on the current war and maybe give people a chance to say something, express themselves. It's been over a month now. It was supposed to be a few weeks. We just did our Bodhisattva ceremony of repentance and taking precepts, reciting precepts. And the first precept is not to kill. So war is pretty offensive to us because it violates this precept. It violates all the precepts. Uh, when, uh, uh, just before, uh, we declared war, the Congress was called in and asked if it was okay.

[01:20]

And, uh, the Congressman said, I'm going to vote to give the president the opportunity to, uh, declare war if he wants to, not because he's going to do that, but it gives him a, a way to, uh, more power to negotiate. That was the excuse. if congressman after congressman used this excuse and two days later, boom. So it's obvious that this is something that people want to do. The reason we're doing this is because it's what we want to do. And so it makes it very difficult to turn around something that a lot of people want to do and have the means to do it. The thing that bothers me the most and the biggest frustration I have is that people do not

[02:37]

use their voting rights. Year after year, less people vote. And then there's the excuse. This is the excuse. There's really no difference between the Republicans and the Democrats. They're all the same now. So what's the difference? What's the use? I hear this over and over again. I'm not a political person. The last thing I want to think about is politics. in my life, but this is a fact of life. And we lose our mandate because we don't vote. People say, well, these people are taking over and blah, blah, blah. Whose fault is that? Black people in this country do not vote. Anybody that complains about the state of things and doesn't vote has no excuse.

[03:42]

I'm not saying that you don't, you probably all do. Maybe you don't. But there are ways of making things work. There are many more Democrats than there are Republicans. How come the Republicans always win? That's an interesting thought to me. Of course, I know why. Because, although I'm not a Republican, I really give them a lot of credit. Because they go after what they want. They realize the issues, and they go after them. that they really go for it. The people that go for it are the people that get what they want.

[04:43]

And then the others are left saying, hey, wait a minute. How'd this happen? What's going on? And everybody feels helpless. So that's the place to turn things. at the voting booth is the place where you turn things around, where you have the opportunity to turn things around. If you don't do it there, then you have to get out in the street later when it's too late. Anyway, this is my thought. There are several ways to look at the war, many perspectives on the war. One perspective is the distant view, where you see that this war is just one battle in an ongoing war that's been going on for some time.

[05:49]

It's just one phase of the war that's been going on for a long time, which included Viet Grenada. That wasn't really a war. That was the most powerful country in the world stomping on the weakest country in the world. You can't really call it a war. But we've been perpetuating war, this war, for a long time. After the Second World War, We woke up and said, geez, we have all this armament we're really good at developing it. Huh. And we just kept right on going with it. That Second World War really set up this country as a superpower. And then in the 80s,

[06:53]

We used the excuse of the Russians to continue, or the Soviets, to continue building up our war machine. Kaspar Weinberger was there advocating this build-up. It was sickening. And the Congress just gave whatever they wanted. And you can see all the waste and all the stealing that's been going on. The manufacturers have been stealing from the government. Our taxes have been going into the government and the war machines have been stealing it. They didn't have to steal it, you know, just give it to them, but on top of giving it to them, they stole it and continue to steal it.

[07:58]

So, what are we preparing for? Now, the Soviets are no longer a threat and we stand alone, this country stands alone as the superpower. What are we preparing for? Why do we want to keep it going? Three guesses. Somebody wants to conquer the world. What else is there to do? Where else is there to go? One way or another, this world's getting smaller and smaller. One way or another, it's going to be one world. And who's going to control it? Everybody's worried about that. Who's going to control it? Well, the most powerful country is the one that's going to control it.

[09:07]

It's a little bit like the Roman Empire. So, the one that has the strongest war machine is the one that's going to control things. The strongest war machine and the most money. and the will to do it. So, this is not just a little battle that we're dealing with here. It's much deeper than that. We actually supply all these countries with the war materials with which to do battle with them. Those people don't have any.

[10:07]

They can't manufacture that stuff. We manufacture it, and we give it to them, and then we have a little war with them. And that's how we keep producing our own war machines. If we don't have a war with them, we can't continue to keep producing this stuff. There has to be a reason. There has to be an excuse. So we give them the toys to play with, and then we play with them. And then the toys get destroyed, And we have the opportunity to produce more. What is the worst reason you can think of for starting a war? Just take the worst reason you can think of and that's it. Because there are people who spend their whole lives thinking about this. to people that have spent their whole life working toward a big war for the past 30 years.

[11:12]

They're not going to stop now. That's what their life is about. And unless there's something, a powerful force meeting that, there's nothing that's going to stop it. So, by, you know, the voting public mandates the administration to do this. And the military-industrial complex is the benefactor. There was an interesting article in the Examiner the other day. arms merchants gleefully getting out their order pads, anticipating the end of the war, so they can start a new round of orders.

[12:35]

That's what it's about, and that's what it's always been about. We think that there are these ideologies and emotional reasons and territorial reasons, blah, blah, for starting wars. But what starts wars is people who make war machines. Because when you're in business, you have to have customers. If you're selling apples, you have to have people to buy them. So you advertise. Nice, juicy red apples for sale. And if you're making war machines, you're making a lot of money, you have to create business. You have to create a market for your business. And this is the hidden reason for wars, is that people who make money off of them and manufacture the war materials have to stay in business. And they're very powerful.

[13:38]

They don't go out of business. The crux in Germany is still in business. Mitsubishi, in 1945, they were making airplanes and bombing us in the Pacific with them. It's almost out of control. I mean, it is out of control. But people don't realize it. And those people, you know, they have the ideology of the sheep are grazing. May they safely graze, but it's not very safe. the sheep are grazing and the shepherds are leading them into the slaughterhouse.

[14:44]

Unfortunately. And it just, you can predict it. If you see, if you realize, you can just predict it. This war is not a surprise. So, we can protest. We should protest, you know. Everybody should be out there protesting one way or another. Nevertheless, we turned it over to them. There was a false sense of security. You know, the economy is up. We give you this wonderful economy, just let us do what we want. But the last 10 years, the economy's been up, but it's a false sense of security because there's this huge debt hanging over like a big tidal wave that's so big that you don't believe it.

[16:01]

So big that you can't believe it. And it's going to go... It's got to. Because it's all credit. It has no foundation. So we have to keep moving this way, and if we move fast enough, and conquer the world fast enough, we'll own everything, so it won't matter. That's how we're going to get it back. This maybe has to be my stupid view, but I do believe it. How else are we going to get the money? We're certainly not going to charge the people directly with taxes. Anyway, I think we should do everything we can to protest.

[17:12]

And even though it's too late, we have to express ourselves. even though there's been a peace offer, of course it's not accepted. We haven't tested out our military fully enough yet. You keep those guys on edge for a month waiting to go into battle, you can't say don't do it. You can't do that. So it's between a rock and a hard place. So anyway, I would be surprised if we accepted any offer.

[18:19]

We might. I hope so. We should make every effort to see that that happens. But it's really in the hands of one person. Seems to be in the hands of one person, actually. Who knows? So anyway, what are your thoughts? Susan? Well, I have several. The first is that it's never too late. And I think that the media in this country been a major factor in making people feel powerless and helpless. And one of the best signs I saw at a protest was, why is there sand on top of our oil?

[19:29]

But I had a question for you in regards to Zen practice. You know, in Japan, Zen practice was used to train samurai warriors. Doing what with them? Training samurai warriors. You know, there were, in the past, in historic Japan, Zen priests helped to train the samurai. So, how do you, can you put that together? Between the practice that says, do not kill and the training of warriors? It's complicated, but in the best sense, the training was not how to be warriors, or how to be humans. It was training warriors how to be humans, not training people how to be warriors. You understand? So you think that perhaps the priests who were training the samurai warriors were teaching them non-violence?

[20:38]

They were teaching them ethics, because they couldn't stop them from being warriors. So they had to teach them ethics of a warrior. I've been reading lately in other spiritual practices, Christians in particular, they have a notion of something called a just war. Right. And these theologians have been debating when it's okay to kill. And I'm wondering if you can say anything about that in relation to what you just said. about teaching athletics? Well, myself, I think we should teach people not to kill. And whether or not there's a just war is open to controversy. On the face of it, there's no just war. By definition, it's a tact

[21:39]

they have the choice of either passively resisting or actively resisting. And so there's a difference between defending yourself and creating a war situation. I don't want to defend the samurai. I don't know enough about the samurai, but I do know my gut feeling is not that, although I will say that a lot of the Zen priests actually favored war in some ways, but that was not the majority of priests.

[22:41]

You know, I don't know so much about the samurai, but what I said is what I believe, is that they were training warriors how to be humans, short of taking their swords away from them. How to be ethical doing this thing that they're doing. Maybe that's the best they could do. That's pretty good, actually. Because the warriors were sworn to be warriors. So the priests gave them a code of ethics. During the Second World War, there's a picture of Suzuki Roshi and the priests of the temple carrying the temple bells out to be melted down into munitions.

[23:48]

That's what the government made the priests do. They didn't like it very much. And Suzuki Roshi protested the war. But it was, you know, in this country, it's very easy to do things like protesting, you know, very easy. because we have a mandate to do that. So you think that everywhere in the world people can do that, but they can't. If you're in some other country and you want to protest the government, or protest the army, or protest somebody who's got a gun at your head, you think twice before you do that. You find some other way, maybe, of dealing with things. But here in this country, we have a lot of freedom. And we think maybe everybody else in the world, down through history, has had that too. But it's not the case. It's not always so easy to deal with those things. And I give a lot of credit to people that have dealt with them in the ways they've done it.

[24:56]

In Japan, during the Second World War, and other wars, The priests had to go into the army. I mean, they couldn't be conscious. There was no such thing as a conscientious objector. So, Kari Geri Roshi said they would train the priests to be soldiers. And then, when they got into battle, they would shoot up in the air, shoot their guns in the air. And then when a sector was supposedly hit, they would just tell the actual people to go die, just go to this tank and they would be dead. You can't just obliterate something because it's different.

[26:15]

And that's something that keeps coming to my mind, too, is that, you know, there's... I don't know if I've ever felt... I've never been so aware of a war, I don't know why, for me personally, in my skin, as this one, and as much righteousness as I've ever felt. And that's the part that's scary. You know, it's like people are saying, you know... So that's right, it's crazy-making. And it's all for the wrong reasons. It's all excuses for doing something that have very little reason behind them.

[27:21]

But the excuses are blown up into reasons, and people grab onto them. I've often thought, well, why not just take all the money and give it to the munitions manufacturers? And they don't have to do anything. They don't have to ruin their natural resources. Just give them money. I just wanted to say something. about your comment about black people. I felt it was really racist and simplistic and I guess it disturbed me. And judgmental. This remark sounds racist. I got it from a black woman who told me this. But it's different. It's also my observation. But it's real different for a black woman to say that than for a white man. And it's a lot more complicated than that.

[28:25]

It's very complicated. Why? Very complicated. Because a black person... It's like they know things from the inside, in a way that a white person doesn't. That's right. And so, I feel like she has more of a right to say something. Right. She does. But she says that it doesn't matter. It's beyond there being any way to correct the situation. So it's out of despair. I understand that. It's out of despair that that happens, or doesn't happen. Nevertheless, despair just feeds on itself.

[29:26]

There has to be some way. It's a desperate situation, but as Susan said, all things are possible. I'm not blaming those people. I'm expressing my anguish over the fact that They can't do that. You can feel it's racist if you want to. I think that, in a sense, Buddhism has and you have evil and you have good. So it's real easy to say killing is bad.

[30:27]

But in Buddhism, I still haven't figured this out yet, how we have to accept everything and we know that in accepting everything we accept people's aggression and that people will kill each other. And how we can change that and at the same time accept reality Accepting means accepting reality. It doesn't mean accept everything that happens. But that is the reality. Human beings are like that. In order for us to always be peaceful, we have to be different from the way we are. Why? Why? Because we are never just peaceful. No, we're not. We're not ever just peaceful. That's right. So for us to be frustrated, Or to even solve the problem of war seems to be an insolvable thing. Well, that's right, it is an insolvable thing. But we have to solve the insolvable thing. Because war is always going on in each one of us.

[31:32]

This is where... It's not that war is natural. The reason why war is going on is because it's natural. We want it. Every one of us. But the place to fight it is here. Now, I understand fighting it there, but in a sense, you said that, you know, so therefore, it's not everybody's fighting it there. To fight it out there is, I suppose, an exercise of capability, too. I mean, like when you say Democrats and Republicans, there's a difference. I'm to this point where I don't think there's a difference, because I think your industrial, military complexes is the basis. It's capitalism that's the basis of money. So therefore, anybody who has power and money, no matter what they are, It's like we have to go back to the Peace and Freedom Party and start a whole new movement. Maybe so. I don't want to argue politics. But, even though they're, you can say, you know they're the same, there's a little difference.

[32:36]

And that little bit of difference is what makes a difference. During the Reagan administration, there was this vote on whether or not we should have poison gas. And it was completely split between the D's and the R's. And George Bush made the final vote, twice, that we should have our own poison gas. I don't know if everybody remembers that or not. But it just takes one vote. So, even though the D's and the R's are the same, there's a little bit of difference. And that little bit of difference is all the difference in the world. We're not going to have a peace and freedom party.

[33:40]

We have to make one party into that. Well, one of the reasons that these and the others are not that different is because very few people are voting. And so all the Democrats are gearing for a pitch to the lowest common denominator of 30% of whoever it is who's making the difference. And it's creating our own doom. That's right. I'm just thinking about what would be a Buddhist politics aside from the function of voting, analyzing, divine instruction. I think a lot about pacifism and about this sort of trend you described of the drive toward world domination also as the

[34:46]

because there is so, evil in this situation is so equally shared. And so, obviously, the expression of war is so generic that one can't easily take a political position. One can only take a moral one. And I think maybe that's where, you know, if there were a Buddha I think, I would say a Buddhist position would be not person-centered. Because ideologies are always people-centered. But in order to have an order, a world order, you have to have a world order-centered ideology, which includes everything in the world.

[36:11]

In other words, Because we're human beings, we're homocentric. And everything revolves around us as human beings. And the words of the Bible have even been misconstrued to say you should have dominion over all the animals. I don't think that's the original terminology, but that's the way it's construed. there has to be a different center. The humans have to step out of the center and see the whole picture. It has to be an all-inclusive view so that we see that natural resources, animals, the sea, everything that exists in this universe is part of

[37:18]

the harmonious relationship. And if we don't see that, then our view gets narrower and narrower and narrower, and it gets down to what I want. And when it gets down to what I want, then there's war. War is based on what I want and what you want. Instead of taking the whole realm into consideration, and instead of focusing on what I want and what you want, we have to focus on what's best for everything. But that's hard to do. The communists tried to do that originally, but of course it degenerated. And I was thinking about the fact that what you said, that we like to do more, we really do.

[38:28]

We really like it, very early in life. You know, come in and go like this. And I've been thinking about how And I think that it's so important for me to realize that what I do makes a difference. And that's so hard. Our media, our politics, everything makes it real clear that nobody makes any difference. And that's inaccurate. but I can act right now for myself, for my relationship with the environment, for my politics.

[39:44]

I can do it at different levels, but just keep that individual connection. Each one of us counts. And what each one of us does is actually empowering for ourselves and for others. That's hard to see sometimes. It's really hard to see because you want something to happen out there. We want to affect the world out there, but we can affect the world here, which affects the world out there, but in ways that we don't necessarily see right away. Getting back to Meryl's point about what is a Buddhist kind of direction, And also, what was just said, I was just reading that Woodrow Wilson said back in the First World War that there's no such thing as an innocent bystander.

[40:47]

If we're bystanders, we're not innocent. And it seems to me that the peace movement started out with trying this last, in this last six months, started out trying to kind of confront the power dimension. Hopefully there'd be big marches, and they'd get bigger and bigger and bigger, and they'd bring the machine to a halt. And that machine does seem so impossible to deal with. I mean, Democrat after Democrat voting to continue the war. As we've said, it's so unsimple. And the problem is so pervasive But what's happened, it seems to me, simultaneously or spontaneously with the peace movement is it stopped that enormous kind of confrontational move and it's just falling back everywhere into little groups of people.

[41:50]

smaller demonstrations, more peaceful demonstrations, and groups of people everywhere, everywhere. You listen to KPFA, it takes 10 or 15 minutes for the list of all the activities that's going on to be described. And so I think that that, just people coming together and beginning to express their confusion and their grief little by little to come to some kind of shape and beginning to take actions. And I think that that's the way that there's going to be significant change. That that will promote a kind of stability and responsiveness and ongoing supportiveness that has a chance to do something. Well, in my practice, which is very much a beginning practice, and when I practice Daoism, I get transient nature of things and experience and reality comes to me.

[43:05]

So I think the war is transient. Now I see the excuse for the war is transient. Before it was because one side wanted another side out of the way. Our website has said, we will leave Kuwait. And now it seems to be escalating over points of timetables and schedules. Excuses. Excuses and losses. The loss of life over, to me, what seems to be smaller excuses. And when I come today and I see this first precept, thou shalt not kill, I want to cling to that as a constant. I have a little difficulty with the idea of the transient nature of things and then this constant that I just want to grasp so fully. Right. So that's a big problem. Not to kill. Because everything is dying. Anyway.

[44:06]

And we can't move around without killing something. Preset means be careful. Don't do something out of willfulness. And nourish life. Don't kill the spirit of life. It means lots of different things. But if you think you're not killing, we're always killing. But this has to do with what you do consciously. It has to do with your volition and your attitude life and death. It's complex, but before you have to take somebody's life, you should do everything else you can first.

[45:10]

You mentioned about how You admire the Republicans for their forthrightness and their drive to get what they want and their goals, you know. In a way I do too, you know, but I realize I think it's because they have narrowed the world down so much that they're simple decisions and we're going to get it. That's right. If you look at Ronald Reagan, that's the most simple-minded person I've ever seen. Therefore he got what he wanted. You know, that's simple-mindedness and single-mindedness. And when they go together, it's very powerful. But nevertheless, that's what people are up against. And so how do you deal with that? How do you move or form That's right.

[46:20]

It's just as powerful as that. I mean, I'm not the one to do it. I wish I was. Maybe I am. I think there's a need to try to take those precepts and have some you know, more refined precepts with different other, you know, take those principles and say, in different circumstances, how do they apply? And when I try to talk about the situation, I find that there's, there are no underlying premises that people are agreeing with. And so, for instance, people will say, well, Saddam Hussein, you know, look what he did to the Kurds, and he's doing this and he's doing that and the other. And then, You know, I say, what about King Fahd in Saudi Arabia? The whole thing falls apart. But then it's like you've got to respect modern nation-states borders, and you can't just obliterate a state.

[47:30]

And you say, well, what about Syria? And we just ceded Lebanon to Assad. And so it becomes very difficult, because then it becomes as though you're just sort of trading insults about your favorite or hated people. And really what's going on is, for me at least, what's the underlying principle we can say we will hold everybody to? And then can we say that did we all, when we're judging whatever the situation is, are we judging it against that principle that stems from these notions of thou shalt not kill or take, whatever it is. And nobody is talking really like that. I don't even know what those universal principles are. Because there's so much manipulation. All these ideas are thrown out. All these hatreds are thrown out that you pick up on. Oh, I'll take this hatred. I'll take this anger. I'll take, you know, oh, those guys, you know.

[48:31]

I've never even heard of these people before. I hate these guys. Pick up on it and use it. And use people as a target for anger. Because it gets off, you get off on it, you know. We're addicted to anger, war, to guns, to, you know, addiction is just, we don't even realize it, we won't admit it, but we're addicted to all this stuff. So what is the underlying thing? That's a good question. What's down, what's underneath all this? That's what we have to think about. What's underneath all this? do, but the moment you say, Thou shalt not, you're imposing a view on somebody else.

[49:38]

For me, that's what makes it so hard to know how to act now, because I can see all of these actions, the flow of karma or whatever. I can't go out there and do anything except what I see in terms of action is very narrow. It's really, it's literally impossible to know why, but one still makes a chance, it takes a prize to do this.

[50:41]

And I think that it's one of the that's been completely unnecessary. And you were talking about Grenada and how far back this goes, but I'm thinking the Middle East, and that goes back thousands of years. That's completely insoluble. And the only way that it can be solved, which is a contradiction of terms, it's insoluble, is for everybody to suddenly say, I give up everything I want. If they do that, then they'll have some solution there. But I don't think that, I don't know how much that's going to happen. So consequently, all I can do really, and I've come to the conclusion this time, this time I'm not demonstrating against this or anything, I did that before. This time I came to the conclusion that I just really don't know what's happening.

[51:44]

Not in any way. Now at any level, do I really know what's happening? All the way from censored news to the most fundamental way you can look at it. I don't know what's happening. And so I've written my letters, and I've got my candied bloods, and I just go on sitting with people and doing the best I can with what I have in front of me. It isn't much, but it's something. Richard? I have a few comments, I guess examples. And I still think that that's part of it.

[52:53]

When we go into the street, or when we vote, or when we walk a bridge, or sign a petition, we are saying that someone else should do something different for a solution. Congress and the military industrial complex should do something different. So I guess the question is that apparently, and I get it from when you said this is a contradiction in Buddhism, and so on. Could you explain that? It's not a contradiction. I didn't say it was a contradiction. Not a contradiction. You know, there are various levels of reality. One level of reality, everything is just as it is. So another level of reality is that there is right and wrong. And what makes right and wrong is a human being's view. Without human beings, is there right and wrong?

[55:29]

There's only right and wrong as long as there are human beings to experience right and wrong. So as a human being in this world, in this dualistic world, you have right and wrong. So ultimate level is that there's no right or wrong. But from the point of view of a human being, there are things that are right and there are things that are wrong. And right and wrong change all the time according to circumstances. What's right now is not necessarily right tomorrow. What's wrong now is not necessarily what's wrong tomorrow. As a matter of fact, they can switch places, right? So right and wrong are not fixed. They are according to circumstances. There are rights and wrongs which seem more perpetual. So it doesn't mean that a human being should ignore right and wrong, because ultimately there's no right or wrong. We have to understand ultimate reality. But we also have to live within our relative reality.

[56:36]

So within our relative reality, there's right and there's wrong, and there's good and bad. This has always been the case in Buddhist understanding. Good actions lead to good results. Bad actions lead to bad results. That's basic Buddhism. So you avoid evil. and do what is good. That's the precepts, the three pure precepts. Avoid evil, do what is good, and save the sentient beings. And our classical way is to go to war over it. The more sophisticated way, and what we even teach our kindergarten children, I mean, you see those little spots where the children said it's, the big people just do what we do.

[57:40]

You know, they talk about it, you negotiate, you get this, I get that. And if we could just get, well, the information was kind of the embodiment of a new spirit that we were supposed to use, which we haven't really grown up to use yet. The mechanisms are there. The mechanisms are there, and the country's even founded on it. Right, I mean, we should be the shining light. Right, but it's all getting perverted, you know, and instead of acting out of those premises, they get used by, they get perverted and then they use us instead of us using them. Yeah. It's not a matter of... It could be a matter of a new order. A new order means getting back to the original intention. Right? Cleaning up a rag. That would be a new order. I was just told about something Tim and I did recently.

[58:43]

They went to the War Memorial building in New York and they wanted to go inside and the guard said, He said, no, no, no problem. We're not going to minister. We're not going to throw anything or anything. No, no. We just want to walk. So the guy got very confused. He was like, you're just going to walk? He said, yeah, we're just going to walk. So 200 people went inside and walked through a minefield and slowly into a memorial building in front of this beautiful building. I just wanted to say I appreciated what everybody said. Because it just seems there's so many layers to this. It's in the process of blowing up, I feel. And that things are going to be worse for people who are really there.

[59:47]

And they're going to be worse for us as we see what's coming, even if there's no groundwork. the terrible results. And it seems to me that it's important to, as individuals, to reach out to other people, make some connection with some people who are doing things that one feels comfortable with. or that one has an affinity with their way. And sometimes it helps to be with a really big group of people. I would say to keep one's connection so that one doesn't feel isolated when things get really tense and feel a kind of despair.

[60:54]

I think it really helps to be with other people who There's an energy that can hold you up. And I also think it's a really fabulous opportunity to watch your states of mind. I've been doing that a lot, at home a lot, and I listen to the radio a lot, too much sometimes. I've been watching how how my perspective changes in relationship to what comes in, and that you get bits and pieces of things, and you kind of grab what's there. But as you get more and more, and you're aware that there is a great deal, and that you're just getting more of a picture, of a totality, and there's going to be more.

[61:56]

that if you watch, I watch as I'm being swayed with emotion in regard to this information or the propaganda or whatever. And that's interesting to watch and to recognize. And it helps one to detach from some of the negative stuff, for me, that I feel as I am. It is every now and then, somehow, remember that I'm being subjected to this stuff. And that I have to recall, to withdraw and recall what the life values are, and where they are, and that one's allegiance, at least in what I feel, is to those forces and people, wherever they are.

[62:57]

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