Good evening. We'll start with the verse. An unsurpassed, penetrating and perfect dharma is rarely met with, even in a hundred thousand million kalpas, having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept. I vow to taste the truth of the Tatataka's words. Good evening. It's really good to see all of you. So there is a koan that in the short version says, one asks another, what is the teaching of a lifetime? And the response is an appropriate response. is the Buddha's lifetime, Shakyamuni's lifetime.

[01:05]

So what did Shakyamuni teach throughout his lifetime? What's the most important thing? And the response was an appropriate response, which is why I called it appropriate response. Speech as a field of intimate practice. It's often intimate one-on-one to communicate, to connect. And it's often very intimate inside ourselves, what we choose to say and not say, how we work with whatever is arising to communicate as skillfully as we can. I wanted to talk about speech and communication, partly because it's been an ongoing area of interest for me for many, many years. And also there seemed to be interest when I gave a talk last fall that included my experience of working with the book Difficult Conversations at Tassajara when I was director. And also, just at this time, it seems like there's a lot of weird talk going on in the world, a lot of really harmful, hurtful speech, and some amazingly beautiful, inspiring speech as well.

[02:22]

If you haven't seen the public statement by Becca Good, Renee Nicole Good's wife, I couldn't believe. It's incredibly beautiful and inspiring. And there's a lot of that too. Not enough. So I thought we could maybe all in our own individual ways contribute to more uplifting speech in the world and also be more skillful in our own lives. Whatever that looks like for each of us. This is not a political speech class by any means. It's just... That's the background that I'm aware of at this time, and I just wanted to name how that impacts all of us because it's impacting so many people and the ripples spread. But they spread in the other way, too. They spread the good as well. So... So I'd like to start by kind of going around.

[03:27]

I said why I was interested in doing this class, and I'd really like to hear why you decided to be in this class, other than that there's a class and you're just going to join it. And what do you hope to receive from it or learn or anything connected to that? I know almost all of you, but maybe not everyone does. So if we could just say your name, I'll kind of indicate where to go. And just say your name and then that. Microphone, please. Yes. I'm Barbara, an infrequent visitor here, and speech is just such a connection to other people, and I just wanted to learn more about it.

[04:27]

Hi. I'm to be known at Berkley Zen Center as the other Linda. So anyway, I'll... I came for two reasons. One is I'm very much involved with specific questions about Buddhist responses to the violence and difficulty in the world. Very much involved in that. And two, I want to get to know you better. Hello, I'm Jeff. I'd say that historically, if I look at my life, speech is one of the precepts I've struggled the most with. And so just looking to practice more. My name is Lisa. I'm very interested in the next appropriate step.

[05:35]

And I felt very unskilled about speech my entire life. And then that it should be intimate is very important because I feel such shame at my lack of skill, especially in social situations. I'm Laurie. I am really, as far as practice goes, it seems like endless to practice with speech. It seems like a practice edge still after many, many years, so I just want to keep working that edge. My name is Dina, and I'm new to the Zen Center. Could you say your name again? My name is Dina, and I'm new to the Zen Center. I've been practicing meditation and Buddhism for 20 years, but new to Zen. And I'm interested because speech is an ongoing challenge for all of us.

[06:39]

Can we be wise about it? And also as part of the Eightfold Path, I just thought, you know, can one ever learn too much about it? I don't think so. And I think it's the practice that's really important. Thanks. I'm Hannah. The first reason is because you're teaching, and I wanted to come to the class to confess that. And I'm just very aware of interactions with others, and speech is part of that, wanting it to be positive. And we'll also check in with people online. Go ahead. My name's Peter, and I think I took this class because I do a lot of talking in my various roles. In life, I'm required to communicate a lot verbally and written, which I also consider speech.

[07:41]

Very much of that all day, most days. And so I would like to be, I would like to say less and better and just be more, I guess, refined maybe, careful, more aware of how my words might land. And, yeah, just do a better job. I'm Julianne. My drummer name is Onryu. And I just, I try to show up for every class here. But I also, like many of you have said, I also struggle with speech. And I think... You know, having the appropriate response is always the most challenging thing. Like just being able to be honest and at the same time respectful is something I think about a lot.

[08:47]

So I just, yeah. I'm Karen. My Dharma name is Ryuki. And it's nice to see you, Linda. So I wanted to... come to the i live in berkeley and have been an infrequent flyer um but so i'm trying to get back into buddhist shape for one thing um and yeah the timing is really good because i like what you're speaking to about sort of the polarization that we see around us around language oh i'm a little too close okay thanks um i'm just trying to find my way in the positive algorithm of speech on a sort of big picture level and also in my personal life as well. I'm Jeff. It's nice to see everybody. Pardon me for being late. The reason I'm here is I'm very fond of words.

[09:50]

I like words. I have a pretty close affinity with them. And I'm always interested in being more mindful, not only of the words that I use, but in how they progress. How do I walk through a difficult conversation? How do I ask for something I don't know how to ask for? How do I muster the faith to drop something that I don't know how it's going to be received? And so I'm interested in how you think about being mindful of speech and how everybody else here thinks about being mindful of speech. Because I always learn from how other people do it. And so I'm grateful that you're doing this. Thank you. And I'm Ellen, and I'm the class coordinator, which is one reason that I'm here. And beyond that, I don't really know why I'm here. So we'll go to the online people. I will spotlight people online so you will see your face.

[10:51]

And then please go ahead and unmute. Maybe even unmute earlier so there's less of a lag. We can call our name as well. Peter. Yes, please say your name. Peter Overton. My name is Peter Overton. And speech has been in abiding interest of mine for decades. I'm not very good at it. And... I wish I'm taking every opportunity to learn more, and I'm really enjoying the fact that we're having this class, and look forward to it. Thank you. Desiree. I'm Ikishun Desiree, and I actually practice with the Red Cedar community here in Washington. But my teacher, Andrea Thatch, really strongly suggested that I take this class.

[11:54]

And as I looked at the description, I thought, yeah, this is really great because right now I'm very focused on examining why, when and why I open my mouth to say something, you know, and what it is really looking at it deeply when I'm wanting to share my story or, you know, Just examining that, and also, you know, I just feel like it's such an ongoing thing, whether I don't say enough or whether I say too much or say it too quickly and then, you know, think back, oh, you know, and so just really, really being mindful about all of those components of speech. So I'm really looking forward to the class. Thank you. Jack, did you minimize one of the pieces on the screen here? Go ahead. I am Nancy. I came to the class because I want to become more courageous in my outward expression and to create more intimacy both in my words and my actions and just to kind of be able to speak both intimately and more freely but also to know when not to stop and when to listen.

[13:14]

So I'm very interested in the whole concept and continuing to practice an appropriate response. Sue Owen. I'm Sue Osier. There was something about the title of the class and the fact that you were teaching it that just drew me. I didn't think about it. I just knew I wanted to be here. Thank you. Pauline. I'm going to piggyback on what Sue said. This is Colleen. It just compelled me from the moment I saw the description. I think a lot of it has to do with I come from a family that doesn't say much, and yet I've wedded myself to words as a writer. And I do think writing is a path for right speech also. I feel more challenged in the speaking realm. So endless continuing education for me.

[14:18]

on this subject. Blake. I was just checking in with the audio. And if people online, if you're not speaking, maybe you can turn off your microphones. And my second thought, just as you were doing the introduction, Linda, is how can people come away from speaking with me in an uplifted fashion as an appropriate response. Because as a professional, I also speak for a living, and I tend to shut people down out of expediency. So maybe how can I really cultivate kindness and leave people feeling better? Were you able to hear that? I know his voice was quiet. Blake basically said he speaks a lot and sometimes has to... shut people down to, he teaches, and he'd like to be more, you know, open up more to people.

[15:22]

Margaret. I guess I'm here because I bought the book Nonviolent Communication, I think, five years ago, and I've been lazy and haven't read it. And so this is a way to hold myself accountable with others to maybe start to explore that skill a little bit more. And I tend to be overly transparent in my thoughts. And maybe I could learn to take a beat and communicate in a way that will have a better outcome for all in moments where things are maybe getting intense. Libby and Mary. I'm here because I'm conflict-averse and I'm looking for the courage to speak up. This is Mary, and I think one of the most important feelings for me in community is feeling heard and also hearing others.

[16:34]

I mean, I'm assuming that's a need that everyone has, and so I'm interested in how to do that better. Carol, Paul. Oh, excuse me, Nina, you were next, and then Carol. So I was delighted when I saw that you, Linda, were going to teach on something that is so immediate and so ever-present in our lives, this speech. And so that's why I'm here. I'm Carol. And some other people have expressed what I want to also learn more about. In these times, when is it appropriate to say something? When is it appropriate just to listen?

[17:35]

And if I say something, how can I do that without judgment? but really with that deep listening and responding in a way that someone can be open to what I'm saying. Jim, Herb. I've always been very interested in language. I've spent a lot of my career involved with language. I also haven't finished Marshall Rosenberg's book, but I'm in the middle of it. So we shouldn't feel bad about that. But I feel like we're in a time in particular right now where speech is so incredibly important, where our speech is how we're going to get ourselves out of this incredible crux that we're in, if we can use it correctly. I think it's only through speech. And I know from my own experience, when I've spoken unkindly, is the best way to put it,

[18:42]

how hard it is then to write that situation if possible at all and so i want to develop skills to speak more kindly in general um about difficult things michael i'm michael um i uh loved your dharma talk last year and so love that you're kind of making a class building on what you had started i think last fall and particularly in these fraught and perilous times. It just seems a very, very timely and appropriate response to consider speech and consider speech as a sangha like this. And so that's why I'm here. I'm excited. Ken. Hi, I'm Ken Folson. I've been noticing more and more how... Language embeds judgment, assumptions, expectations, so many things that in our practice we strive, that we let go of to be in the moment, but our habits of language often catch us.

[20:05]

So I'd like to learn how to free myself from those habits and to speak from a place of openness and transparency. Yeah, to be perfectly open. Sandeep? I just enjoy being in community and I think the class is an amazing opportunity to really realize and understand words matter. And when words are both true and kind, they do change worlds. Erna. Hi, I'm Erna Andre. So, yeah, it's an appropriate response. I hear it a lot in Buddhist teaching, and so I wanted to hear... what Linda's contribution to her understanding of these teachings is.

[21:09]

And then I guess that's the main reason my class, but, you know, additionally, I see like, to me, they seem like strange things written about speech. And I think they were trying to be helpful, but I remember like on the listserv, there was a nice list of things from somebody, you know, on, you know, lists of behaviors and stuff. But it says, like, if you can't say something kind, be vague. And I find that, like, I find that really jarring. Like, so I'm just sort of wanting to kind of understand appropriate response because that didn't fit in with something I consider appropriate response, vagueness. Roja. It's Roja. Roja. Hi, everyone. I'm Roja. I practice with Lucy Hsiao in San Francisco.

[22:12]

I have a leadership role in a very fast-paced space in a tech company. It's a kind of role where there are not a lot of women. And usually in those kinds of spaces, women are not, you know, they don't take a lot of space and they don't speak up as much. On the other hand, I am a very loud person and I do take up space. And I actually personally struggle with reactivity and how quickly I respond. And especially when things are moving fast, then I become faster and faster in my response. So there's this really hard question of how, you know, these two forces from those two sides. And so I struggle with it a lot. And so this seemed like something that I would benefit from. Leslie and Jake. Yes, I'm going to go first. I grew up in a family where there was the saying, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

[23:21]

Some may remember that. And I've always been kind of a quieter person. So I'm just curious to... hear what you have to say, and I certainly could use some pointers with just talking with people and being in a meaningful way. Thanks. I'm Jake. It's interesting for me, I think I recognize an appropriate response. I make it, and I also... I'm quickly aware of when it's a reactive response. And I'm very interested in that split second or so, any length of time, but the thought, the emotion, and then what comes out of your mouth and how to pause more before I speak.

[24:23]

And if I do that, I think that will be a good first step. Heather. Hi, I'm Heather. Nice to see everyone. I love how people express themselves. I just love the beauty of the way words show what's in somebody's interior life and their soul. And sometimes it... lands and sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes having inappropriate speech can crack something open where then you practice appropriate speech and you can make these leaps forward. So I just want to be inspired by how other people think about how they express themselves and how that lands and then how you follow up after that. Margaret.

[25:27]

I was hoping to postpone a response. I'm ill-prepared. I'd like to gather my thoughts a little bit. I just jumped into the screen tonight. Okay. Kabir. Hi, everyone. Thank you so much. Yeah, for me, it was a no-brainer. I looked at the title, and I said yes, because I'm really tired of hurting people with my speech. It's been with me since I remember, and my father had it. As a matter of fact, the reason that he passed away was because he couldn't control his anger, and he came out with it from the speech. And he was struck in the middle of his forehead with a two-by-four. And that led to his stroke and everything else. But at one time, he was a general.

[26:33]

Next thing you know, he's, you know, so I believe I have inherited that fire. And I'm just trying to figure out how to, you know, harness it to put it to some good use. And I cannot get rid of it. I'm learning to start to communicate with this that is driving it. You know, speeches. But what's driving my speech? Where's the fire? What's triggering it? You know, somebody cutting me off has nothing to do with, you know, but... Where is the source? So I hope that that will shine a light. And I really appreciate what I've heard so far from everybody, because those are also all my reasons.

[27:38]

So thank you very much. Katie, did you want to speak? Sure. Sorry. Thanks for... Thank you, Ken, for the encouragement. I think so much comes out through speech, what we intend and what we don't intend, and being able to be kind and thoughtful through speech, something that... I really hope to do as a parent. And so this is an especially important and sweet time to focus on it. So thank you. I think I'm last. I'm Karen. And I could write an encyclopedia on all the mistakes I feel I've made regarding speech in my life.

[28:48]

But tonight, Or for this class, what's in my mind a lot is reflecting on the things I didn't say when I wasn't forthcoming or completely honest. And in these times that are very frightening in this country, I don't want to have kept my mouth shut. And... I feel overwhelmed by what is going on, but I really want to figure out how to speak skillfully and honestly and practice the bodhisattva way. Thank you all so much. I so appreciate taking the time to do this and just to hear from everyone because my feeling about the class is that it's not like I'm sitting up here and communicating something to all of you, but that we're in conversation together, we're in dialogue together, and we'll be doing lots of that in different ways.

[30:11]

Yeah, so thank you all very much. I wanted to say a little bit about... the Buddha's teachings on right speech, and to just comment on them a little bit. Oh, and I wanted to say that if you have a question, please just raise your hand and we'll do it at the time rather than like waiting to the end when you can't remember and we can't remember the context anymore. So that's also part of the dialogue, the conversation in here. So the Buddha lived 2,500 years ago. And at that time, there was only the spoken word person to person. No written language, no electronic communication, none of that. It was all face-to-face spoken word. So the guidelines and suggestions he gave were quite specific to that because there wasn't anything else.

[31:19]

And these days, that is... I think for many of us, except in our closest relationships, the smallest part of our communications. We do so much online in one way or another, whether it's Zoom or phone or email. A lot of the communication we have is pretty hasty, you know, just like trying to get through all the emails. So this is a really different field of practice. So just to... bring that into awareness. And, you know, in the beginning of the Buddhist teachings, there wasn't a vinya, there wasn't the code of conduct for the monastics. There were just people practicing together. But bit by bit, he came to realize that there needed to be some rules, there needed to be some guidelines. So it developed and changed over time and continued to change over the centuries as it moved from country to country and culture to culture. So in a sense, I'm hoping that we can think about what would be, you know, appropriate response in this time.

[32:28]

What are some practices? I'm hoping that each of you will, like, identify, you know, as Karen just did, an area, hopefully one, but it could be more than one, that you would like to most focus on and think about how you might want to practice. You know, what you might want to do with that, what you might want to explore. And maybe you could even... you know, pair up with somebody or find a few people that are interested in the same thing. So Konjun Galen Godwin Roshi, who's the abbot at Houston Zen Center, about 10 years ago gave a talk at the American Zen Buddhist Teachers Association on right speech because there was a lot of difficulty with several members of the AZTA. on the listserv. They were quite... Yes, I know. It's shocking, isn't it? So they were of the more explosive and impulsive variety and very challenging and took up a lot of space.

[33:34]

So she gave a talk, and I just want to share a few things from it, from the transcript of her talk. Kashiv was talking about the power of words in the time of the Buddha. When we use the term right speech, the issue is already embedded in an early time in Buddhist discourse. Guidelines about speech were literally about words spoken aloud in the hearings of others, and the teachings were presented only orally for some time after the Buddha's death. So as I was saying, it's significant. It presumed that words would be spoken to other beings in the same physical space. And she brings up the point, it's possible that the guidelines based on this presumption can't cover the situations we now encounter. We're talking one-to-one on Zoom, but you all know it's really different on Zoom because you can't see a person's whole body, you can't feel them, all of that.

[34:39]

She says, when the Buddha teaches, as recorded in the Pali Canon, that speech should be true, beneficial, at the right time, affectionately spoken, and spoken with a mind of goodwill, we can imagine that the speaker could gauge the timeliness or the benefit by sensing the people around him or her. What does timeliness mean in written speech? I mean, some people are good about figuring out a scheduled send of your email. But there isn't much else you can do about that. What is the difference between writing in the sense of developing ideas and communication that blurs the distinction between speaking and writing as on the Internet? These are just challenges that we have. This is our context that we're working in. So right speech is the third of the eight factors of the Eightfold Noble Path, and it belongs to what's been called the virtue or shila or upright ethical conduct division of the path along with right action and right livelihood.

[35:56]

And here's the basic definition. And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, and from idle chatter. This is called right speech. And this is interesting because I think most of us would probably do pretty well on abstaining from lying, divisive speech, and abusive speech. And I don't know, I engage in idle chatter. It's fun. And this is a group of monastics, right? And there's also the aspect of, yes, it's idle chatter, but it's also connection. And we're not hanging out with people all the time. I mean, the monks would go off for most of the year and they'd practice alone, but when they were together, they were doing an intensive retreat. When you do that, you're with people all the time and you're very intimate with them. And it's a lot of people in close quarters, so of course you're going to be like that.

[37:00]

And of course, there were real distinctions between the ordained clergy and lay people. You know, in most of the world that is still the case to this day. There are real distinctions there. And the relationship was in a sense that all the monastics were practicing for the sake of everybody else who couldn't do that because they had families to take care of and work to do and all of that. And the lay people supported the monastics. So... You know, there's this phrase in Buddhism, you know, worthy of offerings. And there's bodhisattva, worthy of offerings, you know. And that was important, you know, to be worthy of offerings, to not just be gabbing. But here we're in such a different situation. So it's like, I'm not coming down one side or the other. I'm just saying it's different.

[38:01]

And it's something to navigate and to consider. all the gradations of this. And the Buddha highlighted the dangers of lying. For the person who transgresses in one thing, I tell you, there is no evil deed that is not to be done. Which one thing? This, telling a deliberate lie. So that was like seen as really, really bad. And I... I was wondering if part of that sense for the Buddha might be because he was a prince, you know, and the nobles were, you know, that was part of being a noble person, not just, you know, a corrupt person, but being a good person and holding that up. Once the Buddha spoke to his son Rahula,

[39:02]

Soon after the boy was ordained, I think he was probably around middle school age. And I've wondered, was there a particular impetus for him to speak to his son this way? But one day, the Buddha came to Rahula, pointed to a bowl with a little bit of water in it, and he asked him, Rahula, do you see this bit of water left in the bowl? And Rahula answered, yes, sir. So little, Rahula, is the spiritual achievement of one who is not afraid to speak a deliberate lie. Over and over again, the Buddha talked about the corrosive impact of lying. The five remembrances are I am the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have actions as my arbitrator.

[40:04]

Whatever I do, for good or for evil, that will I fall heir. And that's the translation of the Buddha's words. And I really like Thich Nhat Hanh's paraphrase of this. My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand. So, you know, we talk about acts of body, speech, and mind. These are all considered actions. So, really, and I, in the Buddhist time, I think mostly it was actions that were highlighted, but in our time, speech is like so pervasive, partly because it's so far-reaching. Speak only words that do no harm. One should speak only that word by which one would not torment oneself nor harm others.

[41:05]

That word is indeed well spoken. One should speak only pleasant words, words which are acceptable to others. What one speaks without bringing evils to others is pleasant. And again, reflecting on, because, you know, it's like... This sounds kind of yucky. I'm just going to be nice, like Nambi Pambi, nice to everybody. I don't think that's what the Buddha was meaning. But I think it was about fostering harmony in the Sangha and harmony with the lay people who were their supporters, you know, to really focus on being kind. And, of course, we don't know what the original word is. This was the translation. So... He also talks about five keys to right speech. And he says, monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless and unfaulted by knowledgeable people.

[42:08]

Which five? It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of goodwill. And then he goes through like five different cases of like whether that's all present or not and whether you should or should not say them. And mostly it's like in the case of words that the Tatataka knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, unendearing, and disagreeable to others, he does not say them. So if it's like anything dropped out, but there is a really important exception. In the case of words that the Tatataka knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing and disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Wow. That hits home because I'm on the conflict-averse side.

[43:13]

You know, the importance of speaking up when it's necessary. He also said, monks, do not engage in wordy warfare. And then he gives various quotes, examples of wordy warfare. This is in the Pali Canon. You don't understand this dharma and discipline. I understand this dharma and discipline. How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices. I have the right practice. You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards. Et cetera, et cetera. But it ends with, your statement is refuted. You are talking rubbish. You are in the wrong. Get out of that if you can. And you forgot to mention, well, it wasn't, you know,

[44:19]

Ten grave precepts, you know, not praising self at the expense of others. I keep mentioning this because it's so relevant. You know, of the ten grave precepts, four are about speech. That's 40%, almost half. It's really a lot. Let's see. There's a thought. I'll come back. Oh, yes. So one of the instances when the Buddha definitely said some things that were unendearing and unpleasant to hear were talking about his cousin, Devadatta, who tried to kill him a few times and caused a severe schism in the Sangha. And his speech was extremely direct. And... the Buddhas, in calling this out as a harmful person.

[45:23]

And I didn't used to have much of a sense of it. I was just like kind of, ooh, that's painful. Buddha's not being nice. You know, I have that kind of feeling in my body. But with what's going on in the world today, I'm like, I get it. I get it now in a different way of just calling out what's happening, calling out really bad behavior that is not okay. So it's interesting, the context that we're in, affects our speech a lot. So let's break into dyads. Let's see. Two, two, [...] two. Good. So break into dyads, and each person take two minutes, and then I'll ring a bell, and then switch people, and then you can have... two minutes to talk to each other, and then we'll come back to a group. Okay?

[46:25]

Oh, we're going to 8.30. I thought we were going to 8.30, right? Excellent. So the topic is, well, we talked somewhat about your relationship already with speech and words when we went around, but... What is your sense of your intentions or goals, specific goals around speech? You know, do you already have intentions about it just generally? Or what are you thinking about here? You said them kind of spontaneously going around, but is there something that you could kind of think through enough to kind of have it as a thread through the class to kind of come back to that? I forgot my phone. Does anyone have a phone that I could borrow for a minute? I just do want to use the timer. How much is the total time, Linda?

[47:28]

Six minutes. Okay. But you're going to have to open it for me. So I'm going to start it. So please, timer. So please break up into dyads, whoever's nearby. And you can start now. No, two minutes. Yes. Thank you. Have we started? Yeah, please start.

[48:42]

Sandeep, I think you and I are together. I'm going to mute everyone else. Oh, are we? Okay, got it. Just one minute. Oh, no worries. I'm just trying to figure out how to mute them. Oh, no worries. Take your time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good idea.

[50:03]

um when i was speaking . [...] I don't know why that would be my answer.

[51:06]

I don't know why that would be my answer. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. So,

[52:08]

. [...] Open conversation for two minutes. Yes. Yes.

[53:36]

Thank you. I think it was a healthy, I had a healthy amount. Yeah. So please.

[54:58]

Close and we'll come back together. I'm not sure if we need to do anything on this end to get everybody back. I started a little... Okay, good. And if you could turn, is that on gallery? Yeah, it's just that people are coming back from the breakout rooms. Great. I'll give it a minute. They're not coming back. Oh, right.

[56:03]

Right, because you do it and then it counts down. Here they come. I didn't have anybody in my room. Oh. We didn't like you in our room. Oh. I just realized that this is no way that this was two minutes. That was like, that was a long two minutes. It's like, we've got to get back to our room. Well, it was six minutes total. And Karen, if you could now, or if all of you could now mute yourselves online for now. Okay, they'll be back in 31 seconds.

[57:05]

Great. Okay. And we're back. Okay. Anything just quickly that anyone wants to share about what came up in your dyads? This is really just kind of like touching in. You're not going to... get somewhere. It's just to connect. Jeff. When you were talking your way through what the Buddha was saying about right speech, I kept coming up with examples of people that I think that do that so really nicely. And I also was thinking about the consequences that I feel when I don't engage that way, when I've spoken harshly or when I've berated somebody and spouted off. I get feedback internally almost immediately, and those two things together are a nice concept to work with. And that's sort of how I think about the mindfulness. I hear it, I see it, and then I ruminate with it, and something happens later. Yes, yes, that's great. Yeah, I also came from a family that didn't really communicate at all.

[58:20]

There was a little bit of talking, but not much communicating. So it's been an ongoing journey. One of the things that I found really helpful is looking at people, you know, finding exemplars or models or including in movies and stuff or, you know, I think Walter Cronkite and some people like that was kind of a model for people of like, you know, I mean, there have been media people, you know, radio people through the decades that were like, this voice, the way of presenting things was really felt to be trustworthy. So there are models everywhere. Somebody else have a... Anyone online? Nope? Okay. Actually, Sue O. Okay. Hi, Sue. Hi, thank you. I... Just picked up this piece of paper I sent on the list sort of a while ago, and actually it came up in our dyad with Erna, my dyad with Erna.

[59:32]

One of them is, I really like this, a lot of it is about speech. It's sort of a humorous list. Never put both feet in your mouth at the same time. because then you won't have a leg to stand on. That's one of my favorites. Great. Peter and then Margaret online, and then we'll go to the next thing. This isn't about the dyad, but earlier when you were talking about the five qualities and you talked about... timeliness and how how do you do that with email right and i'm assuming the question is because timely kind of depends on the other person to some degree and if you're sending an email hey you don't know where the other person is or what they're doing and b you don't know when they're going to read it right so it's kind of but i realized that for me

[60:42]

the timeliness of when I send it really matters. Like, there's a time to send something to somebody. And sometimes now, I may have it all written, but now's not the time to send it. Or maybe it's not quite right yet, and I need to read it again tomorrow and change it. So I do think that the timeliness quality really applies even in those kinds of communications. But it's more incumbent upon the sender to be mindful of what energy am I putting out when I push send? Not just what message, but what am I sending out there? And to really know that this is a good time to send this particular message to this person and trust that they'll read it whenever they read it. Yes, and maybe there's times when You know, you can reflect, I really want to tell this person this, and this is during finals week, or they just had a death in the family, or, you know, just actually, even though they're not present, to be thinking about, you know, the circumstances that they're in, context or whatever.

[61:58]

Absolutely. Thank you. Margaret. Yes. I was with Nancy Sweet, and I'd like... really enjoyed it. And we, I'm still struck by what Leslie said about, you know, the phrase, you know, like, you know what I mean? It's being nice to say, you can't say it, you know? And it's like being kind and keeping that as an intention. And for me, I've been stewing on for a long time. There's a Zumba song. I dance Zumba almost every day. And it's like, my love is unconditional. And I'm like, your love is not unconditional. You know, it's like, that's a wonderful ideal maybe, but in some ways it's just, I'm just doing on that. And that would be an appropriate response if you could just love, right? I think it's an ongoing practice and it really never ends.

[63:00]

That's right. We all have our days. Yep. On both sides. Right. Right. Thanks. So, I thought one of the things that we could look at during this time is difficult conversations. And when I was director at Tassajara, I really wanted to learn this because I was really not so good at it. I got into forensic mental health because I was really not very good at those kind of conversations and I had to have them. And the thing that was great about that, I ended up in the internship. I wasn't expecting that that was half of my internship, and it turned out that it was. And I was really grateful for it because, you know, when people get out of the mental hospital or prison, then they have a whole list of agreements, you know, contracts that they're going to follow this to be what's essentially like on parole or probation, yeah.

[64:02]

And... So there's a whole agency of us, and they were great people I was working with. They were really wonderful. And they were extremely compassionate. Every one of them had a spiritual practice and a county agency. And they had excellent boundaries, and they were very good at communicating it because all of us as clinicians were responsible for the behavior of people with mental illness who had committed serious crimes in the community. So that container... of expectation really helped me because I was expected to do certain things, so I did them. And that was great. And there was one person who had trouble doing that. He was very, very kind, but he didn't always hold the container, and I could see that that wasn't actually helpful to them or anyone. So having a container of support is very helpful. So being director was a good container too because I had to

[65:04]

People would walk into my office all the time and, you know, like the head cook walks in. We're not hearing you. Suddenly, you're muted, Linda. Oh, great. Okay. Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? Yes. Excellent. Battery just ran out. We'll replace it. But until then, let's see. Oh, yes, when I was director, I had to learn how to mediate conflicts. Yeah, when the cook walked in and was having a problem with the Fucatan or the person who directs everything, it's like, can we have a mediated conversation? Actually, people didn't ask. They just said, this is the problem and I can't do this anymore and I'm out. I'm like, okay. The repetition was great because I would be like, I learned that all I really had to do was listen to someone.

[66:14]

So I would say, come on in, have a seat, and tell me more. And then I could gather myself while they unloaded. And it was like, I don't have to do as much as I thought here. I don't have to fix things. I just need to listen and see where it's going. So those experiences helped me a lot. I also really wanted to support people to have conversations with each other because there was a feeling at Tassajara like if you had a conflict with somebody but more if you needed to have facilitated conversation, that was a horrible thing and everybody was failing. It was just bad. It was like, oh, my God, you had to have a mediated conversation. Whoa. And I was like, this shouldn't be that hard. So I worked on this for several years, and it actually worked really well.

[67:15]

So I was motivated. So if you want to make changes and it's hard, you have to find a motivation and not just an intention, like what will you get out of this or how can you, yeah, what's the container that will work for you? So what I did with Difficult Conversations, it's not a long book, and it has a lot of examples in it, and it's a great read, but there's a lot of different pieces into it. I did my own cliff notes for myself. I just wrote a summary of them as a study guide of the whole book. So here it is, Difficult Conversations in 25 Pages. And I will send that to all of you so that you can see it in kind of outline form. You can find things when you want it, and you can kind of check out what resonates for you. But I will give you in the last few minutes a very quick overview. He said, first of all, difficult conversations are any conversations that you find difficult.

[68:20]

It doesn't mean it's a generically difficult conversation. It's just one that's difficult for you. And he says a difficult conversation is actually three different conversations. It may be one, two, or all three of these. The first one is the what happened conversation. What's the story here? What's actually going on? And the next one is the feelings conversations. What do we do with our emotions? And I love it that they say, have your feelings or they will have you. And the third one is the identity conversation. What does this say about me? There's two parts of it. Part one is called shift to a learning stance. So what you're really learning about is yourself.

[69:21]

And I like this because it's like, this is so dharmic. It's like structured reflections on your experience. Clearly observe what's happening here. What's going on? What a... How am I thinking? Said the truth assumption. We often fail to question the crucial assumption that our whole stance is built on. I am right and you are wrong. But difficult conversations are seldom about getting the facts right. They're about conflicting perceptions, interpretations, and values. They are not so much about the facts, quote, but what they mean. They're not about what is true, but about what is important. So that's really a shift. It's moving to another level. Internally first, you're reorienting yourself.

[70:24]

The next one is the intention invention. We assume we know the intentions of others when we don't. Worse, when we are unsure about someone's intention, we often decide they're bad. That is, their intentions are bad. But intentions are invisible. We make assumptions about them based on what we observe of people's behavior. But people's intentions are complex, and jumping to conclusions creates more problems. The blame frame. Most difficult conversations focus on who's to blame. Since no one wants to be blamed, blame produces disagreement, denial, and defensiveness. Instead, focus on how each person contributed to the situation, which allows for exploration and healing. I'm sorry, exploration and learning. And so it goes. So that's kind of an overview, and then it just kind of walks you through how you might think about these things.

[71:27]

And you certainly won't resonate with all of it. You'll be like, yeah, yeah, do that, or I just don't feel that. And there will be probably some where you're like, huh, that's interesting. So I'll send this out to you, and we'll probably go through. I was thinking we'd kind of, we have three more classes, so do roughly a... a third of it, and we'll see where we go from there. And if any of you have thoughts or requests during the week and you want to drop me an email, I'd love to hear from you. Any comments before we close? Linda? Just when you were giving, you were reading from the Buddha's teaching on right speech, and then we just kind of... skipped over to the next thing, you know, and now we're talking about difficult conversations, but there were points in there that for me merited real discussion. And not surprisingly, they were things that irritated me or, you know, that I thought were, we shouldn't just take, you know, one of them was pleasant and you dealt with that a little bit.

[72:36]

The other one was divisive and I wanted to talk more about that. Sure, we have a couple, we have about two minutes. Okay, great. Just that I've heard in this current situation that we're all living in, people refusing to touch what I consider to be momentously important matters because that would be divisive. That's a problem to me. Yes, I agree. And it's something that I think the Buddhist community is not very good at. And It's a conversation among many, many, many Buddhist groups going on. And it's, I think, pleasant and agreeable and encouraging speech is not always all that's needed. So, yeah, there are many Buddhists and there are many groups of...

[73:40]

people getting together in, like, there's an interfaith group that's talking about some of this. So I think the standard way of dealing with things is being challenged in a lot of ways, and we haven't quite caught up to it yet. Jeff? Oh, and... So both of you, do you think that in divisive conversation there is a technique or a spirit of holding posture and being upright in these conversations so it doesn't descend into anger and blaming and other kinds of negative things? Does that make sense? I can answer my own. I think each person has a responsibility to not... go into finger pointing, which was why I wanted to talk about difficult conversations. You know, once you start pointing fingers, it gets pretty divisive.

[74:44]

She says, nobody wants to be blamed. But there is definitely a case for speaking truth. And then how do you do that? Because you see different people doing it with different tones, different flavors. Some people you're like, yes, I appreciate how level and peaceful they were when they say that. And other people are like, yeah, and I love Jasmine Crockett because she just puts it out there. So it's individual and there's no opportunity in the public sphere, which I think is why so many Buddhists are hesitant about making a statement or something. Because you're not talking one-on-one. There's no more nuance. You're just putting it out and people are reading it through your filter. It's complicated and we still need to do better. Okay, it's now time.

[75:47]

Is that enough for now? Things are numberless. I vow to awaken with them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. Thank you everyone and good night.

[76:32]

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