This morning I'm going to continue my talks on Suzuki Roshi's commentary on the Sandokai of Shirdu or Sekito Kisen, the Chinese Zen master. Xu Du lived in the 8th century, pretty much the whole 8th century in China.

[01:18]

So I'll read you up to the point where I'm going to talk of the poem. This, of course, as most Zen students know, are familiar with the poem that we chant in our liturgy, The Harmony of Difference and Equality. The mind of the great sage of India is intimately transmitted from west to east. While human faculties are sharp or dull, the way has no northern or southern ancestors. The spiritual source shines clear in the light. The branching streams flow in the dark. Grasping at things is surely delusion. According with sameness is still not enlightenment. All the objects of the senses interact and yet do not. Interacting brings involvement.

[02:32]

Otherwise, each keeps its own place. Sights vary in quality and form. Sounds differ as pleasing or harsh. Refined and common speech come together in the dark. Clear and murky phrases are distinguished in the light. the four elements return to their natures just as a child turns to its mother. I'm actually going a little beyond where I wanted to, but this is important, I think. Fire heats, wind moves, water wets, earth is solid, eye and sight, ear and sound, nose and smell, tongue and taste. Thus, for each and every thing, depending on these roots, the leaves spread forth. Trunk and branches share the essence.

[03:35]

Revered and common, each has its speech. In the light there is darkness, but don't take it as darkness. In the dark there is light, but don't see it as light. Light and dark oppose one another, like front and back foot in walking. Each of the myriad things has its merit, expressed according to function and place. Phenomena exist like box and lid joining, principle accords like arrow points meeting. Hearing the words, understand the meaning. Don't set up standards of your own. If you don't understand the way right before you, how will you know the path as you walk? Practice is not a matter of far or near. But if you are confused, mountains and rivers block your way. I respectfully urge you who study the mystery, don't pass your days and nights in vain." Well, that's the whole poem. Too hard to stop in the middle.

[04:36]

So, these four lines of the poem are what I'm going to talk about today. The four elements return to their natures just as a child returns to its mother, or turns to its mother. Fire heats, wind moves, water wets, earth is solid. The essence of this chapter is talking about independence and dependence, and what Suzuki Roshi coined the word independency. So there's independence, dependence, interdependence, and what he calls independency. which is his way of expressing non-duality of dependence and independence.

[05:52]

So, Shikito says, the four elements return to their natures. just as a child turns to its mother. Fire heats, wind moves, water wets, earth is solid." So fire, wind, water, and earth are the four elements of the ancient world, the way of describing things. So Suzuki Roshi starts his commentary by saying, The four elements are fire, wind, water, and earth. Though not a perfect description, we say that these four elements each have their own nature. The nature of fire is to purify. Wind brings things to maturity. I don't know why, but wind in nature encourages things to be more mature.

[07:00]

Wind has a more organic activity, while the activity of fire is more chemical. The nature of water is to contain things. Wherever you go, there is water. Water contains everything. This is opposite to the usual way of thinking about water. Instead of saying there is water in the trunk of the tree, we say that water contains the trunk of the tree, as well as the leaves and branches. So water is something vast in which everything, including ourselves, exists. So that's interesting, but I'll finish this. Solidness is the nature of earth. Earth here does not mean land, but rather the solid nature of matter. So this is not a scientific description of things, it's more a subjective description using these elements as a way to describe our nature.

[08:06]

So if you have a scientific mind you may say, not quite accurate, but as he says, I'm not a scientist, and he's not using these in a scientific sense. So the nature of fire is purification. We say that anything that that's not real can't go through the fire and come out of the fire. So fire is a way of purifying and testing what is real. We say you have to go through the fire of something in order to test yourself. So fire burns away all of the

[09:12]

or delusion, and only reality or purity, pure reality comes out the other side. There's a saying, a wooden Buddha cannot go through the fire. A metal Buddha also cannot go through the fire. Only a flesh and blood Buddha can go through the fire and come out the other side. And wind, bringing things to maturity, wind is used like the wind of the Dharma, the golden breeze, it's sometimes called. wind arouses things and kind of brings things to life.

[10:19]

And of course water is the great container and water is always seeking the lowest place and takes the shape of whatever wherever it goes, it takes the shape of whatever it meets. So it's hard to say whether the glass holds the water or the water holds the glass. We say this is a glass of water, but you could also say this is a water of glass. We say, I walk down the street, but actually the street also is walking me. We have to see things from both sides. And earth, of course, is solidity, earthy solidity, unmovable nature of things.

[11:39]

the solid nature of things. According to Buddhism, if you analyze a thing into the smallest unit imaginable, that smallest final unit is called Gokumi, Japanese term, Gokumi, the smallest particle or the smallest thing imaginable. Although sometimes defined as atom, it is not really the atom, because the atom is not the final unit. I don't know the proper terms, but according to my understanding of modern physics, the smallest final unit of being has no weight or size. It is just electrical energy. Strangely enough, Buddhism has a similar idea. Although Gokumi has the four elements, fire, wind, water, and earth, it is not something solid. When we reach this point, we see that its nature is just emptiness.

[12:46]

So sometimes modern physics and Buddhism meet, according to some minds, in emptiness. Emptiness has many meanings, several meanings. Sometimes we say, Nagarjuna defines it as interdependence. Emptiness is interdependence. But it also means the absence of any final particle. there's, when you reach the bottom, there's no final thing. So form is emptiness, and emptiness is form, as the Heart Sutra says.

[13:55]

So the four elements are not just material, they are energy or potential or readiness. You know we use the term dharmakaya. Dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, nirmanakaya. Dharmakaya is the great potentiality of everything, the source of everything as potentiality. And it has no special shape or form, but everything comes out of this potentiality. Everything arises out of this potentiality or readiness. That's an interesting term, readiness. Potentiality actually is a kind of readiness.

[15:09]

And then when it's touched by something, by conditions, phenomena spring out. Shapes and forms and colors spring out. So, the four elements are not just material, they are energy, or potential, or readiness. This is Gokumi, not something defined, actually. To these four elements, we add the quality of emptiness. So fire, wind, water, and earth are all empty. In the Heart Sutra, it says the mark of all dharmas is emptiness. The mark of all dharmas means, the mark means something's identifying quality.

[16:14]

The mark of fire is heat. The mark of water is wet. and so forth. But the true mark of all dharmas is empty, emptiness. The true characteristic of all things is emptiness. Or maybe Gokumi. So fire, wind, water, and earth are all empty. Their mark is emptiness. From this emptiness, these four elements come into being. So from emptiness comes form, all the forms. So the ground of all the forms is called emptiness. As soon as these four elements come into being, Right there is the final unit, Gokumi, or emptiness.

[17:17]

That is a Buddhist understanding of being. It looks as if we're talking about matter, but these elements are not just matter. They are both spirit and matter. Thinking mind is included. I think he's kind of equating thinking mind with spirit rather than matter. Thinking mind is included. Accordingly, emptiness includes both matter and spirit, both mind and object, both the subjective world and the objective world. Emptiness is the final being which our thinking mind cannot reach. So I think in a religious sense, this Gokumi, or emptiness, Gokumi, or emptiness, in its deepest sense, is unreachable with our mind.

[18:30]

We can't, because our mind is based on imagination. So we try to imagine this, we can't really imagine it. I think science would say eventually the mind will penetrate the meaning, the deepest place. Maybe. There's a kind of ... bumping place of science and religion, I think. So each of these four elements, then, assumes its own nature. That's what the poem is saying.

[19:31]

Each of the four elements resumes its true nature like a child turns to its mother. Each of these four elements then resumes its own nature, that is, comes to emptiness. Just as a child turns to its mother, without the mother there is no child. So in this sense, child or mother is like emptiness and child is like form. just as a child turns to his mother. Without the mother there is no child. That the child is here means that the mother is here. That because of emptiness everything exists. Everything exists based on emptiness and emptiness is the mother of all existence. And everything returns to emptiness even though we say returns to emptiness but actually things don't return to emptiness, things are already empty.

[20:37]

All forms are already empty. You know, we say the glass is full, and when there's no water in it, then it will be empty. But whether there's water in it or not, the cup is empty, in its true sense. So a cup only exists dependent on all the things that are not the cup. Without all the things that are not the cup, there's no cup. Without all the things that are not you, there would be no you. So that emptiness is here means that the four elements are here. And even though the four elements are here, they are nothing but a momentary formation of the final emptiness, kokumi.

[21:43]

In these four lines, and in the six lines that follow, Sikhito is explaining reality in two ways. And the other is dependence. Things are both independent and dependent. So we say, you are independent. The child leaves home and is independent, but he thinks. But the other side is everything is dependent. So he talks about the truth of independence. Although there are four elements, these elements naturally resume their own natures. Although there are many things, each one of them is independent. A child, even though it has a mother, is independent.

[22:49]

Fire is independent in its nature of heat. Wind is independent in its nature of movement. Water is independent in its nature of moisture. And Earth is independent in its nature of solidity. So each thing is independent. I want to read the lines for the next talk so that you can understand the lines for this talk better. So we're going jumping ahead a little bit and saying these are the lines for the next talk. This is eye and sight, ear and sound, nose and smell, tongue and taste. Thus, for each and every thing, depending on these roots, the leaves spread forth. Trunk and branches share the essence. Revered and common, each has its speech. So these lines express the understanding of what I call He made up this word. Each one of you is independent, but you are related to each other.

[23:54]

Even though you are related to each other, you are independent. You can say it both ways. Do you understand? Usually when we say independent, we have no idea of dependent. But that is not a Buddhist understanding of reality. We always try to understand things completely so we will not be mixed up, or one-sided, or dualistic, or ignoring something. We should not be confused by dependence or independence. If someone says everything is independent, we say, OK, that is so. And if someone says things are interrelated, that is also true. It's not either or, it's like both and. There was a jazz club in San Francisco named Both And. I don't know if that was, no it wasn't.

[25:03]

We understand, so whatever you say, that is okay, but if someone sticks to the idea of independence only, we will say to him, no, you're wrong. There are many koans like this. For example, if the final karmic fire burns up everything, you know, there's this question, at the end of, the end of time, our time, the time of the earth, will the karmic fire burn everything up? So, if the final karmic fire burns everything up, at that time will the Buddha nature exist? Sometimes the teacher will answer, yes it will exist, but at another time he may answer, Yes, it will. No, it won't.

[26:11]

Someone may ask him, then why did you say it will exist? This is the problem we have with koans. You said, that person will get a big slap. What are you thinking about? Don't you understand what I mean? That Buddha nature will not exist is right, and that it will exist is also right. From the viewpoint of independency, everything exists with Buddha nature, no matter what happens to this world. But even so, nothing exists when seen from the viewpoint of utter darkness or the absolute. So yes, things exist and they don't exist. Matter of fact, what exists now, we say, is real, right?

[27:17]

But it's not real. If you say it's real, that's wrong, because it's not real. And if you say it's not real, that's also wrong, because it is real. and it's not a contradiction. So from the viewpoint of independency, everything exists with Buddha nature, no matter what happens to this world. But even so, nothing exists when seen from the viewpoint of utter darkness or the absolute. That which exists is nothingness or darkness in which the many things exist as one.

[28:21]

Many things exist, but there is nothing you can see or say about that. There is no way to understand things by explaining them individually. It is just an intellectual description. We must have an actual feeling of it as well. If you can just appreciate each thing one by one, then you will have pure gratitude. So as each thing springs as a spark into the world we can appreciate, because we appreciate each thing as Buddha nature, we appreciate the true nature of things and each thing is Buddha nature itself. Even though you observe just one flower, It is not just a flower. It is the absolute. It is Buddha himself. We see it in that way.

[29:25]

But at the same time, that which exists is just a flower. And there is no one to see it and nothing to be seen. That is the feeling we should have in our practice and in our everyday activity. then whatever work you do, you will have a continuous feeling of pure gratitude. I think this is very important, the feeling of pure gratitude. We're very spoiled. Spoiled means something pure got was left in the refrigerator too long. Not quite pure enough. And so we're always complaining, you know, that things are not going our way or suiting us the way we would like them to.

[30:35]

We're very spoiled. And then we get angry and we get upset. And when we can actually let go of everything, when we can put ourselves through the fire and come out the other side, then we can appreciate everything because there's nothing left of us and we don't expect anything. We don't expect too much. We only expect everything. or nothing, whichever way you want to look at it. When we think about things in terms of duality, we observe and understand it intellectually. Even so, it is important that we do not stick to our ideas. That understanding should be improved day by day by our pure, non-dual thinking. We say, you cannot catch a fish in the same place twice. Today you are fortunate to catch a big fish at a certain place, but tomorrow you should fish in some other place.

[31:46]

We also have the saying, notch the rail of the boat in order to mark our location. The boat is moving, but you mark the rail to remember the place. Oh, there was something beautiful and we should remember it. Marking it doesn't help because the boat is always moving, but we do it just the same. There is a good example of the thinking mind. This is a good example of the thinking mind. It shows our foolishness and suggests to us what Buddha life is. Do you know the old Chinese story of the hunter who sees a rabbit run into a tree stump? He comes back the next day and waits for another rabbit to run into the stump. This is very foolish. If a rabbit comes, we're lucky. If he doesn't, we shouldn't complain. We should appreciate what we see right here, right now.

[32:55]

Oh, a beautiful flower, or a rabbit. We should fully appreciate it, but we should not mark it on the rail of the boat. There are a lot of questions and answers here. Do you have a question? All right, Jen? What does it mean to put yourself through the fire? Well, I think in practice, to sit zazen or sashin. Sashin is a kind of fire that you put yourself through. Everything that is just hanging on to you gets burned away over a long period, over a period of time.

[34:10]

If you practice, hard practice, Things will get burned away. Not moving. What's the alternative? It's okay to complain, but if it's necessary, it's okay to complain. You should decide, is this necessary?

[35:17]

complain, to look at yourself and say, where's my virtue? Or, You know, it's very abstract talking about a complaint. We complain about many different things, right? So being abstract, it's not a generic complaint. We have to be specific. So being able to have patience, to turn toward patience is a good alternative.

[36:34]

Some people seem to have more fires to go through than other people. I was wondering if you could explain that. Well, some people have more fires to go through, yes. One of the fires is the fire of patience. Patience means to be able to stay in your place. Whatever is happening, to be able to stay in your place. So that you... There's nothing to depend on. You let go of all your dependencies. And the more you can let go of dependencies, you put your crutches away.

[37:44]

And the less you depend on, the more you realize what you actually do depend on. What is the final gokumi? What is the final dependence? What is it finally that you depend on when there's nothing to depend on? This wears away everything, all dependencies, until you finally come to depending on ultimate reality. So this is what monk's practice is, actually. True monk's practice is just letting go of everything. You don't work, you just depend on that hope that some food will come your way, you hope that some clothing will come your way through your practice. See, the monk's practice, in the meal chant we say,

[38:50]

we hope that our virtue and practice deserve this meal, right? That's referring to monk's practice, which is there's no other way to pay back what comes except through the virtue of your practice. And the monk depends on the virtue of practice for support. And there's no other way. Of course, there are various ways that monks are supported, but basically, it's like there's no place that you can call your own. There's no money, there's nothing. Three robes and a bowl. And you have faith that the practice will that through practice you'll be supported in the world. So that's the kind of fire to go through.

[39:58]

And it's great faith. Faith is another fire. It's when you put all of your faith in to practice and depend on that and not reach out for something else. So everything's a test. Everything in your life is a test to see how it tests you. And so that's a kind of fire. Testing. Yeah. Oh. How do you... since life seems to give you an affirmation of continual... to continue your life, you know, as you were saying, to become, you know, not that you want to become everything, your life is...

[41:19]

And yet, your reason shows that you're limited, you're going to die, you're in a mortal body, and this creates an anguish between your finite existence and this urge, this affirmative thing of life before immortality. How do you get over that? Yeah, well that's what everyone has to deal with. That's the big question for everyone. And no matter what we say or what anybody says, each one of us has to come to terms with it, as we do.

[42:25]

If you can, as Suzuki Roshi says, appreciate that the flower is Buddha, as well as just being the flower, you realize that you are Buddha as well as just being yourself, this person, and that dying, so to speak, is the other side of living, and that even though we say, I am alive, to say I am alive is a kind of arrogant statement because I am also not alive. So if we realize that life and death

[43:34]

If we only think that there's one side and the rest is nothing, then we have this anguish. But if we realize that birth and death are two sides of a coin and that within life is death and within death is life, then it's just the other side. I say just, but it's the other side. and we have to have some faith that life itself is continuous, whether this embodiment of life is continuous. This embodiment of life is not continuous, so we should identify with life rather than just identifying with this body-mind. If we identify with life itself or with birth and death itself, then We have a way to deal with the problem. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[44:39]

In speaking of, that it seems that some seem to have to go through more fires than others, and relating to the Senecai with saying that's inequality, why does it seem that women have to go through the fire more? Well, it just seems that women have to go through the fire more. Yes. It just seems that, you know. In the past, in history, men have always fought wars. I mean, with swords, hacking at each other. That was the fire, one of the fires for men. Women have their own different kind of fire to go through. So women have women's fire, men have men's fire. And sometimes men and women have the same fire. So each one of us has our own specific problems.

[46:04]

But the problems, you see, in practice, the problem becomes the way to go. That's why we don't see problems as problems. We see problems as challenges. And this is, you know, people come to me with problems and I always offer them a challenge. That's our relationship.

[46:46]

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