Good morning. How's the sound now? A little loud. So welcome everyone. My name is Linda and I'm wondering if there's anyone who's here for the first time today. All old friends, wonderful. And hello to everyone online as well. So this afternoon we'll be having a very special occasion. Michael Deneau will be ordaining as a priest this afternoon. So you're all invited to come. That will be at 3 o'clock and, of course, a reception and joy afterwards. Joy during, joy after. And I was reflecting, you know, in the past 12 months... This will be the fourth ordination ceremony. There have been two jukais, and this will be the second priest ordination.

[01:04]

So it's really wonderful. And, you know, I was thinking about how ordination ceremonies just seem to occasion so much joy in the sangha, as well as, of course, in the people who are taking vows, taking precepts. And I was reflecting on my own Jukai, my lay ordination, many years ago. Yeah, 30 years ago now. And, well, the first time I attended one, I felt all this joy in the room. But I didn't quite understand what was happening. And when it was coming time for my own Jukai the following year, I was... I was feeling, of course, nervous about being in a ceremony and being the focus of some attention. And then I remembered attending my first Jukai, and I realized, oh, this year this is my role.

[02:10]

Last year my role was to celebrate the people who were taking Jukai, and this year my role is to receive that joy. And it made it not personal and very spacious for me to just... be able to be there and be, you know, it's like, congratulations. It's like, thank you. You know, just very, very open, very unhindered. So that's been with me. And of course, I've been going through the ceremony quite a bit in preparation for this afternoon. And, you know, it's just... The ceremony just continues to deepen in power and meaning for me over the years. I certainly don't remember that much about the first time I went to a Jukai ceremony when I was one of the ordinees. I memorized my lines, but I couldn't say that I was fully there for it.

[03:15]

I was too focused on trying to do what I was supposed to be doing in the ceremony, which is a wonderful way to focus the mind. But every time since then, it's just kind of gone deeper and deeper as I've listened to the words over and over again. I think I must have attended at least 100 ordination ceremonies in the last 30 years, many of them at San Francisco Center, but also here and going. to different temples to see friends ordained. So, um, yeah, it's a, and it also over the years, it's just become more and more evident that it's a family gathering. We're all coming together and supporting, you know, our family and the Dharma. So I want to talk some about the script itself today. Some of the parts that as I was reading it this time really stood out for me and to talk about them a little bit, um, But to begin by saying that when the Buddha first started teaching there was of course no formal ceremony.

[04:21]

People would just come and ask him to teach them or whatever the exchange was and the Buddha would just say something to the effect of yes, follow me. So it was just that simple. But over time as the as the guidelines for the monastic community developed, the precepts, that became integral to entering the community. These are our guidelines. This is how we live. Not just the rules, but this is how we live to enact this way of life, to manifest this way of life. So entering on the Buddhist path and taking the precepts have been deeply interrelated with from the Buddhist time. And in our lineage of Zen, we have the 16 bodhisattva precepts. And Dogen Zenji actually created this version of the 16 precepts from, I mean they came in several, but the iteration that we have, my understanding is it's actually Dogen's.

[05:38]

but it came from the Brahmanet Sutra in China, where they had usually like a 10 major and 48 minor. So it's been condensed and simplified. And these were the ones, these 16 were the ones that he focused on for his disciples. So at the beginning of the ceremony, oh, first I should say the first the abbot, well in this case the abbot or the preceptor, sprinkles wisdom water on everyone. And there's never any explanation of that. They're throwing water in my direction, everyone else is bowing, I'll bow with them. But it's to purify the space. You know, water is often a symbol of purifying the space. And... The particular meaning of purification in Zen is not to get rid of defilements, it's the non-separation of all being.

[06:49]

So it's purifying our mind to be able to see true reality as it is. And that's Sojin's name, you know, essence of purity, white dragon essence of purity, Sojin. And the purity is not that he was a pure and perfect person. It's that his mind was clear. So first there's purifying the space and then invoking the presence and compassion of our ancestors in faith that we are Buddha, we enter Buddha's way. And that just always like It's me in the heart. In faith that we are Buddha, we enter Buddha's way. That simultaneity of trust, even though trust, intuition, gut feelings, something in this is the right way, whatever it was that led us here to this practice, to this place today, that

[08:03]

that intuition, that faith, that we are Buddha, that we are one, one in ourselves and one with everything. That is how we enter Buddha's way. That is how we follow the path of practice, how we manifest. And going on, sent to the ordinand, you have come here to be ordained as a disciple of Buddha. Listen attentively. Due to the coming together of auspicious circumstances in your present life, this ceremony has been made possible. So this next part is about noticing and expressing all the... all that there is to be grateful for, all the causes and conditions.

[09:10]

But this is true for all of us. I mean, we're all taking the precepts, being in the ceremony. That's the wonderful thing. We're all participating in this, and we all get to receive them together. So, as the ordinand is experiencing gratitude and appreciation for all the elements in his life, that brought him to this point, you can also be mindful of that in your own life. Your family, your lineage, all that brought you here, your teachers, you know, when we reflect on our lives, some of the things that seemed most devastating may turn out to be the things that ultimately brought us to the Dharma. Because it prompted in us that search. Please reflect on the causes and conditions that have made this ceremony possible.

[10:16]

Consider the innumerable blessings of your family and friends. Strive to return at least a small part of these miraculous gifts and with your life express your gratitude to all of those who have cared so much for you now and in the past. This section also talks about joy. Even the Buddhas and ancestors cannot but admire you who are earnestly seeking the Buddha's path in this world with sincere belief in the Dharma and practicing your way with thoughtful consideration for all beings. And this is what we're all trying to do. This is the practice that we're all taking up. Again, today we're focused on one person celebrating, uplifting, witnessing one person. But this is also each of us because we're not separate. And then there's shaving the head.

[11:17]

Traveling the path of Buddha, one must be in the state of renunciation. So shaving the head has long been a symbol of renunciation. to let go of the adornment of hair. And that's been true around the world and across many, many times. Because hair has historically conveyed so much about rank and position and privilege or not. One must be in the state of renunciation. This is not for renunciation itself. but for the sake of realizing the way. It's not about deprivation. It's about finding freedom within the circumstances of this life.

[12:19]

How to be free within it. It's a very mundane example in our modern lives. If we become completely enslaved to our... I regret that word, hooked on our phones, we're not free. So to set it aside for periods of time is to find freedom. So all the things in our lives can become hooks that keep us from a greater freedom. One of my teachers used to say, if renunciation has not brought you joy, it hasn't gone deep enough. but it's not pushing something away, it's letting go. How do we let go of anything extra? How do we find our way closer to freedom? And I think that most or all of us have experienced those times when letting go of something allowed us to open more widely and deeply to something else.

[13:33]

It might have been hard in the moment, or for a long time, but on the other side of the clinging, the grasping, the being hooked is release. Cutting off the hair is cutting the root of clinging. As soon as the root of clinging is cut, your original body appears. It's the same as this body, but now you know it's your original body. because there's nothing extra there. Changing into monastic robes now and leaving worldly passions, you are free. So this finding freedom beyond the realm of karma says realization beyond the realm of karma is the offering of true compassion.

[14:36]

Isn't that amazing that realization, realizing, becoming aware, seeing clearly, outside, well, what does beyond the realm of karma mean? It doesn't mean our karmic conditioning, our habits, our tendencies of body, speech, and mind, they don't go away. But they soften. And we can see through them and work with them and work around them. they become ways that we can manifest in the world. Here and now, not somewhere else. And as the ceremony goes on, there's a presentation of a whole series of things. So it's supposed to be free, but here you get all this stuff, all these gifts, some of which you've sewn yourself, like the rakasu and the okesa, some gifts like the oryoki bowls that someone else sews the cloths for you, and the zagu also.

[15:57]

So you get first a zagu, the bowing cloth, which is what keeps the okesa clean. We have a nice clean zendo in here. But historically, of course, the world was very dusty and often muddy. So to have a bowing cloth is really important. And the okesa. And the rakasu, the small version. So these are Buddha's robe. Throughout Buddhism, the pattern The rice field pattern of alternating squares or alternating rectangles is based on rice fields that the Buddha saw and thought this would be a good pattern because it can be made out of scraps of cloth. It doesn't have to be a whole piece. So the robe and then the oryoki bowls.

[17:01]

These are basically, in Buddha's time, these were... Essentially, a monk's only possessions, that was all they were really allowed to own, was a robe and a bowl and a needle and thread to mend them, and a staff for going around on pilgrimage. So today we have much more elaborate ones, certainly, than they did in the Buddha's time. Very beautiful ropes developed over... centuries and centuries. And then before receiving the precepts and the precept lineage of all Buddhas and ancestors, Your Nand will make an offering.

[18:08]

And then the preceptor says, I see by your sincere offering and bows that you wish to receive Buddhist precepts. Please know that the first step in receiving these precepts is the practice of repentance, the practice of admitting that you are a human being. I love that. Just admitting that you're a human being. with all the beauty and complications that entails. And the verse is, all my ancient tangled karma, from beginningless greed, hate and delusion, born through body, speech and mind, I now fully avow. And I practiced with that for a number of years, just that verse. And I came to not just understand it, but experience it as standing upright, as being upright in my entire being, in the midst of my own karma.

[19:28]

That's what I now fully avow means. It doesn't mean I... It often means that whatever our feelings about it are, that we just acknowledge them, that they're there. and then we don't deny them, we go forward, we engage with the people of our lives and our own lives and our own selves from this upright place. And in so many ways that's what this whole ceremony is about, is about encouraging this uprightness of being. And then you have these clothes and these bowls, these clothes that you get to learn how to manage and these bulls that you also get to learn how to manage. And this practice is a continual reminder. These forms are a continual reminder of how we want to meet the world, of how we want to meet other people, of how we want to meet ourselves.

[20:37]

The practice of admitting that you are a human being. And then it goes through a whole series of statements and receiving different parts of the precepts. And each time, you know, say, will you continue this truthful practice? That's the first one. Yes, I will. Three times. Will you continue this truthful practice? Yes, I will. Yes, I will. So it's not just, we practice not just to awaken. We practice to express awakening as well, to manifest that in the world, to be of service in the world. It's not a means end. It's always been absolutely continuous.

[21:43]

I know I've said that before. It can never be said enough because we hear it differently every time. And then basically the last thing is to receive the lineage document that goes from Shakyamuni all the way down to Bodhidharma, Dogen Zenji, Sojin Roshi, to me. and then to the person receiving the precepts. And then it curls up to the top again. So this beautiful... It's red. It's the blood vein, the lineage, the family tree. And like blood vein, it pumps. It's a circle. It goes right about to the top. And then we celebrate and eat cake.

[22:48]

Which feels just right. So when Sojun Roshi was about to be ordained in 1969, he asked Suzuki Roshi, what does it mean to be a Zen priest? And people... ask that a lot, especially now when it's like... Often people will go to Tassajara for a practice period or two before they ordain, but afterwards people pretty much come back to their daily lives and whatever they've been doing. So what does it mean to be a priest? So there were four priests that Suzuki Roshi had ordained Westerners before him. They were all off somewhere else, so they weren't around. There were several Japanese priests who were there with Suzuki Roshi.

[23:53]

But he didn't have other people around so much. He just modeled on Suzuki Roshi. He said, oh, sorry, I didn't get to the answer. what does it mean to be a Zen priest? And Suzuki Roshi said, I don't know. And I think this, you know, I've read this many times, and for a long time I thought it just meant, well, I don't know what it means for you. You're a Westerner, and I don't know fully what that means, and I don't know what this is going to turn into here. I don't know if this will take here, but I hope that it will. But I think it's also Bodhidharma's don't know. It's don't try to know this. Don't try to make it a thing that you can hang on to and be certain about. I got this now.

[24:57]

Okay, now you're dragging that around. So what is it to don't know and wholeheartedly do. That's the practice. So Sojin goes on and says, I began to realize how important not knowing was even though I felt I needed some answers. So I practiced with don't know in front of me as my priest's koan and it's still there. I don't know when he wrote this. I found this article. I think it probably appeared in The Wind Bell when, I'm guessing, when Sojun was abbot at San Francisco's end center, but I'm not really sure. Because it appeared in The Wind Bell, I thought maybe that was the case. But it's now, you can find it in Lion's Roar, and it's a wonderful article.

[26:00]

So I want to share a little more from Sojin's words from that. He says, from time to time, people want to define a Zen priest or the role of the priest or the functions of a priest. There are historical functions and role model functions. We should know what they are and practice and absorb them. But at the same time, we must be open to what the present situation calls for and be ready to respond to new situations differences in culture and the circumstances of a particular place and time. Suzuki Roshi was concerned that in the transition from Japan to America, the true essence not be lost. At the same time, he made a big effort to follow as well as to lead us. Made a big effort to follow as well as lead. That seems so right. And he goes on and says, my rule of thumb for ordaining a Zen priest is that the candidate must already be practicing with the same attitude as a priest.

[27:14]

Then after at least five years, ordination can become a natural step, an acknowledgement and an encouragement to continue. And when I first talked to Sojin about ordaining, Well, first he just said no. I was so surprised. Because I thought it was a good thing. And, of course, he would be very encouraging and kind and like me even more. None of that was conscious. But I got it and my response was just like, oh. And he was just like this. He's like, the work that you're doing is good work. And that is what you're focused on. That's the center of your life. I was still in graduate school at that point. So very busy and very focused on that. He said, for a priest, the practice is the center of your life.

[28:23]

It's not the only thing, but it's what everything else revolves around. It's what sits in the middle. And that really stayed with me. And when I read his words here, I'm like, yes, that's exactly it. Oh, and he also said, I basically will ordain someone as a priest when other people are already relating to them in that way. They are seeing them in that way. Then I will affirm what is already happening. And that was such a gift because I realized I don't have to wait to be a priest. I can just, I can, it wasn't like I can be a priest now, but whatever a priest is that is not separate from who I am now or from what's available to me right now, I can manifest in this way and someday that may be acknowledged in a formal way.

[29:36]

but I can follow this path that's in my heart and trust that. And that's the thing. And when that arises not just in my heart, between me and other people, then that's moving and words are just failing me here. I think you're getting it, and I hope you're getting it. Because it's like, this is all too dualistic. But it was like feeling this co-arising, and yes, feeling the co-arising and being able to relax into it. And that relaxing into it, rather than trying to reach out and grab for it, was really important and really grounding and settling. Sojin goes on and says, I think of a priest as someone who doesn't have any other ambition and whose whole life is devoted to practice for the sake of practice.

[30:42]

And I've definitely known people for whom that is true. And like Sojin, I mean, that was definitely Sojin. And he was very fortunate. in so many ways, to be able to manifest that in his life. To be able to lead Berkeley Sun Center for over 50 years and have a temple and not have to have, after a certain point, he didn't have to have any other work. But that's not so true for most people today. So, and I've known so many people who are completely and completely medical doctors and lawyers and scholars and short order cooks and you name it. In many ways it's harder.

[31:50]

Going to the monastery has its challenges, but in many ways it's easier because it cuts everything down. Now it's harder because there's internet most places. Then it was, you know, you were really separate and you really got to like focus and not have a lot of other things to think about. But it's just whatever we're practicing with now. But everything else he says in this still feels absolutely true. One's practice is wholehearted and selfless, accompanied by a strong desire to understand the Dharma. One is ready and willing to help and support others, and that willingness comes before one's own attainment. One's practice is steady and continuous, not contentious, competitive, materialistic, or easily discouraged. Most importantly, one is not doing it for one's own self-aggrandizement or for gain or position.

[32:57]

A priest should remain upright and honest and set an example for others. Can't argue with any of that. And, you know, the Japanese name for the ceremony of priest ordination is shuke tokudo, which means leaving home, attaining the way. And the ceremony for lay ordination, jukai, is zaikei tokudo, staying home, attaining the way. And in some circumstances, in some lineages, they look much more different. And in ours, it's like, how do you tell them apart when people are staying home and attaining the way as laypeople? and they're leaving home and staying home and attaining the way as priests.

[33:58]

So the great koan continues. I've been thinking about this a lot. So why ordain as a priest? What's the difference? All of these things. And especially when so many lay people here receive lay entrustment and are fully recognized as teachers. All the senior students have been Shuso. They all teach. They all offer the Dharma. So what's the difference? And for me at this moment, and I'm really interested in hearing what your thoughts are because we'll end this part in a minute. One thing is having the inner request, the vocation to become a priest.

[35:03]

For me, I had that in some small form from the time I was 11 years old. I remember seeing our pastor at church interacting with people after the Sunday sermon, and it was tea and... Well, then it was coffee and cookies time. Um... And just seeing the way that he was with people, that was like, something went off and it was like, I think that feels right to me. And that thread, but I didn't particularly relate with the Lutheran church or Christianity in general, so there was not any evident way to do this. But there were all these just little things throughout my life You know, somebody once said, if you were going to be any religion you could be, and I didn't know anything about Buddhism, what would you be? And I said, probably either Jewish or Catholic because of the ritual.

[36:07]

Like I didn't know anything about the, but it was just like the ritual and the form. So somehow I ended up here and it was like, perfect. So there's some inner affinity with the role and the way of being that that wants to manifest. And then many people have that, but they don't actually do it. So the other piece is actually doing it, actually taking vows as a priest. And every role that we take on, a way of talking about your role or your function is your dharma position. What are you doing? What are you actually doing? How are people relating with you? How are you seeing yourself? And every Dharma position that we have in our lives shapes us. We shape it, and it shapes us. Being at Tassajara, being at San Francisco Zen Center, here too, but there, it's like your identity. Whatever you're doing, you're doing it really, it's pretty full on.

[37:14]

And you're changing every few months or a year or two. So you get to see things like, okay, now I'm... Now I'm in charge of the meditation hall and I'm seeing two things really clearly. Like my mind is doing entirely different things than it used to. It's paying attention to different things, worrying about different things, busy in ways that it hasn't been because I'm trying to watch everything that's happening and take care of it. And people are relating to me differently. They're relating to me like the Eno. Some people tried to kind of suck up. Like... That day, positions are announced, and it's like, hi. And I'm like, whoa. And other people, I mean, everybody had their own responses. And then you get to take it off. A year later, you put it down, and you're not that anymore, and somebody else is doing that, and you have to give them that role and that space to do it the way they do it.

[38:17]

So this... this fluidity of changing roles. I see the power of these roles, these dharma positions, in bringing out different aspects of ourselves. And every role within the sangha is definitely a training position. Being abbot is really a training position, very full-time training position. And it's wonderful. And it's different. It's very different than anything. It's the same and it's different. So it's having some affinity and taking that step and living it. So I think in many ways that's the main difference I can see is between lay and priest practitioners is that priests... have chosen to take that path, and they are able, for whatever reason, to take that path.

[39:20]

Not everyone who really wants to and can't. There's life circumstances that mean that it just won't work for them to do that. But for those who wish to and can and do, that you're shaped in a particular way. That and doing ceremonies. And ceremonies shape you. It's not that it isn't for anyone else, but it's just that particularly officiating ceremonies is a particular experience, just as every experience that you've had in your lives that was powerful in one way or another shapes you. This is just a very particular one. And... So today we are celebrating somebody ordaining as a priest.

[40:30]

I'm very grateful. Thank you, Michael, for ordaining. And that's all I wanted to share today. And we have a little time if anyone has any questions or comments. Anyone online as well? Shure and then Gary. Thank you for your talk, Linda Roshi. My question is about time as it relates to the process of ordination. In your talk, you talked about, I think you attended your first Jukai, and then one year later, were participating in your own Jukai. I'm curious to hear you speak a little bit more about that, because that can seem maybe fast.

[41:34]

And I know some people, it's many years. And as it relates to my own practice, I often get comments of, oh, you move quickly. And I wonder what that means. And in contemplating where this path will take me, I wonder, and how do I, when do I know, like when does one know this question of timing and how did it feel for you and your experience? Okay. Well, by the time I came to Berkeley Zen Center, I had been practicing the Dharma for over 10 years. And in different, few different traditions, but very regularly. Like I had a daily practice for, I guess by that point, like 12 years. No, 14 years by the time I came to Berkeley Zen Center.

[42:38]

And I'd been doing long retreats. I'd been doing Vipassana retreats, residential ones that would be like 10 days long, and one was two weeks long. So it wasn't like the Dharma was really new to me, or anything about it was. This was a new form, and I'd been practicing for the better part of a year when I... started doing... Yeah, the first Jukai was well into a year before I came. So I guess by the time I actually did Jukai, it was getting close to two years that I'd been here. But from the first morning I came here, I just came every day because it happened to be very convenient. So causes and conditions lined up. I had an 8 o'clock place I had to be, and I lived... in the other direction. So it was literally on my way. There was no problem in getting here.

[43:39]

I just came early. So there's like... So there's the outward or the behavioral time and then there's also the inner time because for some people... Encountering the Buddha Dharma is like coming home. It's confusing, and the words don't quite make sense, but there's some deep resonance there. There's some knowing. And for other people, it's... I don't know how to describe it, because that wasn't my experience, but there are more challenges there. The time has nothing to do with anything. Really. And often... those who have the hardest time. I had a hard time connecting to the Four Noble Truths because I didn't get suffering. I was so good at making suffering go away.

[44:41]

Only it didn't. So that made it very hard to deal with. But it's what I know now. That's one of the wellsprings of my practice. All my ancient tangled karma. So it's not... It's not linear time. That's what I want to say. It has nothing to do with linear time. It does have to do with heart and it does have to do with fit and how it manifests and relationship and particularly relationship with a teacher when they see you as ready. Sometimes they're off, but a lot of times they're pretty on. Gary. And I see we have someone online after Gary. I wonder how you see the, you know, in the Bodhisattva ceremony,

[45:59]

we continually chant the precepts and all this kind of... A lot of our schooling is built into that ceremony, and I wonder how you see that working with... as opposed or in conjunction with the priest ordination. Well, yeah, I mean, to renew our vows... It's one of the main things. My understanding is the full moon ceremony is the oldest ceremony in Buddhism, or at least the oldest one that exists to this day. Because then it happened twice a month on the full and new moons because the monks would be out wandering on alms rounds so they could watch the passing of the moon and they could all gather together. And they came to renew their vows. Then it was like 250-some, and they would recite them all together.

[47:01]

So you see it more as renewal versus... It's renewal, yeah. Well, there's... I mean, they're available to everyone, and they're pretty universal. I mean, they resonate a lot with the Ten Commandments, etc. But to take them formally, to not just be things that you're... It's like even in... In many Christian traditions, there's confirmation. You know, you're doing this all along, but then you're kind of confirming, I'm really choosing to do these things. I'm really committing to do this. And then I'm renewing my commitment regularly. I renew my vow. Hi. Good morning. Thank you for your talk. Hello. I just wanted to start. I might misheard it, but there was a point where it's repent for being human, and it struck me wrong, and I thought maybe something was lost in translation.

[48:12]

Yes, let me find the words. Thank you. So receiving these practices is the practice of repentance, like confession, the practice of admitting that you are a human being. Oh, okay. That makes a difference. Thank you. So it's saying, yes, I am. I'll look up. Here's the camera. I'll look up. So to speak. It's the practice of saying, yes, I am human. I am on this path as a human being, and I'm acknowledging that with the totality of my being in all of its forms, that this is who I am. I am a human being full of flaws and glories, and I bring all of myself without exception. Beautiful. That changes my understanding. Just a question, though, about the word repentance. It feels very rejecting and antithetical or paradoxical to then the teaching it's saying, which is accept us whole.

[49:16]

So I feel like those are contradictory messages within the same. Language is really dualistic, and it's really hard to explain both and in the same breath. So it often goes back and forth between acknowledging many times we do things that cause harm to other people, whether intentionally or unintentionally, whether large or small. And you could say we regret or we're sad that we've caused harm, but just to have the experience of it. I mean, this is a translation. I have no idea what it was in medieval Japanese or modern Japanese. But, you know, and of course, yeah, the translation is always complicated. I would say my guideline has been I trust the Buddha Dharma and I question the translation.

[50:22]

You know, or I hold a possibility that the translation is not conveying the full thing. So I think you can try playing with that and see where it leads you. But when you read other translations, you get different views and it's really interesting. If you can, find other translations of things or look at the bigger context. It can really help. Sojun used to say, I study to verify my practice. So I have a feeling about this and then I read and I see where does that actually go? Does what I'm reading verify my practice or does it challenge it? And both are good. Thank you so much. Thank you. Ben. Is it okay if I ask a question? Yes. Is that too greedy? No. Just very quickly, I think I remember Sojin saying something about repentance that I found very helpful, that it literally means to turn around or to look again.

[51:27]

One of the two or both. So not really maybe like the connotations that our culture might have around that word. Earlier in your talk, there was that line about realization beyond karma or realization beyond the realm of karma, something like that. And you spoke sort of about the softening of our karmic habits, that they don't disappear, which makes sense to me. Is there something beyond that? Like when I heard that line, it made me think of somewhere in continuous practice, Dogen says, even if you hide a crooked intention, that itself is still continuous practice. And there's this feeling that it's... The realization is sort of... always happening even if we don't know it, and also beyond our willing it to happen or not happen, something like that.

[52:37]

Yes. And I think also that there are definitely experiences beyond the realm of karma, moments of opening. And then when we try to express them in language, I mean, they can't be fully expressed, which is why, you know, like, you know, the gestures and the shouts and putting a shoe on the head and walking out the door, you know, it's like, how to express what is literally, you know, if there's no separation between anything, it's like, how do you express this versus that? It's like, what is it to be beyond? Like, yeah, you, it, I think I can say it briefly by saying non-duality includes duality. If it didn't include duality, then non-duality would be dualistic.

[53:38]

Are we at time? Or do we have time for one more? You say. One more. Mira. Thank you. This priest thing, I have a little trouble with it. I remember early on Sojin gave someone priest ordination with certain... expectations I think this is at the beginning and the person wasn't able to fulfill those expectations because of like what happened with you you were a graduate student and this person was raising very young children and very involved in their home life and their marriage and that was like their world but they also wanted to be a priest I'm not sure why um

[54:53]

And Sojin was disappointed in that. So when I think of a priest, I do think that the person's main focus in life should be directed towards serving the temple. So that's how I feel about it. And if you're not able to serve the temple and the sangha, I don't know why somebody should be a priest. I think they should just take lay ordination. So that's my feeling. I also know people who combine those two. And it may have been a time in their life when they became a priest that it felt like, yes, that's exactly what they're going to do. And then the shape of their life called them in a different direction. I mean, we can't know that ahead of time. So... Yeah.

[56:00]

Yeah. Ah, I see. I see. Yeah. But basically, yes, I think if you're a temple priest, you are serving the temple. And so many of the... you know, lay students, lay teachers, you know, the senior students, also have served the temple for many, many years in many of the same ways that the priests do. So it's, what Sojin ended up saying about, like, how lay and priest work together is, you know, they should be mutually supportive. You know, there's many, many similarities, and some differences, but mainly just work together, mutually support one another. That I agree with completely. But we should all be doing that. You know, we can all be doing that. Okay. Thank you very much.

[57:01]

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