Good morning. It's my great pleasure to welcome longtime friend of Berkley Zen Center, Reverend Mushin Patricia Ikeda, internationally known mindfulness and Buddhist teacher, social justice activist, author, diversity, equity, inclusion consultant, just over the way in Oakland. Mushin is a core teacher at the East Bay Meditation Center. and widely published, been turning the wheel of the Dharma for quite a while in many realms. Noteworthy, she's written a chapter for a new book called Emergent Dharma, Asian American Feminist Buddhists on Practice, Identity and Resistance, which will be published in early December of this year. Welcome, Lucian. After inviting me, I'm being recorded and I usually, therefore, will state the date and the place in which a talk is being given for archival purposes because, as it's

[01:59]

aged Buddhist, I'm very aware that our time, our place, and our positionality in society at that time and place all come together to create the causes and conditions in which a talk is given and of course in which a talk is received differently by each individual. Gathered here today at the Center, Berkeley, California, September 13th in the year 2025. We are each other's refuge, I would posit. You know the three jewels, the three refuges. So Buddha, Sangha, Sangha.

[03:02]

We are each other's refuge, each other's Sangha or community of spiritual practice. The poet Gwendolyn Brooks, American poet Gwendolyn Brooks famously wrote in Paul Robeson, we are each other's harvest. So I love being able, my background's in poetry, I love being able to quote poetry in a Zen setting since so much of our tradition is transmitted through poetry. Through image, through evocation, rather than delineation, through gestures towards the moon. Once again, Gwendolyn Brooks, we are each other's harvest. We are each other's business. We are each other's magnitude and bond.

[04:05]

Those are very famous lines. We are each other's harvest. So you know in Zen there's a whole quest history of inquiry question. So I'll ask you how how how might we be each other's harvest? How might I be your harvest, how might you be my harvest? We are each other's business. We are each other's, this is where I think the poem really lit us off. We are each other's magnitude. So let's take a moment, if this works for you, and I don't know if this is doing so, but maybe break a bit out of our usual Venn protocol. by inviting ourselves to just look around the room, perhaps reading with our eyes, our smile, show the people we see around us, across from us, if we've done some yoga, perhaps a bit of a twist to briefly look at people behind us, if you're here.

[05:17]

So I'm just going to take a moment and greet you. I'm a seeing person, so hi there, I see you there. I see friends, some old, some new. Mm-hmm. And people on Zoom, you're a little far away. Oh, I see, okay. There, oh, okay, somewhere down there. Thank you, I thought, why so good? Okay, all right. And perhaps now, if you like closing your eyes, taking a moment of mindfulness, directing the attention, what was this brief exercise like for me? No judgments, mindfulness, non-judging, only honesty. If it felt awkward and weird, that can be interesting.

[06:19]

So no judgments. I'm not setting you up for anything. It's just how was that for you? Just noticing. Yeah, you know, San Francisco Zen Center and its affiliates and temples that have come from through that lineage. for many years, and I was appointed to be the chairperson of, I think, San Francisco's and San Diego City Center's first diversity committee a long time ago. I don't know, 2004, something like that. At that point, City Center would consistently get input to their credit.

[07:21]

They were asking for, particularly from people of color and other people, like, well, you know, why don't you come here more often? And how is it when you come here? And the calls immediately said the same thing. They said, no one looks at us. No one smiles. My goodness gracious. And I know that it was out of reverence and good-heartedness and, you know, the lower gaze and that kind of stuff. So it's cultural. It's organization cultural. And to people from the outside, it just looked. So I do encourage us to connect in ways that are appropriate. Because even though I don't know all of you, At this very moment, I do know this. You are my harvest. You are my business.

[08:21]

And you are my magnitude and bond. Why is this? Because we do live kind of on top of the Hayward Fault. And geologists have said for many years now that we're due and we're overdue for the big one. The big earthquake like the 4.6 one that just a week ago caused much destruction and death in Afghanistan and which also impacted other continuous nations. So, this is just a fact. If the big one occurred in this Dharma talk, I'm not home with my adult child who lives with me and I'm into emergency preparation in my emergency backpack.

[09:35]

I have a crowbar and we have three days supply of water. If it happens, I'm not there all the time. Now I'm here with you. And we will have one another. That's a fact, right? And of course, Buddhism, so big on impermanence, impermanence, impermanence, anicca, anicca. No, I'm here with you. And we will have one another. And I don't know, maybe the... Electricity will go out, so maybe not with you on the Zoom. However, who do you have? I mean, that's a good question to ask. Who's your magnitude and bond? And we will have one another quite literally to decide what to do if there are choices to be made, and how, in what manner, do we take action.

[10:37]

So we will have to decide what to do if there are choices to be made that go outside the usual, you know, Saturday morning thing, routine, and how we do it, how we do it, and with whom. And this would be in microcosm, I would say, a situation at every moment in Trader Joe's at the doctor. all of these different places at any moment. So, not to get us hypervigilant, relax, relax. At the same time, are we prepared? Has our practice prepared us for this very basic act of connecting to community? If we're alone, we're our own sangha.

[11:45]

We're our own refuge. What do we do? The title of this talk, therefore, is considering what's going on now, people in the future can internet search for what was happening at this time. The title of my talk, therefore, is What's Zen got to do with it? Which, as you know, is an allusion to what's love got to do with it, one of my favorite songs. What's got to do with it? Fascism, grieving, and keeping our eyes on the prize. These are a few of the circumstances, the causes and conditions that I understand, in my understanding, are happening. So fascism in the United States, other countries as well.

[12:46]

Grieving, everybody I know, myself included, we are grieving so many losses, so many losses from the pandemic. And I'm talking about every losses, but collective losses, huge losses. And for Berkeley Zen Center, I know that there have been very, very personal losses here in the spiritual leadership. So fascism grieving and our eyes on the prize. Another Zen question. If you subscribe to this, of course it has a lot of significance for those of us who grew up in the United States, went through or are aware of the civil rights Is this something that you espouse? And if so, what is the prize for you, not for anyone else?

[13:49]

What is the prize for you? And are you keeping your eyes on it? Are you keeping, if you're low vision, are you keeping your concentration? Are you keeping your focus? Once again, choices to be made. What do we do? How do we take this action and with whom? So in my point of view and experience, Zen Buddhist practice, and I should mention here that I came into Buddhism in 1982. in Ann Arbor, Michigan, the Zen Buddhist temple, Ann Arbor, which was the first offshoot temple of the mothership, which is the Zen Buddhist temple, Toronto, Canada, American Zen group founded by the founding teacher, Venerable Samu Sinim, who was a Korean monk fluent in English.

[15:11]

He'd lived in Canada for many, many years. And then went on to also practice both the Soto and the Rinzai lineages of Zen, which of course are Japanese. And I've been trying to do some studying on Chan. I'm from China, as well as I was through Thich Nhat Hanh. A Vietnamese Buddhist recently told me, Thich Nhat Hanh is not representative of Vietnamese Buddhism, which I'm not surprised about because he was such a radical, and in my point of view, a very genius teacher, who of course established an organization. However, he was Vietnamese. So when I say then, I am talking about a broad diversity of practices and cultures in its many forms.

[16:19]

Zen, of course, is . Son in Korean, Chan from China, I guess Tian in Vietnamese, and we are all Zen. In my point of view, in my experience, Not necessarily theory, which is one thing, reading all the books and the stories, which are wonderful. A long time ago, culture has come to us in many translations. But the practices themselves are historically, and maybe even now, in my point of view, are practices of preparation. To act boldly, boldly, wisely. as much as we can, strategically, I believe in strategic action, I don't have unlimited time and energy, tools as collectives in response to what is happening now and to reality in as much as we can know it.

[17:30]

So this is my point of view. Zen Buddhist practice, practice, not theory, is act boldly, wisely, strategically, as individuals, as collectives, in response to what is happening now, which is perceived differently by all of us, and to reality in as much as we can know it. Oh, I think it's translated by one of the famous Cleary brothers, probably Thomas Cleary. It's a volume, from a translation from part of the Lotus Sutra. And then St. Clary translated it into entry into the realm of reality. And I just thought, yeah, exactly. It just always cracks me up. I'm like, okay then. Kind of throwing down the gauntlet.

[18:33]

And I think it's wonderful. Entry into the realm of reality. who do not do Zen practice and are like, oh, you know, Zen means, first of all, you have a minimalist interior decorating. Right? Yeah. And you have the money to be able to do that. Either that or you just live super simply. And second of all, it means that you're like, really like, really weirdly calm all the time. Yeah, so I'm hearing by the laughter to understand that this is not so. Practicing entering the realm of reality. That's a big realm. In which, I don't know about you, but I don't mean mean like calm.

[19:35]

trying to deal with all this stuff that's going on, a lot of freaking out and running around, what the heck? So there can be so many unpredictable factors that affect an individual or community state of readiness to self-organize for action, to improve the learning curve, factors such as grieving, which is a deep, very human, and non-linear process. As I understand it happening here, organically speaking, at Berkeley Sun Center due to the recent of the last two tablets. In my experience, grief, Samu Sinem, my first Zen teacher used to say, meditation is entering timeless In my experience, grief is .

[20:41]

It doesn't go on anyone's schedule. It has its own pace, its own process. And even though it's tried to be schematized and mapped out, no, no, no. Often, soul, cultural factors, age, all different kinds. of factors as we're processing, maybe so many emotions, unfinished things we didn't say or do, wish we did, we did, but wish we could do it again. So there's so much there. And it can really slow us down. That's my experience. So there are all of these factors that that affect our state of readiness to respond to the present moment.

[21:43]

And yet, here we are. We must. As I'm here, I'm personally remembering I worked quite a bit with Alan Sinati back in the day with Buddhist Peace Fellowship. And I miss him. And yet, and yet, We might do well to ask ourselves, perhaps using what I understand is, I don't know, I guess it was developed San Francisco Zen Center language. We might do well to ask ourselves the question to all that is happening right now that we're aware of in the United States and in the world, which is a lot, what I've heard that come out of Zen Center is, what is the appropriate response? What is the appropriate response? Recognizing causes and conditions always changing.

[22:45]

If we are practicing being in multicultural situations, different cultures have different generations. In some cultures, It's very connective to make eye contact. In others, no. If you're with your senior, you want to be respectful, your gaze is slightly lowered, and direct eye contact is going to be rather aggressive or unusual. So many different things. To know, ask ourselves, what is the appropriate response? And sometimes we have a longer period of time to formulate that, and sometimes almost no time whatsoever. So, to shift the talks I'm giving due to the emergencies, the emergencies of the times in which we live from into what I'm calling the rude Dharma talk.

[23:56]

I just gave one in Saturday last weekend. So what is the appropriate response? That sounds very polite to me. So to be more rude and colloquial, because I live in Oakland, considering the collapse of democracy, of our environment, our systems of higher education, our systems of immigration, our medical systems, Considering the devastating wars in Gaza, Ukraine, Yemen, and really so much more, instead of what is the appropriate response is, what the F are we going to do? Really. What can we do? What does our Zen practice propel us to do beyond our fears and understanding?

[24:59]

for our homes, our families, our belongings. What does our practice ask us to do, bringing in a Tibetan Buddhist form of practice in this exchange of self for others, which means I need to take care of myself and what about everybody else? What is my What am I to do to take care of the most vulnerable around us? And what is most vulnerable in self? So that's my question. We could call it applying our practice. But what's Sam got to do with this? Fascism, grieving, keeping our eyes on the prize. Do we know what our prize is? Nonprofits of which, this is one, churches, 501c3 religious nonprofits, and nonprofits are required to have a vision statement, and that's usually accompanied by a vision statement, and often a five to 10-year strategic plan.

[26:16]

Organizationally, this is what helps us when we go through the process to try to get as much buy-in as possible. Then for each of us, I turned 71 this year, so I'm trying to be very responsible. I do live with my adult and only child, and I ordered a book online. It's a notebook. And on the front, it's black, and it's got white writing, and it's got some nice little flower designs to make it look nice. And the title of the notebook is, now it's your problem, because I'm dead. Very advised. We are laughing, and I hope we take it seriously. It doesn't matter what your age is. You might think, ah, you know, I'm with these old people. It's for them. Unless you're God, we don't. We don't know. We don't know.

[27:17]

So just some passwords. Very important these days. Are we going to leave behind a mess? Or will we do the best that we can to be kind, to be responsible, to leave things in order? For each of us, what's your prize? Keeping our eyes on the prize. What is the goal of Berkeley Zen Center? What's your mission? What's your vision? Keeping in mind what is happening now. As Buddhists, What is our goal? What is our path of concentration and effort? For those of us, myself included, who have taken the bodhisattva vans, what is our responsibility to the many beings? This, I think, is, what is our responsibility to the many beings?

[28:22]

This, I think, is a real life koan. I'll use that term. Not something we're reading in a book. I'm very happy personally to see the term that's being highlighted kind of right now. It's been gaining steam for a while. Eco Dharma. Spirit Rock Meditation Center just had an Eco Dharma gathering. I have been online as a speaker for a group centered in Washington, D.C., One Earth Sangha. They do eco-dharma work. There's an eco-dharma center in Colorado, I think, with David Loy, Kriti Kanko, both Zen priests and teachers. Therefore, when we say the We're talking about a lot of beings, a lot of beings, including many non-human beings.

[29:28]

And all of the life that's even around Berkeley Zen Center, we're in Berkeley, and yet I took a little walk on the garden here, how much life there is, some of which we can see, some of which we cannot see. So traditionally, a lot of Zen stories are often kind of rude, sometimes weird and violent. Just as the reality of our lives can be so very undesirable, so destabilizing, so not what we want, yet here it is. I talk to other Buddhists from other lineages. They're like, oh, no, Zen, they hit you with sticks. No, no, abusive. And I'm like, no, no, it's not really like that.

[30:35]

And again, those Tang Dynasty stories, there's a lot of slapping and, you know, Nansen and the cat. Oh, horrible, horrible. And when I look at my own life, It's kind of like that. So for me, the Zazen, a word used here, the practice of Zen meditation, a lot of what often looks to others like sitting around on our butts, not moving, not doing anything that looks productive. So for me, Zazen means we're engaging in not always successful in my case, of not running away from undesirable realities. In other words, staying relatively fixed and stationary, not because that's intrinsically a good thing to do, or not because that's a response, because it is definitely not, but because it is a practice I experience as not running away

[31:50]

from undesirable realities, from within myself, of my perception, of my own actions, my thoughts, my behaviors, as well as my reaction to both my inner and outer realities. So not running away. Sometimes I said not running away. And again, in the Zen tradition, maybe not Soto, but certainly, and very much so Korean, also what has been called Zen combat. I think it's also called Mondo, right? This spirited exchange between teachers and students or the pithy and pointed, let's get down to it, interactions between that this lore, this heritage, this lineage we have is always a potentiality. a possibility, this legacy in the air, in our meditation halls, I think.

[32:59]

The potentiality of interactions, of responses, of actions, that are both alive and lively. So what's Zen got to do with it? have had the opportunity both to witness and be part of our tradition that's, I guess, sometimes called Zen combat. A lot of people don't like that word. It's like anything military. No, no, no, no, no. I come from a military. Nisei, second generation Japanese American. He was drafted into the war in World War II. from where he lived on the farm in Indiana. He said he never forgot opening that letter that said, greetings from your president. And then he went into the army and he loved, he loved the army.

[34:07]

He loved the army. So he raised, particularly my brother and me, we were his army that way, which was really good. He was mad. He didn't spank us. He'd order us to go in the corner and drop down and do push-ups. We didn't wash dishes. We did a kitchen piece. I'm not kidding you. I just have to say this, too, because I have a piece. I would like to publish it. I have written about how he trained us to be parachuters because he actually was stationed in Japan. Irony of Ironies. He was sent to Japan. at the end of World War II. And on the weekends, he got special pay if you did training as a parachuter. And this pin that he wore that had, it was a metal pin with a parachute, and the words, we drop with fire.

[35:10]

We drop with fire. You parachute down into where the active gunfire is going on. Sorry, that was my childhood. We lived in a little trailer, and my mother would be like, oh. He would set up a chair in the middle of the living room, and then we'd have to go on it, and that was the airplane. And then he'd shout, now jump! And then we'd jump off, and then the thing was, he said, when you hit the ground, you can't have your light your appendages sticking up because you'll break them. So you roll yourself into the fetal position, and hopefully you're going to hit like there, and then you roll. You don't stiffen your body. You roll. You're like, jump, now roll, roll, roll. And my brother and I would be down and rolling across the floor if our relatives came to me.

[36:13]

These poor kids. So, combat was very much a part of my own family tradition, this military mindset to be aware, to be awake, to be ready to drop with fire. And in Zen Monastery in South Korea, in the northern part of South Korea. We were up near the DMZ on a historic mountain called Toksung San, Mount Toksung. Again, I had the honor and the privilege to witness these very ancient traditions I've read about, but they aren't just in books. It actually is all going on in those remote mountain temples. So I'll leave you with this true story from 1988.

[37:19]

In finishing up, this is a true story, 1988, I was in this period of like Dharma bomb practicing in many places. And so when I was in Korea, I did the traditional three month winter silent winter retreat. called the snows retreat. Then they have three months, the rains retreat. In the summer, interspersed with three months spring, three months fall, which is Hei Jai, which is called loose dharma. Gyoche is type dharma. During loose dharma, you can go to the dentist, travel around if you are able to do so, and you can just do more business. During the type dharma, the only way you're supposed to leave the meditation hall is feet first. So it is very tight. Right before I came back, I was with another American Zen monk who had trained a lot longer than I had.

[38:26]

And we heard about, he was called a Korean Zen master who lived on a mountain. more in the of South Korea and who spoke English. And so we thought, well, we should check that out before coming back to the United States. I think his name was Cho Eun Lee Sinon. That was all we knew about him, that he did speak English. So we went and then he was a Zen Master Zen Practitioner. So we went and we got to the mountain rather late in the day, and we told the people there, there was a temple at the foot of the mountain, we would like to have an audience, and they said, okay, tomorrow morning someone will get you, and you can spend the night here, which was very nice, and they've got us very big on hospitality.

[39:32]

So, And that temple was kind of deserted, actually. It was still open, but there weren't too many people there. So we stayed there. And then in the morning, a Korean monk came down and said, follow me. And we climbed the mountain. And this was in the summer. It had just rained. It was hot. It was humid. And the path was entirely mud and very steep. So just getting to the top of the mountain was not some easy thing. And you know, you're in robes and everything, so we were just slipping and sliding, just trying to cling on. And finally got to the top, gorgeous. I couldn't even see any cities or buildings from the top of that mountain. It was mountains, mountains, mountains, mountains.

[40:34]

The Koreans, I believe, call their country the land of the morning calm. Just gorgeous, breathtaking, and there was this picturesque little hermitage temple, but there were temple, a little tiny temple at the top. There were some lay people there cooking, and I guess a few other monks, there was a little compound just at the top of this mountain. They loved that mountain top thing. Good places for practice. So we were shown into a little room and said, wait here, and the master will be in. So we sat there for a while, and then the sliding door opened. Sinim, which means monk, came in. And it was obvious. This was not, hey, how are you doing, so on and so forth. Seats himself formally, it's like in the Dokusan, you know, which is very close.

[41:36]

I really don't like that. You know, like you're so close. You have a stick. But I'm kind of used to it. So he sat himself very close and it was obvious. He came in just basically like a roaming Korean tiger. And I thought, oh shit. So he comes in and then he addresses the monk who is older than me. and in monk years. And he says, he says, do you have a question for me? So this was obviously not going to be the question like, oh, how long have you lived out here? This was the same thing. He said, do you have a question for me? And the monk says, I couldn't believe this, but this is true, he said, Show me your Dharma. I'm kind of rolling my eyes, however, but, you know, okay.

[42:41]

Very confrontational, you get the idea. And Cho Aung, the Zen master, immediately says, with a lot of very aggressive eye contact, says, have you seen your own mind? Which, of course, probably means our Baby, are you enlightened? So, to his credit, the American monk said, no. No. So the Zen master said, well, if you have not seen your own mind, then how can you see me? So then, sure enough, it's my turn. And I'm really frightened too, because I'm on the top of this mountain. And I thought, what if he's actually a pathological person and throws me down the mountain? No one will ever know what's happened to me.

[43:43]

I'll never get home to the United States. Uh-oh. So he turns to me, and so he says, and he says, and you, do you have a question? And really at that moment, I was so... I was so exhausted. They hadn't even given us a cup of tea or anything like that. And I was dehydrated, you know, and I just, I had it. I had just had it. I just had it. And so I just looked him right in the eye. And so he had said, you know, have you seen your own mic? Then how can you see me? So I just looked him right in the eye and I said, Well, if I cannot see you, then who is it that sits before me? And there was a silence. And then he smiled. He said, oh, he said, he said, because I was in nuns rooms at times.

[44:51]

He said, is gentle and wise. And if you want to stay here, I will feed you and give you robes and whatever you need to practice as long as you want. And he turned to the monk and he said, and you as well are welcome. Welcome. I'll finish with that. And to just say, keep it real. Stay liquid and keep it real. That's what I hope our Zen practice gives us. We have everything we need in this moment together. So let us go forth. Thank you so much. And there is time for some Q&A. including those of you on the Zoom, thank you so much.

[45:58]

You can hand if you're on camera or virtual hand on the Zoom feature. There's a handheld mic in the room, wonderful for access for those with who are hard of hearing and for all of us. So did you stay? Did you stay at the monastery? No. I really wanted to get home. However, really nice offer, don't you think? Yes. Offer to support us in our practice. Yes, I see a hand up.

[47:06]

Thank you. I'm very touched by your talk. And by your question, which is my question, what can I do? I'm very concerned about the people who are starving and against whom terrible violence is happening in the world. And I'm asking that all the time, what can I do? You asked it, how do we answer it? How do we answer? Call on the question, what can I do? That's what I'm hearing you say. You know, my response to that is, first of all, to extend some loving kindness. And for each of us, if we take up this question to remind ourselves, we're not the saviors of the world.

[48:07]

At least I'm not. There are limitations. And terrible things are, as a mother, I'm speaking as a mother, children really horribly. people of any age, any conditions. So first of all, that humility, I am not going to save. I can't save everyone. I can't save everyone. And then after that, however, there are things I can do. And I'm going to sit down and really just take a good look at my budget, my energy. what it is that's going to be sustainable. I love that word sustainable in the activist world. Those two words, capacity, and how can we remain sustainable? And then how much can I give? And when I give, will I give wisely?

[49:09]

I do give, I'm a recurring donor at a very low level since I'm a low income person. However, I've been a recurring donor for some years, for instance, sense on frontiers, Doctors Without Borders, because they are nonpartisan and they do publish how they use their funds and how much they spend on overhead. That would be one very small example of what I can do. And then at the end of the day, before I go to sleep, knowing maybe I won't wake up again, like my dad, that I do a little review and I said, have I done everything that I have the power to do now? And I rest in that. Take whatever time you need to figure out because it's hard.

[50:10]

It's hard to know what to choose. I see a hand back there. Thank you so much for the talk. Could you talk directly into the mic? Yes, thank you so much for the talk. Since two years ago, I'm an Iranian and I was so worried, conflicted by leaving this country with the situation that is happening. A few months ago, I lost my job and I refused to go back to work. and I think the ward situation has gotten so out of hand I really felt sick and meeting here is my way of helping myself to deal with the situation and somehow I find peace in myself because dealing with the situation is very hard

[51:19]

But what's interesting for me to hear that Buddhism, zazen, is not available for ignoring the word outside. And the response that you just had to discuss changes. And earlier, you pointed that situation both strategically. being realistic and keeping it real, I think those are all the things that I really needed to hear. So I just wanna thank you for that. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for your practice. Take care of your good heart and yourself first. And I'm totally, I think I heard you say Iranian, correct? Correct. Yeah, I shared a student unit in graduate school in Iowa City. And my apartment mate was an Iranian med tech.

[52:24]

It was a time that the hostages were taken. And so it was a very, very stressful time for her. And ever since then, I've felt close to the situation and the people. So please. I'm aware of the time. There is a hand. Do we have time? One more? Okay. Thank you so much for your talk this morning. I particularly appreciated you ending with this sort of encouragement to keep it real. Sometimes that's a little bit of a koan for me. If what's really real for me is unpleasant, a bad mood, anger, rage, disappointment in institutions, people around me. It kind of ruins the vibe. It does.

[53:27]

And I'm curious to hold that, keep it real with how to temper that. Because it's really my experience, but it doesn't always feel appropriate. Sussing that out is challenging for me. You are not alone. First of all, let's say that. In fact, I just gave a talk online recently for some group called the White Heron Sangha near San Luis Obispo. And I asked the person, what does the Sangha want to hear about? And my contact said, a lot of disappointment, anger, rage, fear, and anxiety. So the title of that talk was Disappointed, which as some of you may or may not know, that's my favorite movie from the award-winning movie from some years ago, A Fish Called Wanda. There's a clip on YouTube go-take of Jamie Lee Curtis and Kevin Kline.

[54:31]

Oh my gosh, just incredible. And so the scene is Kevin Kline, he's none too bright, and Jamie, into a safe and so Kellen Klein manages to open the safe and there's nothing inside and he immediately shouts disappointed and then I think he like jumps up on something and then he kicks something and just in a complete rage and Jamie Lee Curtis who had planned to actually bop him over the head and take all the money herself said well You know, that's just not useful. There's something to that effect. So, if you want to try one's self, then go Kevin Kline. That would be my advice. Don't be like, oh, I can't say anything. No, I did. I did. Jump around. Don't destroy things. You know, keep your feeling a little bit.

[55:33]

Get it out. Get it out. If we are with other people or we are going to affect opinions or whatever neighbors uh take that into account um however you you are hearing me i my background is in the arts i have a master of fine arts and so be creative in your expression repression no good no good no good because it's going to come out then of aggression or nasty, creepy ways towards people that we love and care about. I'm seeing Robbie's nodding in. Yeah, so we don't want to go there. So give yourself some room to expand, to express, and to really claim what is positive. Positive in that disappointment is often frustration that there isn't more kindness. that there isn't more preservation of life, that there isn't more wisdom in working towards cleaning up our environment, and honor that in your space.

[56:41]

Express it, and then the question becomes, what is my next action as I come into contact with others? To also allow them space to be themselves, to express things appropriately And in some, I'll grow larger. I see a hand up here. Is this okay? Okay, last one. I'm looking at you people on the Zoom, but I'm not saying anything. Hi, Ushu. Here's a question that arose while I was enjoying your talk. Yeah, I have a friend who's a Zen student and also practices Judaism, and it's not anybody in Berkeley Zen Center in case you're wondering. And I went with her to a very liberal Berkeley Zen Center and talking to her a lot about Gaza and her feelings about that.

[57:49]

And she sent me a sermon her very liberal, very cool dancing rabbi had made on Gaza. She said, this was moving. I hope that you, or she was, she hoped, seeing what good effort he was making. But I was very, very put off by it. Because every other sentence, he was saying, now I'm really worried about some of you are thinking about this. And I know this is very hard for you to hear. And I know we have to think about him. And he just went on like that. She told me when I objected to her that he was making a big effort to create spiritual community, and he didn't want to leave anyone out, and he didn't want to say anything that would make anyone feel rejected. And meanwhile, everybody's getting killed. Damn, they start. You know, like, what's the point of building spiritual community like that? What do you think?

[58:51]

Thank you. This is a very vital question of our time. It is hot. I mean, this is hot in my world, which activists and of course you're in my world as well. So what I hear you saying is how do we balance or how do we create spiritual community spaces which are both inclusive as well as principled? Is that a good way of... Pretty good. Use a more passionate word for principle. But anyway. What would you propose? Whose hearts are open to the suffering of the world and who act on that. Who is a spiritual space that is inclusive and a community are open to the violence, pain and suffering in the world and who are acting on it. That, I would say, is one of the major questions that I am seeing.

[59:54]

And for that, I would say we can again look to our lore and to bodhisattva never despise. Bodhisattva never despise. There is a way, we hope, there is a path, there is a way to be able to disagree very, very strongly according to our values and our perspectives with people on what the paths of action and the stances that our spiritual community should take according to our own views, perhaps even to the majority of the peoples. There is a lot between saying we passionately believe in this and why on one hand, and then there's a line that crosses over into belittling, into demeaning, and into dismissing points of view that are other than our own experiences and background that are other than our own.

[61:04]

Now, that can be experienced somewhat subjectively. However, I think that it is a function of why speech or right speech as part of the Eightfold Path, that we look at the speech, our body language, the tone of our voice, and the way we're acting, interacting with people and ask ourselves, if I'm being honest to myself, even a little bit, do I despise this other person? Do I think that they're stupid? Do I think that they're not as worthy as those of us who are of my point of view? That is my own practice. It is my own practice. This is an open question. Some people might say no. If we want to uphold, if we want to uphold the values of

[62:10]

as much as we can of universal dignity and respect for all with whom we come. Thank you so much.

[62:27]

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