Okay, so I want to just give a little bit of background tonight, probably less background on the other nights. And this is probably stuff that some of you may know already and you may even know. Please feel free to step in if you know something that's more than what I know. And if you have any questions also in this process, in the first 10 minutes or so of background. So, Pali suttas, sutta is the Pali word for sutra, Sanskrit in Sanskrit. So sutra is the Sanskrit, sutta is the Pali. Sanskrit is like the scholarly language and Pali is kind of the common people's language. recorded in Pali, and they're purported to be the word for word, you know, words of Shakyamuni Buddha, which were listened to by his attendant and cousin Ananda, who had like, what's the, I don't know what the equivalent of a photographic memory, but, you know, supposedly remembered it word for word and memorized it and passed it on, and the monks kept it alive.

[01:29]

passing it on generation to generation. I don't know how many people saw the movie Fahrenheit 451, but I always have that image of at the end, the people are like, each person has memorized a book around reciting the book they memorized. So I always think about that. So anyway, when I first, so these are a very important part of the Theravada teaching and Theravada means old way. And you may be more familiar with the term Hinayana, which means less, which is kind of like the put down term from the perspective of the Mahayana, the great vehicle. They use the term Hinayana, but we're going to use Theravada, which means old way. And that's, you know, this way of practice supposedly that's been passed down from generations and is practiced in a number of places in Asia, you know, and they still use these same texts as their, as their written literature. And the way when I first came, and many of you may know this, there was a feeling that, you know, these sutras are from the time of the Buddha, and then the Mahi came, appeared like several hundred years later.

[02:43]

And maybe that is what happened, but what we do know is that nothing was written down until about 400 years after the Buddha. There was no written language. So we really don't know. They were both written down at the time. So we really don't know when the Mahayana is from. It could be from some time later after the Buddha. It could have been something that was around at the time of the Buddha. But what we do know is that it always sort of refers to the Pali script. It refers to the... teaching. It's sort of like always referencing it and kind of bouncing off of it and some of the characters that you find in the Pali scriptures end up being characters in the Mahayana scriptures. And also the other come to light recently is that some scholars feel like there's evidence that the Pali is like

[03:48]

was revised over the centuries, like elements of Hinduism and elements of other Indian literature kind of, I mean, teaching or understandings back in. So this feeling that we used to have when I started that these were somehow like, if you're reading the Pali, that was word for word what the Buddha said has been undermined a bit by scholars. And so everything's a little bit less solve what I used to understand and maybe what what we used to some of you used to understand okay so back to this Theravada Mahayana I'm going to share the screen again back to this go down to okay so Here we have the two branches. We've got the Mahayana literature and the Theravada.

[04:49]

It's called the Tripitaka. Tripitaka means three baskets, and I've got a detail of the Tripitaka below. But what I wanted to say is, so over here in the, you know, so like we read the Heart Sutra, and the Heart Sutra refers to... the five skandhas, you know, form is emptiness, emptiness is form, the same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses, and consciousness. Those are the five skandhas. And they're over here, along with the Heart Sutra refers to like the 18 Datus and the 12-fold chain of causation and the Four Noble Truths. Those are all things over here on the Theravada side. And the Heart Sutra, so what the Heart Sutra is kind of saying is, Well, what these people are saying is, you don't have a self. What you have is 18 datus or a 12-fold chain of causation. And these people over here are saying, you don't even have that. That's why we say no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, et cetera.

[05:54]

So the Mahayana is like a response to this Kravada teaching often. And of course, it goes way beyond that and becomes much more cosmic. But even in the cosmic books, some of the characters will show up. The, you know, Shariputra, Sabuti, various people will show up from that we know about from over here. Any questions so far? Just please unmute and ask because I can't really see the whole screen while I'm sharing. Lori, I have one quick question about the heart sutra. Wasn't another thing that it was sort of revolutionizing was not only do you not have a self. Yes. Yes. Right. Good point. Good point. These things are all empty. So like when in one version, you don't have a self, instead you have these things. And then he's saying, no, these things don't exist either. They're not any more real than a self.

[06:55]

They're just, they're just ideas or concepts, you know? Okay. That's kind of already what was being said with the original teachings in the old way. It was just reemphasized in a new kind of more sophisticated for that time because, you know, culture had developed. People were mistaking things and taking for concrete all of these elements to existence, which were only there to for us to see through and recognize is not actually existing. No one actually said the Skandas existed. You meditate on the Skandas in order to recognize that they don't exist. Right. It needed revision, not that it wasn't already. It's kind of just in spirit of the original kind of reinvigorating maybe. Yes, and people have different feelings about that. We have a friend who's a Theravada teacher, Santicaro Bhikkhu, he's not Bhikkhu anymore, but anyway, he says everything in the heart is in the Pali canon.

[08:02]

So, yeah, so that's another thing that's sort of up in the air here in this conversation that we're having here in these classes. Okay, thank you. So, the trepitica, the three baskets includes the vinaya, the sutta pidika and the abhidhamma which is abhidhamma is like the compilation into a cohesive doctrine all these teachings that the buddha just sort of gave in response to different people he gave different teachings in response to different people they later on tried to make that into a cohesive system and that's the abhidhamma it's pretty much like commentary on the suttas And in the sutta pitika, which is what we're looking at, there's five groups of books. They're sort of like somewhat strangely collected, not by topic, but by the length of them.

[09:06]

So there's the long ones, the middle length, the connected, which I think might also be the numeric, might be another name for that. It's like all the ones, all the twos, all the threes, all the fours. And then the... is the Book of Gradual Sayings, and then this is another book I'm much less familiar with. And if people want to pursue this after this class, I recommend tackling it from the Majima Nikkei, the Middle Length Discourses, if you want to just explore on your own. I found them to be the most accessible, although not all the ones we're doing in this class are from there this time. Okay, any questions about the Nikayas, which is the word for these five sets of these five groups of suttas? Is the Pali word suttas, but sometimes I might forget. Okay, then I'm going to stop the share again, talk a little bit more about the

[10:16]

Buddha and how the Buddha comes off in these suttas. And, you know, he's going to come off differently to different people, but generally some people have a hard time with the way he comes off. So I just wanted to bring that up and sort of fluff that up a little. You know, he comes pedantic, a little bit ponderous, very repetitive, in some cases a bit misogynist. And above all, Tuari is very dualistic. I mean, he is not afraid to say, do this, don't do that. And he generalizes the language of skillful and unskillful or wholesome and unwholesome rather than good and bad or right and wrong. And I was even thinking... Thinking about skillful and unskillful, I was wondering if we could even think of it almost like as careful and careless, perhaps.

[11:19]

This is the way to be careful. This is kind of careless, this other way to do things. And, you know, of course, our Zen teachers were steeped in these teachings. They had access to the Pali literature as well as other Mahayana literature that was already being. in translation in Chinese, but they also had this Daoist sensibility, which is sort of like, to some extent, it's a little bit like, if you try to do good, you're going to probably do bad. If you try to help people, you're probably going to cause harm. So there, you know, there's kind of a thing in Daoism of like, just let things be, let things go as they go, you know, and so That was kind of the in the background, I think, was one of the reasons why we're so. The emphasis on not, of course, the Buddha was very much into non dualism, but. Was not afraid to call out things that were.

[12:24]

You know, basically, like I said, skillful or wholesome versus unskillful or unwholesome or careless. I was, while I was preparing for this class, side of this book that's been lying around in our kitchen table. It's a perfectly good book. I'm not criticizing the book, but with my, you know, the title of the book is, I think it's Enlightenment is an Accident. And with my sort of Pali Sutra glasses on, looking at that, I was just like, no. Anything the Buddha would ever say in a million years, I don't think. Enlightenment, I mean, what they're talking about when they talk about enlightenment being an accident is this kind of sudden experience, this kencho that we might have some momentary experience of opening or inside or dropping away of the self. But what Buddha's talking about is what enlightenment is, which is a much more wisdom and insight-based thing that you get through cultivation, you know?

[13:32]

I'm not sure how, and I sort of fell into that a little bit with my enlightenment stories from the, because these are also stories of momentary kind of openings that people have. But anyway, I would say wisdom is not, in the terms of polycanon, it's not any kind of an accident. So, and they're very much about cultivation, sight and wisdom, which can help us with our choices. and help us to move in more wholesome directions. Now we know Suzuki Roshi was all about no gaining idea. And as we heard those of us who went to Paul's talk on Saturday, he said, you know, Suzuki Roshi's main team, make two. That's what I remember it being. So, and you know, but Suzuki Roshi also said, we do Hinayana practice with Mahayana mind. or in my terms, we do Theravada practice with Mahayana mind.

[14:38]

So I think that this non-dual and the gaining idea versus cultivation and all that is part of it, is the subtext that we're working with here in this class. So please feel free to bring up your questions about that or about anything else. Now, I just wanted to... point out that there's a couple of Pali suttas that are well known to us. One is the metta sutta that we chant quite often. We sort of revise the wording. It's really kind of a list of shoulds. The disciple of the Buddha should do this, should do this, but we change it to may I do this or may we, something like that. But that's one of the Pali scriptures. And also the satipatana sutta, The Four Foundations of Mindfulness is pretty well-known, well-aired Pali Sutta that, you know, and I always recommend this, what I think is called Transformation in Healing, which is his commentary on the Four Foundations of Mindfulness.

[15:46]

I put that on the, for those of you who access the Google Doc, I put a link to that on there. So for me, one of the things that I, really respond to in these is the way the Buddha always is very respectful of his auditors. You know, that radio show, I was listening, I heard this, it's a little bit, that radio show philosophy talk has always like, the show that questions everything except your intelligence. And so I feel like that's kind of the Buddha. He questions everything except our intelligence. And that's particularly coming out in this sutra that we're gonna read tonight, the Kalama Sutta, two of the Kalamas. I will share my screen, another document, and maybe I'll read the first couple paragraphs.

[16:47]

Let's take a pause after every paragraph. And since we're sharing, I won't be able to see your raised hands. So if you have, we'll take a pause if anybody has a question or a comment. I have a comment for a couple paragraphs. And then I'll call on you guys. I'm going to call on the people who have their cameras on. And we'll take turns reading maybe a paragraph at a time. And I also want to do, there's a few paragraphs that are like a conversation. The Kalamas, this group of people, and I thought it would be fun if we had two people, for starters, one person playing the role of Buddha and another person reading that Kalama portion. So let's try that, see. They're little dramas, you know, little dramas. So any questions before I do the share? Thank you. Thank you for your listening.

[17:49]

How's that for size? Okay. So this is the Anguttara Nikaya, which was, I already forgot, which I think that's, I'm just gonna, you're not gonna be able to see this, but I'm gonna quickly go back over there to that. That's the gradual sayings. Okay. Okay. Thus have I heard. Once the Blessed One, while wandering in the Kosala country with a large community of bhikkhus, entered a town of the Kalama people called Kesaputta. The Kalamas of Kesaputta heard it said, the monk, the son of the Shakyans, has, while wandering in the Kosala country, entered Kesaputta. The good repute of the reverend Gautama has spread in this way. Indeed, the Blessed One is thus consummate, fully enlightened, endowed with knowledge and practice, sublime, fearless, guide of tameable people, teacher of divine and human beings, which he by himself has through direct knowledge understood clearly.

[19:12]

He set forth the Dhamma, good in the beginning, good in the middle, good in the end, possessed of meaning in the letter, and complete. proclaims the holy life that is perfectly pure. Seeing such consummate ones is good indeed. Okay. Then the Kalamas of Kesaputta went to where the Blessed One was. Some paid homage to him and sat down on one side. Some exchanged greetings with him and after the ending of the cordial memorable talk sat down on one side. Some saluted him, raising their joined palms and sat down on one side. Some announced their name and family and sat down on one side. Some without speaking on one side. So I understand. I think we're getting a clue. For me, we're getting a clue here that these were a group of varied people. The Kalamas are people who are coming at this from a bunch of different ways.

[20:17]

Some may be super respectful. Some not wanting to drink the Kool-Aid or whatever, something like that. Some people cautious. Taking all these different approaches to meeting the Buddha. And that's actually somewhat unusual. Most of the time in a sutra, you see the people paying homage to him and sitting down to one side, and that's kind of where they leave it. Okay. The Kalamas of Kesaputta sitting on one side. There are some monks and Brahmins, Venerable Sir, who visit Kesaputta. They expound and explain only their own doctrines. The doctrines of others they despise, revile, and pull to pieces. Some other monks and Brahmins too, Venerable Sir, come to Kesaputta.

[21:18]

They also explain playing their own doctrines, the doctrines of others they despise, revile, and pull to pieces. Venerable sir, there is doubt, there is uncertainty in us concerning them. Which of these venerable monks and brahmins spoke the truth and which falsehood? Does anybody feel some with this question and problem? Okay, so I'm going to read one more. It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain. Uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. I love that respect is coming in. So he's basically telling them, good question. You're having uncertainty about something uncertain. You're having doubts about something doubtful. And to me, this is where he's being very respectful. And he's being really careful not to do the same thing

[22:19]

telling him these other people did which is lay out his own doctrine and say it's right and all those other people are wrong right so he's he's treading very carefully um and uh and he doesn't always but in this case with this group of people he's treading carefully and and to much very respectfully so he says do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing nor upon tradition nor upon rumor nor upon what is in a scripture, nor upon surmise, nor upon an axiom, nor upon specious reasoning, nor upon a biased has been pondered over, nor upon another seeming ability, nor upon the consideration that monk is our teacher. Kalamas, when you yourselves know these things are bad, these things are blameable, these things are censured by the wise, undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm. abandon them.

[23:22]

Okay. So now let's move on to the dialogue here. So just going from the top of my screen, Karen, do you want to take the Buddha role? And Paolo, do you want to Kalamaz? Sure. I'll be Buddha. What do you think, Calamus? Does greed appear in a man for his benefit or harm? Let's try to do person when we can. Oh, okay. Does greed appear in a person for his benefit or harm? For his harm, Venerable Sir. Calamus, being given to greed and being overwhelmed and vanquished mentally by greed... This person takes life, steals, commits adultery, and tells lies. Another two to do likewise. Will that be long for their harm and ill?

[24:26]

Yes, venerable sir. Let's do the three. Let's do six and seven too. Okay. And then we'll pause. What do you think, Calamus? Does hate appear in a person for their benefit or harm? For his harm, venerable sir. Calamus, being given to hate and being overwhelmed and vanquished mentally by hate, this person takes life, steals, commits adultery, and tells lies. They prompt another two to do likewise. Will that be long for their harm? Yes, venerable sir. What do you think, Calamus? Does delusion appear in a person for their benefit or harm? For his harm, venerable sir. Kalamas being given to delusion and being overwhelmed and vanquished mentally by delusion. This steals, commits adultery and tells lies. They prompt another two to do likewise. Will that be long for their harm and ill?

[25:30]

Yes, venerable sir. Okay, that might be a good place to take a pause. Any thoughts? Lori, this is Sue. Hi. Hi. Will that be long for their harm and ill? What does that mean? That it will last a long time or have huge consequences? Yeah, that's what I'm taking it. Will that have the consequences of harm and ill for a long time? Yeah. but do people at the time actually talking this very repetitive way? He's got the three poisons here, what we think of as the three poisons, greed, hatred, and delusion. He's laying them out here. And he often is speaking very repetitively.

[26:32]

And I think that's one thing that is an aid to memorization. So when this was first spoken, the monks were memorized. repetition and patterns, language patterns. But that's definitely the flavor of these sutras. Yeah. Lori, for like 500 years, it was just an oral tradition. Something like that. Yeah, something like that. I like that the Buddha asks the question and never confirms. Yes, I know. And he's, you know, again, he's talking to these people who've come to him really i would almost say traumatized by this thing that they've been caught in trying to figure out which of these teachers that has come them is is the true one you know and so he's being really careful not to say anything really and um that's part of the beauty of this sutra now people call sometimes called the sutra the sutra of free inquiry and you know other people have you know

[27:39]

like that's going a little bit too far he's not just whatever whatever you whatever you verify for yourself you know he's he's guiding them he's coaching them you know he's not just saying okay leave now and and you know find out for yourselves what's true he's he's doing a lot of guiding but again asking them he's he's saying what do you think you know and he often will do that in a sutra especially um These ones that are for non his not his monks, like the lay people that he comes across. What do you think he'll say? And he's in that way. Mean by the respect that comes across to me. OK, back up to number four, I think is the criterion for right when you were reading that. It really reminded me of Sojin a lot, like just sort of saying, you know, you know, I say you like it out, you know, you know, just sort of has that flavor.

[28:51]

And then there's the these things are centered by the wise. So that's almost like what does that mean in terms of. Not going upon repeated hearing or tradition, you know. I mean, it's not that categorical. It's okay to have people you respect, who's thinking you respect, and if they would censure it, you know, and how do you develop respect for someone? Not just because they keep saying the same thing, not just because you're a teacher, not just because it's your tradition, you know? So it's very much on us to figure out what's centered by the wise. You know, that's also a line in the meta suit. I think there's something in there by, you know, what the wise would reprove. Right. So thought that this line in the beginning about doubt and uncertainty, you know, like it's good for you to have that, you know, that he's saying, you know, be doubtful, be uncertain.

[29:54]

Yeah. Yeah. Don't be afraid of that. And I think in this case, I'm at the end. There's another suture where someone asks a similar question and he does not say that. So it's interesting. But I do think he's basically saying you are justified in how you're feeling. You know, if this is upsetting you, hearing these things, that's just a sense. That's what people do feel in that situation, you know. Okay. This is Natasha. Oh, hi, Natasha. Hi. If you've ever read any of the, like, Socratic dialogues, this sounds, like, very, very similar to that. Oh, really? I haven't. You know, yeah, like, Socrates is asking a question like these, right, that are kind of leading questions, but kind of getting you to that place without telling you what to think. Right. That's good. Thanks for bringing that in. Okay, so now let's get a couple other players in our little play.

[30:59]

I think we're on eight. So how about how about Natasha? You popped up because I think because you knew it. How about you and Susan? You Natasha, why don't you take the Buddha and Susan? Why don't you take the Kalamas? Yes. OK, number eight. What do you think is good or bad? Bad, venerable, sir. Blameable or not blameable? Blameable, venerable, sir. censured or praised by the wise? Censured, venerable sir. Undertaken and observed, do these things lead to harm and ill or not? Or how does it strike you? Undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill. Thus, it strikes us here. Therefore, did we say, oh, sorry, go ahead. Go ahead, yeah. Therefore, did we say, Kalamas, what was said thus? Come, Kalamas, do not go upon what has been acquired by nor upon tradition, nor upon rumor, nor upon what is in a scripture, nor upon surmise, nor upon an axiom, nor upon specious reasoning, nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over, nor upon another seeming ability, nor upon the consideration.

[32:14]

The monk is our teacher. Palamas, when you yourselves know, these things are bad, these things are censured by the wise, undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill, abandon them. Okay. So then he's going to say that all over again. Let's have another. Chloe, do you want to read the criteria? Okay. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing, nor upon tradition, nor upon rumor, nor upon what is in a scripture, nor upon... nor upon an axiom, nor upon species reasoning, nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over, nor upon another seeming ability, nor upon the consideration the monk is our teacher.

[33:18]

Kalama, you yourselves know these things are good, these things are not blamable, these things are praised by the wise, undertaken and observed, These things lead to benefit and happiness. Enter on and abide in them. I just meant, so I just looked it up. It means superficially plausible, but actually wrong. Plausible, but not based on anything. Okay, so we heard those criteria again. Now we're going to go through the absence of greed, hate, and delusion. And let's see. Can I just say something? Sure. At that time when Chloe read that, it really struck me that this is really saying study the self. Aha, interesting. Say a little more about that. Well, he's just saying deep.

[34:21]

And if you find this, then pay attention. And if you find this, then pay attention. You know, the end of all that study and you realize, this is not a good thing, then don't do it. Yeah, right. And you realize this is really wholesome, then follow that. Look within, but not separate from what is praised by the wise, you know, so it's not totally looking within. And it's kind of like putting it to the test of reality, of experience, right? Like, back on what Susan's pointing at, like, and much as it seems like it's obvious enough to get on the surface of it, because it's very easy to think, oh, I've a notion that has been pondered over. There are so many things that seem like this should be what is correct or what is right. But when tested against reality, it's not. I think a lot of people have made that kind of mistake. It's another one.

[35:22]

It's when you've seen those who have been tested by the fires, the wise, bearing witness to something, and then you yourself bearing witness to it through experience. And it tracks with the Buddha's own experience as well. I mean, he chased after a prince. He went and did a bunch of ascetic practices and didn't come up with anything. And it wasn't until he sat and found what he was really looking for in himself that he went out and taught. So it's, you know, he's not saying anything that he hasn't done himself, to your point. Yeah, good point. Right. something about this bias toward a notion that has been pondered over like that. Maybe that's not what he means, but I keep thinking if you've held the belief for a long time, you know, there's almost like this sunk cost fallacy where it's harder to let go of. You've got your identity bound up with it, right? And so that's like you have a bias toward been thinking for, you know, believing for a long time.

[36:23]

Don't go by that. Okay. Where are, I got a little, did we start? We haven't started this yet, right? We're going to new speakers. Okay, Ron, can you see the screen? Are you okay? Do you want to be one of the speakers? You got to unmute to tell us what you think. Oops, you got to unmute. I just left the class where I did a lot of reading and my head is throbbing right now. Okay, we don't want to make that any worse than it already is. Okay. Oh, wait, I don't think we need two people, do we? Oh, yeah, we do. We need two people. So how about Ron, do you want to be the Buddha? And Sue, do you want to be Kalamas? Okay. And unmute. Yeah, there you go. Which paragraph? We're starting on 11. Okay. Does an absence of greed appear in a person for their benefit or harm?

[37:27]

For their benefit. Whoops, whoops. I'm sorry. Okay. For their benefit, Venerable Sir. Columbus, being not given to greed and being not over and not vanquished mentally by greed, this person does not take life, does not steal, does not commit adultery, and does not tell lies. This person prompts another two to do likewise. Will that be long for their benefit and happiness? Venerable Sir. What do you think, Columbus? Does absence of hate appear in a person for their benefit or harm? For their benefit, Venerable Sir. Columbus, being not given to hate and being not overwhelmed mentally by hate, this person does not take life, does not steal, does not commit adultery, and does not tell lies.

[38:30]

This person prompts another two to do likewise. Will that be long for their benefit and happiness? Yes, venerable. What do you think, Kalamis? Does absence of delusion appear in a person for their benefit or harm? For their benefit, venerable sir. Kalamis, being not given to delusion and being not overwhelmed and not vanquished mentally by it, This person does not take life, does not steal, does not commit adultery, and does not tell lies. This person prompts another two to do likewise. Will that be long for their benefit and happiness? Yes, venerable sir. Thank you. I like how he brings in the part about prompting others too. Like it's not just the person themself. but it's what you encourage in others by just your actions and choices.

[39:35]

I really like how he brings that in. Are we seeing the beginning of the precepts taking form here? Yes, the first four, right? That's pretty much the order that we find them in. And you get the feeling these are like the real. Then they kept adding more, you know. Or the for, the core for somehow. To me anyway. Any other comments? It's interesting that the motivation seems to be for the person themselves to be benefited, be happy. Yeah. I would have imagined that the motivation was more for other people, for the precepts. Right. And that could be related to the critique of these early scriptures that they're more about individual cultivation than about saving all beings, you know.

[40:38]

You know, we do need to start somewhere. And yeah. Well, there's that line. The person prompts another two to do likewise. And that's sort of left open like that could mean just modeling. Yes. Any number of things, teaching, modeling, right. I mean, it's never just this isolated person. It's also about, you know, in the part about the criteria, it's the, you know, what the wise reprove. And then so you're always in something. people and affecting each other you know you know i don't know the early suits is well enough so i apologize but you know it was something i was i was hearing an audible the the great disciples of the buddha um which is directly from the poly suttas and he overtly states he compares um for the once you know the person who does all the spiritual work

[41:44]

Only for themselves. Are they superior to the person who does all the spiritual work and who does it for themselves and for the benefit of others? And then he very clearly states, oh, you know, the person who does this for themselves and for the benefit of others is clearly superior to the practitioner. So it's almost like the seed of Mahayana. Yeah. Yeah. I really would. I would love to. know exactly you know what that conversation was like and how the Mahayana came into being and you know just somewhat mysterious but also makes perfect sense and I know you're right that that's what many people say is that everything and that's kind of in a way what I think that Suzuki Roshi's point is that we're like we this is the practice that we do we do that practice that these people do but we have this mind of big big And he's not saying Buddha doesn't have a big mind.

[42:45]

I think they are saying Buddha has a Buddha. In other words, be like Buddha. Don't do what he said. Do what he did. Which was care about other people. Okay. Now we're going to need another pair. Let's say, how about Anne and Alex? Ann, do you want to be the Buddha? And Alex, do you want to do the Kalamas? Oh, you've got to unmute. You're talking, but we're not hearing you. I see your mouth moving. Are you able to unmute yourself? It's usually in the lower left. It says, there's a little microphone. You click it. There you go. Now. Oops. There you go. Okay.

[43:45]

Okay. Can you hear me now? Yes, we can. Okay. Now we have to go back to the shared screen here. There. Oh, okay. You got it? Yes. Okay. We're on 14. What do you think, Kalamis? Are these things good or bad? Good, venerable, sir. Blameable or not blameable? Not blamable, venerable sir. Censured or praised by the wise. Praised, venerable sir. Undertaken and observed, do these things lead to benefit and happiness or not? Or how does it strike you? Undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness. Thus, it strikes us here. And there, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead and finish. Therefore, did we. What was said thus, come Kalamas, do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing, nor upon tradition, nor upon rumor, nor upon what is in a scripture, nor upon surmise, nor upon an axiom, nor upon specious reasoning, nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over, nor upon another seeming ability.

[45:10]

nor upon the consideration. The monk is our teacher. Kalamis, when you know, when you yourselves know, these things are not blameable. These things are praised by the wise. Undertaken and observed. These things lead to benefit and happiness. Enter on and abide in them. And, you know, it's interesting. So now we've had the three poisons. We've had the first four of the five grave precepts. But I have to say, I've never heard that there's any other sutra where he lists these things that you don't go upon. I could be wrong, but this is like a rare thing. Whereas many things he repeats over and over in many sutras. This is something that... You know, and this is this thing about an appropriate response that we have in Zen.

[46:12]

He's talking to these people and meeting them, you know, where they are and what they need. So there's our skillful means right there. Lori, can I say something? Yes. The other thing that just feels so clear in this sutra to me, how much the precepts, for instance, are common sense. They're not a should. Think it through, you know. Anyway, it's just so when you think it through for yourself and you look at results, it makes sense how to be and that the precepts are like and this someone said this recently about Dogen's teaching that the precepts are less and more of a description of how Buddhas act. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, and the way he says it, it just seems so straightforward and simple. And so kind in a way. It's like, you know this, you know this.

[47:14]

Yeah, right. How does it strike you? Yeah, yeah. Okay, we're going to go now to the four, what we think of as the four Ramabihara, the four unlimited practices. And we're going to have a new, Miriam, do you want to be? Now, I think that I think this is all the Buddha from now on. So paragraphs and then we'll and then, you know, go ahead and do a couple paragraphs. The disciple of the noble ones, Kalamas, who in this way is devoid of coveting, devoid of ill will, undiluted, clearly comprehend and mindful, dwells, having pervaded. with the thought of loving kindness, one quarter. Likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth.

[48:16]

So above, below, and across, having pervaded because of the existence of it, of all living beings everywhere, the entire world, with the great, exalted, boundless thought, of loving kindness that is free of hate or malice. And I think with this, yeah, this thing about the quarters is like in all directions, what we think of as, you know, all throughout space and time, we could say, or, you know, the 10 directions. So this is the loving kindness. Right. The first of the four Brahma Viharas. Why don't you do one more? Okay. They live. having pervaded with the thought of compassion one quarter, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. So above, below, and across they dwell, having pervaded with the existence of it in all living beings everywhere, the entire world, with the great, exalted, boundless thought of compassion that is free of hate.

[49:32]

and malice so it looks like um compassion and living for you hate and i just the first time saw this phrase having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings Manana, look at the other translation, if people wouldn't mind me doing that. I didn't open it up, but I think you won't be able to see anything for a sec. I wonder what that, I'm not sure what that means. With the awareness imbued with goodwill, thus he keeps pervading above, below, and all around and everywhere, and in every respect, the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with goodwill.

[50:44]

Abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill-well. So it doesn't have that phrase. Because of the existence in it of all living beings. Is it the same as the existence of all living beings in it? Anyway, we'll leave that an open question, unless someone has a thought right now. I have a question. Yeah. I didn't quite catch what the one quarter, two quarters, three quarters, four quarters. The 10, you know, like east, the direction of the north, the direction of the north. South, the East, and the West. That's where I'm going with it. I think in all space, in all directions. Above, below, and all around. Yeah, I heard you don't get it from one quarter and two quarters.

[51:45]

Yeah, one fourth. Like it's a big circle, like a big pie. Like the universe is like a big pie and you're taking a quarter of it. But that's in one plane, so yeah. And if you want, I can just quickly see what I had to say about that directionality of it. He keeps remaining in the first direction, the east, as well as the second direction, the third and the fourth. So it is, yeah, it's the directions. Okay, let's move on to Daniel. You can do these next two paragraphs. Starting with the four solaces. No, above that. He lives, this one right here. He lives, having pervaded with a thought of sympathetic joy one quarter, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth.

[52:52]

So above, below, and across. He dwells, having pervaded because of the existence. of all living things, everywhere, the entire world, with a great, exalted, boundless thought of sympathetic joy that is free of hating or malice. Okay, I get it. It means because of the existence of all living beings in the universe. It's about the living beings, in other words. He's pervading it, he's pervading the living beings. Yeah, okay. Is it the living beings pervading or is it the four Brahma Vaharas? I think it's the, I believe it's the sympathetic joy. He's pervading in the whole world because it's full of living beings. I thought it might have been the Brahma Vaharas themselves also. Yeah. Having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings.

[53:55]

They exist in the Brahma Vaharas. I think that it is the Bama Vahara. I don't know. Yeah. It's almost like according with it. According with what's already happening in a way. Yeah. Joining. In the other translation. Joy that everything's in. Yeah. Thus he keeps pervading above everywhere. Right. And in respect. Yeah. in every respect, the all-encompassing cosmos. So it sounds like there might be a little bit of both, right? Both the Brahmavahara and everybody, right? Yeah. Okay, one more, Daniel. Before we discuss sympathetic joy, I've heard it talked of as empathetic joy instead of sympathetic joy. And other than that, it's The meaning is joy in other people, but it is also joy in your own joy.

[55:03]

It could be. And in fact, what Soma Tara first had was he had gladness. He didn't have sympathetic joy. I changed it because that's the one that we're used to hearing and that I kind of like the practice of. But yeah, I think it's another success. And also joy in your own, too. Yeah, I think that's important. First, when I heard it, I only thought it was for other people. But then later, I read somewhere that it's your own joy is important, too. It's not just joy. And not just success, but right. But, yeah, joy. Just joy is good. In flowers and stuff, right? Doesn't it seem like it's almost like joy in what is good, like joy in what is wholesome? It could be. I don't know. In there, we could. Yeah, we could. Yeah, it's pervading and pervades.

[56:07]

Uh-huh. These are like these four unlimited practices that that and this, you know, is all the way they're going all the way back here. to the Buddha. And I think actually they might have been something before. I think Alan mentioned that. I'll have to ask him. It was something that to some formulation of that was already sort of around those four things. Okay. Something that seems like, you know, the thought of sympathetic joy, let's see. of all living beings everywhere, the entire world. I mean, think about that. That's like there's no need for competition when that is there, when that is present. To me, it just gives this wonderful image of cooperation.

[57:11]

Yeah. And it's like what I think the other flip side of what Mary was bringing up is it's a false dichotomy, you know. Joy in ourselves and joy in the others, just another one. It's just a false dichotomy. It's the same joy, you know. It's the same joy, but if you're happy for another person's success or whatever you want to call it, you're not focused on this. Uh-huh. You're bringing that. It's coming outward, isn't it? Well, and it's also many, many, many, many more reasons to have joy. then if you just wait for your own, the odds are very good. You will be able to. And doesn't it seem like maybe these traits, these things are, are, are wisdom monster themselves. Like, um, uh-huh. Yeah, for sure. I, I know Plato had said, and I thought it was, you know, I think I'd, I'd heard it years ago and just overlooked it and didn't think anything of it.

[58:19]

And then, And it's really simple. Virtue is knowledge. The genuine virtue in itself, just by having that virtue, is proof of real wisdom. It can be. I mean, you know, I think that's where it sort of becomes... ...about... whether your virtue becomes some little nest you make for yourself or some ground you're standing upon that puts you above others and such. I mean, there's some traps there, but yes. Okay. I didn't mean to shut you down. I hope I shut you down or something. I think it is. Kind of that's what Karen was saying, that the Buddha's just, we... We follow the precepts when we're with our true self. We naturally behave in a certain way when we're connected to our true self. Okay, so now this is the beginning near the end, but there's a whole other big section here, which is a whole new...

[59:29]

So I don't know if anybody needs a bio break or anything. Do we want to take a three minute break or anything? Or should we just quickly read the equanimity? Oh, I'm sorry. That's for Daniel. Yeah, I'm sorry, Daniel. Go ahead. I got distracted. He lives having pervaded with a thought of equanimity. One quarter, likewise a second, likewise a third, likewise the fourth. So above, below and across. ...pervaded because of the existence in it of all living things, everywhere, the entire world, with a great, exalted, boundless thought of equanimity that is free of hate or malice. Right on. Okay. I'd like to say something about equanimity. Please. I went to a retreat... decades ago with Christina Feldman, and she said that the fact of having equanimity shows in how evolved you are.

[60:44]

I don't know if she used that word. I don't think so. Where you are in your practice, like more equanimity means more maturity in your practice. And that was such an aha moment for me. I had never heard the word before at our Zen Center in equanimity. So I just think that such an important focus of what our practice is about. Yeah. I mean, for me, I've experienced it more. The more I try to connect with things the way things are rather than the way I want them to be or not. I mean... The more connected I am to things as they are, the more equanimity I have, for sure. Right, right. Yeah. Sometimes. Well, the more we can let go, the more equanimity we have. Right. To me, it's been a goal.

[61:45]

I know we shouldn't have any goals or aims, but a way I can feel that... My practice has grown as if I have more equanimity. Yeah. And again, circling back to, yeah, just what naturally unfolds. Okay. So now I think we have time to finish it if we take like a three-minute break. Does anybody really want that? Please speak up now. Yes. Okay. Go for it. Excuse me. I should have muted myself there. I can't even see myself to mute myself. There I am. Laurie, how did you pick these particular passages to work with?

[63:28]

Well, somewhat, I would say somewhat haphazardly, maybe. I mean, this is, of all the sutras that aren't famous, this is probably the most famous. And I wanted to, I'm limiting myself to a certain set of sutras that where there's a... almost always a lay follower or followers who have this dialogue with the Buddha and by the end they have kind of like had this you could say enlightenment experience and there's a certain way that's always phrased at the end you know so all the ones we're going to study have this certain phrasing at the end and I mean this is just a really great sutra and some people feel like they take it people take it too freely, like the Buddha is really giving everybody carte blanche out for yourself. And I don't, I think it's pretty clear that he's not doing that in his skillful way. You know, he's definitely giving, he's giving them a lot of guidance in this very loose kind of skillful, you know, skillful way.

[64:36]

So, and then the next do is, I want to do, you know, he does a lot of stuff on karma. He does a lot of, talks on karma. So we're going to do one of those. And then I haven't totally decided on what the third class will be, but I have a couple ideas. While we're on the break, my understanding was always that the metasuta is not actually a suta, but it's sort of misnamed. Have you heard that before? No, but I'm just going to go quickly while we're waiting for people to come back to access to insight and see. I know. I guess I'm guessing it's part of a. Like I know another Zen center that is renamed it the loving kindness meditation to sort of like not sort of give it the status of a sutta. Uh huh. Interesting. Well, there is. I don't know. Metta means loving kindness.

[65:37]

Right. So it can be metta. But let's just take a quick look here. Sorry, you probably can't, I'm assuming you can't see what I'm doing. Karyana Metta Sutta, the Buddha's word, I think it's Amlita Nikaya 108. Yeah, I think so. Discourse, there's another one, the Discourse on the Advantages of Love and Kindness. I'll try to look into that. There's a link to, if you go to the Google Doc, there's a link to this access to Insider. You can just Google it. It does seem to be a Karaniya Mehta Sutta. It seems to exist. Well, I'll take some homework. Okay, great.

[66:37]

That'd be great. And you'll let us know. Okay, let me go back to our, can everybody see it again now? Okay, let's see who hasn't, Rich, have you, Did you? You did, right? Not yet. Why don't you go ahead and do a couple paragraphs here? Sure. Disciple of the noble ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom four solaces are found here and now. Suppose there is a hereafter, and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss. This is the first solace found by them. Suppose there is no hereafter and there's no fruit, no result of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world here, here and now free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound and myself.

[67:41]

This is the second solace found by them. Go ahead. Suppose evil results befall an evildoer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then how can ill results affect me who do no evil deed? This is the third solace found by them. Suppose evil results do not befall an evildoer. Then I see myself purified in any case. This is the fourth solace found by them. Okay, so let's pause there. So what do you think? I really like that he addresses, like, sometimes bad things don't happen to bad people, you know, and that's okay, too, right? Like, that's not changing the results of your actions, right? That's not changing your karma. Uh-huh. Yeah. Saying, well, you know, maybe there are karma, maybe there's, you know, he's not...

[68:46]

again he's not browbeating them with some doctrine about cause and effect here you know which he does in other sutras but he's saying you know he's giving them this okay it's kind of a logic puzzle or something you know if there's heaven you know then maybe good deeds will get me to heaven if there's no heaven then at least here and now good deeds keep me happy you know if there's karma if Evil results befall an evildoer. It's good not to do them. It's kind of Pascal's wager for Buddhism, right? Yes, yes. Exactly. Tell us about, I love Pascal's wager. Tell us what Pascal's wager is. So basically Pascal's wager was like, if you are betting on whether or not, you know, there's a God, right? He's Christianity. Like what's the worst that could happen if you bet on the existence of God and like, you know, live, live a godly life, right?

[69:48]

The worst thing that would happen is you have a good life and then you die. Versus if you, you know, if you say, well, God doesn't exist and you choose to live like an ungodly life, right? Like there's all kinds of negative repercussions that could result. There is in fact a God, you will go to hell. Yeah. It's like, you might as well bet that there's a God because if there isn't fine, nothing bad is going to happen. But if there is, it would be better to have bet on that side. Yeah, it's good. And it's very much like that. This one is. My daughter and believing in Santa Claus. She's kind of at that age of maybe I do, maybe I don't. What do I have to lose in a way, right? I'll be good. I might get the goodies. OK, let's we got it. We got 15 more minutes. So pretty much it. Then he's going to go over this in a couple of different ways. So let's go ahead and finish. Let's see. Julianne wanted to read a couple.

[70:50]

OK, is this start with the disciple of the noble ones? Yeah. The disciple. Who has such a hate free mind, such a malice free mind, such an undefiled mind and such a purified mind is one by whom here and now these four solaces are found. Right. The only thing I noticed, I just noticed that we lost greed. I wonder, you know, it's what kind of it was before we had the pattern of greed, hate and delusion. And now we've lost the greed, we've added hate and malice, and we have a purified mind. Anyway, that's interesting. Kind of vaguely. Okay. And Julian, why don't you do one more paragraph? The Kalamis. So it is, blessed one. So it is, sublime one. The disciple of the noble ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind is one by whom here and now four solaces are found.

[71:58]

Tim, I don't think you've read yet. Maybe you can read to the end. As far as on my screen, everybody else has their camera off. Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the discipline of death I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss. This is the first solace found by him. Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world here and now, free from hatred, free from madness, Safe and sound and happy, I keep myself. This is the second solace found by him. Suppose evil results befall an evildoer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then how can ill result affect me who do no one? This is the third solace found by him.

[73:03]

Suppose evil results do not befall an evildoer. then I see myself purified in any case. This is the fourth solace found by him. The disciple of the noble ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found. Okay, and why don't you just go ahead and take a stand. Sure, no problem. Marvelous... Venerable Sir, Marvelous Venerable Sir, if Venerable Sir, a person were to turn face upwards what is upside down, or to reveal what is hidden, or to point the way to one who is lost, or to carry a lamp in the darkness, so that those who have eyes can see forms, so has the Dhamma been set forth by the Blessed One. We, Venerable Sir, go to the Blessed One for refuge.

[74:06]

to the Dhamma for refuge, to the community of bhikkhus for refuge. Venerable sir, may the blessed one regard us as lay followers who have gone to him for refuge from this day. Great, okay. So the last paragraph has been, is kind of like my, what do I wanna say? I mean, I'm looking for sutras for this class that have this, same repeated ending which is like sort of the signal of having what we could think of as an enlightenment experience i think or an enlightenment or insight experience of insight um any other thoughts or comments in the last few minutes i'm going to stop the share now unless somebody doesn't wants to do something a little longer um this is sue oh hi I realize I haven't really looked at what solace is and what that means in life.

[75:14]

Well, it's kind of like refuge. I think it's sort of like refuge or things that, you know. Because I have to say, at this point, reading the man, the person who goes, who... does these deeds and finds solace. Uh-huh. You're not getting solace. You're not finding solace. It's an intellectual sort of mildly interested level. But that could change at any moment. Yeah, that's a good question. I'd like to know how other people feel about that. And I'm going to stop the share. What do you think? Do you find solace? Is this solace to you? The idea that, well, if there is, if there is a hereafter, if there is future lives, you know, it's worth it to, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to live my life with that in mind, you know, um, still worth living my life with that in mind.

[76:23]

Go ahead. I think that that's still worth it part is what seems more interesting to me. Um, The first part of all this is really seems to me to be about trying to figure out what's true. And the point was made by Sue and other people that used to be saying to go inward. And I think there's a very nice sort of parallel toward the end talking about the solaces. Maybe there's some pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but if there isn't, then I really like this line. keep myself um and so we get we get sort of self-knowledge up top and something like self-actualization or or even self-care uh-huh and i'm guessing i mean this popped into my mind i'm guessing that one of the things that these teachers it's sort of you know that these teachers that they heard before are saying is what's going to happen to you after you die maybe you know

[77:28]

They're saying, yeah, it's like, you know, it's like someone telling you that you're going to go to hell. That's what they've been working with is these people who've had these definitive answers about this. And so he's saying, look at it this way. We don't know what's going to happen, but, you know, Here's a way to look at that. Karen? Yeah, I see the concept of solace working here and just a sense of an actual immediate reward in the sense that when you're committing adultery and lying and all that kind of stuff, it makes your life really complicated. You know, and when you don't do those things, you have solace because your life is just less complicated. So I don't know. Uh-huh. More immediate.

[78:30]

Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Karen? I was thinking that whether or not the things he's offered at solace to me, the fact that what he's offering is solace is very, very sweet. It's like instead of. coming down with well what this is true and this isn't true it's sort of like here let's help the situation where you are which is this disturbance or this having gotten all this confusing messaging uh-huh and then he brings in this logic but again it's so kind it's kind logic yeah it's very it's not like cold hard what we think of cold hard logic right his his logic is always really kind and respect person and their intelligence you know i just find yeah i uh i wanted to show you just as another example like we've got a couple more minutes there's another um sutra which i need to quickly open we're just going to do the opening because it's it's interesting in that it's the same um damn where is it

[79:48]

Oh, here. Almost a little bit like the same question, but it's from two Brahmins. And I'm just wondering if that's part of differently, like a kind of class consciousness or something. So I'm going to share the screen again. And this is just this sort of question that they have, and then the Buddha's response is all we have here. Let's go ahead and read it myself. So this is the Brahmana Sutta to two Brahmans. Then two Brahman cosmologists went to the Blessed One and on arrival exchanged courteous greetings with them. After an exchange of friendly greetings and courtesies, they sat to one side. As they were sitting there, they said to the Blessed One, Puranakasapa, all-knowing, all-seeing, claims exhaustive knowledge and vision, he says, Whether I'm standing or walking, awake or asleep, continual unflagging knowledge and vision is established within me.

[80:53]

He says, I dwell with infinite knowledge, knowing and seeing the finite cosmos. The all-knowing, all-seeing also claims exhaustive knowledge and vision. Whether I am standing or walking, awake or asleep, continual unflagging knowledge and vision is established within me. I dwell... with infinite knowledge, knowing and seeing the infinite cosmos of these knowledge, these two who contradict each other, which is telling the truth and which is lying. And so here's the Buddha's response. Enough Brahmins, put this question aside. I will teach you the Dharma. Listen and pay close attention. I will speak. So that's just... Answer everybody the same way. It is a slightly different question. I think the Kalamas really expressed their emotion about it. They were professional cosmologists.

[81:57]

And those two teachers that they referred to were a Buddha studied with before he finally said, none of this is working. And there are a number of, we're gonna do a sutra. This is the next week that is connected to the Nataputta. So we'll find out more about them. Okay, my dears, any left? Oh, wait, we've got our closing chat. Oh, my God. Closing chat. Okay, now I have to share that other screen. Is that it? So this is the four vows that we chant at the end of things, but this is Thich Nhat Hanh's translation, which I really like. And I just, by the way, I don't want to say I'm not trying to critique the chants that we always do, which are wonderful. I'm just doing it for a little refreshment, doing these different ones just as a sort of .

[83:01]

So, I mean, I would be fine if we want to do the cacophony for this. know just everybody on mute and say it the thing that you don't want to do is don't wait to try to go with somebody else just launch don't try to listen to someone else because then you'll always be lagging behind them so just launch okay However impermeable beings are, I vow to meet people with witness to those of interest. [...] However impermeable beings are, I vow to meet people with witness to Sojin would be so proud. Okay. Oops. Stop the show. Good night. Okay. Good night, everybody.

[84:02]

We're going to be talking about comma, which is this Hollywood for karma. Okay. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you.

[84:15]

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