Please put your mask on. Sue Ogier, our speaker today.

[05:03]

Sue Ogier joined BCC in 1990 and received lay ordination in 1995 from Sojiroshi, who gave her the Dharma name Jumyo Seishin, bright pearl. She has served as head cheatin, co-zendo manager, and Saturday director. Sue continues to offer orioki or eating bowl instruction. oversees our Zazen instruction and has served on the board. Sue had a preschool in her home and was married to the incomparable Gordon Osher for many years until his death in 2019. Thank you for speaking to us today, Sue. Thank you for asking, and I want to say thank you all for being here. really welcome the new folks. If this is your first time, come back and see us sometime.

[06:07]

I was reminded last night as I was not going through my talk one more time, I remembered a skit night that we had during Practice Spirit many years ago and Deborah Good did a stand-up comedy routine. which I truly wish she was doing here now. And she had a stack of recipe cards, no cards, and they were jokes. And she stood up there and she read the first joke and we laughed and then she went through the second joke and said no and threw the paper on the floor. The next paper and she read the next joke and we laughed. It was funny actually. But also just watching her throw the cards on the floor. ...finish with them, either reading them or not. And I thought, please forgive me, but I think I came in with 15 pages of stuff here, and we'll see what gets on the floor, you know?

[07:13]

Am I supposed to do anything else besides start talking? I forget. Is that better? Speak from the diaphragm, folks. This is my first Saturday talk. I was head student last year, so I did give some talks. Last year, Hosan gave me one of Yun Min's koans from the Blue Cliff Record, number 86, I think. And the first few lines of the case, Yun Min imparted some words saying, When you look at it, you don't see it, and it's dark and dim. What is everybody's light? He himself answered on their behalf, the kitchen pantry and the main gate.

[08:16]

He also said, a good thing isn't as good as nothing. Sometimes these koans crack you open. Sometimes they're an annoying distraction. The gate, when you entered here and you close it, as Ross said last Saturday, you turn around and you close the gate and then you open it. But sometimes it opens and closes on its own. Tension broadens and narrows and broadens. Do we include everything? I'm going to refer to a number of things that may seem non sequitur, and they probably are, so please forgive me. But to continue. This year during and after practice period, two threads of my life emerged, and I can't help talking about them with you today.

[09:28]

My thoughts became, or it was more than my thoughts, something became focused on trees and politics. Something became focused on trees and politics. So there are two threads, and they may merge and they may not. And I'm, of course, I get annoyed on other people. I'm only speaking from my own experience, and it's not that you need to do anything with this. I spoke with Ron Nestor, one of our green Roccasue wonderful teachers who's at the convalescent hospital up the street. I saw him too. He just dropped in, and it was wonderful to be with him. And I said, so I'm talking about Theresa politics. He said, what? And then he said, and he just instantly went, he said, well, my thought, he said, he said, I thought, he commented, that trees need light, air, water, and soil.

[10:54]

And he said that we do too. And he said that he objected to ego-centered actions of politicians, and that in a democracy, our representatives are supposed to act in our best interest, the best interest of their constituents, which I go along with. And I might refer back to this later. I'll start with the tree stories. Gordon, my husband, He used to stop on trails, especially when the low winter sun was shining through the leaves of a tree. And he would bring my attention. Or he would just comment. He wasn't trying to bring my attention to anything. He just said, look at the light. And that, you know, that light, that everyone has a light, we have the light of the trees, you know, to the beauty. As Gordon aged and he was no longer able to or interested in going hiking on Mount Tamalpais, more pleasure in the two big pines of our house, one in the front yard, one down in the back.

[12:05]

Excuse me. Thank you for the cup with the handle, too. water for the tree. He admired the front pine by the street. He'd sit on the deck. Birds came to the feeder near his chair. Turkeys, squirrels, foxes, deer came down the driveway. He seemed so content and at rest in his deck chair. Neighbors with their kids and dogs would come by and chat and sometimes sit with him. Talk about books. or whatever he was interested in. There was a man who could do non sequiturs really well. As Gordon sat in the reclining armchair in our living room and gazed out the windows at the back pine, which is down a pretty steep yarn.

[13:12]

After Gordon died, I became aware that the back pine tree, the big pine tree, was swaying. in the windstorms, in our larger windstorms. And so 30 feet of the top of it got cut off, which has a mixed conversation for people who value trees and plants. And it exposed parallel, pretty parallel trumps now with flat tops. And it hosts roosting ravens, sometimes owls, red-sheltered hawks, acorn woodpeckers, western scrub jays, and the birds, it's like they're on those flat tops. They can see large distances. And it's just a busy, wonderful neighborhood of animals. The ravens are really loud and get to a ruckus with other birds.

[14:17]

And they also put the deck cushions. Not on my yard, not on my decks, because I've warned not to leave them out. But I find the stuffing in our backyard, and lately they have a new game with garbage that they can get into, and that goes into the backyard. And then recently, not in my backyard, but a neighbor left out. I get the rules left. There was a styrofoam sheet, big block of styrofoam by the street, a couple doors down, and they decided that was a tool, and it seems to be a messy experience. So I'm just noting the busiest on my street, and then we must include the nervous neighbors below the very large tree on the street below. Last year, Arborist Molly checked the health of the pine, the big pine in the back, because my neighbors had commented one day.

[15:21]

And she was the one who was terrified, and she joined in that meeting. And we learned that healthy trees, trees provide oxygen. They stabilize the soil. And this tree was healthy, but it needed to be washed. and they installed two screws about a foot and a half above each other on the bark on the uphill side of the trunk. And I borrow another neighbor's digital level every month and I go and I turn it on and I put the digital level up against the screws. The angle. So, you know, if it were perfectly straight, it would be 90 degrees. So that's the ideal, the closer to 90 you get. 86 and a half around there varies. So it's good. I feel like I'm being a good steward for that tree.

[16:23]

And the tree's been there longer than 53 years, than my 53-year-old house. And as you can hear, I love the trees. A few years ago, I noticed some red powder at the base of the street side tree, the front tree, which is about 50 years old. Arborist Molly said, she came out, it's been like a year later, she came out and looked at that. She said it's bark, some sort of bark beetle disease. And she said, I don't do pesticides, but call a company like Davey that does Davey Tree. So this past week, Davey Tree came out. and they sprayed, you know, five foot around the base of the trunk. But because we agreed and the bees were out and the wind, he had to tarp.

[17:29]

I mildly insisted and he did tarp the bush and the spray would not be windborne. It would be closely managed. And so he tarred the tree, and yes, he got stung. But that's how it worked. So I thanked him and I gave him a glass of water. And we did the best we could. Now in the fall, both pines will get shots. Did you know trees could get shots? It goes into cambium later. and we'll have to water them well for a while, and then it'll prevent more infestation of the infested tree, and it'll stop, it'll prevent more infestation in the back tree, and for a very large amount of money every two years, I'll get to do that. So, the trees will die someday, and we all will die someday.

[18:34]

I'll be 81 in a week or so. They'll all die, but I hope the trees will last that long or longer. And we do what we can to keep ourselves happy and alive. Sojin used to talk about composting the garden and how important it is. There are many people in this room who are very good gardeners and they love it. I am an inconsistent gardener, and I hire people to clear the leaves. They over-cleared, and now one of my oak trees is stressed. So in the next year, I will learn, I will hire someone who knows how to create better soil for the trees. They've been having, you know, like, bare, hard dirt, which you don't do to a person, a tree person.

[19:37]

Okay, I covered part one. Maybe you can tell me when it's about 10 minutes, so people might want to make comments and questions or not. Part two. Let's see how I do on this. After practice period, I noticed how much energy I put into avoiding the difficult emotions around politics. and news. I had to stop listening to it. I listened to some, I couldn't bear the agony of hearing about Gaza. I don't think this is in Ukraine as if I would know what's right to do.

[20:47]

I don't have any idea. And this discomfort, this pain is obviously not just my problem. Other people think, how do we deal with this in a personal, this person way so that because avoiding, my therapist said, avoidance is not healthy and I found that after practice period I could look at that a little more closely. The emotional thought, opinion, reaction part of it. I did listen to parts. I tried to listen to parts of the debate which was painful and I couldn't do much with it. I get two or three times a day I get chat messages from Trump's campaign, which I mostly don't open and block and delete.

[21:51]

I'm sure that all of the parties and people running for office do that, send out masks. They have a number. I don't know how they got mine. So I'm blocking a lot of numbers, and I just sort of wonder, this is a distraction, but I do wonder if we'll run out of phone numbers, you know, because I think everybody might be blocking. So anyway, in a recent message, I will say that Trump said that Bayou wet his ass. And I thought about that, you know, when I hear people make those comments, sort of, I always think it's a little too venial. And I've learned that, you know, it's like on that person, not on the person they're attacking. And I have that going in a bipartisan passion. Friday, I was in a water fitness class. I don't know how other people handle it, but I just thought it might be helpful.

[22:54]

The point is not to upset people, just to look into it. Gently, I drifted over to what turned out to be a political conversation at the far end of the dining aisle where we hold the class. And then I drifted back so I could hear the teacher. Stayed away from it. It's very interesting, you know, it's in rolling and in flow. It really hooks you to hear people talk about it. But I did hear the fear and anger in their voices too. So how do we work with this? So I think balance and boundaries, it's just something that we work with. I'm not asking or accepting expecting fixes or heated opinions or arguments. I used to like to argue, except when I married Gordon, I wasn't very good at it. I mean, he was good. And I gave up.

[23:56]

And fortunately, you know, we have another in our precept practice to arguing. And again, I'll say that, you know, Ron Nestor said, He doesn't like ego-centered politicians. But I will say this, having been involved on federal anti-poverty legislation for a little bit longer than I've been as a student, I've met impressive staff and members of Congress on both sides who do want to do the best for their constituents. spend my time complaining about what they don't do. You know, it's like, how do we go into what's working, support that. You recently saw a course, for those who are suffering and might be interested, online.

[24:57]

His name is Soren Gold, Goldhammer, something like that. Can we heal politics? I thought, well, that's a good idea. Somebody might want to watch that. And then I have this, if I still have the paper, I apologize. These are going on. Here it is. I thought this was helpful. You know, I'm just jumping here to things that I found helpful and encourage people to look for things that might provide them with some next steps. This is from which is an Israeli-American organization. It's also in Israel. And they had an event to revive the peace movement in Israel. And I won't read much of it. It was maybe last Monday or in Tel Aviv.

[26:01]

There were no speeches by professional NGO, that's non-governmental observers. directors nor were there long policy prescriptions. There were few specific references even to the current government controversies about anyway. It was mostly ordinary people with a personal stake in Israel's dreadful presence who spoke with sorrow but hope about the future. And at the end they closed with a segment with a prayer, blessed be he who and bypasses revenge. Blessed be he who redeems and bypasses revenge. Is this working okay? Yeah. It gave me, I don't know how you feel, but take a breath. And then in my anti-poverty grassroots lobbying hat,

[27:10]

This is a blurb. I was in a meeting with a number of people from and the allied organization called Together Women Rise, which used to be Dining for Women. And we were with the staffers to Senator Lafonza Butler on Zoom. It was last week, too busy week. And I was a... with another young friend of mine and results. We did not have speaking parts. But I was very impressed with the legislative director and the other staffers. And we actually were making specific requests about global vaccination. There is now a new malaria vaccine. And that's really encouraging. And millions and millions and millions of lives have been saved by some vaccines, and so GAVI is the term, the budget term, U.S.

[28:20]

Agency for International Development Budget. And it's really interesting to be, to learn to do that kind of citizen action where you follow legislation and follow up with members of Congress. Not for everybody, but it's sort of a long view humanitarian, foreign aid, on some domestic issues, but what the staffer said, he said, you know, before I came, he was in Feinstein's office, he said, before I came onto the Hill, I was in the Air Force for many years, and it became very clear, and I've heard other people on Republican legislative staff say this, were really clear that the programs that support health care, education, access to credit, farm infrastructure, certain policies save lives and prevent more.

[29:23]

And that makes sense to me. It's just sort of obvious, it's why I got into results. And I asked many years ago, one staffer in another office, in the house, and I said, so what do you think people do? You know, what's that look like? And he said, no guns. And I thought, you know, we've come a long way since then with the Sustainable Development Goals, which is a UN focus, you know, leading basic human needs, sustainable environmental guidelines that are followed. I mean, there's still It's not new. We've known this for many years, but it's like we come newly to this. This is really exciting. This is where my preset practice can go. I also want to say that on the malaria thing, two of the women from Together Women Rise, one had been in the Foreign Service, one had been in the Peace Corps, and they both had malaria.

[30:33]

So they were really interested in having malaria. The budget upped and it's sort of too much in the weeds for people, but that's okay. We're looking for, I find, it comes down to the person-to-person connection, not for the great leader or the wise one who will make us better or make it better, happy. I don't think that's how politics works. If any of you have ever been disappointed by a politician, you have to find another way. And it's watering branches of roots, you know, and growing your trees, and it's digging and making your mulch. I also don't think it's off topic, and I hope that those who have a more linear kind of thinking will not be too put off by this. According to Save San Francisco Bay, we can vote for a $10 billion Bay Area climate, well, statewide climate resilience bond.

[31:45]

And it seems a good thing. I would appreciate forensic accountants who look into all that and give correct information and help me understand budgets. But that's true personally to how I spend money. I think it's important to be encouraged, you know, with beneficial action. I think it's an antidote. And then I'm going to jump around a little bit here, but I remember Sojin, in his last public doko, said, don't forget to vote. He didn't say who to vote for. He said, don't forget to vote. And I was really glad I remembered it because I was talking to my granddaughter yesterday, the other two days ago, and I said, don't forget to vote. And she, you know, it was like she nodded whether she will or not, I don't know. I know that it helps to see the difference of things when you talk to immigrants about why vote.

[32:51]

See, I went through this before I came in. I lost off a bunch of stuff. I like this from Carol Christ, the outgoing chancellor at UC Berkeley. She said, I watched Walter Cronkite every evening in graduate school, who closed the show with, that's the way it is. Somebody here will have a better reproduction of that, because he did it in a special way. And so, Carol Chris said, as I retired this week, I am struck by how polarized we are as a campus and society, how there's no sense of a shared reality. My goal is to seek a return to civil conversation, even with people whose opinions or lives differ from yours. Hold honesty, care, love, and respect close. and start each new endeavor with the ambition and passion, and she was referring to the graduates, our students who believe they can change the world, because that's the way it must be.

[34:04]

You can choose to believe, you can have a tendency to believe, maybe a personality tendency to believe different things, but what's a useful way? This is a bit just, The work of Birch Maycroft is one of the quotes. I won't read because it's too much. Bridging the partisan divide, how to lobby people who don't agree with you. This actually would be a conversation with someone, but there's some understanding of the worldview, different worldview people have, and the tendencies of you know, how progressive, what progressive's worldview is, and conservative's worldview. Care, harm, foundation is one.

[35:06]

It makes us sensitive to signs of suffering and need. It makes us despise cruelty and want to care for those who are suffering. Which is like, yeah, we really think that. I mean, I could... But then... I had to learn to really appreciate the other worldviews. One is liberty oppression. Makes people notice and resent any sign of attempted domination. It triggers an urge to band together to resist and overthrow bullies and tyrants. Even in our own community, it's clear that's where they're coming from. Fairness and cheating is another foundation. makes us sensitive to indications that another person is likely to be good or bad partner for collaboration and reciprocal altruism. So like freeloaders, you know, like you do your share, do your part. I don't want to be taken advantage of.

[36:08]

I certainly resonate with that. Sanctity and degradation. It makes it possible for people to invest objects, places, dharmas with irrational and extreme values, both positive and negative, which are important for binding people together. You eat that, yuck, you're on the outward, you know, that kind of thing. Authority and subversion makes us sensitive to signs that other people are or are not behaving properly, given their position. And then there's the loyalty betrayal thing. And you know, this is really important for some of us. Other people, not so much. We want to trust and reward those who are loyal. And if you're not, if we don't think you are, you're out. Want to hurt, ostracize, even kill those who betray our group.

[37:11]

Does that sound familiar? A little bit? Anyway. So to hang on for the drink of water. So just following the precepts leads to happiness. Holding, so I would say, holding political or news or social media at a distance can help me. How do I delve into that? I balance it with an appropriate amount of attention. Your gate can open and close. You can have wide view, you can have mirror view. Is this healthy for me? Is this part of the precepts? It's like your own decision on it.

[38:16]

What time are we at? Okay. I'm going to share a story or a recent talk with my young Buddhist, Taoist friend, Macy Fung. I talked to her last Sunday. And so her Buddhist practice is, I know it's different, and there's a language translation connection that we're trying to understand each other. And she's a film graduate. She's a little older than my granddaughter. She was at UCLA. They all live in Antioch and her older siblings are off on their own.

[39:24]

She's been making films which have not been produced, which cause probably some suffering for her. She also works in the Asian community health and housing programs in Oakland. Her first film, at least the one that I saw, I guess you call it a draft, I don't know what you call it. It's very much Macy with filmy scarves and dancing and Buddhas and flowers and peace, love and happiness. That's what she is about. Her latest effort in film is to tell her parents who are Vietnamese Chinese immigrants to tell their story. They came here to make a living kids and getting a good education. She says, people tell her that she's naive.

[40:27]

I think she probably is. But she also said that something about, and we frame it in my experience in SotoZoom, taking a backward step from trying to get things accomplished, you know, there's great disappointment when you're really working your butt off towards a goal. And when it doesn't happen, that's always the learning experience. Some of us come to it later, some earlier. So where do we go? How do we turn? What's our intention? We can't make things happen. So she became, you know, she started working to make a living and social justice healthier. She also teaches Sunday school at her temple. She teaches the kids to be good so they can meet the Buddha and be happy, which is a little different than our Buddhist practice.

[41:38]

But because I spoke with her, And I'm not sure that we actually understood each other. But I had an opening. It makes me cry. Very precious about sharing the Dharma. It was something about acceptance in the bodhisattva way. And maybe it was something about coming out of six weeks of practice period. So, coming back to Yudmin's Gate, the temple gate swings wide open and closes, and we swing it open and we close it. There are trees, there are life-saving programs, also corruption, and we come here in our perspective, kind of open and close.

[42:48]

I guess I will close this with my newsletter, the most recent newsletter. Those of you might find it online. I like the hard copy. They don't do so well as... No Gaining Idea. This is what Hosan Roshi wrote, and it was in 2022, maybe. It was reprinted. in the most recent newsletter. Suzuki Roshi often said we shouldn't have a gaining idea of attainment. A student once asked him why anybody would do zazen if they didn't have a gaining idea, and he said, you still have one gaining idea, and what is that? That's a secret. The three doors... Anyway, this is wonderful. I would just say, But I guess what Rondi used to say, she'd always comment, no merit, you know, doing good and no merit, no gaining idea.

[44:11]

And that's how we hold it, you know. We do our best. And we can have a hell of a good time doing it. It's wonderful people. So, I'll close. If we have a question, please raise your hand. And if you're online, just raise your digital hand. Thank you, Sue. I would comment you through to us about how to tie together trees and And I want to run something by you, is it possible? Yeah. Okay. I was struck by the sentence that you gave us that included the sentence, sorrow and hope.

[45:22]

And the reason of that, I'm imagining the reason that meant something to me because I've been struggling with despair. about the situation around. Despair, yeah. Despair. And then later, two other phrases came to me that feel like the underpinnings are the underlayment that holds sorrow and hope in the same sentence. And is that all beings, trees and all of us meet our basic needs met. that there is a baseline that has to be met in order to even imagine to be able to do Zazen or study that there are prerequisites for all of us and trees included. And then the other phrase was sustainability and that that's a word that could be applied to practice.

[46:32]

What are sustainable practices? sustainable practices, but also for our psyches, our sustainable practice that holds sorrow and hope. So that's my first job. Thank you. I think there's a beautiful interweaving of the threads. Thank you. I was also thinking when you began speaking about the connection between politics and the one that occurred to me then and that I heard a little bit throughout those stories is time. The effect that we see now, the tree that we see now in the world is the result of things that happened 50 years ago and over the course of the last 50 years and maybe one of the hardest things about doing the right thing for the political system is being that patient and not

[47:43]

being sure if it's the right thing as it unfolds over the next 50 years or however long. I think that's something to be thinking about from this. Thank you. Tell me your name, please. I'm Finn. Finn. Thank you, Finn. Having been in the field for so long, even as an outskirts of volunteerism, you see the benefit of basic human needs, you know, health care, education, that just so many lives. And when you start to meet the people who are ambassadors of the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, TB, and Malaria, or the people who've benefited because they had an increased tax credit and were part of that vast group of people in this country who

[48:44]

child poverty was cut in half. You know, you see those, you trust those programs. Not that they don't have to be analyzed and accountable, and I'm a very big fan of fiscal responsibility, but there are things that are working, and they're profound, and you can't stop. You know, it's an eternal effort. It's like continuous practice. whether you're in here or outside the gate. Yeah, thank you for what you said. Hi Sue.

[49:47]

Thank you, Peter. Thank you for your talk. Earlier in the talk I heard you say the question is whether or not you're letting too much in or you're being too narrow out of letting nothing. And letting too much in could be overwhelming as also being too narrow could be like an underwhelming. restricted in a certain way. Where do you look for clues that you have erred on the side of being too welcoming or erred on the side of being too narrow? You know, Smojan used to talk about how you ask him, you know, am I practicing too much or, you know, How do you know the balance?

[50:48]

Probably by making mistakes. But then, you know, I was thinking of, some of you may have seen Hax's little cartoon about worrying. These cute little cartoons he had made years past. Because he was worrying and he turned his face into it. And he said, and hug your worry, you know, just comfort your worry. And I think one thing about sitting here and talking to other people is you can say, you can see the next step on that. Like there's not a right answer, is there? A fix, but there are things that we can do that we test it out. You have to look, see for yourself, I think. Does that meet some of your questions? Thank you.

[51:53]

Yeah, well, yeah, laughing at them. Thank you. Thank you, Sue. You're welcome. You mentioned more than once practice helped you or connected you to your concerns for both trees and politics. And I was wondering if you could give an example of a particular precept that helps you with no merit idea as you work with trees and politics. Thank you for your question. Right now, the thing that's been coming up forever, I think, for a long time, is live for the benefit of all beings, whatever. That's general.

[52:58]

Kind speech was another one. Having raised teenagers, you know the value of duct tape across your mouth. So not saying it sometimes, and practicing what you do not agree with. Sometimes the silence connects you, so connection. And if you tell me what precepts you find to be useful in all your actions. Oh, maybe later, you know. I just really wanted to hear you say more about . It's easy to work in politics and get caught by no merit and no gaining idea. Well, I think it's harder to work with no gaining idea because you do want to accomplish something. The commitments can be a training ground to keep going and to see another way.

[54:05]

There's always another way. There's always a gate that opens. Yeah, that's good. Continuous practice. Thank you. Can you see online? Can you see from there soon? Oh, I got a heart. I don't see a hand, but then my ability to see little squares. More hearts, thank you. I'll take it. You have no hands. I have no hands. Yes. A thousand hands, no hands. It all works. Yeah, everybody. Hi, everybody. Yeah. I forgot to say hi to all those people. Isn't that... I can't read it. Oh, God. Libby's cracking up.

[55:07]

That's good. Okay. I know it's good when Libby cracks up. Okay. What time are we at? Can we end soon? Beings are numberless. I vow to awaken with them. Delusions are exhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma. unsurpassable, I vow to become it. Beings are numerous, I vow to end them. Delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to end them.

[56:08]

Interpassable. Zen Center.

[57:55]

Special welcome to anyone who's here for the first time. If you have any questions about practice here at BCC, please speak with today's Zazen instructor, Gary Arno. Raising his hand. A few announcements for the week. Tomorrow, BCC will host a half-day sitting, that's from 8 a.m. to 12 noon. You can talk to Gary or visit the website to register. On Monday morning, Jeremiah Holland will give away Seeking Mind talk at 8 a.m. and that can be tuned in on Zoom. Next Saturday, Lori Sanaki will deliver the Dharma talk. And in a couple of weeks, on July 21st, BCC will host a Zazen Kai from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. You can contact Karen Sondheim to register. And some recurring announcements, BCC students and members are strongly encouraged to meet and develop a relationship with a teacher or a practice leader. Abbott Hoson, other teachers and senior students are available for a normal docusano practice discussion.

[59:01]

Please visit the BCC's website teachers tab for contacts for information about practice interviews. There's also a signup sheet right outside the Zendo porch that you can take a look at as well to sign up to meet with a teacher. Today the library will be open for browsing from 11.30 until noon and Maria Teresa is available if you have any questions. And if you have any, if you want any more information about our programs or membership or to make a donation to BZC, please check out the bulletin board. There's a donation box out there or check out the website and there's a generosity tab that you can make an online donation. Also, if I get two volunteers to help who have time to help clean up and wash the teacups after we have informal tea. I get two volunteers. I have one and two. Thank you. And those in the Zendo, as we're leaving, please maintain silence until you're off the Zendo steps and then feel free to socialize with one another and enjoy the tea and cookies.

[60:08]

And those of you who are online, please feel free to unmute and greet one another. Thank you. Hi. Thank you, Sue. Good morning. to see you all. Take care. Have a good week. Thank you. Bye-bye. Good to see you.

[60:30]

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