I vow to face the truth of God and talk in God's words. Good morning. Good morning. This morning, I'm I'm going to talk about case number 75 in the Blue Cliff Record, entitled, UQ's Unfair Blows. UQ lived in the middle of the 8th century in China. He belonged to the southern school of Zen.

[01:02]

And the monk who he has this dialogue with, or encounter with, was from the northern school of Zen. But here, there's no differentiation made. So Ngo introduces the subject. And in his introduction, he says, the sacred sword is ever in hand. It is death dealing and life giving. It is there, it is here, simultaneously giving and taking. If you want to hold fast, you are free to hold fast. If you want to let go, you are free to let go. Tell me, how will it be when one makes no distinction between host and guest, and is indifferent to which role one takes up.

[02:07]

See the following. And this is the case, the main subject. A monk came from Joshu Osho's assembly to Ukyu. And Ukyu said to him, what do you find in Joshu's teaching? Is there anything different from what you find here? The monk said, nothing different. Ukyu said, if there's nothing different, Why don't you go back there? And he hit him with his stick.

[03:10]

The monk said, if your stick had eyes to see, you would not strike me like that. Ukyu said, today I have come across a monk, meaning somebody worthwhile. And he gave him three more blows. The monk left. The monk started to leave. And Ukyu called after him and said, perhaps I've given you unfair blows. The monk turned back and said, well, to my regret, the stick is in your hands. And Ukyu said, well, if you need it, I'll let you have it. The monk went up to Ukyu, took his stick, and gave Ukyu three blows with it.

[04:16]

Ukyu said, unfair blows, unfair blows. The monk said, one may receive them. Ukyu said, I hit this one too casually. The monk made bows at that point. And Ukyu said, Osho, is that how you take your leave? Osho is a kind of respectful term for a priest. The monk laughed aloud and went out. And Ukyu said, That's it. That's it. So then Setcho has a verse and he says, easy to call the snakes together, but hard to scatter them.

[05:21]

How splendidly they crossed swords, or there's another way to say that. Although the sea is deep, it can be drained. The Kalpa stone is hard, but it wears away. Old Ukyu, old Ukyu, who is there like you? To give the stick to another, that was truly thoughtless. So, going back to the introduction, the sacred sword is ever in hand. Sacred sword is like true understanding. but it's the spiritual power of true understanding and one can cut things, use it to kill or use it to bring to life. It has the negative

[06:32]

using a negative method or the positive method. The negative method, you take everything away. The positive method, you give everything. So, this is the power to give and take, give and take away. It is death dealing and life giving. Sometimes, A teacher will, as I say, as we know, say no, no, no, over and over again, never giving, just emphasizing the negative, just taking everything away from the student, and then sometimes just always giving everything to the student. One must know when to take away and when to give.

[07:40]

And a student must know how to let everything be taken away and how to accept what's given. This tests the student's ability So in this case, giving and taking away keeps taking place in this interchange continuously, as we shall see. So he says, the sacred sword is ever in hand. It is death dealing and life giving. It is there, it is here. Sometimes there, sometimes here. simultaneously giving and taking, sometimes the positive and negative at the same time. If you want to hold fast, you are free to hold fast.

[08:53]

That means not giving up. If you want to let go, you are free to let go. Tell me, How will it be when one makes no distinction between host and guest? Host and guest has several meanings. It means absolute and relative, but here it means teacher and student. Teacher is host, student is guest. So, he's saying, how will it be when one makes no distinction between teacher and student? And is indifferent to which role one takes up. So, see the following as an example.

[10:01]

the main subject. A monk came from old, excuse me, a monk came from Joshu Osho's assembly to Ukyu. This Joshu is not the same Joshu that we usually talk about, but a different Joshu. A monk came from Joshu Osho's assembly up north to Ikyu. And Ikyu said to him, I'm not Ikkyu, Ukkyu. Ukkyu said to him, what did you find in Joshu's teaching? Oh, hi. You want to come in? Yeah. Well, you can come in the other door. The monk said, What do you find in Joshu's teaching?

[11:08]

Is there anything different from what he's been teaching, from what you find here? And the monk said, nothing different. This is Joshu, I mean, this is Ukyo inviting the monk in. This is his giving, his open hand. And then, Ukyu said, well, if there's nothing different, why don't you go back there? This is Ukyu chasing the monk away. Suzuki Roshi used to say, sometimes we say to a student, get out of here. Go away. But if the teacher says that to the student, the student shouldn't go away. This is an engagement, a statement of engagement, a negative statement of engagement.

[12:20]

So if the student goes away, he's making a mistake. So Ugyu said, if there's nothing different, then why don't you go back there? And he hit him with his stick to send him on his way. And to see what the monk is made of. And so the monk, turns around and he says, if your stick had eyes to see, you would not strike me like that. Pretty good statement. He's taking, now the monk is taking the initiative. So the balance is starting to tip. So the monk is taking the initiative and he's saying, if your stick had eyes to see, you would not strike me like that.

[13:28]

Luke, you said, today I have come across among someone who knows how to respond. And he gave you three more blows. Sometimes a blow is not punishment, but criticism. Scolding, mostly like scolding. And sometimes hitting is like praising. And sometimes you can't tell which is which. So whether scolding or praising, one just receives the blows. Blows are just blows. What do you do when

[14:30]

one receives a blow. How do you respond to that? So then the monk left. He did finally, he said, I'm going to get out of here. And then Ukyo says, called after him and he said, perhaps I've been giving you unfair blows, kind of calling after him. And so the monk turned back and he comes back and he says, well, Bukkyu, you know, you have the stick. Actually, literally, he said something like, you have the the dipper stick. Dipper means like shit dipper, you know, like water that you used to wash in these old, this is the eighth century, right?

[15:39]

That you used to wash your behind after you go to the bathroom. You have the dipper stick. And so, he says, so to my regret, the stick is in your hands. And Ukyu said, well, OK, if you need it, I'll give it to you. See what you can do with it. That was pretty good. So the monk again took the initiative, and now Ukyu is responding. So the monk is in the dominant position, and Ukyu is taking the subdominant position. their interplay. It's serious, but yet it's play. But very serious, deadly serious play.

[16:39]

So if you need it, I will let you have it. And so the monk went up to Ukyu, took the stick and gave Ukyu three blows. And Ukyu said, unfair, unfair blows. This is When they hit each other, it's firm, but it's not violent. It's not violent, just firm. Enough to feel something, but not enough to be painful. Unfair blows. And then the monk said, one may, it's a little funny, one may receive them, meaning something like, it's something that you should take.

[17:57]

And then Ukyu said, oh, I hit this one, meaning the monk, too casually. I didn't really hit him hard enough. And the monk made three bows. And Ukyu said, is that the end? Is that how you're going to leave me?" So to make three bows is like to acquiesce, right? To say, OK, maybe this is enough. But Spooky was saying, is this how you're going to leave? Just with three bows and then that's it? Meaning? Is there an end to this?

[19:06]

There shouldn't be an end to this. We should just keep going on like this. He was enjoying, not just enjoying, but realizing that this kind of going back and forth should continue forever. So the monk laughed out loud and left. And he said, that's it, that's it. In this kind of dialogue, this kind of interaction, it's sometimes called Dharma combat. And in combat, one wins and one loses. But this is not a matter of winning and losing. This is a matter of interchanging guest and host.

[20:13]

Sometimes, you know, Suzuki Roshi used to say, I'm the teacher and you're the student. But sometimes you're the student, you're the teacher, and I'm the student. we'd go back and forth, but at the same time, I'm the teacher and you're the student. Next lifetime, you'd be the teacher and I'll be the student. But this lifetime, I'm the teacher, you're the student, but sometimes you're the teacher and sometimes I'm the student. That's very pertinent to this case. So, one comment is, even though they ended or cut off, their life together still continues in this way, bringing forth this kind of vitality.

[21:25]

Someone made a comment, it's easy to give the stick, but hard to take it away. But that comes in the verse. In the verse, Satcho says, easy to call the snakes, but hard to scatter them. Easy to call means it's easy to invite someone in, but hard to send somebody away. So this kind of refers to the monk coming, easily coming in, and giving him the blows, sending him away, but he won't go away. It's a kind of tongue-in-cheek. It's easy to give him the stick, but hard to take it away, is what that means.

[22:45]

But old Ukyu is a very good example of someone who is not stuck in his position. giving the stick to the monk, saying, well, now it's your turn. Let's see what you will do. So the next line is, how splendidly they crossed swords. But there's another interpretation, which is, observe correctly the interchange of action points. I like that better. observe the interchange of action points. Instead of two crossed swords, there's one staff, and they both have the one staff. Sometimes it's on this side, and sometimes it's on that side.

[23:52]

Sometimes one is wielding it, and sometimes the other is wielding it. And then the verse says, although the sea is deep, it can be drained. And although the calpestone is hard, it wears away. The calpestone, you know, no matter how deep the sea is, it can finally be drained. Oh, Ukyu's way will endure forever. That's the point here. And although the Kalpa stone is hard, but wears away, the Kalpa stone is like this huge mountain.

[24:56]

And once every 500 years, a heavenly maiden comes down with a very soft cloth and brushes it on the top of the mountain. And when the mountain is worn away, that's the end of the Kalpa. So the compass stone is hard, but eventually wears away. But Ikkyu's weight will now wear away. I like that. And then he says, old Ukkyu, old Ukkyu, poor guy, you know, doesn't know good from bad, is what it means. Poor Ukkyu. stupid, you know. Who is there like you? To give the stick to another, that was truly thoughtless.

[26:06]

So, you know, you're just too considerate, you know, you're just too soft. He gave you a stick to another and then let him beat you with it. So it looks like you let the monk win, but actually whooped you all together, came out on top. If only you hadn't given him that staff, you'd be okay today. So this is a very interesting case and points out

[27:20]

how a good teacher and a good student interact. Sometimes a teacher is very kind and benevolent, sometimes negative and seemingly unkind. And in this dialogue, this is happening back and forth all the time. First one, first grasping and then taking away, or letting go and taking away, letting go and taking away, and letting go and taking away at the same time. This illustrates all three of those aspects. Sometimes a teacher will be very scolding.

[28:41]

My teacher used to scold me and I couldn't understand sometimes why he was scolding me. It didn't feel good when I was scolded. And sometimes I thought it was really unfair. Really unfair. But then I realized that he was trying to let me know something. The unfairness He was unfair. He was actually unfair when he was... But I realized that he was trying to tell me something, which, because it was so unfair, I couldn't understand how he could be so illogical. I felt that the illogicalness of it, and in that illogicalness, there was something he was trying to tell me, and I had to think... It was a kind of koan, actually, that he gave me. It was involved somebody's seat in his endo, this particular one.

[29:51]

And this seat was designated for somebody else. And so I was trying to tell this person that that was his seat. And then Suzuki Roshi came to me and said, that's his seat. Don't sit there. That's what I'm trying to tell him. And he knew that I was trying to tell him that. But it was so illogical. But there's something that he was telling me. And I didn't know what it was at the time. But over time, I understood what he was telling me. You know, sometimes in Japanese monastery, they will hit a person sitting next to the person that they want to hit. So a good lesson for the person sitting next to you is a good lesson for you.

[31:16]

And the person sitting next to you knows that the blows were meant for you. You know that the blows that were given to him were meant for you. And the blows that you're receiving, you know that they were meant for him. So what do you do about that? Sometimes the teacher puts you in an impossible position. I remember one summer in Tassajara, I asked my teacher, There was a kind of question of what my position should be. Should I be the Ino, or the head of the Zendo, or some other position?

[32:23]

I can't remember what it was. And I said, well, should I do this or that? And he said, OK. Anyway. Teaching methods are not always strictly logical. But there's some meaning in them that goes beyond our usual logic. And usually the meaning is meant to confront your self-centeredness. Teachers always confronting your self-centeredness. or your ego. And sometimes in a very radical way. And sometimes we just don't understand, you know, how we're being egotistical or self-centered.

[33:30]

We just don't know until we're brought up, I remember during Sashin one time, Suki Roshi said, all of you, you don't know how selfish you are. What does this have to do with being selfish? He meant self-centered. Same thing. So that was a kind of wonderful koan. which is enduring to this day. So today we're having a sashim.

[35:05]

So I need to stop on time. Thank you.

[35:12]

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