and surpass penetrating and perfect dharma is rarely met with even in a hundred thousand million kalpas having it to see and listen to to remember and accept I allow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words Hello everyone in all time zones. It's been a great pleasure to introduce our speaker today, Carol Paul. Carol was lay ordained by Darlene Cohen in 2001, and in the following year, she entered BCC's game in the fall of 2002. Over the years, she has held a variety of practice positions at BCC, including Ed Cheaton, Saturday director, sasheen director, head server, co-Zendo manager, and currently she is the coordinator.

[01:06]

She spent two practice periods at Tassajara in 2009 and again in 2011. While in the workforce, Carol primarily worked in human resources in various positions in the Bay Area. In September 2017, She received priest coordination by Sojin Mel Weitzman and Shiken Seigetsu, intention clear, serene moon, and served as Shuso in 2019 in the springtime. Welcome, Carol. Thank you, and good morning, everyone. Good morning. Nice to have a little rain, isn't it? So today I'm going to talk about reconciliation. How is that? Not much better.

[02:12]

All right. That's good. I'm not talking about reconciliation. I'm talking about renunciation. And so you're probably feeling like a little character called Hager the Horrible. And Hager, you know, he's climbing up this very steep mountain. It takes him quite a long time as he labors away. And he sees this very wise-looking sage with a long white beard sitting on the top of the mountain. And Hager says to him, oh, great sage, please teach me the secret of happiness. And the sage says, simplicity, self-restraint, renunciation. And Hager pauses and says, is there anyone else I could speak to up here?

[03:18]

So you might be feeling a little bit about renunciation. Yet again, is there something I'm going to have to change or give up? But this is a very strong teaching of Buddhists that's found in the Pali canon, one of his very first teachings. And in Pali, this word is nakama. And it was one of the ten paramis, what they call the paramis, or the perfections we have, the sixth paramitas. And it's been translated in Pali as not clinging to anything or practicing non-attachment. So this word may bring up a little bit of a religious undertone for you and maybe not so pleasant. You might have that vision of the monks going off into the cave and renouncing the entire world.

[04:21]

like there's some sort of penance that you've got to do. Let me tell you a little bit more about the translation. The English translation is sacrifice. Sacrifice. You have to sacrifice something. And the word sacrifice in Latin means to make sacred. To make sacred. So in the act of renunciation or sacrificing, the person is connecting to what is sacred, what is precious or wonderful. So it's also translated as re, again, and renunciation is an announcement. So again and again, we're announcing our renunciations. We sometimes say, oh, I let go of this or that.

[05:30]

It's finally not bothering. But often, this something just falls away. One day you recognize, oh, that's not bothering me anymore. So in the Buddhist texts, it says, give up the world and lead a holy life. Now this is spelled H-O-L-E-Y, H-O-L-Y. And I like to think of that as holy, W-H-O-L-L-Y, give up the world and live a whole life. And that is what renunciation really allows us to do, live a whole and fulfilling life. So this is the practice of letting go, surrendering, relinquishing. And I first became interested in this word renunciation during my first practice period at Tassahara.

[06:33]

And I was meeting with one of the teachers. And he said, renunciation is the basis, the whole of our practice. That really struck me. It's the whole of our practice. And actually, we're practicing that moment to moment, whether we are a Buddhist or not, because every moment of our life, first with our breath. So we're taking in breath, and then we're letting go. Taking up something and letting it go. So moment by moment, we are practicing renunciation. And we're all familiar with this because we do this during Zazen.

[07:35]

We're watching our breath rise and fall with every breath, breathing in and breathing out. So we might be taking in new thoughts as we breathe in or new sensations, new emotions, new smells. and then we're breathing it out. And we're letting then go, and then it begins again, breath by breath. And ideally, when we end our zazen and enter back into the world, we continue to let go, opening up and letting go. Some of us are going into Rohatsu starting Monday, And Rohatsu is a kind of renunciation. We put aside our preferences.

[08:37]

We eat what is served. We turn off our devices. We sit in an upright position rather than comfortably slouched on the couch. And we follow a precise schedule. So we're putting aside our important roles at work. as a parent, a caretaker, even in our intimate relationships. And then as we renunciate those things, what opens up is a little more time to observe our thoughts, our feelings, our physical sensations. We have to see those things surface again and again. We're taking up something and we're letting go. Renunciation is really not a negative teaching.

[09:43]

We're actually renouncing, closing down and shutting off from life. And from that, we're opening up. We're opening up to the teachings of our life right in front of us. It's a very positive teaching, renunciation. But it may not feel so joyful or happy when we give up things that we love. But it definitely feels more sane and being present. And Buddha said, A wise person gives up a lesser happiness for greater happiness. When you look at all of our teachings, there requires some letting go of old patterns.

[10:46]

Buddha's very first teaching, the Four Noble Truths, well there it is, the very first truth, there is suffering. suffering all around us. And seeing it's from our desires, our attachments, that clinging to things. But as we know, he provides a path to end this. And that's the old eightfold path. So as we look at renunciation, This is not meant to be a practice of austerity or a practice of suffering. But it's really meant to help us establish more equanimity and clarity regarding our thoughts and feelings. And it's a practice, really, that is meant to energize. Energize is when you kind of put down something.

[11:51]

There is more energy. So, of course, this means studying. We have to really study these desires and obsessiveness that we may have in the patterns that are causing discomfort or suffering. And we have to really watch and see, well, what is attracting us? What seduce us? Maybe it's food, some preference that you like, or alcohol, or caffeine. Or watching too much television. Or time surfing on the internet, or playing games on our computer. Continuously reading our emails throughout the day. Or maybe we're moving to like mental habits, like planning.

[12:56]

planning, planning, worrying, fretting, controlling, feelings of anxiety, or compulsions. Notice I have this compulsion. I've got to always be picking up little things off the floor, straightening the rug. We have some feelings, feelings of resentment or jealousy, envy, or fear. insecure and not good enough. But what about our opinions and views, beliefs that we do not want to give up? Or maybe we want that impulse to be right and correct, that need to control. Or maybe working all the time, that drive to accomplish. Or, on the other hand, the impulse to procrastinate.

[13:59]

I can do that tomorrow. Or maybe there's an impulse to fill silence, you know, with words. Just talking too much, just to fill up the space. And not really listening. Or maybe finding fault in political situations. I'm talking about that rather than acting on it. Of course, the big one is giving up our attachment to self, who we think we are. And that is really challenging. So that self, that ego, is always seducing us, isn't it? inviting us for putting out ideas that something would be better. That was Buddha's Mara.

[15:02]

It was tempting him for those seven days, or at least some of that time during the seven days, promising something better, more happiness. So all those things that I just mentioned, do any of those things cause suffering? So they may not. So none of them are necessarily bad. This isn't about bad or good. It's more about our attachments and our compulsions and craving for this. We all have it. So if you find those feelings of attachment to something, There's all those suffering there. Really examine it. In other words, you find suffering, you'll find some clinging.

[16:07]

And I remember Darlie made an example about having that second cup of coffee, and I just couldn't think how that could be wrong. There was craving, I have that myself, that craving to have that second cup. Nothing wrong with it, but maybe it really wasn't what I needed. So can there be pleasure in renunciation? Well, maybe. We're giving up something good or pleasurable for something better. Give all these things up. You certainly want to find some pleasure and joy in this suffering. I come from an alcoholic family, and I always loved my alcohol.

[17:12]

And throughout the years, went through many different phases with alcohol. And I knew I had the propensity for drinking because I could see it in my family. And I would enjoy having, you know, one, two, maybe three glasses of wine. And I had this notion of just, I was just freer. I was less inhibited. I was more fun, more fun to be with. And I, looked so forward to it. I planned it out. That's when the scheming mind would come in, you know, well, let's see if I could have a drink on Friday, because I don't work on Saturday. I could have one on Saturday. Maybe even Sunday. If I drank it early enough, I could have that drink on Sunday, too. I didn't want to be hungover on Monday. So it was this constant scheming within my mind.

[18:16]

It was really quite a lot of suffering there. I didn't recognize it as suffering. I just recognized my mind figuring things out. And of course, I was always saying, oh, I've got to give this up. I've got to give it up. Stop doing me any good. And as I began to practice more and more, I could see that more clearly. This is an obsession here. And, you know, when that battle came on a stop, Friday would come and, oh, well, one drink's not going to hurt. And I wasn't harming anyone, and I wasn't harming myself. So I just did see, maybe, and people would say, oh, you're not really an alcoholic. Yeah, maybe I'm not. So this went on for several years. And then I went to Tosahara for my first practice period.

[19:20]

And while I was down there, they have AA meetings. Well, there again, the mind had to decide, well, am I going to go to that? Well, no, I'm not in alcohol. I didn't have to go to that. But at any rate, I did start going to the meetings. And I took the practice up quite serious. You know, of course, there was no temptation to drink because there's no alcohol. So it was just really a perfect place. to do this practice where I could journal about it. And I did, and asked my things like, made a list of, well, what do I like about drinking? You know, all the things that I loved about drinking. Well, what do I get out of it? This feeling of freedom and being more fun. And what would I lose if I stopped? Gosh, I might lose some friends. And is there really any benefit in giving it up?

[20:21]

So this was a wonderful thing to be able to do in these three months and get more and more clarity and see what I think I was getting and what the price I was paying for. And so luckily when I did come out, I was able to stay sober. And that strong craving had diminished some. It didn't go away, but it was less. And I could remember the things that it was costing me to drink, that craziness, wild, obsessive thoughts. And there was loss, no doubt about it. There was loss. You know, I miss the social aspect. There were some friends, all we didn't just had so much fun. And that feeling of just feeling free and loose. But on the other hand, that craziness was not in my mind and that obsessiveness about that.

[21:34]

And that was so freeing, just so freeing. So in Zen, unlike the Theravadan tradition, which is where the polychaemen was. We don't specifically, that I'm aware of, talk about renunciation. It's not one of the paramedas as stated as renunciation. But it is said, and those of us that were studying aspects may recall this, but one of the paramedas, not paramedas, I'm sorry, one of the eightfold paths is right thinking, right thought. And it's also translated as right intention. And that's tied to renunciation. And so I looked at this renunciation and realized when we

[22:46]

When we clarify our intention, then what we're doing is renewing our vow. And that vow is what drives us continually returning to vow, how we live our life. And so our intention to release this lusting and craving after things or thoughts, ideas, beliefs, whatever it is that causes suffering, destructive and harmful emotions, it's really anything that is holding us back. So we start with vow, renewing our vow.

[23:53]

And we do this during the Bodhisattva ceremony or Moon ceremony. We say, all my ancient tangled karma from beginningless greed, hate, and delusion. Greed, hate, and delusion. and it's born through our body, our speech, and our mind, and I now fully avow. So we're just renewing that vow, recognizing our ancient tangled karma. And then secondly, after taking our vow, over and over again. It's important to acknowledge where we are and things that we'd like to change, things that we like about ourselves.

[25:06]

But before we do that, we really have to accept, accept right where we are and the way things are. and the way we are. So, of course, we want to have compassion and generosity toward ourselves. And then we're ready to make renunciation with whatever it is that you want to renunciate. Suzuki Roshi said, Renunciation is allowing things to pass away, just allowing them to pass away. We recognize how things are always changing and passing away, and we're just allowing it to go. And renunciation really helps us with the bigger losses when we're able to

[26:17]

And this, of course, is really important as we get older and older. We recognize everything is changing. Our capacities, things that we can do, we're losing. Losing friends, family, parents. So all of those losses give us a deeper understanding of changes, the impermanence of things. Even the things we love are going to change. Instant impermanence. My grandchildren told me they don't want to do crafts anymore. I'm so disappointed. That impermanence. So there's definitely disappointment with changes, isn't there? And that's important to acknowledge that too, the disappointments and the difficulty of things.

[27:24]

But when we change our perspective on things, do a little shifting, you know, realize that things and people and the world, the way it is, we know this, but you have to keep saying it, it is impermanent and unsubstantial. It's just so hard to realize things are going to change, some things that we just love. And then one day, it's changed. And it's disappointing. You definitely have to recognize that these things are disappointing and it's a loss. But when we renunciation, when we really renunciate, we're just letting go. and finding some joy there in letting go, knowing what is inevitable. All of this is not so easy to do, but I think with practice it does get easier, more acceptance.

[28:38]

So when we find what it is we want to change, we've really studied it and tried tried something, then we can practice renunciation of letting go. Sometimes, too, it's good to start with little things. You get in the habit of renunciating. Don't start something that's too big because that could cause resentment. And it will come back. And also, to recognize there's a lot of comfort, comfort and safety, you know, security and familiarity with these habits, compulsiveness. It's just so familiar and comfortable. Why change that? But digging a little deeper to see, well,

[29:46]

is it is it really satisfying to be doing this we can ask ourselves questions like if we think we're ready to let go really what is it what i want or need right now and is this thing dragging me down. It really requires some honesty and deep looking. What am I actually getting out of this? What do I keep doing or saying that gives me the same unsatisfying result? Again, like I say, it's comfort. There's security there.

[30:48]

It requires really being honest with oneself. And this is something I used to find enjoyable, but still not that interesting. Now really look at this. It's really not so great anymore. Darn. I wanted that thing to last forever. what what does my happiness really depend on and does it depend this happiness does it depend on continuing this habit it's very familiar comfortable secure habit and do i even believe this will bring me happiness if these things the answers are yes then not ready to let it go then that's okay What's wrong with that? So, the focus is not what's being left behind when you're really practicing renunciation, but what is coming, what's coming forward.

[32:02]

What is opening? And there is an opening. When you remove something, there's an opening. It's kind of like closed. Women used to say that, right? You go out and get rid of something. Well, now I can put something back in. So there is some spaciousness and peace with something that's been dragging us down. So during my Suuso period, I had the koan, Kyogen's person up a tree. And some of you may remember if you were around. This person was stuck, was really stuck somewhere in his life. In the koan, you know, it's an analogy. The man is, or the person, man, woman, whoever it is, this person is hanging by the branch with just his teeth, just his teeth, nothing else to support him.

[33:17]

And there's so much stuckness, right? You can see there's just so much stuckness there. Probably fear. Because if they let go, well, gosh, they're going to lose something. You have to do something that's very precious to them, a piece of themselves, that they don't want to give up. So this person just hangs on for dear life. Now, someone comes along, very sincere person, and asks him, honest way about a dumber question, what is the meaning of Bodhidharma coming to the West?

[34:24]

He really wants to know. So this is a dilemma I'm sure we've all had in our own lives. Maybe we want to move on, but just can't quite do it. all the things we might lose if we do. And so what to do, what to do here? And if they do let go, what's that gonna do to them, their self-image? let me go. And if they do live, and if they actually stay in the ranch, there's going to be a lot of suffering, hanging on, just that stuckness.

[35:30]

But if they let go, something can open up, and they can be of help. So I listened to a talk that Sojin gave a while back, and the talk was about renunciation. It was about what is there to let go of, and what is there to take up, and what is the opening if we do let go? So some of the examples he gave was letting go and admitting our powerlessness. That we really don't have control.

[36:35]

We really look at things we don't have control. And what we can take up is a mindset that we can't do anything about a particular situation. So we can just let go and open up really to the present moment and see what's right in front of us. For another example, letting go of blaming others. Well, instead taking up and asking how, instead of blaming someone, How can we make the most of our lives? Just putting the focus back over here. What can I do? Letting go of fixing someone else.

[37:38]

And rather than that, taking up and asking, how can I support this person? rather than fixing them or letting go of judging another but rather allowing that person to be just as they are recognizing not everyone is like me and let the person live their own life So kind of giving that person a wide field to be just as they are. Or letting go of regrets about the past. Rather than taking up and putting energy into the future. Energy into our future.

[38:46]

And last he said, Letting go and practicing less fear. Instead, taking up, loving more. So this is an important and lifelong practice. It's the whole of our practice. and we're going to continue to meet our edge. And as we go through that edge, there'll be a new edge to remunciate, and then another edge, and so on, because that will be our life. But with every new edge that we pass through, hopefully you'll experience, we'll experience more spaciousness

[39:52]

and more opening, more aliveness, more being present. So renunciation is a really wonderful practice. So I think I'm going to stop there and see if anyone has any questions or comments. Yeah, Salvador. Thank you for that wonderful talk. Thank you. I have two questions. How does one renunciate this modern world and still honor one's commitment to family, taking care of family, and honor one's commitment to work?

[40:54]

That's a good question, I feel. Now another question is, is that, is zazen a form of renunciation? Like letting go. Right. Okay. Well, let me start with that. So Salvador's asked, is zazen a form of renunciation? And I believe so. With every breath, as we take in and every breath out, we are letting go. Hopefully we're letting go of thoughts rather than moving on to them. We're just letting them pass by. So that's a letting go. Or of our pain. Just being with it, letting it go. Or emotions that come up. We take it in, and then we let it go. We're taking in, just as we take in our breath,

[42:02]

and then let it go. And it may come back over and over again, just like things we want to renunciate, we're not quite ready to come back until it finally lets go less. Does that answer your question? And your second question, or your other question was, How do you enunciate when you have family, and tell me if this is correct, or family that you must care for, work that you must care for? Did I get that right? Well, we're enunciating all the time. For example, like in family, I think it's probably just constant renunciation because you have a partner and you're having to give, let go all the time.

[43:15]

Maybe your opinion, helping out. It's one big practice, not just here in the Zen Do, in the temple, but it's like every moment. And at work, Well, there's all kinds of challenges, and we're getting along with people, so maybe we have to renunciate our ideas, the way things should go, and letting new things arise. So it's constant practice of renunciation wherever you are, wherever you are. Would you like to say something?

[44:23]

Yeah, I'd say two things. First of all, just in resonance with what you uh, said about drinking, uh, just to say that, uh, I gave up all alcohol about a year ago, before it gave me up, sort of, and that feels better. Uh, there still is some, some pull towards the social dimension of it, but it gets It lessens every day. And I think it just feels better for my body and mind. Because, not just because it thrizzles, it's one of the drunken habits on the planet, but also it has its own energy that pulls you through it. So I'm just sort of seconding that.

[45:28]

Yeah. The other thing I was going to say, you know, at the core of our teaching, is from , and we'll talk about this during . We're going to talk about instructions for , and the philosophical or spiritual basis of that. But it's renunciation, drop body and mind. That doesn't mean not having a body, not having a mind, but it's It means when you let go of something, as you said, you open to something else. You can open to something deeper. That's the spirit, as you were saying, of Zaza. So there's an ultimate renunciation at the heart of our teaching that we receive from talking about Zaza.

[46:32]

Thank you. And it's also, just to add, I'm sorry, it's not something you can do. You can't drop it intentionally or kind of instrumentally. It's just you allow it to fall away. You allow your conceptions and your self-centered ideas to fall away. So it's like, as Suzuki said, it's not that. you give up things, but that they give you up. Yeah, and I think it gets easier with practice. Maybe, maybe not. This is all, this is all, we're all practicing for our diet. So it, you know, it's not always easy. Thank you. I'd just like to say too, I had talked about my alcohol. addiction once before.

[47:37]

Someone asked me, was it okay to have a glass of wine? And I said, yes, by all means. If this isn't your addiction, if this isn't, then there's nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong. So I hope you didn't get the opinion, like the impression, oh gosh, I'm going to have to give up that glass of wine. Everything is different for every person. It's just you looking at your own. compulsions with something. Mary? Thank you. Your talk speaks to me. I had a professor once who said, when is the good the end of the better? Which came up for me while you were talking with right. This thing here, which I like, maybe in my way of doing something that has greater spaciousness of freedom.

[48:39]

But even in the phrase, the good may be the enemy of the better, making something an enemy is adding the kind of energy that I think you spoke to about this is not about bad and good, this is about staying friendly with one's edge, right? I mean that that adding our own judgment about our edge is maybe an additional layer of difficulty. I mean, I wonder if you would speak to that. Right. I can paraphrase that for everyone. But basically talking about, well, the way I understand it, These things are not bad.

[49:42]

They're not bad. I didn't want to put that impression that it was bad, but there could be something better. So, as I say, it really requires a lot of honesty because life seems pretty good, but then when you start to look and see, is it really quite satisfying? I think that's the thing. as interesting as it used to be, then we can start to be honest and see something better. Kind of just repeating what you said, I think. I'm just trying to think about what that edge is between a self-improvement project, which has some criticism of one's self, versus a friendly looking at something and saying, oh, I think I would like something else without making an enemy of the thing that was.

[50:48]

That's a kind of tricky edge. I was inviting you to say something about that. About how it could easily turn into a self-criticism versus a... Yeah, that's good. How could something... I think it's starting out good becomes like a self-improvement project, which it's not meant to be. It becomes a criticism. It's a little block. And I would say myself, you're not quite ready. You just have to keep looking at that, looking at it, and seeing, well, you know, maybe it isn't so bad. Maybe this is still enjoyable. And I'm comfortable with this. than letting it be until maybe it gets less uncomfortable, less comfortable. That's a good question though.

[51:54]

Don't want it to turn into that. Laurie? I'm still on Salvador's question. You know, because the Buddha actually did renounce his family and his children. And I think that for us, there's a difference between your responsibilities and your attachments. And we're still not sure how we feel about the Buddha giving up his responsibilities, you know, even though he gave up, gave him up as attachments, you know. And so just say a little bit more about, because I happen to know that as a young child, so um i like what your answer was but um i just i would just like to flesh that if you wouldn't mind just flushing that out a little bit more but what do you give up when you're you know what is renouncing uh your family ish well of course now i've done the same thing

[53:06]

So I let my son go live with his dad. And so I gave that up. I gained a lot for myself and a big opening. And I also lost a lot. So I can't say one weighed more, outweighed the other. But I've said this before, there was such a strong pull that just was, as Soji would say, that was my destiny. And then, of course, I spent a lifetime making amends. Making amends and making up for what I gave up.

[54:11]

There's someone in the chat. Yes, Carol. There was a message from Janae thanking you for your deep consideration of renunciation and for sharing it with so much simplicity, clarity, and heart. And then Karen has a question. She has her digital hand up. Thanks. Well, Karen. Hi, Kira. Hi. Yes, I really appreciate your honesty. My question is, how would you frame grief within renunciation, with this topic of renunciation? How does grief play? How do you address your grief? Well, first of all, I know about that. since I did lose my spouse, and all of us know about it.

[55:16]

I'm sure some are very dear to us. Well, first of all, you have to grieve. You take as long as you need to take to grieve. Don't shortchange yourself. Because it may come back and back and back. And I think then you start to realize that we're going to lose everything. We are going to lose everything. And so we begin to accept that. And hopefully there's an opening with the loss. Something does open up.

[56:09]

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