I had a golden retriever puppy once that I was trying to teach to sit and stay and he was very eager and very loving and very willing and I'd put his tushy down on the ground and say sit and he would look up at me and wiggle and stand up right away and then I'd put his Trish down on the ground again, and I'd say sit, and he'd be popping up again. And that went on for a time. And eventually he learned to sit, stay, or lay, stay for as much as an hour at a time, very alert and very present. I sometimes think of myself and my mind on certain days as a golden retriever puppy. That's putting it kindly. I have a lot of wiggling that goes on. in my head in my body and sometimes not thank heavens for this practice that helps me eventually to sit be here so thai reminds us that the sanskrit word for mindfulness means to remember remember to come back to the present moment

[01:24]

Zuki Roshi says, when our thinking is soft, it is called imperturbable thinking. It is called mindfulness. And Thich Nhat Hanh says, mindfulness means awareness, and it also means looking deeply. When we stop and maintain awareness of an object and go deeply into it, to observe it. The boundary dissolves between subject and object. They become one. So the Satipatthana Sutta is the study of the four foundations of mindfulness. Mindfulness of the body in the body. mindfulness of the feelings in the feelings mindfulness of the mind in the mind and mindfulness of the phenomena in the phenomena so what i'm wanting to do tonight is to focus on the experience of these words not not to stay too caught up in the

[02:55]

concept but to bring the concepts down into how we actually experience this these wisdom teachings so to move into the practice of them so the journey begins with establishing mindfulness in the body including our breath So I want to just open this up. Karen's going to spot people and I will try to invite you to speak into how do you work with this? How do you understand mindfulness in the body? How do you relate to this? How do you experience your own body? And how do you practice with this awareness of your body? Just to cue us off perhaps to say I used to teach in the jail meditation in the jails when I lived in LA and one of my most startling learnings was the number of people who actually

[04:32]

When I would say, so experience your breath and your body, the people had virtually no concept of what I was talking about at all. There was no experience of actually of the body, except for when they had to go to the bathroom, when they wanted to have sex, when they wanted to eat or drink. That was their contact with body. I can't see Joe. Joe. Yeah. Can you hear me all right? Thank you. Yes. You froze up for me, so I don't know if I'm having problems. We can hear you, Joe. Yeah, it must be some internet thing on my side.

[05:39]

I'll wait and let hopefully someone else go. Okay. We'll come back because we're hearing you. So I'm curious for this silence, am I assuming that no one works with their body in meditation practice? I can't see it. Sue. Sue Osher. Thank you. Yeah, I guess I am right with those ladies in the prison. You know, I just went blank about what does that mean. I certainly think of it. What is... I put my attention on my breath and my posture.

[06:43]

And I get that a lot during the day. And other than that, I don't know what that means. That's, yeah. Yes, thank you. So one of the things that Ty speaks of is among the many exercises that he recommends with this is doing body scans. I don't know if some people here have practiced with those, but virtually starting either at the top of the head or at your feet and scanning slowly all the way up through your body on the outside and the inside of your body. And he even sometimes adds to that or added to that awareness of my toes, I am grateful for my toes as a practice, and then working all the way through the body and stopping enough to be present with your toes, with the soles of your feet, et cetera.

[07:52]

That's an interesting practice. Jeff, is your hand up? Jeff? Yeah. You know, for me, I tend to notice the presence most When I present, when I'm in a Zoom call, when I'm in a conversation talking to clients, I'm aware of being grounded in my body, that my words are rooted in what I'm saying comes from a firm foundation. When I notice the lack of it, as I notice it first in my feelings, I've become agitated. Something has triggered me. And because it's kind of so loud for me, I notice the lack pretty quickly. but it's almost kind of an inside out thing for me. The thing that I read that I thought was so good was the idea of strong, balanced awareness. And that's sort of where the idea comes from for me. I'm aware of being seated in a very solid way when I'm doing that and less so when I'm not until I become upset.

[09:02]

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Laurie. Laurie. Hi, I couldn't get my Wi-Fi to work, so I came on late. So I was holding back. That's why I wasn't saying anything. I felt like I missed too much. But I guess this is, I don't know if this is related to what Jeff was saying. I guess where I notice it most effectively or find it most useful is sort of like the connection between emotions and the body. So it's a way to know that I'm nervous or you know if something's making me nervous or something hurt my feelings or something I'm scared or you know I know I think it's much easier to feel emotions in the body than as ideas and so I think the effort of mindfulness for me in the body even though he's not really talking about this and he has a whole other one on feelings is really about

[10:10]

that line between sort of emotions in the body. You know something's an emotion because it's in your body somehow, you know, as opposed to a thought, which is in my head or something. So I think as a practice, it helps to be aware of what's happening in my body in response to what's happening, you know, so-called outside or whatever. Thank you. Thank you. Joe, are you able to come back in or no? I think so. I think I was waiting on Lori to fix the Wi-Fi. I was going to share sort of my experiences in the Zendo when someone's handed me the Kokyo book. And usually it's fine until the Doang gets up to light the candles. And then my heart starts pounding like mad.

[11:11]

And, uh, I really enjoy being Kokyo, but it's interesting, you know, um, that pounding and it, uh, it'll usually keep going. And when I unmute on zoom, my heart, you know, is pounding right now. Um, even though, um, there's not really a mental sense of terror. It's just, uh, um, a thing that's going on, um, in my body that, um, Experiencing it in the Zendo helps me maybe be more aware now that it's happening, you know, and it's just died down. And so, yeah, I think being able to do it in a quiet, quiet, safe space helps a little bit out in the world with just being able to recognize those sort of changes, changes in my body. And you just did it because you were talking about your heart pounding and then noticing, being aware that it had shifted.

[12:18]

You're making it shift, but by being aware of it, it also allowed a movement in effect. Thank you. Years ago, I was in a sangha where Gil Fronstel came to do trainings every few months. And the first time I was ever with him, he had us do a meditation of simply watching our breath, but watching it from the origin, feeling it from the place of origin, wherever that is, but where we notice the origin, let's say, in our belly. and of watching it and naming it as it went up rising midway up then that slight pause and then descending on the out-breath descending descending descending so we were quite discreet it became quite discreet just this

[13:28]

observation of the breath and the body, which we say is a phrase, or we say those words, but we were really spending quite a piece of time just staying minutely with the breath rising up and going back down again. It was very powerful. Pauline has a question. Pauline, I can't see her. I guess she's on another page. Pauline, hi. Oh, no, I was just going to chime in on the body thing. Like Joe, I was thinking about stuff that, you know, happens in the Sendo. And I actually, I don't know if this is just me or if it's common to other people, but my relationship with my body, I think it's often felt like a car that I don't really know how to drive, a vehicle that I'm trying to maneuver around. through sort of an awkward interface. And at the start of a meditation period, I often feel that I'm trying to parallel park it.

[14:33]

That, you know, something is wrong. Something is off balance, off kilter. And it doesn't, you know, it's actually, I find it a very, very difficult practice to actually get it parked and sort of in a balanced position where it can stay. And I... I just wondered how common that was for others. Others want to respond to that? That experience? I've never heard that particular metaphor, but I love that. Maybe. Wonderful. I think it probably... is shared by many i did receive a message from the chat okay peace uh where colleen is saying i have precisely that experience great okay uh mira yeah you need to unmute

[15:52]

I think I... Oops, Mira, you're muted again. Okay. There you go. There you go. I think I spend a lot of the Zazen period mindful of my body. I'm always checking out if my back stays erect because I think that's really important for the breath to flow smoothly and fully. So I'm always working on my back and then lowering my shoulders because my shoulders tend to go up, pulling them back. So I feel like I'm ranging my body throughout Zazen. And then I'm aware of the different pains in my knees or legs. So it's a lot of body awareness to me, the whole practice. I know Sojin, that's what he advised was to be constantly viewing, reviewing your posture as you're sitting.

[17:04]

And people do it definitely with their mudra. I'm not, that seems a little, but a lot of people definitely work with the mudra. I let my thumbs fall a little. I don't care so much about that. But definitely a body practice. Thank you. And then Dan. Thank you. What came to mind was Sonja Roshi saying that a car is not a car until you get inside, turn the key, put in the clutch and put it in gear and drive. So the thought arose that it looks like we're parked on the cushion and maybe not, the key hasn't been turned and we're not actually in gear and going. And what is that like? And as Mir was saying, you know, being aware of our posture is kind of like gearing up, so to speak, and being enlivened by Zanthan practice.

[18:14]

And when I've caught myself thinking about things extraneous to the Fundamentals of our practice then I'm like spinning in neutral. I'm not in my body. I'm just like in my head thinking and I really like after service either doing cleaning in the Zendo or outside sweeping because Even though we can think I can think during that is less likely to think because I'm concentrating on what's in front of me and That's how it right mindfulness feels congruent with Soja's teaching about getting in the car, turning the key and going for it. Thank you. Let's do one more, Dan, before we move to the second one. Yeah, I have an experience in Zazen sometimes that sort of points to the difference between a kind of focused mindfulness and a more

[19:21]

I don't know, I wouldn't call it passive, but less focused. And sort of when, say I'm focusing on my breath, either counting it, and just generally at the beginning of a Zazim period, counting my breath or just following it. But it's very much like focused on the breath, just itself. And it feels like an active process in my mind to stay focused on that and to follow it. But... Lately, I've been finding that later in that same period, I become aware not just of my breath, mindful of my breath, but actually of my whole body that is breathing. And that feels both more passive, like it's not something I'm actively, consciously doing. It's just the awareness is just happening. It also feels deeper somehow, like the first one is a preliminary stage or something. I'm wondering if that resonates with anybody, the sort of active focus, like a light bulb, a light beam shining on my breath versus just being aware of it happening.

[20:30]

I'm going to move us on to the second stage here. Thank you, Dan. The second foundation of mindfulness. is mindfulness of the feelings in the feelings. So we're talking here both about physical body sensations, which some people have alluded to, and also emotional feelings. And one of the aspects of the sutra describes labeling these sensations, these feelings. the practice of labeling them simply as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Gilfarn still suggests, and I think this is quite interesting, noticing in mindfulness which of these three tends to color or influence your behavior or to color your days is what he asks about.

[21:45]

So in effect, he says, what have you become aware of in mindfulness about your tendencies? So as you're sitting, as we are sitting, observing our breath, being with our breath, and then feelings or sensations arise, and we work with them in different ways, be with them in different ways. But I think he's also talking about off as well, off the cushion. What is our tendency of mind? If we pay attention to that over time, do we tend toward a sense of unsatisfactoriness in our view of life, in our daily view or satisfactoriness or neutralness? I find this a very penetrating question to go with, and I certainly observed this for myself.

[22:54]

Is that resonant for you? So, for example, I can say that I... have grown aware that I have a slight, I don't know if it's slight, I have a tendency to move from, let's say neutral to a slight, aversive, unsatisfactory state, which can take many forms of something off, something wrong, something needing change some uh it has a negative uh twinge on it that i notice in my uh thought process it's i think it has changed over time with practice but and i that is still a tendency a lean so the so first just

[24:10]

is what how are you aware or are you aware of your tendency of mind and how do you accompany them if not han would say how do you keep them company yes karen please Can you hear me? Karen? Who's speaking? Oh, it's Nina. Sorry. I thought it was Karen. Oh, it is. It is me. I'll call on Nina in a second. I was just going to say in terms of mind, you know, my mind was very critical, you know, and I found myself also having aversions a lot.

[25:12]

And criticizing things and people around me. And over years of practice, the more I was able to let go of that, the happier I was. And the deeper the practice. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Nina, thank you. Nina, are you there? Yeah. Yeah, I'm here. There are two things come to mind. Many years ago, I was living in Boulder, and I went to a nursing home to find a job to work. And I was just engulfed by stench. And I thought, Oh, this is terrible. I can't stand this. And then the next thought was, this is where I need to be. So

[26:14]

it actually turned out that it was, you know, very, very gratifying work. But it was that acceptance and, and yeah, I guess I can just say it was accepting the environment just as it was, and then it no longer was impeding. And the other thing that comes to mind is whenever I catch myself, you know, having some kind of negative reaction, and I notice that, it just changes right away. The minute I notice it, it just doesn't have the power over me. There's something about putting your shining your light there that allows it to change your shift.

[27:19]

Yeah. I want to just underline this question before we move on to the third foundation, because I think it's a very powerful thing to really observe the tone the tones of mind and how we shift into them. And then as we become more aware of them, that that begins also to change over time. But they're very strong habit formations, I think, that we have. Our brain tendencies, mind tendencies, feeling tendencies, that starting from neutral, we move in some... some direction and to become aware of that to really become aware of that is to allow the possibility for shifting at the base eventually not immediately the third foundation of mindfulness is mindfulness of the mind in the mind sometimes when i read these phrases

[28:38]

What? It's very hard to fathom from the way it's written for me sometimes. These are referred to often as mental formations. So for example, anger is a formation. Thich Nhat Hanh says, every time a mental formation arises, we can practice mere recognition. Mere recognition. when we're agitated we can say we can notice i am agitated or another way of going at that is agitation is present this is already there so not to be agitated it means that When we are agitated, we know we are agitated.

[29:41]

As opposed to, I shouldn't be feeling agitated or I need to get rid of this agitation right now, but simply this experience of agitation is present. So Thai speaks of the five hindrances of sensual desire, anger, dullness and drowsiness, agitation and remorse and doubt. And says, the practitioner remains established in the observation of the objects of mind, their coming to be, and the process of dissolution. So... Then we can focus here on how do you have this experience? How do you notice the process of arising and the process of dissolution?

[30:47]

Or what Nina was referring to, I think, and putting your attention to an arising of a sensation or a feeling. and putting your attention your light toward it that a shifting then is possible to begin not always automatically but but is possible to begin and it can be then a dissolution so curious how how is this aspect of practice for people what's your experience with this Thank you. I know that I've been given a second time to speak and I hope people will jump in so I don't get a third one.

[31:59]

You got me thinking. I think there's a stepping back that happens in our practice that adds cooling and perspective to the mental formations. So sometimes what I found lately, because I was in extreme anxiety, talking to someone is really important. And it calms things down. That's all I can think of at the moment. Thank you. Did you have your hand up, Sue, or no? I did. I have found this a difficult practice. At some point, I remember doing this practice sitting, and it was so tense.

[33:03]

You know, it's like somebody says to you, we have a mouse problem. here in the kitchen. See if you notice the mouse. So you're kind of sitting tensely and you're looking around at the bottom of the cabinets and you are looking under the fridge and you're sitting still and you're kind of watching one way or another. And the search for the mouse kind of overwhelms everything else. What's the answer to that? What is your answer so far with that? Well, in my mouse experiences, I have never actually seen the mouse. I have known that the mouse is probably there, but I have never really eyeballed him.

[34:08]

So I think it's easy to see when a thought goes reasonably because it's there. It's like the mouse, you know, he's sitting and he's sitting right there in front of the fridge with your cheese and eventually he picks up the cheese and he trots out of the kitchen. But to see when it begins is a whole different issue. Yes. Yes. Thank you. of your thoughts on this. Luminous Heart, there's a question from the chat. How is remorse a hindrance? I'd love to know who asked that. My understanding is that none of these things are hindrances unless they become obstacles. To feel, to sense remorse is not per se a hindrance unless it stays as hindrance, it stays unlit, it stays unaccompanied, unparented, then it can operate and impact and color ones.

[35:36]

Other larger life experience, I think. That's how I would go. Other people's thoughts on that. Yes, Janae. I'm glad whoever asked that, because when you were reading off the list, I said, well, tell me how sensual desire is a hindrance. I mean, I know how it can become. an obsession or something, and that's clear to see. But I appreciate your answer, Luminous Heart, about, you know, when it is a hindrance and when it isn't any of those. Yeah. Thank you. I'm just in the service of time here. I'm going to move us on to the last, the fourth foundation. Fourth foundation of mindfulness is observing dharmas in dharmas, or objects of the mind in the objects of the mind.

[36:46]

So I want to quote Gil here again. The journey of mindfulness leads to the fourth foundation of mindfulness, where we have a clear recognition of the mental processes operating in relation to our mental states. This involves cultivating wisdom about what our minds do to cause suffering and what we can do to overcome suffering, which includes the seven mental processes that support the mind to be tranquil and liberated. And here comes one of the great Buddhist lists. Here are the seven mental processes. Mindfulness. Investigation. energy, joy, tranquility, concentration, and equanimity, and to have a clear knowledge of the four noble truths as insights leading to liberation.

[37:55]

So again, Gil asks one of his good provocative questions here. What are some of the attachments that you understand well enough to let go relatively easily of your own attachments, and can you sense the benefits of that? And then he asks, what are some of the stronger attachments that you have that are harder for you to release? And then lastly, what do you discover are things that you can't even imagine releasing? I could just jump in on the first one to say that the ones that feel relatively easy to release for me are ones where they rise up, whatever it is. And I have this sort of Simon and Garfunkel sense of, oh, hello, darkness, my old friend, kind of a familiarity.

[38:56]

Oh, hello there, my little, Thich Nhat Hanh used to say, oh, hello, my little anger. I don't say that to my anger so much, but I can say, oh, hello, my little doubt. Hello there. And there's something benignly observant about just seeing it rise up again as it has risen 4,000 times before that allows it to just pass through. So that's one of my easy ones, one of my easy things. attachments so what are some for you that you're aware of that are either easy you find relatively easy and ones that you find that you that really keep resurfacing and are hard to release hard to let go through For example, how do people work with held resentment?

[40:08]

Long-term resentments. Disappointment. Disappointment, okay. Yeah. I'm looking at, Jeff, did you want to say, and then I'm looking at time because I need to shift over and pass on to Ron. Kathy has her hand up too. And Kathy, yeah. No, no, I'm okay. Please move along. Sorry. OK, no worry, Kathy, wherever you are. Can you hear me?

[41:14]

No. OK, great. So I'm new to this community. Hi, everybody. So I was kind of pleased the other weekend I was. I've been having a little bit of a tough time and I noticed, I was like, oh, there's my old feelings of abandonment from my childhood latchkey kid experience, et cetera, et cetera. And I was like, oh, there they are again. And I was able to get a little separation, which was kind of nice. So I offer that as an example. Thank you, Kathy. Welcome to us. I am going to stop. I leave you, though, with these questions. I think they're quite provocative.

[42:16]

I'm going to end with a quote from Norman Fisher, which I love very much about mindfulness. Mindfulness is more than just a meditative practice. Mindfulness is life. And life is love. That's why it's the whole path of the Bodhisattva. Thank you. Ryan. Thank you. Okay, that's good. So I'd like to shift over to concentration. And like, I don't know if it's like mindfulness in the sense that it's something that concentration is, you know, intimate with Zazen. And I assume that everybody here is interested in some way or participates in some way in doing Zazen.

[43:20]

So when we say the word concentration, when I hear that word, I just kind of, it's very... very broad and kind of generic feeling I get when I hear the word concentration. But when I think about it during Zazen and my experience with it, it's not generic. It has a very specific kind of feeling and which is not always the same and our energy to it. So I was just curious something that is, and by the way, Zen, has concentration as its center more than any other Buddhist school that I'm aware of. And actually our name, Chan turned into Zen. Chan in China turned into Zen in Japan. And we kept the word Zen because it's a cool word. But then Chan, the word Chan comes from Jhana or Dhyana.

[44:30]

in Sanskrit and Pali, which mean basically meditation or samadhi. So our whole name actually, Zen, comes from the word, the Pali or Sanskrit word for concentration or meditation. So I'm just curious, even though it's a very generic word that we use all the time and in all kinds of ways, Just a few people, what's your experience in your own Zazen practice? How would you, not so much analytically, but experientially, what's your feeling about, what's the first thing that comes to your mind? If you picture yourself in doing Zazen and you think about how the aspect of concentration within that, how would you express that? Joe?

[45:36]

I would say relaxed. Okay. That sounds pretty good. That's good. You know, and Mira, just a minute. You probably know that Gil really promotes relaxation as a part of concentration, really mentions it very, very careful to mention that because our tendency is to be driving, to be concentrated. I'm going to stay with us and I'm going to really concentrate and be focused. And they're kind of a hard edge. He's warning against a kind of a hard edge attitude about it. And what you're describing is something which is much softer and that is quite nice. I like that. Mira? So when I apply myself and make more of an effort, it's following my breath in a one-pointed way.

[46:44]

So I'm really trying to follow my breath, moving up maybe to my nostrils and moving down my body into my hara and really staying with my breath. So to me, concentration is that one-pointedness. not let myself go into my thoughts. You know, keep bringing myself back. Into your breathing? Yes, breathing. Okay. Staying with my breathing. That, to me, is the point of concentration. Yeah. My breathing and sense. And I know, because I did some jhana practice, I was interested in that. So I did a long retreat, a month of jhana practice. Yeah. In jhana practice, it's really, really pushing for that one pointedness. And they often focus in this part of the body right below the nostrils.

[47:45]

Yeah. Yeah, if we have time, we'll talk about the jhanas, but we'll see if we have time for that. Yeah. That's good. Anybody else? In the third row here over on the right, I don't know your name. Karen, you see that? Joanne. Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. I should be able to see the names. I need to move my mouse here. Okay. Joanne. Thank you. That's okay. I was thinking of the word return when you said concentration. And I guess I don't. think of concentration as being in any particular spot or like even in breathing but actually kind of returning to the present and that could be my body often usually hopefully is but it's also just where I am the present like what what is happening and it could be a thought it could be a feeling and I and I look at it and I see that it's there and I do the like hello

[48:59]

try to do the hello, and I think often of that Suzuki Roshi, the little that's hung up outside the Zendo with like the front door and open the back door and don't serve them tea, like the feelings, the formations, thoughts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if it's really concentrate. I guess concentration should be like a one-pointedness. I don't even know if I could do it, but I think more of a broader kind of awareness, so. And just returning to not even my breath, sometimes my breath, but the present. And I don't know if that's different. Maybe it's the same, but maybe. Well, what you're talking about is kind of fits well with two kinds of concentration that Gil talks about. And probably, I think Thich Nhat Hanh does too, which is one is active. And let's see what the other one. What's the other one besides active?

[50:02]

Active and selective. So you're talking about active concentration, which is just a broad, whatever comes up, you're aware of that. You're more in that direction. Selective is you pick one thing, like your breath, your hara, your belly, or underneath your nose, or you could do anything, actually. and you just focus on that. So that's selective. And what you're talking about is more active. So those are two kinds of concentration. I'm glad you brought that up actually. Thank you. Okay, well, let's move on to a different... So anyway, what my point is, is that the word concentration is easy to take for granted. but become really intimate with it in Zazen. And our concentration, our feeling, it's safe to say that all of our feelings are not the same.

[51:10]

And we have different emphases and different sensations about how we understand concentration, even though it's all in the same family. It's a lively subject. And very, very central, maybe the most central aspect of Zazen, I'd say. One thing that Gil, in his, I want to just move on to another point, that Gil says in his, about three pages in his short book, that he says, in the book Steps to Liberation. He breaks it down into a kind of formula, although, you know, it's not really a formula. It's like a recipe, but I wouldn't take it too seriously or too exactly, and I don't think he meant it like that.

[52:12]

But his formula is 25% in concentration, 25% is intentional effort, 25% is receptivity or equanimity, and 50% is letting go. So that's just something that Gil has come up with. But it resonated with me is that those elements, maybe not in those proportions, but those elements are really three really good elements. The intentional effort, you know, just take effort to sit straight for 40 minutes or to sit with a posture that's alive and upright for 40 minutes. Yeah. a mind that's just not wandering all over the block. Or if it is, then you're aware of that that's happening. And then receptivity or equanimity is just being aware of what's happening, just to take it in without a goal other than just to be with it.

[53:14]

And then he gives 50% to letting go, which is just a kind of relaxation of just letting go of of our kind of manic mindedness and attachment to our mental constructions. So I just wonder how that lands on you or how you would maybe jigger those proportions to reflect your own experience more. Ross? Thanks, Ron. When I started hearing all the numbers and techniques and all that, it feels very prescriptive and like a stepladder, like we're doing something, we're going to get something. And I liked what someone said earlier about just concentration and feeling and awareness, like in the room. And I remember Mel talking about Suzuki Roshi sitting and being aware of everyone. There was concentration, but it wasn't just one pointed thing. It was just an awareness that he was perceptive of all things.

[54:21]

uh let's see um there's a saying um zazen isn't a technique it's a gateway to repose and bliss and so what i'm feeling is a lot of technique and i'm wondering if you could say something about repose and bliss how you how you may experience repose and bliss in the midst of this so-called technique that's being discussed tonight? Well, he's saying that 50% is letting go. So that's one way of letting go of technique. And then 25%. Again, Gil is not saying this is like a scientific analysis. He's just coming up with his own experience. I wouldn't take it too literally. But those three elements are really, I think, helpful to pay attention to.

[55:25]

That's why I brought it up. But I don't think Gil would mean it as this has to be like in this proportion or this ratio. That's just his experience. But the three parts that he mentioned all felt real to me. What you're saying that Suzuki Roshi said, we actually have as part of our handout. And so because you brought it up, it's kind of convenient to read it. It's only a paragraph long and pretty simple. And this is about this would be about active concentration versus versus selective concentration. And this is from Zen Mind Beginner's Mind. Actually, it's. It's under a true concentration and not always so, I'm sorry.

[56:28]

You accept your thinking because it is already there. You cannot do anything about it. There is no need to get... This is gonna be a little confusing, but I'll explain it after I read it. There is no need to try to get rid of it. This is not a matter of right or wrong, but how you accept, frankly, with openness of mind what you are doing. That is the most important point. When you practice Zazen, you will accept the you who is thinking about something without trying to be free of the images you have. Oh, here they come. If somebody is moving over there, oh, he is moving. And if he stops moving, your eyes remain the same. This is how your eyes will set or see. when you are not watching anything special. In that way, your practice includes everything, one thing after another, and you do not lose your calmness of mind. So that's his one chapter on concentration, and that's one of the key things that he says.

[57:32]

And what he, in Not Always So, it comes from a lecture that he gave at Tassajara, where he was talking about him being at the beginning, at the head of the zendo, You know, he's a teacher. He's watching everybody sitting. And he says he doesn't move around and watch each person visually. He watches everybody at the same time. And then when somebody moves, he notices that one person moves. But it's not like he's zeroing in on each person and then going around a circle. So that's the active concentration. And that's what he's getting at. But I understand that it feels very... At first glance, it feels very kind of prescriptive, and this is the way it is in those proportions. Karen? How would you explain the difference between right concentration and right mindfulness? That's a really good question.

[58:33]

Well, I always... usually go with my first thought, but I really don't have a thought about that. I think mindfulness can be moving around a lot. Mindfulness can be shifting from those four foundations. I'm just sort of making this up as I go, but this is what occurs to me. And then somebody else can weigh in too. That in mindfulness, I'm constantly moving between all those four foundations. Concentration, they usually stay with a more singular focus. For me, it's on my breath and my belly. And then on my back when I'm starting to feel twisted or, you know, I have scoliosis. So think about straightening out my posture. But concentration is more specific.

[59:43]

And mindfulness is more general. That's how I would say it. But it's a really good question. We shouldn't take anything for granted. Mira's heart and then Mira. I'm just reading from Gil his definition, which is just interesting to consider. In the same way that right, mindfulness is a journey of deepening self-knowledge. Right concentration moves us inward toward experiencing progressively deeper wellsprings of stillness and clarity. So it almost feels like it's just an elaboration, a deepening and an elaboration as he's describing it. Yeah. Thank you. Mira and then Janae. So I agree with what you said, and I've asked that question to different teachers.

[60:51]

And to me, the concentration is the one-pointedness, the specific object that you stay with and make an effort towards staying with it. And mindfulness is more general. So you can be mindful of a lot of different things at the same time, sound and sights. body sensations and mental formations, all of that that was spoken about earlier. So I think that's the difference that I understand. And Karen's question about the bliss, that's what you get from the jhana states. Jhana states, when you get into a deep concentration, you get bliss. You get, yes, bliss. What can I say? Joy. Equanimity, all of that comes from the jhana states. And it's hard. It's really hard. And but that's where you find it.

[61:53]

And of course, one prop, one prop. I'm sorry. Practice that. The Buddha knew those states. That's true. There in my. The jhanas are in the sutras. And actually, they predate Buddhism. Exactly. They come from Hinduism. Yeah, that's right. And Ayya Kama was the teacher who really taught the jhana state most recently. And there are certain teachers like Lee Brasington, who is her protege who teaches the jhana states. Yeah. But that Zen comes from Donna, just like you said. I think we don't talk about that enough. Yeah, yeah. Okay, Janae? So when you are mentioning or when you started talking about concentration, I noticed I...

[63:05]

kind of reacted against it. I mean, I resonate more with mindfulness or mindful awareness. And I like, Luminous Heart, I like your definition of being of presence in the present. Because concentration seems to me, I think of furrowed brows. I think of efforting. And so I want to steer clear of that if I can. But it's interesting what Mira just said and Ron, what you said in Not Always So, because Suzuki Roshi used that example of taking in the whole zendo. I would think of that as being mindful of it rather than concentrating because, I mean, he used concentration as mindful awareness, it seemed to me. He wasn't concentrating. Yeah. on individuals. He was just, you know, he was holding the state of awareness of everything.

[64:11]

And then he noticed what sort of was aberrant there or what sort of moved in the stillness. So, yeah, it's hard to, I think it's hard to really get a clear delineation between the two. Well, the thing about Suzuki Roshi's example was He was staying with that awareness, only that awareness. He didn't talk about being aware of anything else except the whole room and everybody's posture. And then if he saw something that was moving or seemed, I don't know what, but that got his attention in particular, then he would look over at that. But he would still keep his eye on the whole room. So he was very focused in that one pointedness, even though it included the whole room. And even though he could break that if somebody was having a difficult time and he could see that.

[65:15]

And then he would go back to his one pointedness of seeing the whole room. He was really fixed on staying with that. Okay. It still seems to me like that act of taking it all in. is more like mindful awareness and then concentrating on somebody who maybe needed help or whatever. That's just how it comes to me. Okay. Judy was first and then last person will be Lynn. Last person for this particular subject. Judy? Yeah, thanks, Ron. I'm really appreciating the nuances of this conversation. What's coming up for me is, and what feels so important in this story you've shared of Suzuki Roshi's, is that we're talking about right mindfulness and right concentration.

[66:21]

So that's really important. And fundamentally, The right is in right relationship and that we are the moment of being mindful that we are not separate, that we belong to each other. And how Selah, how upright, being upright, how ethical behavior, how widening and deepening our perspective is really, really key. and that right mindfulness and right concentration themselves are not separate. And I think the other important thing in Suzuki Roshi's story is the Mahayana understanding of these teachings, and particularly when Ajana gets

[67:26]

interpreted as it becomes Chan and Zen and how Dogen particularly elucidates this, that these things, we are coming up together. So my sense of right concentration, like Thich Nhat Hanh talks about right mindfulness. He uses the word sponsor. So I think of it sort of like an AA or Al-Anon where you have a sponsor, where you have a good friend who has your back, but also keeps you accountable in a helpful way. So we could say that's a Dharma friend. That's the Buddha together with a Buddha. Wake up together. And then, but there's a subject object there. because by definition, there's a relationship of two, you and the good friend.

[68:27]

And in the moment of truly meeting in that, subject and object penetrate one another, and that's right concentration. And that's why in Suzuki Roshi's story, the awareness of the whole room and the ability to notice the one as co-arising within that. And then, of course, the ability to respond appropriately because there's a relationship to the individual and the whole as one continuous interplay. And I think these things are really hard to talk about. So what I'm appreciating is that in this conversation, it feels like we're teasing that out because we're expressing from our own practice. And that to me is really a wonderful benefit of these classes.

[69:28]

So thank you. Yeah, it should be experiential more than theoretical. Thank you, Judy. Lynn? I say should. I hope it could be experiential rather than theoretical. I was in what Gill had written. I love, and I think it goes to Janais' query, too, where he says, he's saying, you know, this isn't laser-like focus in the control tower in the mind. Rather, we cultivate it by physically and mentally settling our attention onto the object of focus with real intimacy. So I think this object of focus, you know, with intimacy, that can be any size. That could be the whole world. That could be the whole Zendo. But what is your focus of intimacy and this deepening into this stillness and intimacy?

[70:38]

And the mindfulness is even more self-awareness. And then when you go to, and then, No self. I just found what he said in this on page 83 really goes to, you know, this isn't about using brute force and about balancing this intenseness with letting go into the object that comes. Anyway, it just seems wonderful balance there. I don't think he's meaning it in that only a narrow focus way. But it's a purposeful focus. Yeah. Yeah, the word intimate comes up quite often in Gil's language, which I really appreciate. I can read the paragraph you're talking about because I have it right here. Concentration in meditation is not a laser-like focus originating in the control tower.

[71:39]

I just love that image. In the mind. Rather, we cultivate it physically and mentally. settling our attention onto the object of focus with real intimacy. It requires letting go of distracting thoughts instead of forcibly pushing them away. To do this, it helps calm whatever mental energy is involved in any thinking. Establishing firm but soft intentness to stay focused is also helpful. Balancing this intentness with letting go into the object of concentration is useful. Veal uses the word useful. He's very kind of humble. He's just trying not to give us too much advice, but he's just saying this could be useful if you absorb what I'm saying. Okay, well, let's move on a little bit.

[72:45]

Oh, I just wanted to make a point that's just, it's not really connected with what we've just been talking about, but overall, in terms of a distracted mind, my feeling, or having, this is my personal thing, that the reason that we have a mind which is so active, and compulsive and busy so much. And I think, I don't know if urban people are more busy-minded than rural people. But the reason that we have that is because we've evolved into that. That's what makes us such powerful beings. We rule the earth and we're probably destroying the earth. We're not necessarily wise, but evolutionarily, we've developed this wonderful power of thought. which other animals and critters don't have to our extent.

[73:56]

And so to respect the fact that this power also cuts both ways. We have this great power, but we're not really adept at using it and integrating it as well as we could. But to have respect for the fact that our minds are so powerful and that there's a reason for that. That's nature at work. over millions of years, creating that in human beings in a way that the other living beings on the planet, at least to date, haven't been able to do. So we're in charge. And just to have respect for that. I just wanted to get that advertising. We were talking about the jhanas, and I'm coming back to that a little bit. When Gil mentions the hindrances, he does it kind of offhandedly without

[75:16]

I don't want to look for the paragraph right now where he talks about hindrances. He mentions the word. Anyway, he talks about the hindrances. And I just thought that it's interesting that we talk about the jhanas, which are these eight or nine states of increasingly refined concentration to, you know, being almost like nothingness. But the gateway to that is unless we can let go of the hindrances, the five hindrances, we can't even get to the first jhana. And which has always been interesting to me to have something as... as concrete as that as being a barrier.

[76:17]

And it's kind of challenging, interesting, because the jhanas are so refined and the different states of concentration as they progress are more and more rarefied from most people's experience. But the five hindrances are something common to all of us. And I'll just... read that list again of the, of the hindrances, which prevent us from even entering the first John of concentration. And there's different, a little bit different than what somebody else said, but don't take it too seriously. I mean, in terms of the actual words that describe the five hindrances, sensory desire, you know, our sense, our sense of pleasure related to our senses and how We're driven to that. I have a little container of granola, a little yogurt on it after dinner every night.

[77:31]

I really look forward to that. There's something sweet about that and milky about that. And I'm a little embarrassed about how much I like doing, I like that. And if I don't have that, I say, well, that is not right. Now, you know, I'm 73 years old and I'm like that. So, you know, I think we all have that. That's just a small one. So sensual desire is really important. I mean, it's as simple as the food that we crave, not to mention sex and, you know, all the other good feelings that we can have. And then anger or ill will. This is what I, you know, I think that each of us has one of these hindrances that's predominant, the more predominant in our personality. So anger is the second one. And I think that my own take on Sojin was that of all these five, the anger was or irritation was more common to him.

[78:35]

Now, he would not agree. He never agreed with that, but he said something else, but I don't buy it. I think that anger, you know, but the wonderful thing about Sojin was, in my estimation, was that his anger was always designed, always in some level trying to help us. Even though he was genuinely irritated. Why don't we say angry? He was irritated and we could feel that. There was something underneath that that was driving to help us, even though he was definitely feeling irritated. At the same time, he was trying to help us, so that was my feeling about him. And laziness is the third one. Ron, are you saying that irritations can be a hindrance or a helpful, depending on how we use them? I'm saying they can be a hindrance if we're attached to them. So your yogurt and granola thing, soja's irritation or anger or whatever, could either be a hindrance?

[79:40]

or a help, depending on how we use it. That's true. Or it could have a little bit of both. But I think it's the attachment quality that's the problem. Okay, thank you. And sloth and torpor or laziness. I mean, zazen takes a lot, you know, to get to sit in a busy life, to be able to sit zazen with any kind of regularity and intensity. It's hard. Late practice is not easy if you haven't noticed it already. And, you know, so, you know, having that energy to, even if you're not in the mood, you know, sit down and just do Zazen, let alone come over to the Zendo when you have all kinds of things to do all day, takes a certain kind of energy and laziness just doesn't work that well. Skeptical doubt is the fourth one.

[80:42]

You know, somebody is always, and I have some of that, you know, being a contrarian. And if somebody says something, I want to see what's the other side of that. But skeptical doubt could also, doubt could also be something that's valuable too. But somebody who's obsessed with, or not obsessed, but falls into doubting over and over again and again, That's their pattern. It could be a problematic for not being able to just embrace or accept something as it came to you. And finally is restlessness and anxiety. Remorse is not in the descriptions that I've seen. So I don't know about remorse. But restlessness and anxiety or worry and flurry is one of the words they use sometimes. I think that's the type I am. So I'm aware of that kind of anxiety as being the biggest problem.

[81:49]

And anger is just not a problem for me at all, hardly. Remorse is on Ty's list. Yeah. But I haven't seen that before, so I don't know about that. Anyway, just to point out that these... These are five hindrances, and we all have at least one of them pretty strongly, likely. And it's our attachment to those qualities that's problematic in terms of accessing the more refined levels of concentration. Does anybody want to comment on that? My comment would be I think I have all five. Some more than others and different times different, but I don't think they're absent from. And yes, there are seeds in our storehouse at least rise up.

[82:55]

You don't feel one stronger than the others? No, different times, different ones. Okay. Ron, I'm aware we're about two minutes from time. I have five minutes, but. Okay. Yeah. We'll go by your clock. Okay. Just to see. So, yeah, we are coming to a close. So what's a good way to close? Is it? Well, what? I'm just curious who's at Green Gulch who's watching, but we won't let that go for now. Mary and Jerry. Huh? Mary and Jerry. Mary and Jerry are at Green Gulch? We can't see you because you're out of focus. I think it, Ron, it's Dean.

[83:58]

I think it makes sense to remind ourselves that we can make this very complicated. And it is a difficult practice, but it's a pretty simple practice. Yes. And all these things that we're talking about are things that we can make complicated and grab onto. And they can also be fairly simple. I agree. Thank you. Not for agreeing, just for letting me talk. Okay. Okay, so we should wind up. Luminous Hearts, you want the last word? I don't know about last one, but I'm very happy that we were all together and sharing this.

[85:01]

Okay. Good to just talk. For me, it's just good to explore on the ground what these things, what these teachings mean and how we experience them and how we work with them. So thank you all for participating. All right. Let's just say good night then. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you. Ciao. Peace. Good night. Good night, everyone. Thank you.

[85:41]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_94.27