You don't have to sit in tandem. This is the fourth day of Sashin, and those people who have not been sitting Sashin, I've been giving a series of talks on several koans.

[01:14]

So my talks sometimes refer to what I've been talking about for the last three days. I've been talking about the lineage of Sekito Kisen, which includes such Dharma Masters as Dao Wu, and Lung Tan, and Da Shan, and Xue Feng, and Yan Tu. Those are their Chinese names. And these were all Zen masters during the Tang Dynasty, the Golden Age of Zen, or Chan, in China, from the 6th to around the 10th century, roughly.

[02:18]

Japanese names for Shui Feng, Yen Tu, and Da Shan are Seppo, Ganto, and Tokusan. So I'm going to use their Japanese names. Seppo, Ganto, and Tokusan. And Tokusan was the teacher of one of the teachers, but the main, Tokuson was the main teacher of Seppo and Ganto. And there are many koans about, which are about Seppo and Ganto, and also Tokuson. Tokuson was a originally enlightened by... I'm getting my names going around in my head.

[03:46]

Old Dragon Pond. Lung Tong. When Lungtan handed Togkasan a lantern and then blew out the light, everything was in complete, utter darkness. And Togkasan had a great enlightenment experience. So I want to talk about another koan which includes, this koan includes Tokuson, Seppo, and Ganto. And at this time, Tokuson was an old man.

[04:59]

Tokusan was maybe 80, 81 years old when Seppo and Ganto were studying with him. And Seppo was about 35 and Ganto was 41. And they were all together in Togasan's monastery. And Togasan by the time he was 81 was a very mellow teacher. He was an old man and his understanding was very mature and also his way of teaching was very mature. He used to, in his younger days, he used his stick a lot and he used to give people 30 blows.

[06:08]

30 blows whether you're right and 30 blows if you're wrong. Either way, all the same. But when he became older, he was more mellow and taught more through his usual disposition. In other words, his teaching, instead of teaching, he just lived his life. So living his life was his teaching. And that's kind of what this koan is about. Seppo, who was about 35, was the cook in the monastery. And Seppo was kind of a famous tenzo, famous cook, a monastic cook.

[07:16]

And when he traveled, he would travel with his own ladle. And wherever he went, they asked him to be the cook. But at this time, his understanding wasn't so good. And Ganto, whose understanding was very good, was Seppo's best friend, and kind of was in between Tokusan and Seppo. So, I'll read you this case. This case is called, Tokusan Carries His Bowls. One day, Tokusan came down to the hall carrying his eating bowls.

[08:24]

And Seppo, who was the cook, met him. And he said, Old Master, the bell hasn't rung yet, nor has the drum sounded. Where are you going with your bowls? And Togasan immediately just turned around and went back to his room. Setpo told this to Ganto. And Ganto said, Tokusan, great as he is, he has not yet realized the last word. Hearing of this, Tokusan sent his attendant to summon Ganto and then asked him, Don't you approve of me? And Ganto secretly whispered something in his ear. And Tokusan remained silent. Sure enough, the next day, when Tokasan ascended the rostrum, his talk was quite different from usual.

[09:34]

Ganto went to the front of the Zen hall, and rubbing his hands together, laughed loudly and said, wonderful, how happy I am that our old man has realized the last word. From now on, he'll be subject to no one. And that's the koan. And Mumon has a commentary Master Mumon says, as for the last word, neither Ganto nor Tokusan have ever heard of it, even in a dream. When I examine this point, I find they are just like puppets on a shelf. And then there's a verse that Mumon has. And the verse is, if you grasp the first word, you will realize the last word. The last word and the first word, these are not one word. Now, this is a very complex, obscure kind of koan.

[10:41]

And it's maybe one of the most obscure koans there are, there is. there's so much going on in this koan, so many little episodes and stories. And what's the point? So this koan kind of leaves you with, well, what's the point here? You can focus on almost anything as the point. And as a matter of fact, There's no one special correct interpretation of this koan. Let me talk about it a little bit. One day, old Tokusan came down to the hall carrying his bowls.

[11:48]

Of course, in the monastery, you don't have dishes on the table. carries his bowls. And whether it's to the dining room or the zendo, wherever they might be eating, the monk carries his bowls. And so it must have been about dinner time. And Duk Tong San, knowing that it was about dinner time, and being 81, knew it was time to eat. So he picked up his bowls. Probably he didn't listen for the bell, somehow, but he knew it was time to eat. So he just picked up his bowls and started off for the dining room. And he saw toks on the cook, and toks on, I mean, seppo. And seppo stopped him and he said, teacher, where are you going with your bowls?

[12:54]

The reason there was no bell was because dinner was late. Seppo somehow got behind and he hadn't rung the bell. In the monastery there's a drum that announces as well as a bell. There were all kinds of bells and drums, actually, that announced the meal. But there were no bells and no drums, because Seppo was behind in the meal. But when he saw Toksun, he said, I haven't rung the bell or beat the drum. How come you're coming down with your bowls? So, Togusan bowed, turned around, and walked back to his room.

[14:02]

And... Seppo seems to have got a kind of inflated feeling from this, like, You're wrong, teacher. You did the wrong thing. Don't you see? We haven't rung the bell yet. for the meal. Why are you coming with your bowls? But he wasn't looking at his own problem or his own fault. He was just looking in front of him at the teacher. You did the wrong thing. But he didn't look to see at his own fault that he was late with the meal. Now this seems very simple, right? And it is pretty simple. So Tokusan immediately went back to his room and he told this to Ganto. Now Ganto could see that Seppo was seeing something from only one point of view, from his own point of view.

[15:15]

And he said, that old Tokusan, as enlightened as he is, I really need to give him my last word. doesn't understand the last word of Zen. Someone who only sees something from one point of view, Suzuki Roshi used to talk about this, that they call that a board-carrying fellow. Someone who carries a board on their shoulder if you're carrying a long board on your shoulder or a big load of lumber, you can see this way, but you can't see this way because you have this lumber on your shoulder and it's obscuring your view. So someone who only sees up this way, but not this way, is called a board-carrying person.

[16:24]

So Seppo here was like a board-carrying person. He could see from his own point of view, but he couldn't see from his teacher's point of view. So Seppo, I mean, Ganto didn't want to tell him he was wrong. This is very skillful. He didn't want to say, well, Seppo, you're really wrong because blah, [...] blah. He said, that old tokusan, as enlightened as he is, he really doesn't understand the last word of Zen. I should go tell him. He's really criticizing Seppo. But he's doing it by talking about tokusan. Very skillful. Extremely skillful. So, Zeppo still felt it kind of puffed up.

[17:36]

So, Ganto went to his old teacher. Well, Ganto, the teacher, Tokuzan, heard about this. Nyogen says, there's a monk that's not mentioned in the story. But he says, but I'll call him, he doesn't have a name, he's not worthy of a name, but I'll call him Budinsky. He went and told Togasan about, you know, what Ganto had said. And so, Togasan sent his his Jisha to get Ganto, and he said, Ganto, what is this you said about me? Am I not, is there something wrong with me? Am I not a worthy teacher?

[18:39]

And Ganto said, look, in his ear, this is the story, in his ear. It doesn't say what he said. He just said, he whispered something in his ear, and Ganto said, and Tokusan went... So then, the next day, when Tokusan went to the Dharma Buddha Hall to give a lecture, he gave a very unusual lecture, very unusual talk. very different kind of talk. Sometimes when a teacher gives a talk, gives a lot of talks, sometimes the students wish, I wish he would give a different kind of talk. Or when he gives a very different kind of talk, they say, oh, that's wonderful.

[19:39]

So this is the kind of talk that Tokusan gave. Very unusual talk. Everybody felt very good. And so then Ganto got up and clapped his hands, and he said, wonderful, how happy that I am that our old man has realized the last word. From now on, he'll be subject to no one. Now, this is the end of the story. Still, what is the point? Now, you may ask, what was the lecture about? What did he say? Or you may say, what did Ganto whisper in Tog San Vir? This is a very, very obscure poem. Nobody knows the point. Who was right?

[20:52]

And who is wrong? Very difficult to figure this out. And Mumon, in his comments, says, As for the last word, neither Ganto nor Tokusan have ever heard of it, even in a dream. When I examine this point, I find they are just like puppets on a shelf. Well, that's a kind of clue, actually. They're kind of like puppets on a shelf. He says, they don't get it. But that's a kind of compliment. This is Mumon's way of complimenting their activity. And he says, they're just like puppets on a shelf, which means they're in cahoots with each other to do something for seppu.

[21:56]

They're helping out seppu. They're really cooperating to help seppu. So when Ganto whispers into Tokusan's ear, maybe he's saying something like, look, you know, I said that about you, in order to help Seppel. I wasn't really insulting you." And Toksun said, hmm. So when Toksun went to give a lecture, he did something very special for Seppel. He really put himself out to help Seppel. But we don't know what he said. It doesn't matter what he said. That's not the point of the story. what he said, whatever you want to think he said.

[22:58]

The point of the story, according to my interpretation, is the mystery of how people interact with each other. We have a glimpse into 9th century monastic life with somebody very old, somebody pretty young, somebody in the middle, competition, all kinds of feelings that come up, all kinds of interactions that come up which are very human. Koan is not so much, doesn't put the emphasis on enlightenment, puts the emphasis on human interaction.

[24:06]

puts the emphasis on not so much on who's winning and who's losing, but how does everyone win. It's about subtlety and about helping people, helping each other. And what's wonderful about it is that without telling anyone anything directly, it tells everyone everything completely. This kind of skill is very mature.

[25:33]

Ganto's skill is very mature. Tokusan's skill is... Tokusan, his teaching for seppu was just to turn and walk back to his room. No anger. no hurt feelings, no retaliation, no subtle anything left over. Just, oh, is that so? Is that so? Is that so is really a great response for anybody in any situation. Oh, is that so? You son of a bitch. Oh, is that so?

[26:35]

Thank you. If Tokuzan was a little younger, he might have given him 30 blows, He only gave 30 blows to people as a compliment, not as a punishment. Thogasan's activity is, if carried continuously and always, is very mature. Nyogen Sensaki says, the point of Zen is how you show your Zen in an argument is how to find peace, not how to win the argument.

[27:56]

Whether or not the argument is settled is not the point. The point is how you find your own peaceful place. So, within the monastery or within a Zen practice or within our life, we're constantly confronted with just this kind of situation. So, Seppo and Ganto are like puppets. I mean, Ganto and Tokusan are like puppets. They're acting out a play for Seppo. So, Mumon says, they're just like a couple of puppets. That's right. They're acting out this play for Seppo. But Seppo is not quite mature enough to see it yet. Not quite mature enough

[29:03]

to realize it. He realizes it somewhere as a seed, but it doesn't flower yet. It flowers later when Seppo and Ganto are up in the mountains. And Ganto enlightens Seppo, or he helps Seppo to get enlightened when they're on a journey to visit some other teacher and they're holed up in the mountains in a snowstorm and Seppo is sitting zazen and Ganto is just relaxing and Ganto says to Seppo What are you doing sitting there like a stone Buddha, a stone statue all day long?

[30:06]

Why don't you relax?" And Seppo says, well, you know, even though I've been studying a long time and practicing a long time, I still feel uneasy about my understanding. And Ganto, and Seppo says, maybe you can help me out. And Ganto says, well, tell me all the things you've learned. And Senpo starts to tell him all of the things that he learned in his long study. And Ganto says, look, all the things you learned will not help you. You can't count others' treasures as your own. What you understand has to come directly from yourself. And at that point, Sepul was enlightened. So, this is after, that story is after this one.

[31:08]

These were very good friends. So, this story continues. for a long, long time with these two monks. Someone has a poem that says, I have a very strong power When the wind blows, I bend myself gracefully." Most of the time, you gain by giving in, and you lose by insisting your way. This story is really about us.

[32:16]

We use Seppo and Ganto and Tokusan as a kind of mirror, but it's really a picture of us and how we act with each other and interact with each other and continually looking at faults, problems, accomplishment, you know, this little koan is dealing with all these things. It's dealing with accomplishment, faults, ignorance, skillful means, the situation of working, how people

[33:22]

interact and work together with age and rank, position, all the things that we're constantly working with. And what it points to is we're constantly working with all this forever. Tokusan is right. Sometimes Seppo is right. Sometimes Kanto is right. Sometimes the teacher is wrong. Sometimes the student is wrong. But who's right and who's wrong? It's not a matter of right and wrong. Ultimately, it's not a matter of who's right and who's wrong.

[34:25]

It's a matter of, let the truth be right. This is the most important thing. As long as we hang on to our own position and see things from one point of view, we get into, you're right and I'm wrong, this is right, that's wrong. Baba in ad nauseum. Enlightened activity is to be able to see the reality, the truth. Let the truth be right, not me right or you right or me wrong or you wrong or this is right and this is wrong. It's not a matter of that. As long as we don't know how to bend with the wind and always insist on our position, we enter the hell realm.

[35:43]

Then at the end, Mulman has a verse. He says, if you grasp the first word, you will realize the last word. The last word and the first word, these are not one word. So in the first part, it looks like the last and the first are the same. But then he says, they're not the same. The same and not the same. The first, if you understand the first, it's the same as the last, the first word. When Seppo, I was living on Mount Seppo, two monks came to him and Seppo came out of his little hut and he faced the monks and he said, what is it?

[36:57]

And the monks said, what is it? And Seppo hung his head turned around and went back into his hut. Later, when the monks went to Gonto, they told him the story. Gonto said, if only I had told old Seppo, given him my last word, he wouldn't have failed. And later on, the monks came back and they asked him, Well, what is your last word?" And Kanto said, well, the last word is, my last word for seppo is, this is it. The last word for what is it is, this is it. The first word is the same as the last word.

[38:02]

But they're not the same. Suzuki Roshi once told a little story about two monks who were discussing the Dharma. Two monks were discussing the Dharma and they were going at it pretty ferociously.

[39:09]

And when they got to a certain point, they couldn't, they, you know, were kind of like this. And one said, well, what do we do now? And the other one said, let's have a cup of tea. So they sat down and had a cup of tea.

[39:42]

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