Unsurpassed, penetrating, and perfect karma is rarely met with even than a hundred thousand million times. Having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept, I vow to taste the truth of the Chattagata's words. Good morning, everybody. Good morning. Special good morning to Ellen Webb. Ellen was born and raised in Berkeley and has been a dancer, choreographer, and teacher for most of her life. She founded the Ellen Webb Dance Company in New York City in 1979 and continued to choreograph and perform with her company after she moved in 1984. She lived with her husband in Oakland, where they raised their two children.

[01:06]

Ellen began her Zen practice with Joko Beck and Diane Rossetto at the Bay Zen Center in 1992. In 2002, she began practicing at BCC. Lay ordination from Soja Roshi in 2010 and was the Shuso in 2018. Her Dharma name is Maiko Kaishin, Dancing Light, Open Heart. Thank you, Russ. You're welcome. How's the sound? I don't think it's on. It's on the top or the bottom? On the top. How's that? Yeah. So, good morning team. I think almost everybody here, but there's a few new people. So I'll just say that this is the last Saturday program of our practice period.

[02:15]

And next Wednesday, we begin our five, which concludes our practice period. And during the practice period, we've been reading and studying as Asanda. a book by our founding abbot and teacher, Sojin Gatesman, called Seeing One Thing Through. And the book includes a short memoir and many lectures, certainly not all of his lectures, but many lectures that Sojin gave throughout the years. And when I think of the book, I think of Sojin and I think of him as a very down-to-earth teacher. So in the book there's very practical sections about just how to sit zanthana and then more lofty discussions of Buddhist teachings and philosophy.

[03:27]

But the emphasis always is on zazen and our daily practice and kind of the effort to connect the teachings to the practice that we do every day so that we actually experience them and they become real and tangible in our own experience and he emphasized that and over. So the lecture I'm going to talk about today, it's one of his lectures, is called Responding to Conditions. And Sojin starts his lecture, and I'll start my talk, Koan. And it's a short Koan, and really just a quote from a

[04:30]

9th century Chinese teacher named Yunmin. And Yunmin was well known and even well known to us because he founded one of the five schools of Zen. He's not one of our direct ancestors. He's not one of the names we chant in the mornings, but he started the Yunmin five schools, which he had a lot of successors and, you know, teachers that went out in the world, but this young men's school did not survive for too long. I think about maybe two centuries or something. I think it merged, I could be wrong about this, kind of. But we know him in part because he appears in many koans, and in all the koan collections that we frequently study.

[05:37]

The Book of Serenity, the Blue Cliff, and the Mumon Khan. The Yanman koan that comes to my mind most often is one from the Blue Cliff record, and it's again quite a short koan, and it ends with the words, his words, every day, And that koan comes to me quite often. But this koan today is from the Muman Khan, and it's not one that I've really been familiar with before. It's number 16. And so, which again is just a quote from Yanman. And the quote is, see how vast and wide the world is. Why at the sound of the bell do the monks put on their robes and go to the meditation hall?

[06:39]

See how vast and wide the world is. Why at the sound of the bell do the monks put on their robes and go to the meditation hall? takes a very straightforward approach to this koan and basically asks, why are we here? Why did we choose to come here? But like all koans, Wadi opined on this one. And I'm just going to read a quote that I just happen to like from Yamada Roshi. And Yamada Roshi was... from the Rinzai school, and he's fairly contemporary. He's not alive, but he's fairly contemporary. You know, the Rinzai school talks a lot more about enlightenment than we do in the Soto school.

[07:46]

And it also tends to be very energetic, and that's what I like about this quote. So this quote is, and this is about this koan, but why? Ah, this why. It is a wonderful charm. The magic talisman that brings the Zen student to enlightenment. I just really like that quote. So, back to Sojin. The first approach which is, when there are so many other things to do in the world, why do we come here? Why do we drag ourselves out of bed, five in the morning, 4 in the morning, or later maybe, and get yourself to the Zen Center. Why do you do this? Why do you choose this? Why not go for Ike and Jilton? Why not take an interesting class or a workshop or practice something else, like a guitar?

[08:57]

So I'll be back for a moment. to what first brought me to the Berkley Zen Center. I know there's a couple of you really who just came this morning. But some of us, it was a long time ago. And so that question of what drew you? You know, we've We often have these Monday morning talks where people really talk about how they came to this practice. And so we've heard, you know, many reasons. There's probably as many who are here or are on Zoom. You know, maybe it was that you were going through a kind of intense period of suffering and you thought you might find an answer here. You know, lots of people come because they're speaking

[09:59]

And, you know, of course there's other reasons. Maybe a friend brought you. Actually, a friend brought me, and I think that friend is on Zoom. Ron Nestor brought me, you know, probably when we were teenagers. He was here, and I was, and I think I told that story before. It didn't endear me to the Berkley's incentive. If I have time, I'll tell you that story. And I didn't come back for a long time. You know, also, and I think this is true for a lot of people, maybe you've read a book or heard a talk somewhere or in college and something about it struck you. It resonated with you. was a long time ago and stayed in your mind.

[11:02]

I actually read Zen Mind Beginner's Mind probably when I was 25 and I didn't understand it really at all. I really could not say I understood anything but as I said it somehow and I went back to it fairly regularly even though I wasn't sitting or anything, or even didn't know much more about Buddhism. But, you know, something about it, for me, seemed true. And there weren't too many things I could actually say that about. So... Sojin says that whatever brought us here and this is a quote he says that we are here is a pretty good indication that we understand something that something has spoken to us that somehow we know that something we want is here and not somewhere else um

[12:25]

Sojin very frequently in his talks told the story of his first sesshin. And most of us know it, but I'll just remind us. He had, I think, been practicing in the mornings with Suzuki Roshi. I don't really know why he started doing that. Maybe Liz, you know that, but I don't know why he started doing that. When he went to his first session, he was sort of in agony. It was physically, I think, very difficult for him. He was in a lot of pain. But also, you know, just the experience was kind of excruciating. And somewhere late in the morning, he got up and he took a long walk around San Francisco. And he got to the marina and he looked around and he just realized that he needed to go back, that there was nowhere else he wanted to be or that he could be.

[13:44]

I mean, wanted is too strong a word, but he went back. I think in the memoir, it tells a story, and I think Suzuki Boshi said, oh, and, you know, the rest is history. Again, another quote from Sutton. In Zazen, we meet ourselves in a way we cannot any other. So how do we meet ourselves in this way? Buddhist teachings can make sense. I mean, they really can, you know, sort of the intellectual part of it is pretty straightforward in some ways.

[14:53]

But to actually or to feel them in our kind of core or our center, or as Sojin says, in our pores, is really different. It's a different way of knowing them or understanding them. Teachings of, say, how the ego arises from desire and self-clinging, you know that? can make sense, even if you don't practice, or the teaching of impermanence also. You know, these are things that, you know, it's not hard to grasp them in our minds, but to actually feel them in our body, to feel the flow or the impermanence in our body is different. And, you know, Sojin emphasizes, you know, he says,

[16:02]

You know, knowing it in our mind is like having a picture of it, a picture book. And having it in our body is just a completely different thing. But we know, all of us, I think, that Zazen can be very uncomfortable, painful, boring. You know, I could go on. We can get irritable and certainly, I think, wonder why we are doing or getting anywhere or getting anything out of it. And our normal reaction to a situation where we're feeling all this stuff is to get out of it, to do something better, to make ourselves comfortable in whatever way we can. We react and it's just...

[17:02]

built into us. We all do it. And we all do it now. I do it still. But just imagine that you're sitting in Zazen and you have it. Normally, you would just scratch it. But when we're sitting, we usually don't. What is that about? We notice the sensation, the urge or the desire to stretch, but we don't act on it. Dogen says, Zazen is the Dharma gate of ease and joy. In the beginning, that sounds pretty weird. But Sojin said that if you think Sazen is uncomfortable, you should look at how difficult life can be.

[18:12]

Life can be joyful, but it can be hard, very hard. Sojin said, Sazen is Dogen's comfortable way. How can we be comfortable and accept what comes up in Sazen? and in our lives. Our practice is a practice of non-discrimination. We sit with what comes up, our thoughts, our feelings, our physical sensations, or we can not like them. But we start to see what's happening is just What's happening? Mostly, we try not to shift or move to get more comfortable.

[19:15]

We accept things as they is, as Suzuki or she would say. We open ourselves and don't push anything away. This is Logan's comfortable way. So, as I said, Sojin often connected the lofty and the nitty-gritty, the down-to-earth, And he gave this lecture in a one-day sitting at which apparently almost everyone was late. And he didn't scold, but he gently admonished. And he said, our religion is related to our effort. I'd be on top. and our effort is connected to our commitment. You know, if we chose to live in a monastery, a lot for us.

[20:21]

We could, you know, kind of count on the schedule and we would probably follow it. And that can be... a pretty attractive idea is when we're being pulled by the obligations and all the things that are available in our lives. It makes me think of a friend that I have, actually a number of you know, who decided to move to a monastery and has lived here for years now. I had this conversation with her, which was so surprising to me. You know, I am married, and I'm happily married, and I have two children, and I'm happy about that. And, you know, I feel lucky in my life to have had those things. And this woman said to me, as she was preparing to go to the monastery, she said, I feel so lucky I don't have a husband, and I don't have children.

[21:32]

And it just blew my mind. I was like, really? You feel lucky? And she was like, yeah, I feel really lucky. So we make different choices. All of us make choices, and we make them all the time. But our temple is a temple of lay practitioners. We all have responsibilities and opportunities. And we have to balance all of that. And it's hard. It does, I think, require simplifying our life somewhat, which can be very unappealing. I mean, you know, and that's partly our culture. There's kind of a culture of doing a lot and being busy and being fulfilled in that way that we have to turn away from a little bit. And it's a little painful. It's like, you know, there's an ice cream cone out there and we don't get it.

[22:35]

And, you know, during this practice period, at the beginning, we're asked to make a commitment to being here. I think the minimum maybe was three times a week, although I'm sure there were exceptions. And, you know, we were asked to, to times, evening or morning or on Zoom or not on Zoom, when we would commit to being here, to showing up and, you know, that kind of, you know, this is, you know, feelings of, you know, It's a beautiful day. Maybe I don't want to go to Zazen today. Maybe I should go for a walk with my sweetie. Or, you know, the opposite. This is a great day.

[23:36]

I want to go to Zazen. But all that feeling and being pulled by it, you know, kind of drops when you make a commitment and you show up. Well, it sort of drops. It might still be there, but we're sort of walking past it into the Zendo. And then you look and see what did this commitment do to your life? What did it do to the commitment? One thing about making a commitment like that is that it's sometimes good to talk to a teacher or a practice leader about the commitment you're making. I had small children and I had a that I was involved in, and Sojin was pretty familiar with my life for various reasons. You all know Sojin knew my mother, right? So, he knew a lot about what I was doing, and those upswellings of enthusiasm for my practice, which of course came and went over the years.

[24:48]

And I went into his docusan hunt, and I said, You know, I'm only coming three days of the week. I should come more, right? I should be here more. And he just looked at him with a gimlet eye. And he said, no, Ellen, don't come more. No. You know, your life is full enough. Don't add this. And he was, of course, completely right. But, you know, I needed to hear that from him. And Joko, Zen is making your life worse. Don't do it. So what are we doing here? Why do we count? So I would say that in some way, we're meeting our source or our center or our true nature. And it's something that happens kind of repetitively over and over.

[25:53]

And it's the repetition, the not being pulled around by our preferences, the touching the center or emptiness that appears when we're not caught up in our likes and dislikes and our story about ourselves. It's a slow process. Houghton calls it glacial. Three quarters of an inch a year. And, but powerful, like a glacier. Eventually, kind of our experience of touching something stays with us, not just in the zendo, but in our daily life, in our activity, all our activities. So you might ask, well, what happens to that grabby, self-centered, self-protective voice that speaks from our ego?

[27:09]

In my experience, it doesn't go away. But when I don't kind of pander to it, I don't react to every, you know, impulse. When I can sit patiently, that voice gets a little worn out, gets a little tired of trying to get my attention. Gives up a little. And so it's just enough to break free for a time, to have a little space to connect to something different. Again, what do we connect to? when it's not that small, grabby self. When we walk, we just walk. When we work, we work.

[28:13]

When we cook, we just let go of our endless self-sync. And gradually, very, very gradually. We start needing to make the world just the way we want it to be. Our life can just be life. No matter what happens, we can be comfortable with it. This is Dogen's comfortable way. This is a little longer quote from Sojin. I'll try to read it well. When you really through and through you, you'll realize there's nothing else. And then you'll realize what a great relief it is to be rid of the burden of our self.

[29:13]

Shakyamuni Buddha is always talking about laying down the burden of self. We have this weight on our shoulders. which is our self that we're carrying around. We carry this big sack of our self around, and it's quite heavy. When we can let that go, we will feel light and free to do anything. The benefit of this practice should be to help us to get rid of the burden of our self. That's the goal of practice. talk much about the goal of practice, so I like that he does it. And, you know, Sojin and, you know, especially Suzuki Roshi, if you listen to Suzuki Roshi's talks, he giggles all the way through them. It's just this kind of bubbling of kind of joy about all of this that, you know, it's very unserious.

[30:19]

I'm gonna... Just say one more thing. Sometimes people would ask Sojin for a practice, or he would give them a practice. And, you know, he had various things. And, you know, sometimes he suggested a meta practice or a practice of sending well-being, either to yourself or to others. maybe to others that you weren't feeling so kindly toward. But another one was a practice of gratitude. And that was just simply a practice of saying thank you, kind of to whatever happened in your day. So you might get up in the morning and have it be foggy and say thank you. And if it was sunny, you would say thank you. And if you got a letter from the IRS, you would say thank you.

[31:28]

And if, like me, your washing machine that was 17 years old stopped in the middle of its cycle, and you had to drag all that laundry out to your mind, and then think about what you were going to do next, you would say thank you. And you know, when I was doing that yesterday, un-American. You know, it's so much part of us to complain about that. You know, it just feels like just the right reaction, you know, to call somebody up and say, can't believe what happened, you know. But it's a very powerful practice of non-discrimination to say thank you. And maybe then every day is a good day. So I'm actually going to stop there. I will be happy to open this up to any kinds of questions or thoughts or contributions, expansions that people have, and we'll just proceed from there.

[32:52]

Colleen. I appreciate that. And I want to hear the story. Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's good. Ron, are you there? I hope you're there, because this is a story about Ron Nestor. And he was my friend when we were teenagers. And I had gone to college and come back. So I was, I think, 19 years old. He had moved into the Zen Center on... Dwight and he was very enthusiastic and he was probably 20 and fairly young and strong and so he brought me to the Zen Center. It was very very hot and I was wearing a sundress with very thin straps and we walked up slowly to the to the

[33:53]

you know, attic. And he showed me all around, showed me what he did. He showed me the, how do you pronounce that? Kurosaki stick? What is that stick? Kiyosaku. Kiyosaku stick. And, you know, apparently he had learned to use it. We don't use it anymore. I'll just forewarn you that we don't get to use that anymore. But what it is, kind of waking people up in Zazen by hitting them or slapping them on both shoulders, twice on both shoulders. And you know, usually in the Zendo, people are wearing either robes that are kind of padded, or at least something on their shoulders. And so the line gave me two pretty hefty slaps on both shoulders, and it really hurt. And, you know, I was thinking about this story, and I was thinking, the weirdest thing about it for me is I remember exactly what I was wearing.

[34:59]

Like, you know, this was like 50 years ago, but I remember, and of course I don't have it or anything, but somehow it imprinted itself, maybe literally. And anyway, it was not, we sort of thought this was a bunch of sadists. done with that for probably 20 years or a little bit more before I came back. So that's the story. I just have a quick follow-up, which is did your future experiences with The Wake Up Stick change at all or did it always remain? No, I loved it. It was great. Yeah, which was very welcome. Awesome. And I'm sorry we don't visit now, actually. So I have a question regarding, if Zen makes your life worse, Zen practice, stop it.

[36:01]

I heard some other teachers, Uchuyama talks about, you can tell your Zazen is going okay if you get along better with your family. And the question that rose in my mind was, they also have that saying, Zen is good for nothing. I think it's a little different, but you said Sojin talks about this thing being a glacial, glacial pace, where the effects are glacial. So how do we know that Zazen is making our life better or worse? There's definitely been times in my life where it's made it worse, but I had some sort of belief that I could make some adjustments, I could kind of figure it out, and I could feel my way into it. And if I would have just stopped because it made my life worse, whether my health or something else, then I feel like I would have shortchanged myself. So how do you know when it's making your life worse and how to keep going through a difficult situation? Well, Joe, I think we're really getting into the nitty gritty of what better and worse are, aren't we?

[37:10]

Yeah. I guess that's the question. What's better and worse and how do you know? Well, I'm trying to think about you as opposed to me, but it's hard, you know, for me, you know, I'll just say for me, there were times when, you know, it just, it was mostly about just, I just, it just felt like horrible to try to add one more thing. And, you know, you know, kind of slowly my shift turned, not just because people in my family grew up and stuff, but because I did simplify it. You know, if it was something about my health or, you know, I think an adjustment might be appropriate, you know.

[38:11]

It's one of those things, and I kind of used to hate this answer, but it's kind of... intuitive or you have to really touch yourself like you know people sit till their knees really are damaged I mean not so much here but you know that could happen you know and I feel like that's really kind of cutting off yourself from yourself so I think it's about this is really about connecting yourself to yourself and you know and then You know, there's what Sojin said. It's like, for some people, this is where we need ourselves. We have to come. Or we, you know, we really aren't clear about that, even if it's difficult. So I don't really have a good answer. No, that's all right. Like, I think Jo Kopech's response or her comment is very strong.

[39:12]

And I think it's meant to wake us up as opposed to being an absolute rule. Like, if this makes your life worse, stop it. Wake up and do something about it. What are you talking about worse? Investigate. Thank you. When you first spoke of the koan, the world is vast. expansive, I'm not sure of the exact words, but then the bell rings and the monks go to the meditation hall. The absolute and the relative, the absolute being. The world is huge and empty and expansive, and yet the bell rings, the relative comes in and we go to the Zen bell.

[40:19]

my interpretation of the koan. What do you think about it? I think that's your interpretation of the koan, and lots of other people's too. You're not alone. That's a really interesting interpretation, and there's lots of, I think it could be investigated in that. Or why do we do anything? Not just why do we go to the meditation hall, but that's the why I think that actually Amada was talking about. But Sojin didn't say that. No, but you know, we get to use these koans the way we want to. And this is, you know, this, you could, you know, think of it. That's the great thing about koans. You're not required to see it a certain way. Thanks, Ellen.

[41:24]

Yeah. I was intrigued at the end you were talking about this sort of freedom from self. In that moment, I put them the way they were all going, which would have been appropriate for moms, but I decided to put them put my thoughts back the way I was taught to. And maybe that's not even a form that's observed here, but it was such a, like, a server hesitating to do it this way. And it was such a, you know, wanton, you know, ego-driven move that it felt right in that moment, but now I can't stop. I'm wondering, like, what the, you know, what is the practice, sort of, the appropriate practice response to that, sort of, Well, first of all, I think, you know, I was thinking today when we were all, you know, kind of going through this ritual, really, that it's such an opportunity for just that that you're talking about.

[42:44]

People make mistakes. You know, we hate to make mistakes, and they're public, you know. Everybody sees them, or I saw yours. And I judged it. It's just such a great opportunity. I'll just tell you a story. This is a Sojin story, which is I didn't like criticism at all. And most of us don't like it. And when I was Doan, That was the afternoon when Sojan came. And he, and I did it for many years, like five or something, every Tuesday. He corrected me every time. Every time. Too loud, too soft. You know, not this, not that. Relentless. And every single time he did that. For the glacial part.

[43:47]

For like four and a half years, probably. My reaction was, I didn't do it. At least I didn't do it for very long. But I was, you know, oh, I had a headache. Oh, you told me last time it was too soft. Oh, you know, I just would go on and on in my head of like, why I shouldn't be criticized. And, you know, maybe four and a half years into it, I realized I could just You know? I don't know. It's just like, we're who we are. You know, we have our makeup. We have our reaction. And it just starts to get a little quieter. That's all. You know? Not always, you know? I actually copied my listeners this one where somebody got really, really, really angry at me. Doesn't happen too often.

[44:49]

And, um, You know, I just, for three days, it was like three days, you know? And then, you gotta know that about yourself. Feel quiet. Yoni. Hi Ellen. Thanks for your talk. Towards the end about being uniformly grateful is a way of having no preferences and So I kind of assume being uniformly anything is a way of having no preferences.

[45:58]

Uniformly complaining. Everything is a way of having no preferences, and I just sort of want to know what's the difference. I don't know about that. I'm not sure I agree with you on that one, Yoni. I think maybe complaining about everything would imply some preferences. How is it different from being uniformly grateful? Because if you're complaining, you're actually expressing your preference, right? I think when you say thank you, you're not really expressing a preference, in my experience. It's foggy up. If I wake up and it's foggy up, can I say, oh crap, it's foggy up. Just continue. My tire's flat. Am I expressing that preference?

[47:03]

I think so, but maybe you're not. I would be. I mean, I guess if it was something really good happened and I said, oh crap, this is awful. I don't know. Maybe rationally you're right. Somehow it wouldn't work well for me. I don't want to discourage you, I would suggest you try it. Yeah, I'll let you know how to go. Is there anything you'd like to say something? Doesn't have to be a question. It could be a criticism. Dean, did you have a question? I thought you were helping Yoni get that microphone.

[48:04]

Actually, it came up when you were talking about how Mel criticized you every time you were gone. So at that time, did you think he was a critical person for doing that? That's always been my question. Why was he doing that? Was it to make you get let go of your ego? of that sometimes, to break you down so you didn't have an ego? Or was he just a perfectionist? I do think he, I mean, from his side of it, I do think he was supporting me in being a good Doan. I do think that. I also think he may have gotten onto the fact that, you know, I gritted my teeth every time he did it. I will just tell a follow-up to that story, which is toward the end of his life when he was the Doshi and I was the dawn for Sashin, maybe for the first time, there was a part where he came up to bow and he was supposed to put his Zagu down.

[49:19]

And that was my cue that he would put the Zagu down, and he didn't put it down. And I missed my cue. And afterwards he came up to me and he said, you missed your cue. And I said, oh, but you didn't put your zagu down. And then we went off and did our things. And then later he came up to me and he said, I want to apologize. I didn't put my zaga down. And I said, I want to apologize for defending myself as usual. And so we have a good job. I think not defending yourself shows an enlightened mind that you don't have to defend your ego. So in that way, it's good training to just take it and thank you. Thank you. It's hard. It's not easy to do that.

[50:21]

Thank you. Thank you. Let's see. Dean, do you want to talk and then Marley? Okay, Marley. Thank you. Enjoyed this talk. I am still thinking about that koan story about right, if all this great big vastness, why? Why put on your robe and go practice? And I think what's coming up for me is I also don't know of any great big vastness that I experienced outside of practice or my life. Like you still have the, I don't know, that the day by day My life is what keeps being there. And so, yeah, maybe for now that's, I can't say if it's my answer or my question, right?

[51:29]

But I feel like it's a way to study your life. And I appreciate that being brought up. I think that the last thing I'll say is that you talk about adjusting schedules and commitments. And as we know, a lot of people got sick recently. And, you know, some of us, including me, have made decisions around that, right? I'm on Zoom and I didn't want to take the risk before doing so. And figuring out how to... Observe that commitment by breaking that commitment. Interesting question for me. That's great. It's totally great. Yeah. Anyway. Well, of course, I have forgotten exactly what I was going to say.

[52:33]

Oh, good. Yeah, it is good. Something new always comes in until I forget that. I do want to say thank you so much. This is such a refreshing talk. Oh, thank you. I just love Mel. And I just love his practical sort of to the point, get over it, move on way. And I feel like you've given me something. I have a friend who's really suffering deeply and I don't like it and I'm kind of mad at her because she's digging she's got that hole and she's her effort is going into making sure it's getting closer to the center of the earth I'm not happy about it so in here and in my head it's well Dean you know it's not even good getting mad about it and I'm sort of saying well Dean how do you think it feels to be me I can't get over it. So it's nice to sort of in the circle.

[53:41]

And also the glacial thing has to do with, I have total faith that the circle will, a little story when we were kids, something turns to butter running around. It's just gonna turn to butter. And I have complete faith in that. the glacier is really powerful, and it's really slow, and it's really there. Yeah, I would say you are a living proof. So there's someone on Zoom, I can't see, oh, Sue. Isn't that Sue? It is, with the hand up. Sue, you wanna ask a question? Nothing's happening. Possible? That is my hand that you're looking at?

[54:44]

Well, it would be fine if you asked the question. It wasn't your hand. Okay, so thank you very much for your talk. And the quote that you read touched me because why if there is why if we're living in the vastness, why would the bell ring and the monks put on their robes and come to sit? And I thought, well, it's because we're living in the vastness, but oftentimes we don't, we miss it. It's so focused on a problem or whatever. And we put on the robes and come and sit because we get to experience the vastness or at least, open ourselves to that lastness. So it's a way of, again, coming back what is that I, for one, get often so lost in my thinking, you know, and in my concerns, that I fail to see, whoa, look what's here, this magical world, this incredible, magical

[56:01]

world anyway that's what i thought that's very well said and thank you very much

[56:10]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_86.55