Thank you, Yoni. Welcome, everyone. This is our first class on the Eightfold Path. And what we're going to do tonight, Susan and I will talk a little bit about different things we feel outline the eight these two elements right view and right thinking and then we'll be asking you for your ideas and questions points of view if you do have a question you can put it in the chat and then yoni will pass it along to us so there won't be any you know open chat for everyone as we as you know we don't do that anymore Okay, so just a reminder, a little business, if you weren't aware, we have changed the Saturday program, whether you're online or at the Zendo to 8.30.

[01:15]

We used to start at 8.40, but we have a little longer service, so that's when the first period of Zazim will start, 8.30. If you're coming to the Zendo, good idea to get there by 8.20. And then the work period, if you enjoy going to the work period, that is starting at 7.30. And you're free to join the work circle. Okay. So, go ahead and begin. And thank you for, you know, being on, showing us who, being on video, if you are. Okay, so I'm gonna start with a little summary. And some of this we already heard on Saturday from Jerry's talk. But this Eightfold Path, this was Buddha's second teaching, only his second teaching, so you could see how important it was.

[02:20]

This is outlined in the Pali Canon, which is in the Dhammapada. And of course the first one was the Four Noble Truths. He discovered life is about suffering, and we can describe suffering in many different ways, but he's giving us the steps to alleviate that suffering, dissatisfaction, however angst, however you see suffering. And it is in that fourth step of the Four Noble Truths is the path. It's really the path of freedom. Freedom from all our neurotic compulsions, as one of the teachers, Maureen Stewart used to call it. All those neurotic compulsions, that's what we can become free of in our mind.

[03:20]

So the first two that we're gonna be talking about is right view and right thinking. And they go hand in hand, so we're not, you know, doing right view and then right thinking necessarily. I'm just going to go back. But of course, so they're going to kind of blend in some ways. And Buddha really put right view first because from that, every other one of the steps stems from. It's just the most critical. You've got to have a view, a right view, because everything's based on views. And that's the way we come to understand our actions, our words, our thoughts. It's just foundational to our practice. And these two steps are called the wisdom path. Probably the other teachers will describe the other paths.

[04:25]

There's the path of... meditation and there's the path of ethics. But this is the wisdom path because it's from getting the right view, cultivating that right view, is really how we begin to understand the way things really are. Things as they are. We'll probably be saying that several times because to me that's the crux of this. So I'm just going to read this quote that Jerry read because I just think it's so powerful. And this is the quote that Buddha said on the mountain when he was delivering this talk, his second talk, teaching. Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view.

[05:28]

the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. And he goes on. For one of right view, Bhikkhus, right intention springs up. He's calling it intention, but it's also thinking. And then when one of right intention, for one of right intention, right speech springs up, and so on and so forth. He goes through each step. all stemming from right view. And we wanted to start with talking a little bit about Zazen, that wonderful article that Susan found by Sojin Noshi. You might have thought, well, this is all about Zazen. Well, that is the core of our practice, and it's from there in Zazen that we begin to really look at our views and discover what what is right view what what am i thinking and when we're sitting zazen however we we sit you know we're holding that position that upright position that posture you know with everything's right right breathing we've got that open mind and we start to see

[06:57]

Where does this suffering or discomfort or dissatisfaction come from? And the longer we practice, you know, we start to learn to accept it and work with it. So the cushion or the practice of Zazam wherever you're sitting is just a model for life. It's just a model for life. We have pain, we have discomfort in our zazen posture, impatience, anger. We might have sorrow. Just everything that life gives us, joy, happiness, it is just like our life. And in that posture, we really learn to Accept it.

[07:58]

Just by sitting through that. So that acceptance is really our enlightenment. There's nothing other than that. That's enlightenment. Just sitting there and accepting it. And so, you know, in there, in Zazen II, we really learn not to discriminate between this pain and joy. Might at first, but then gradually, oh, that's pain, that's joy. And that is right view. No discrimination there. So we're learning to expand our view, open up. So Susan, would you like to add to that? Thanks, Carol. Yeah, just a couple things. Sometimes right view in the literature is put at the beginning of the 18th century. And sometimes it's put at the so-called ending of the list or the path.

[09:02]

I think that's because we do have some wisdom in order to come to practice. To actually start Zen practice and wisdom develops through and in practice. So we could think of the eightfold practice as a series of steps, but actually, I think that parts coexist. They're intertwined. You know, they're wound up and with each other and they're not practiced in some kind of numerical order, even though we often see them in a list. So the idea is they unfold together. And as practice deepens. I was thinking we could see them as kind of in a wheel because they work together like spokes, depending on each other. And the other thing is that Buddha emphasized the Eightfold Path because we're studying the Buddha Dharma and we're practicing with realizing ourself as being Buddha.

[10:19]

And I think that's really important that this very being is Buddha. And it takes a long time to really maybe believe that or experience that. Be able to say that. So now we wanted to just address the words themselves, say a little bit about the words. right view, right thinking to kind of open up our view of what those words mean. The word understanding is often substituted for view. And I was thinking that understanding kind of. Has more space than the word view. We can think of view as an opinion or perspective, but understanding includes maybe awareness, discernment, absorption of something or digesting of something, assimilation, maybe even some mastery, but it's not linear.

[11:38]

It's more open ended. always changing wider, kind of more process oriented. Anyhow, that's how I'm thinking about understanding, right understanding. And the word right, you know, in English, it has that connotation of meaning correct. But in our practice, that's not what it means. It's not anything about analyzing if we're morally right or wrong. It's kind of broader. Some words that I was thinking of is complete, thorough, maybe seen clearly, genuine, whole, unbiased, upright, wise. I really like complete. And I was thinking I want to suggest that we say something like right view is

[12:40]

Moving towards a more complete understanding. So for me, that kind of puts it in a flow like it's always moving. It's not static. It's not fixed. And it's definitely not something we have or we don't have. Because it's ever changing. So then if we say that we can't say. You know, that person has the right view and that person definitely doesn't. We can kind of ask ourselves, how do we realize completeness? What does it mean to see more clearly? What does it mean to see more completely? So it's more expansive. We can think of it as an ever-changing process. So moving towards a more complete understanding is the practice moment by moment.

[13:44]

So then maybe the goal and the practice of the very same thing. And then the word intention is often associated with thinking right thinking or resolve. So maybe an aspiration to act from the intention of not harming, for example. We're not talking about thinking in the way we always consider thinking, the way we like to think about thinking intellectually. And we're not analyzing. So instead, we're looking at how our attitude is transformed in Zen practice. how we make choices to replace our habit energy. And we do that by setting our intentions and following them as best we can and then noticing how that influences the attitude that we bring to our activities, our daily activities in our life.

[14:59]

So there's this kind of. I'm thinking of it as this kind of continuing relationship between attitude and intention, this right thinking. And I think that includes the growth of our confidence. So then that makes it possible for our response or our action to emerge. So all of these things kind of work together. Carol, do you want to add something to that? How you think about the words? Yeah, sure. Thank you for what you said. Well, a couple other things I could add is that thing about right attitude. I like that. I'd never thought of that being right thinking, right attitude, because And also, I read a little bit of Les Kaye talking about it, and he said he can find anything in our scriptures that really describes it as right attitude.

[16:12]

That fits so well for me. And that intention, really, and right attitude really encourages, I think, us to have a positive, you know, positive look on life. Even in spite of our difficulties. when we have that right attitude, and as you say, complete, that complete view. And I was reading a little bit about from Gil Fronsdale, and he sort of comes from it from a different point of view. He's saying, look at your goal. What is the goal you want in practice? We don't talk about goals, I know, but... we can say, what is it you want from practice? I mean, we're here, it's not an easy practice, so what are we doing this? What is it we want to gain from this? Or how do we want to feel? And so you start to look and see, and to see if those are happening through your right intention, right thinking.

[17:21]

You know, for example, maybe you want to be free of jealousy or You want to develop more patience or you want to have peace, peace and harmony in your life, some compassion, any of the things. So in your actions, when you look at your life, are these things occurring? Do you have the right intention? You know, recently I gave that talk about The ingredients that Desmond Tutu and Dalai Lama described about how to have a happy life, what makes happiness. And one of the things they identified is having some kind of meaning, having a meaningful life. So looking to see what is the purpose of your life.

[18:22]

So looking at it that way. What is the purpose of this practice? What is it we would like to experience out of doing this practice? This is kind of funny. Well, it feels odd, but Suzuki Roshi said, true practice should be established in delusion. Basically what he's saying, we have to know we're deluded. You look at your thoughts. Most of the time we're really deluded. It's really difficult not to be deluded. But the thing is, if we can recognize that, oh, there it goes again, that deluded thought, my neurotic thinking. I'm pretty sure we can just lighten up about that. I was reading a little bit about Suzuki Roshi, and he quoted Drogue, and he said, Practice should be established in our topsy-turvy idea.

[19:25]

Topsy-turvy. It should be established in our defilement or delusion. Same thing. It seems so the opposite of what I thought I was doing here. We should attain identity before we attain enlightenment. In other words, just to recognize we are deluded. That's waking up. Every time we realize, Oh my gosh, I can't believe I thought that was true or whatever. That's a moment of enlightenment, just that recognition. So I think that's all I have to say about that, those definitions. So do you want to present our first question? Yeah. Should I give a little overview first? Or, no, wait, about this. You mean the definitions? Oh, I think you did that, maybe.

[20:27]

What's our first question? What a right view and right thought. There you go. Well, I want to start with wrong thought. What is wrong thought? Then we can get into right thought. And I think wrong thought is when we're being pushed around by our karma and our habits. And we all do that. That's part of waking up to see that, how much of a grip they have on us. And in some reading, it says that all views are wrong. In fact, I think Tiktok Han talked about this. All views are wrong. Someone's desperately trying to get a hold of me. Anyway, yeah, all wrongs are viewed. Every view just can't include all views. You might look here, oh, okay, there it is. But then you look, oh no, there's another view.

[21:30]

You can't include every view. And so it's best just to have, we strive to have no view. Of course, we can't do that because we're humans, we have views. But again, we recognize these are our views. So our practice is really to let go of all these perceptions, these ideas, preconceptions, judgments. It's just, the list is endless. But that's why we practice. And one of the teachers said, one of the greatest delusions is a wrong view of self. Because we think we're solid, we're never going to change, but that is so not it. You know, some of us might have a narcissistic view. Some of us have a view of, well, we're not good enough. But at any rate, it's all revolving around us, and that is just simply not true.

[22:35]

Now, I'm just going to say a few things about right view. That was wrong view, right view. Well, everything, you talked about Susan, a complete view, realistic, complete view. And that, again, we're just seeing things as they really are, or as Suzuki Roshi said, as it is. And so we have to look and see, well, again, where do these ideas lead us? Are they giving us the things that we want in life? Do we have the harmony we're seeking for? or the patience, whatever it is you want. So we're going to have views. No way around it. We have preferences, we have views. But the thing is we just want to not grasp at them. You know, Buddha talked about this teaching.

[23:36]

He said, the world is mainly bound by approach, inclination, and grasping. So something comes to us and we either have an inclination for it, we want it, or we don't want it, we're inclined against it. So we're gonna grasp, either grasp for it or grasp away from it, have that aversion. And so that's just the way it is, but can we see the grasping for what it is? So right views are when we can let go of the grasping, not hold on to them. So views come up, we'd have to take a look at them. And I think we have to realize too, this is that everything is changing. You mentioned that Susan, everything, moment to moment.

[24:39]

We don't recognize that, but... Every moment something is changing. You know, I was thinking about the earth just spinning around and there we are on that ooh blah blah. Every second we're changing, we're moving in a different thing. So that change is happening moment to moment. And you can see that in Dogan's Mountains and Rivers Sutra, how he talks about mountains are moving. We don't see that, but it is in fact true. Okay, I think, Susan, let me turn it over to you. Oh, thanks, Carol. Well, you know, the perfect Zen statement is right view is no view. But, you know, of course, we have to go deeper than that if we're going to talk about it. So, you know, Katagiri Roshi, when he asked what is right,

[25:43]

He says that in Buddhism, Dharma is right. And he says Dharma is the essential nature of being. That makes it possible for all phenomena to exist. And he says in Sanskrit, right means to go along with or to go together. or to turn together. I like that one, to turn together. So he describes it as this state of being in which everything can live together or turn together, united. And he's quick to say, and this is beyond our ideas of right or wrong or good or bad. And I think this is really important. Suzuki, not Suzuki, Sojin Roshi used to say things as they are, right?

[26:49]

Or we hear suchness, thusness, seeing the essential nature or the empty nature of everything. And what that means is that reality is like way beyond our limited view, way beyond our limited vision. So what we do in our practice is we we appreciate what's right here. And we're not limited by that because we come to see that it's ever so small. It's really small. And so we make some kind of shift, I think, into how we see ourself inside our experience. You know, there's this kind of larger sense of what. this particular time or moment includes. There's so much more.

[27:50]

Right. And it's our training. It's all the repetition. It's how we follow the discipline, the forms. All of these move us into this shift. And it develops a kind of understanding that's based on experience. It's something that happens in the body through Zazen. So, you know, we can understand things as they are intellectually. We're really used to that through knowledge, but that only goes so far. And in our practice, this deeper understanding that we're getting at here with right view and right thinking, it's something like seeing deeply into the bodily experience of it, you know, that place where there aren't any words. We can't name it. We experience this in Zazen. You know, we do that by clearing the mind over and over again.

[28:51]

There's something kind of inside of us that brings us to practice every day, really. And this is expressed in practice. So. In the practice of Zazen, our intentions, our faith, our view. These all deepen over time and how we don't know. But we can begin to see this, this Zazen, what we're doing is actually flowing with the way things are. We get a sense of that. Sozin Roshi used to always say the whole world is doing Zazen. So it's kind of like that. Right. Over time. We come to have some experience of it that's not in the mind. And we get to see how important our actions are.

[29:52]

And I think that recognizing is also part of right view. We can see that when we engage in what we know to be wholesome or unwholesome actions, there's a result. And. That view just widens over time and changes over time along with conditions. And that's right view. It just grows and includes more. And so the more that we're able to see into true nature, the more we're able to respond right in the moment. I kind of think of it yesterday. I thought of. pruning like a really big overgrown tree that hasn't been pruned in years. It's just full of, it's a mess. It's full of all these branches and you can't see any light out.

[30:55]

And as you start taking out the branches, you know, in the wild growth, you start seeing more. There's air around the tree, you know, it's clear, it's fresh. You know, it can breathe the mold or the disease that's there. It kind of loses its footing. So it's fresh. It has this lighter feeling. It's not burdened anymore, you know, and you can't just do it once. That's the thing. It's going to get all overgrown again. So that's just like our practice. You know, you have to keep at it. Daily Zazen. There's never really an end until a tree dies. So in our practice, we start with our own suffering. You know, we see the ways that we suffer. And over time, I think we just start seeing how much deep suffering there is in the world, all over the world, and we start including it.

[32:00]

That space for inclusion just grows. You know, we don't push it away. Norman Fisher says that at some point, no suffering surprises us. You know, that just kind of stopped me when I read that. No suffering stops us. It doesn't surprise us. So there's this shift to going deeper than the usual way that we look at things. We start investigating. We see more. We see that the cause of suffering is our clinging. And then we see all the extra things that we pile on to make more suffering. But at some point, we also see that we could stop doing that. So all of this is on the path of right view. And Zazen kind of shows us that way. It shows us that we can give ourselves, you know, kind of wholeheartedly to our life.

[33:08]

without clinging. So every person can do this. And then we see how connected we are. We start letting go of the ideas that we have. The self-centered ways and habits that we have. And I think as we practice this way, we we see how we can let go kind of continuously. There's no end to that, really. Sojin Roshi says that We limit our life view and we identify only with the body and the mind. But if we identify with life itself, you know, the life process and life all around us, then there's less of a problem. So he says that we learn that wherever we are, like whatever form we're in, whatever we're doing, it's OK. That is right view. And then the last thing is I was thinking, you know, as we move towards this kind of understanding, I think right view opens up a lot of creativity and curiosity and humor because it's not so restricted.

[34:33]

You know, there's lightness. And as I thought about this, I thought of. This story many, many years ago, my husband Victor and I were walking in Tibet. It was a time when you could go there when on your own. And we were in this small village and these people in the village were selling their wares on the side of the street. They had little blankets out and there were maybe half a dozen people with, you know, a bunch of stuff on blankets as we walked down the street. And we came to this man, this older man, and he had a bunch of stuff on a blanket. And in the middle of the blanket, he had this huge conch shell, huge. And, you know, of course, Tibet was once long ago an ocean, but most people in Tibet have never seen an ocean right at that time. So I picked up the conch shell and I put it to my ear to listen to it.

[35:37]

in the way that we're taught as children, you know, listen to the ocean in the shell. And he started like, you know, he was so perplexed. He got all, you know, what's she doing? You know, why does she have it up to her to her ear? And I said something stupid, like, haven't you ever listened to the ocean in a conch shell? And I passed it to him. And he put it to his ear and he listened. And he just roared. He started laughing and smiling. And all of a sudden, all these people were gathered around the blanket, passing the shell from one person to one, put it up to the ear and listen to it and just laughing out loud and so joyous. And I thought, you know, as I thought about this yesterday, I thought, what is right view? What were they hearing? What was I hearing? How do we know what right view is? We really just don't know, do we? But it's it's somehow inclusive.

[36:40]

Right. So Carol and I want to stop now after this first question and ask you if you have some thoughts about right view and right thought or questions. So comments or questions. And you can raise your digital hand or you could put a question in the chat box. Susan, I'm sending you messages that I'm receiving in the chat. Just a heads up. Oh, yeah. OK. So there's a question. From Ross. And one from Jim Herb. So here we go. If no suffering surprises us.

[37:44]

Then how do we avoid becoming numb to it? Well, I don't think we should avoid anything, actually. Actually, a better way of saying it is that if nothing surprises us, then everything just seems sort of flat. It's like we have a response. So when I heard you repeating Norman's teaching that. We're not surprised by it. I think it could be, oh, it's just suffering. We don't want to have that attitude. That was really my question. I apologize for it. Well, that's okay, but don't you think he means exactly the opposite, that, you know, we're open to it so it doesn't surprise us? I don't think he means, oh, it's no big deal. I think he means it's a huge deal, and we're willing to open to it.

[38:45]

Yeah. It reminds me of Suzuki Roshi's teaching, if you want to know suffering, start sitting. And he didn't distinguish between one's own suffering or seeing the suffering in the world, but I feel it deeply here and out there. Thank you. Yeah, thanks. And Jim, is right view something we move in and out of? You want to say something about that, Carol? Unmute yourself, Carol. Thank you. Yeah, Jim, in my view, I think it is something we go in and out of. Just as we go in and out of feeling good, not feeling good, pain, joy, it's the same with right view.

[39:51]

Because we're going to talk about more of this, but, you know, when we're caught up in... karmic reactions. So I think we do. But again, as we practice and as we do zazen, our practice does strengthen. And I think our right view, we're able to see things more clearly and not be fooled, not be fooled by things. Step back, take a moment, see it. You know, what am I holding on to a view here? Is this a fixed view that I'm holding on to? And, you know, asking ourselves questions about that. Susan, would you like to add anything to that? Well, I was going to ask Jim, kind of what's your experience of that yourself? I think it is something we move in and out of.

[40:56]

I'm always struck by the... miracle of moving back into it like what is it that brings us back in and practice i think does give us some habit but even the very first time we moved into right view how did we get there so it could even be that it's always there you know always in the background and that it moves to the foreground of our you know our understanding i don't know i've been wondering about that you know, that it's always there, but we're just not always aware of it. Thank you. I'm just going to end. Sometimes it seems almost like the longer I practice, I become less sure. In other words, just more questioning, things that... I've held onto so tightly, just starting to let it loose.

[41:58]

You know, I'm not sure about this anymore. So I suppose that's just being willing to say, I don't know. I don't know. You know, in this culture, I think we particularly want to know, have an answer. And I've seen more and more, I really don't know. I see Nina has her hand up. You can hear me now. Yeah. Well, as Susan indicated, the words right seem very absolute. And I appreciate the rewording, like complete view, which

[43:01]

indicates a process of moving towards greater completeness by including more scope. I don't know that we ever get to right view, and then how would we know if we do? Because our knowledge is basically based on, you could say, our store consciousness. if you want to use that concept. We're always limited by our perceptions. Dignitas says all perception is deception. So I don't know that we ever know whether we're in, quote, right view or not. Yeah, I like what you're saying. I mean, I think that's. Right. It's good to say we don't know.

[44:07]

There's some mystery in it, right? We have a couple of more questions here and then we'll move to our next question and discussion. Let's see. Why does right view feel more difficult to attain? than not right view. Do you want to say something about that, Heather? Sure. This might be more philosophical. Right view takes some effort. For me, it takes some effort. I guess I've just always wondered why our natural default isn't the thing that takes less effort. Why don't we default to right view and then have to work to not have right view?

[45:14]

Well, you know, not to be ornery, but I do think that we do that. It's our intention to embrace right view and that it's not so hard. I mean, it does take effort. And that's what our practice is about, is effort. But, you know, that's a wonderful thing. And I think our, you know, Sojin used to say the reason we come to practice is to express the self. He didn't say the reason we come to practice is because we're suffering, which. You know, maybe we are, you know, we all have some pivotal, pivotal experience that brings us to practice. But underneath that, we want to express this bigger self. So. I think that is our our our go to place. That's my feeling. I just had a question for Heather.

[46:20]

Can you give an example? Oh. a right view that you have that would be difficult to go back to or keep? If I have an interaction with somebody that has friction to it, it's very easy to revert to the idea of my separate self being right. So there's a view, a defensive view might be heading towards separation. But the reality is we're not separated. But when someone has said or done something that I get irritated by, my default,

[47:23]

my sort of reptilian mind doesn't leap to, I'm so connected to you. It leaps in the opposite direction. And over time, I can train myself to come back to the view more readily or more quickly or more easily, but there's still effort to come back to that view that we're connected. It's not for me, the default. For me, it sounds like, and I do this myself, the ego has stepped forth. You know, the self. And that is one of the biggest things we have to work with. Sojin said that, didn't he? That's one of our biggest, that is the biggest thing, is our ego gets in the way. We want to be right. We want to be right. It's really hard to have a little humility.

[48:27]

So that does take time. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Thank you. There are other questions, but let's go on and we'll come back to the chat box. Does that sound good, Carol? Sure. So our next question is, How do I know my view is right? And what are the qualities of right view? So I was just going to say, I don't and this has been said, I don't think we ever know what is right because life is always changing. But. For me, asking questions seems like a good way to get at that. So some questions that kind of came to me are. Am I fully present to what I'm doing and how can I be fully present and how can I respond to what's happening?

[49:29]

How can I pay attention? How can I understand a view without getting stuck on a certain way of seeing things? How can I express a view in a way that isn't one sided or pressures others? How do I make room for all views, even if it looks like others aren't doing the same thing? So I kind of like to carry a question around like one of these, just posing the question. I'm not really trying to answer them, but just ask the questions and see what comes up. I'd say for me, an important quality of right view is. to try to respect other as self, like looking in the eyes of the other person and asking, how do I want to be treated if this is me? And another quality might be paying attention to bodily sensations, kind of always being aware of breath and posture and tension or ease.

[50:38]

You know, these are our signals that the view is kind of moving away from. or towards a more complete understanding. And then trusting in the practice seems key to me. You know, we need to trust and persevere to have determination. And then. We have to remember to be patient, like not to have expectations. So these are all kind of reminders. Sojin Roshi said that patience is about being where you are without trying to escape. So Zazen is our teacher, you know, about that, teaches us that lesson over and over again. And the third Paramita is patience or known as forbearance.

[51:41]

And Aiken Roshi says that it's not really about controlling impatience. Instead, it's like a virtue that appears. You know, so then there's that idea again, it just unfolds or emerges when there's. When we don't have hatred or aversion or ill will. So again, it's it's an attitude. It's not an intellectual understanding, but it's an attitude that's expressed from the awakening mind. It doesn't arise from outside, like through rules or guidelines that are imposed from the outside. So I think it's hard to wrap our mind around that. And that's where our trust in the practice is really important to just. practice diligently and to watch and observe what unfolds.

[52:45]

That's my feeling. Carol, what do you think? A couple little things to add. I like what you said about the body. I think the body is such a teacher, a great teacher, you know, just checking out. How does my body feel? You know, is it? I can feel it too when it's tight. Maybe my throat is tight. Shorter breath, clenched jaw. I know I'm not experiencing some kind of quality of right view. Something has gone askew. Rather when I feel just in harmony with everything, in harmony with the world and people around me, my body just feels so much more open and relaxed. So I think always going to the body, and where is my breath right now? Is it shallow? Is it deep? Is it short?

[53:47]

Long? And just scanning the body. We do this in Zazen, and so it's really good practice to do when we're with others, when we're maybe watching the news or something. Where is the body? Because the body really has the first, gives us the first message. You know, it's the body first, and then it goes to the mind to interpret it. So I really like using the body as that. And also, you talked a lot about the point of view, you know, what kind of the qualities on another side, you could just see, well, you know, how am I looking at life? Am I optimistic? Or am I pessimistic? How do I hold things? And do I feel worthy? Do I feel worthy to be here in this world? Is it a safe place? Is the world a safe place? And can I trust people?

[54:48]

So all those, how are we viewing life? You know, also shows up in the body. And so am I developing a kind and good-hearted presence? What kind of quality do I have? These things are just as important as our actions. How we are, just how we are in the world. Without speaking. It's not about talking. It's just our presence. Our presence. That we show up that way. Okay. I think that's... All I have to say about that. Well, should we take a couple more questions from the chat? There's so many good questions in the chat box. Please, let's do it. Let's take a couple and then go on to the next question.

[55:50]

Hope asks, what is right view in terms of grieving? Well, I can say something about that. In my mind, the right view is there is no view in grieving. It is whatever is coming up for you. The more you can just let whatever comes up come up, whether it's loss, pain, grief, just let it be there and not judge it. Because when you're grieving, you're going to experience all kinds of things. And I think the best thing is just to let it come. Yeah. Try to let go of your, I should be feeling this way or that.

[56:54]

Just let go of all that because there's no right or wrong view. It is just the view. whatever view is there. That's what I would say about grieving. Hope, did you want to add anything? Yeah, ask a question more about that. No, I guess not. Okay. Let's see. And we have a question from Laurie. How are right view and right thought things that we do together? Or how do we encourage each other in everyday ways? Well, do you want to say something about that, Laurie, in your own mind?

[57:56]

Excuse me. I guess I just flashed on. Oh, sorry. swallowed down the wrong throat. This time, you know, something was going on in BCC, some conflict, and I was trying to understand, and I think I sincerely wanted to understand, you know, and I had come up with, I concocted some ideas about what I thought was happening, what I thought was behind, you know, you try to think about what's behind what someone's doing or something. But I think there was some anxiety about like, I need to understand from a place of anxiety. And I went to Alan and I laid out my theory about what was happening. And he very gently said, well, yeah, but it's still just a story.

[58:56]

And I feel like that It stayed with me partly was that, like Carol was talking about, the feeling in your body when you're driven by anxiety to understand something and it's not a spacious, it's not spacious. And I think that for me is a mark of both right view and right understanding is that from inside myself, there's a certain spacious quality. And I think we can help each other in gentle ways, you know. It was just very gentle, what he said, you know. He didn't say, oh, you're just clinging to your view or something, anything like that. He goes, you know, it's still just a story, you know. So anyway, that's where I went. And I thought about other ways, you know, what are the ways that we just encourage each other in sangha, you know. Yeah, I like what you're saying, and it reminds me of... You know, Sojin used to say, you know, if somebody insults you or says something to you that you don't like, say thank you.

[60:04]

Because, you know, we're all Dharma brothers and Dharma sisters. And yes, conflicts come up. But underneath all that, there's a shared vision of sorts, you know, a shared understanding, an understanding that's deepening. And, you know, if if we feel someone wrongs us, we can turn it around and be kind. You know, it's not so hard to do. And it strengthens the relationship, I think, you know, and we all fall down. I mean, I think, you know. For me, as as I get older and. make so many mistakes. I think the point is just to stand back up again. He also said, you know, we don't focus on why we fall down. We focus on how we get back up again. And so we can do that with and for each other. And I think it it can inspire.

[61:09]

We can inspire each other in that way. Thank you for your question. OK, let's we have a couple more, but let's go to the next. I'm just going to add one last thing to that. Oh, please. As best one can, not to judge whatever's coming your way, although, you know, the tendency would be to get defensive, right, if it's coming right at you. But again, remembering Alan's words, it is a story. It's their story. It's not about you. That's the big thing. Even if it's pointing at you, it's really not about you. And so to remember. This person's having a hard time. Can I give a little compassion? Okay. Let's see. So, Carol, I think you're up. How do we practice with right view and right thought?

[62:10]

Oh, I see. Our questions. Yeah. Oh, okay. Well, I like what Thich Nhat Hanh said. If any of you had a chance to read the chapter, I just thought it was great about practicing with right view and right thought. And he gives these practices. The first one is always to ask, are you sure? You know, am I sure about this? in any situation. So this allows us to see what, maybe this is the story. Maybe I've got a story here. What's my perception here? To question everything. The first tendency I think is often to give an answer, right? Give an answer. And just to question, question ourselves, because so often it could just be coming from

[63:15]

old stuff that we've always said you know are always so sure about it and now everything's breaking up too when we're in practice you know old things are just we're breaking things up you don't feel it but i even i think all those little cells have got all that stuff packed in them they're actually breaking up too becoming more free if we practice and just breathe through things So just check in by asking. Or another question, is this true? I think we talked a little bit about that already. Is this true? I'm so convinced it's true, and maybe it's not. And the second practice he gives us, what am I doing? And this is just such a great mindfulness. Just stop. Whatever you're doing, what am I doing here? Whether you're out taking a walk or...

[64:18]

doing dishes or maybe in the middle of an argument, conversation, where am I? I know I have a tendency to daydream and just to stop, remind myself, whoa, where was I just then? So this becomes, you know, certainly develops our mindfulness, be right here. And the third one is, hello, have it energy, he says. Oh, boy, this is a big one, isn't it? Those habit energies, they like to stick around, those ones that really have us. And they have a lot of energy in them. Sometimes I don't even think it matters where they come from if we notice that we're doing that same thing over and over again. And it's not working. It's not working. We have to really see if we can start to loosen. let those things go, that are just not productive.

[65:21]

It's just done automatically. Just, you know, start by recognizing it. Oh, that's just an old habit I've always done. You know, I had one, when I was at Tosahara the first time in a practice period, this is about 11 years ago, and You know, we eat oreoche almost three times a day. So, you know, you have, I don't know if those of you have not eaten oreoche, but you have these different claws, claws to wrap your bowls and claws to wipe your bowls, like a dishcloth or a dish towel. You have a cloth to lay on your lap. It's a napkin. So anyway, I had washed them and I put them out on the line. I went to get them. And my lap cloth wasn't there. Oh, and in Tassajara, anything that happens, it is a big deal, right?

[66:26]

Because you're not centered on your life. You've let off that go. So now you've got to create problems. It's there in Tassajara, because that's what we do, create problems. And so I was, this is my big problem. I was so upset. Oh my God, I love those cloths. They're really good cloths. I got it at City Center, nice thick white cloths. So I went back to the dorm and I was telling my friend, my cloth was stolen. And she looked, she kind of just thought for a minute. She says, well, I could see how that could happen. There's all those cloths on the line. Now I could just see how a person could pick one up wrong. And I thought, God, I didn't even think of that. Well, that's a different point of view. Immediately thought of stolen. And then just a few weeks ago, sorry about your story, I wanted to get these tickets for The Lion King, you know, it's a live performance, I was gonna take my grandkids.

[67:27]

So I thought it'd be really high tech, I'll have the tickets sent to my phone. Well, it came, I think it came, I think I accepted it. But then I think I thought it was wrong. So, I don't know, I was so confused. But anyway, I go into the account, tickets weren't there. I can't tell you how much time I spent on the phone, looking in my account, worried about it. Oh, my God, these tickets were, oh, no. And this was, I mean, I lost actually some hours of sleep, embarrassed to say. But then one day I just thought, I'm just going to turn this around. What am I doing? I thought, remember, everybody's good nature at the heart of every person is goodness. And so I just started switching my attitude. Those tickets are there. It's okay. They're going to be all right. Everything's going to work out. I had to kind of work with myself because, you know, the old habit energy wanted to come back in, like someone stole those tickets.

[68:33]

So I was fighting that, you know, a little bit. Anyway, bottom line, we go to the theater. I tell her the story. She hands me a piece of paper. She says, here, you can get in on these. So it was just such a great lesson in just, This old habit, I don't know where stealing came from, but that was my story. And the last thing that he talks about is bodhicitta. And that's that. We all have it, that's why we're here. It's that way-seeking mind, that just that inmost request, as Suzuki Roshi called this, something is yearning in us to know ourselves. to know this big mind, and it's always there. I think he's talking that, you know, just to remember that's in us. Susan, you want to say something about how you practice with it?

[69:34]

Well, I like what you said about, you know, paying attention to what's right there, right in front of us. So that's to me, that's important. What's right in front of me and in our practice, like during machines, especially we practice lowering our eyes in Zen practice to support this practice of staying with what's right here. You know. We're aware of our surroundings, but we don't get distracted from what we're doing right here, right in the moment, right in front of us. And what's the very next thing to do? And where's the breath? And how's the posture? And how do I treat this person who may not like me or who I may not like? You know, I think those kind of questions can wake us up.

[70:37]

What is it? You know, what is this? Who is this? What's the larger picture? So that that helps me. And then the other thing I was going to say is we can stop using as much as we can those words me, myself, mine in our language. Of course, we have to use them, but we can kind of monitor how much we use those words. Personally, I find this really helpful. because it kind of opens up the situation more. It puts less focus on this person, this me. So I've been practicing for years in my job as a teacher, not saying I don't say my students, my class, my school, my job. I just don't do that anymore for the most part. What I noticed over time is that it really has helped me identify better what the task at hand is, you know, where the attention is needed instead of what I'm feeling or what I think I need or what I'm reading or, you know, it's so it kind of it closes the gap between what goes on in the mind and what a useful response might be.

[72:04]

kind of balances out the responsibility between the students and the teacher more. So I'm less focused on successes and failures or mistakes and more focused on the process. It's not that I'm not concerned about successes and failures, but I'm not. I'm not taking personal. responsibility, sole responsibility for those things. There's more focus on the process, which is always changing. So it's been for me a kind of lighter way to open up to this view that we're all doing this together. And I kind of think that helps in situations we find ourselves in most anywhere, actually. That's my input for that.

[73:07]

We have one more question. Carol, how about if we go through that and then we'll take the questions after that? Does that make sense? Sure. So our last question is, how do we distinguish between wholesome and unwholesome thoughts and activities? So, you know, when I really thought about this, I thought, We can usually see or feel something we can take note of that's in the direction of wholesome or unwholesome. I think deep down we know we get that feeling. You know, this isn't quite right or this isn't working. This is working. The more we pay attention, we know the experience in some kind of deep way of what's what we consider personally to be wholesome or unwholesome.

[74:11]

To me, it's a body experience. And the idea is not to turn away from it, like to notice it, you know, to really take note and not to berate ourselves if it's unwholesome, but just to take note, you know, not react. I remember Sojin Roshi said. Like when we see that there's something that we really want to say or we really want to do and we see that it's not appropriate. If we don't do it or we don't say it, then that's a moment of enlightened activity. You know, so we could kind of try that out, experiment with that in our lives. I mean. You know. It's kind of from this place where we make choices, I think, you know, we can make a practice of looking at ourself and being honest about habit energy and just acknowledging it. You know, that won't kill me.

[75:11]

That won't kill us. You know, don't push it away. And just see it for what it is and then make a change if we need to. And I think right view is always moving towards a more complete understanding. So it's not a shutting down. It's definitely not a berating. It's more, oh, look at this possibility. Like I could do it this way. I'm not an expert and I could do my best to. Practice wholeheartedly, even if I mess up, even if I fall down, you know. Our practice is more about, like, how do I want to stand back up again? And that's where we focus our energy and our training as Zen students. So wholesome, I guess we think of as healthy or sustaining or nourishing or simple.

[76:13]

Uplifting and. Wholesomeness kind of presents itself in activities that are nourishing, right? And wake us up or help us to express kindness or generosity. Staying with what's happening, even if it's pleasant or unpleasant. So I think Sashin is like a great time to and a great place to see how. Our wholesome Sashin activities support us on the path. And we can kind of adapt that Sashin schedule to our lives, you know, like always finding time for quiet, for nourishment, for rest. We can really use that schedule in our personal lives to create balance. I remember Sojin said Suzuki Roshi said he was amazed at how many activities typical American packs into a day.

[77:23]

But, you know, through Sashin and through Zen practice, we can kind of make choices that support more wholesome life or a life we can enjoy. We should really appreciate being alive and that that cultivates joy in our lives. in our lives. So an unwholesome is kind of like harmful, right? Leading to activities that cause suffering or craving or delusions or greed or jealousy. So they take us away from our true nature. And I think the more we practice, we can feel that it's an experience that we know in the body. I think right view helps us see that. The development of our understanding helps us see that, and from that place we make choices. Right thought is kind of bringing Buddha's intention or the attitude right there, that place from where we choose and act.

[78:33]

So that's what I'm thinking. What do you think, Carol? Well, I'm just going to take one aspect here. because I want to hear more from people. But I was thinking about starting with ourself and paying attention to what we're telling ourselves about ourselves. What am I telling myself about myself? Oh, I'm so great, or I am just not worthy. Just to, oh, I'm smart, I'm fast, or I'm not fast enough. Whatever it is, what's that self-talk? just become aware just start there to see am i are these wholesome thoughts or are they unwholesome and then to be remember these these are just thoughts these are thoughts i'm making these things up they're just made up and just coming back to that all the time and remembering these are just made up

[79:37]

So that's really all I want to say about that. I would love to hear some other questions or comments from people. We have just a little more time. Here's a question. Wholesome implies wholeness. Unwholesome feels divisive and separate and thus not whole. How do we include everything? Well, I guess what I would say is we don't try to do one or the other just knowing they're both going to be there. One moment we might have a wholesome thought, the next moment an unwholesome thought, not to try to shut anything out. Again, it's all about recognizing it. Recognizing. And we have the choice not to act on...

[80:41]

An unwholesome thought. So, yeah, I think we make room for everything. And then we have a choice about what we want to do, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. And see how it feels. How does it feel in the body? Again, I'm back to the body, but it's a great teacher. said the question, would they like to add anything to it? That was Ross. Do you want to say something about your experience of that? No, but thank you. I've said enough. It reminds me of Suzuki Roshi, you're okay as you are, and you can use some improvement. So I'm okay as I am with my unwholesome thoughts, and I can use some improvement. Well, like you said, Carol, so good. We don't have to act on it. It's like putting the two together and it's completely dynamic.

[81:47]

Thank you. Right. What it reminded me of was, Sojin said, when he walked outside the gate after long, like five or seven days, he became aware of perverse thoughts. And I remember just feeling like, oh my gosh, so relieved, like, you too? And yet, you know, it wasn't like he was going to go out and act on those. So it's like making room for everything is really what our practice is. Don't push anything away, right? And don't expect anything. I'd come out of sashim thinking I'm going to be so high, and then I'd be mad about something. I was blown away. What happened? So don't expect. Just see what comes up. I think we got all the questions in the chat box.

[82:50]

Anybody else have a question before we wrap up? Questions or comments? How, you know, you see you might be able to practice with this. Lynn? Yeah, hello everyone. Hi. I really love Thich Nhat Hanh's framing of just being warm and loving towards your habitual thinking. And I find myself, I go for walks in the East Bay Hills a few days a week. And I find myself oftentimes... Just my mind will, you know, there's so many things that I often wish I was thinking about, you know, things that felt more meaningful in my friendships, my relationships, my spiritual life. But I often find myself thinking about work and how am I going to accomplish something or how am I going to present something?

[83:52]

How am I going to frame something? And I oftentimes find myself just trying to shift out of that. I'm like in the middle of the woods and how do I just... shift my thinking towards things that i'd rather be thinking about and i just found that advice very helpful to be to not try to stop it but to be warm and friendly towards that certain habitual thinking that i have but i was really curious to hear from other people um you know what they do when they find themselves having a tendency to for their mind to be kind of running around on one thing and how to shift that. I like the way you frame that. Would anyone like to say how they work with it? Having that, how do they respond to that or change? Mia? Amira? Sorry.

[84:54]

Hi. Sometimes I have thoughts that are unpleasant and repetitive and causing me suffering, unhappiness. And what I do sometimes is I recite a mantra. So just the basic mantra that we all know, of course, you could do your own. You know, I just go, oh mani padmi hum, oh mani padmi hum, and just keep saying that. And it like chases away. those negative thoughts. I think that's a wise action. Thank you so much for saying that. Action. Thank you, Mira. Evan. Well, for me, I just try to come back to the physical place where I am. Like, especially it's easier for me to do if I'm like out walking and

[85:57]

nature just to really be present with everything around me like the sounds and the smells and the sights and you know just come back to that and it it's the same if I'm not in nature too it just takes a little bit more a little more effort sometimes thank you Ken Actually, Katie. Oh, hi, Katie. Sorry. And I'm very dark. Sorry about that. I find that it's a balance. Sometimes my brain is running around about work because there's something I need to address. And, you know, there's just, you know, with having to be disciplined at work and not have my reactions, you know, there could be something

[87:01]

unprocessed for example or just something that and it's just this this balance between not being so caught up in it or like being connected to my body and and but also not necessarily totally pushing it away and reacting against it um so skillful action hard to say thank you You know, I think we're going to have to wrap up. Okay. Before we do, I just want to read something from our class coordinator. The class next week, September 22, is going to be on right mindfulness, right concentration. And that's going to be led by Ron Nestor and Luminous Heart, Penelope Thompson. So this is chapters 11 and 15 in Thich Nhat Hanh's book, Heart of Being. And then there's other additional reading, and those have been put on the listserv.

[88:09]

And you can email Andrea Ryushin at andrea.thatch at gmail. If you're not on the listserv, then you need to contact me. in order to receive those materials. Would we like to say the four vowels to end the class? Uh-huh. Okay. Beings are numberless. I don't mind everybody chatting with me. Beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Illusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them.

[89:11]

Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. Thanks everyone for coming. Thank you everyone.

[89:26]

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