machine and cleaned the carpet. And she did a great job.

[14:39]

And it cost like one-fifth of what it would have cost if I had gotten somebody to do it. So my first response was, oh shoot, I wanted to be the one that was gonna save the day. I wanted to be the one that would make things better for them. So that's pure ego, don't you think? I mean, it wasn't like, oh, it's wonderful, their carpet's clean and it didn't cost anything. It's like, well, what about me? You know? But no judgment. It just is. That's just the way it is. And of course there are various other kinds of effort that we make in Zen practice.

[15:47]

There's concentration. Just concentrating on what we're doing, just devoting ourselves to each thing that we do. Letting go, like when our ego does, when we do feel our ego just grabbing us to be able to relax a little bit. study actually, although Zen downplays studying traditionally, nevertheless at some point studying could be really useful as long as we don't get carried away with the words and the thoughts. So these are all part of effort. The problem is to really penetrate deeply in our effort, if as long as we have this idea that I'm making this effort of such and such in order to accomplish such and such.

[17:08]

developing concentration so that I will be calm, centered, focused. I am doing that. I'm studying so that I will no more be more wise. I'm being mindful so that I will be improved. I will be an improved person because I'm more mindful and more on the ball. All of that is a assumes the importance of a kind of a central character which is questionable. You know the best short description of effort, Zen effort that I've seen so far is by Hongjer who was a couple generations before Dogen and actually taught at the temple that Dogen's teacher Rijing taught at.

[18:10]

And Hongjer says that the field of boundless emptiness is what exists from the very beginning you must purify, cure, grind down, or brush away all the tendencies you have fabricated into apparent habits." So he presents the problem is that we're told that everything is that Buddha nature and the natural state of mind is fine just as it is. It's not that we have to accumulate something to be liberated or awakened. We don't have to accumulate something. Things are just fine as they are right now. So this question is, well then, what kind of effort do we make? Why do we need to make an effort if things are perfect? So, you know, Heng-Chir starts with, the field of boundless emptiness is what exists from the very beginning.

[19:16]

So he's saying that there's not some special state that we're trying to get to. The condition is already here. But you must purify, cure, grind down, and brush away the tendencies that we've fabricated. So we're obscuring something. And Suzuki Roshi said that the right effort is letting go of whatever's extra. So a kind of problem, which is a good problem, is how do we clear away grind down cure how do we do that in such a way that we're not we're not like the central actor in this drama

[20:38]

in Ron's spiritual adventure, drama, where he's going to be the hero if he does well, and he'll be the goat if he doesn't do well. So, how do we make effort without this drama of me, [...] being a better person? At the same time, to sincerely want to be a better person is a pretty good desire. But the assumption of what me is and that here's me and then here's the effort that I'm making in order to accomplish something here, that whole framework is questionable. And if we don't question that, we could develop various powers and we could become more concentrated, we'd become more mindful, we could become more compassionate. But I don't think we really dissolve the fundamental delusion that we have which is that we're separate

[21:57]

So I thought it was interesting, you know, that I just want to give you a couple of examples of how Dogen has, you know, this is how Dogen handles this problem. On one hand, wanting to encourage us to make an effort, and on the other hand, not wanting us to to see like we're doing this task. We're doing this task and we're going to get this result. He doesn't want us to see like that at the same time necessary to make an effort. So that Fukan's Zen Gi is Dogon's introduction to Zen meditation which he first thing that he wrote when he came back from China when he was in his mid-20s. And I like it and I like to study it because even though it's very short and relatively simple, in terms of not being complex, everything that's said in the Fukan Zen Gui points to something that is really essential in Zen practice and really necessary to understand.

[23:29]

And there was a previous Zazen Gui, a previous introduction to Zen meditation, which had been around for somewhere between one and two hundred years, which Dogen was very unhappy, felt it wasn't adequate. Although it was popular, it wasn't adequate. So he wanted to revise it. He's brilliant. This guy is, Dogen is a brilliant, brilliant practitioner and ability to write and express himself. So the first thing that he writes is a revision of the Zazengi that was in existence based on his understanding. And he puts this together in his mid-twenties and then later in his mid-forties he revises it. He died when he was in his early fifties. When he was my age he'd already been dead for three or four years.

[24:34]

So he revises it when he's in his mid-forties. and changes some of the key lines in it and how he makes these changes are interesting because it shows you how he's trying to convey effort in Zen practice but in a way that's less dualistic than when he first did when he was younger. Also there's the thought that when he was younger he was more interested in teaching laypeople. When he first came back to Japan from China he was more interested in teaching laypeople And as he got older, he was more interested in teaching monks. So maybe this is also more, he feels like the second time around he can direct it more towards monks and actually make it more sophisticated, a little bit more difficult. So just a couple of short lines and just showing you how he revised these. The first line, this is actually from the original Zazen-Gi that he inherited, and he didn't change this sentence at all, he just left it as is.

[25:53]

And this sentence goes, whenever a thought occurs, be aware of it. As soon as you are aware of it, it will vanish. If you remain for a long period forgetful of objects, you will naturally become unified. You know, whenever somebody reads something during a lecture, I always think it's good if they read it twice, because the lecturer has been able to read it, think about it, look at it, but you just hear it, and it takes a little while to settle. So let me just read it another time. Whenever a thought occurs, be aware of it. As soon as you are aware of it, it will vanish. you remain for a long period forgetful of objects you will naturally become unified and he's talking about zazen although it doesn't necessarily it's not necessarily confined to zazen but he's talking about zazen so this is like really standard traditional

[26:59]

And also Vipassana I believe too. Just to notice that a thought is occurring rather than get lost in the thought. We get lost in our thought and sucked in and then we're following the drama and then eventually it subsides. But just to notice that your thinking tends to cut off the thinking at least at that moment and then another thought comes along. But then he changes it. later, his revised version is, and this is his famous, actually this is his most famous line in the Fukanza Zengi, is, sitting fixedly, think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Non-thinking, or beyond thinking, is another translation. So, sitting fixedly, think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Beyond thinking. So, imagine you're just starting out, you're a beginner, and you're reading Dogen's instructions for Zen meditation, and he's described how to sit, how to cross your legs, how to sit straight, how to adjust yourself, and then he says, think not thinking.

[28:28]

As a beginner, that's rough, that's really difficult. and you're going to continue practicing and be really encouraged with that instruction, maybe not. You probably, you might just give up, be frustrated. Whereas if they say, well, when a thought occurs, be aware of it. And then when you're aware of it, something else will happen. And then if you continue doing that, something else will happen. Isn't that great? So the first way is something that we can actually work on. It's like a task. Second way, you're not sure what that task is. And that's the point. both imply effort, and actually, probably they're both not different. They're both moving, they're seeing thought as a problem, really, and both versions are pointing us towards what's it like if thought is not dominant?

[29:32]

What would our experience be like if thought was not dominant?" Which also means to say, don't think also makes thought dominant because, you know, we're still pivoting around the whole notion of thought. But what happens when we stop pivoting around the notion of thought? Then what? And that's what they're pushing us to find out. That's what he's pushing us to find out, but just two different ways of expressing it. But the second way is less dualistic. And I'll just do, maybe just the last one would be. Oh yeah. Of themselves, he's talking about state of sitting, which is not supposed to be a state.

[30:37]

Of themselves body and mind will drop away and your original face will appear. If you want such a state urgently work at zazen. That's his first version. Second version is body and mind will drop away of themselves and your original face will appear. If you want such a state, urgently work at such a state." So, not urgently work at zazen, but if you want such a state. Actually, the better translation is, if you want suchness, urgently work at suchness. These are English translations which probably do not have the nuance and subtlety of the Japanese, but something to work with at least. So, if you want such a state, if you want suchness, work at suchness. And this is something that the other version, the first example, he was inheriting from the previous Zazengi.

[31:40]

This one is not. This is the one that he created the language for. So rather than working at zazen, and again we're talking about zazen in the narrow sense of a formal sitting practice, if you want such a state urgently work at zazen gives us a sense that, okay I'm going to do this, I'm going to sit here and I'm going to do zazen and I have a task to do, that's my effort. And the second version is more It's recycling. Recycle is your task. So you don't know where to, you know, you don't have something out here which is your task. And yet, he says, urgently work. So urgently work, but he's not giving you a task. So that's why Zen has a sort of reputation as being enigmatic, quirky, and that's why, because we're being pushed to go beyond what is our normal way of seeing, which is based on a kind of logic and conditioning of the way our mind works.

[32:59]

So how do we go deeper than that, deeper than our conditioning? We're getting close to the end, so I'll just stop. Do you have any comments? Peter? You can say various words to point, but I think the main thing that's being pointed to is that thinking is not the pivot point. What is it when thinking is not it? Yeah, you have to start, yeah, you have to start, you have to do something.

[34:24]

You can't sit around and say, oh my God, what do I do? It's not perfect. Kate? You were talking about the field of emptiness being here already and our job being to purify it. Not to purify it, but to purify our, to purify our that in your particular case, the 24-hour caregiver did it. Because in that case, the field of emptiness was the carpet. And it was cured and purified without your efforts. That's true, and that's what pissed me off. I wanted to get credit. Eric? I got lost at the end.

[37:44]

They had a very focused effort, actually. So he could say, he could pull back from the focus. He wasn't suggesting not to make an effort, he was just, because in the Fukuzazaka, he doesn't suggest not to make an effort. He just says, don't look at it as a dualistic task. Paul? somebody else cleaning the carpet because you've got a very strong wish to do something for your parents and you're looking forward to this as an opportunity to satisfy that. Right, but see the key- That wish. Yeah, that's true but- And if so, I wonder if that particular wish was perhaps not so selfish, that strong wish. The tip off though is the fact that if that were really true,

[39:19]

then the fact that the job got done as well as it did would make me really happy, because something got done for my parents. That's right. That's right. Yeah, no, I know. I'm not a bad person. No, I wasn't implying that I'm a really horrible bad person. I was just saying, you know, ego is, if you really start to notice it, how self-centered we are, it's very pervasive. And other things are even more pervasive sometimes. Like what? That fundamental wish to do something for your parents.

[40:21]

We would hope that that would be more pervasive. It was also there. It stimulated what followed. I guess I think that no special effort doesn't depend on circumstances. I think of it more like you have your sick parents, your aging parents, and there's something about no special effort in having to be in that situation. That you're not making a special effort to have aging parents, you just have them. And to me that's an expression of, you know, and they weren't making a special effort to be monks in the 12th century, you know, who know what determines. But we all have these situations where we have to make no special effort. You know, you can't choose not to have You can't say, wait, keep me out of a birth, old, aging, and death. Or it's okay if it happens to me, but I don't want it to happen to my parents. Now, I don't want that part. So that's what I think no special effort is. You're all in these situations that you have to live through.

[41:25]

So how would you apply that to somebody who decides to devote their self to a spiritual practice? You know, it's after a while, it's sort of no special effort. I was thinking of like the March of the Penguins. I don't think the penguins have any idea that they're being good penguins or bad penguins. It's just what they do. So this is just an idea. I think it just becomes a natural expression of what you do. That's all. And I think if you're caring for your parents, Yes, I understand what you're saying. But there's something more to that. Ideally that's true, but if we completely and wholeheartedly can do what you're saying, then I would agree.

[43:06]

We have to look though, can we completely and wholeheartedly do what you're saying? Or are we fussing a lot? What's our fussing? Are we completely wholeheartedly doing what I'm saying? If we can do wholeheartedly and completely what you're saying, where you're just, you're responding to the things as they are, then that's great. But mostly, or we often fuss. We don't like, I like this and I don't like that. What? You're fussing. I know. Your fussing is also wholehearted. Yes, right. We have to be wholehearted fussing. But we have to realize that we have wholehearted fussing, too. Yes, you have wholehearted fussing, definitely. I feel like that cat. What? Now it's a Zen push.

[44:11]

Let's end with Lori. Go ahead. Katika, you actually used to say that your ego is like a doggy bag. It's full of leftovers. And what I thought with your story is, it could have very well been that the initial impulse was clean, wholehearted. It's like, oh, it's dirty. I want to get this cleaned. But it seems to me like the ego is kind of afterthought. It's like we give. We naturally give. We naturally exploit. get some points too and then that's why you get hung up later because you but but I mean I think it's actually the same thing you're saying the whole there was it wasn't I doubt if your whole motivation the driving force of wanting to get the carpet point so you can get points it's more like you thought of you know I know you you thought oh this is dirty let's clean this so it could be like it used to be for them you know but then it's so quick Ego is like looking around, always looking around for that opportunity.

[45:13]

Yeah, it's a good description. It's a good description. You know it well. Okay, we should end. It's time. Thank you. Eatings are numberless.

[45:40]

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