Good evening. It's so good to see you all here in the community room at Berkeley Zen Center and those of you on Zoom. And let us begin with about five minutes of Zazen. Oh oh [...]

[05:15]

Thank you. . . Oh

[06:29]

I'll see you soon. Thank you. Good evening, everyone.

[08:04]

Welcome to the first of four classes on the Heart Sutra. Before I start, I'd like to turn it over to our class coordinator, Ryushin, who has a couple of announcements to make. Thanks, Karen. So welcome, everyone. I just wanted to ask people who signed up but did not receive any information from me about the class to be sure to send me your your email addresses so if you would just send me an email to andrea.thatch at gmail i'll be sure that you're on the mailing list for any future updates including the bibliography i also wanted to ask that everyone please be sure that you pay for the class Thanks to everyone. There are about half of the people who have already paid, which is really wonderful. Thank you very much. Our office manager appreciates when you can be timely about the payments and that's online through the generosity tab or through the mail slot in the door.

[09:13]

And importantly, make sure to note that it's for the Heart Sutra class. Thank you. And I guess finally I'd say, We're kind of at capacity in the community room and it's really wonderful to be with so many people here for a class at BCC post-COVID. And if more people want to come join us in person, let me know because we're at capacity here and we would move into the Zendo next week if that's the case. Thank you. Thanks, Ryushin. So I have a couple little announcements about the class. One is, I will talk for a little while and then I'll ask for questions. If you have a question that you feel urgent about, those online you can put it in the chat. So I will definitely see it and maybe the people in this room can just hold on to it for a short while.

[10:21]

We'll have a brief break at 8 o'clock, 5 or 10 minutes. And then I just want to say I'm really happy that most of you have your video cameras on, and I just have something to say. If you don't have your camera on and you're eating dinner, that's fine with me. It's dinner time, and I don't mind seeing people eating. So if that's what's preventing you from turning on your video, I'd rather want to see your dinner than just your name. And so about this class, most of the class will focus on the meaning of the Heart Sutra. Why is it so important? And why it's the most widely chanted of all the sutras all over the world.

[11:23]

And so why is it so important this sutra that has been condensed from the great body of Prajnaparamita sutras, the largest of which is 600 volumes. And what we're talking about is 25 lines on one sheet of paper. So why is that so important? I'm gonna give a little bit of the history. I have to say, I spoke to a few people before the class, and some people said they really wanted some history and context. And some people said, oh, please don't talk about the history, just get to the point. So I'm just gonna talk a little bit about the history and context. And I know there's some, well, some erudite geeks in the class who have studied this, so I hope you'll find it fulfilling.

[12:30]

So, what is this sutra about? Just to put it in a really simple one word, I'd say it's about Prajnaparamita. And Prajnaparamita means, among other things, perfect wisdom. I'm going to break that down. So there are many, there are quite a few versions of this. There's the 100,000 line version. There's a 25,000 line version. There's an 8,000 line. And I have read, Laurie Stanaki and I studied the Prajnaparamita in 8,000 lines. And it was fun, but it actually, to me, is kind of an embellishment of what we're really chanting here every day. So when I began studying with Sojin, I asked him why it was so important.

[13:41]

And I have to confess I had a hard time with it, all sorts of things about it. And he said to me, everything you ever wanted to know about Zen is in this Sutra, in these 25 lines. And the late scholar monk, Sheng Yen, said it's a total outline of the Dharma. So that's what we're talking about. And so I'm going to tell you a little bit about the background. So it is the best known of the thousands of scriptures in the Buddhist canon, although it hardly fills a page. And no one knows for sure who really composed it. When the Buddha was enlightened back in the, I guess it was the fifth century before the common era, after he got up from seven days under the Bodhi tree, he went for a walk and he met some of his former, some of the aesthetics that he had practiced with before.

[15:12]

who somehow hadn't awakened, and they were still searching, and the Buddha proclaimed that he had awakened, and there, right there, he gave his first talk, which was on the Four Noble Truths. So this is basic early Buddhism. The Four Noble Truths, the 12 links of the of conditioned co-arising, things like that. So that's what we study when we first study the Dharma. But what the Heart Sutra does is it turns everything we think we know onto its head. So as you're familiar with, from the Heart Sutra, there's a section where it says, no suffering, no origination. So, you know, like what's that about? Of course there's suffering, of course there's a cause.

[16:16]

So, that's what the Heart Sutra does. Now, according to Nagarjuna, who lived in the, I guess it was the second or third century of the Common Era, he said that these early scriptures originated in southern India and then spread west and then north. And at this particular time in history, it was a good time for this particular kingdom of Emperor Ashoka, where they spread easily. The teachings spread up north into what's now Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh. There was a very influential group of Buddhists there, and they were called the Sarvastavadans.

[17:22]

That's my effort at pronunciation. And they studied what is called the Abhidharma, which is the kind of a systemization of all the Buddhist tenets, which includes all those lists. You probably hear that in Buddhism, there are a lot of lists, you know, the five skandhas, the four noble truths, the 12 links, 18 emptinesses, things like that. So they compiled all this. And this teaching spread around India. However, this was also the early period of what we call the Mahayana. And you'll hear this word a lot, Mahayana translates into great vehicle.

[18:27]

And what that really means is that it's a vehicle that brings many people across. from here to the other shore. So, the Heart Sutra supposedly in its earliest appearance was in the form of a Chinese translation from the Sanskrit sometime between 200 and 250 of the Common Era. The really great translation happened in the late 7th century with 600 fascicles by a Chinese monk. Now I have a lot of information here about this stuff that I'm talking about, but honestly I don't really want to go through it.

[19:30]

I think it's dry. So For those of you who want to hear more and more of what I just said, I'm going to recommend some books. Okay, I can do that. The impermanence of my body is acting up right now. Oh, okay. So, what we're gonna do is take the sutra section by section.

[20:34]

And the first section that's really important is the title. When the Kokyo announces the Heart Sutra, They say, great wisdom beyond wisdom, heart sutra. Now, when I started practicing at Dwight Way, we didn't do that. We did it in Sanskrit. So the Kokyo always announced, Maha Prajna Paramita Hridaya Sutra. And I have to say that the best thing about it for me was listening to Ron Nestor be Kokyo. because he had a beautiful voice and he's here. Hi, Ron. And I had such a hard time with zazen and hard time with the words of the sutra, that that's what woke me up, was his voice announcing Maha Prajna Paramita Ridaya Sutra. So, what is that?

[21:38]

maha as you know means great so great sutra and prajna means prajnaparamita means profound wisdom or perfect wisdom So paramita, you're familiar probably with that term because we talk about the six paramitas. The six paramitas that we cultivate are the six perfections. These perfections are not good and bad. It's not right or wrong. It's whole. It's complete. It's egoless. So in cultivating these perfections, we're putting our own ego and self-centeredness aside. And that's what perfect really means.

[22:42]

So the six paramitas that we study, just to review, one is generosity, morality, patience, effort, meditation, and wisdom. So wisdom is prajna. Now, these paramitas, which are our life. This is living our life, the paramitas. These paramitas need direction and they need energy because you could be generous in the wrong way or morality can be wrong or effort. It might not be right effort. Through wisdom, that is what guides us. So I've heard it likened to a kind of like a rowboat, where there's six people paddling, or six moving the oars, and they're the six paramitas, but the one that's steering is prajnaparamita.

[23:54]

So, now, what does prajna mean? In Sanskrit, prajna is divided into two parts. There's pra, and that means before. And then there's nya, which means to know. So it really means before knowing. Prajna, before knowing. Now, interestingly, the Greeks came down with this word directly from eventually from the Sanskrit to the word prognosis, which I think is kind of funny because people love prognosis. We want to know everything. We want to know things before they happen.

[24:56]

I mean, we've got Hozon in the hospital and I'm getting calls from people saying, I want the prognosis, I want the prognosis. And truthfully, I've had to say, please, we don't know, and be patient, and try to live with not knowing. A lot of people didn't like that. But that's reality, you know? It's not something that you do for fun. That is the truth. We don't know. Is this not also a basic concept? Let me ask your question, get your question later because I asked people to hold on a little bit. So prognosis is what is right before us? What is the future course of events? So the Buddhists of ancient India called this prajna before knowledge.

[26:02]

And Suzuki Roshi called it beginner's mind. So I'm sure many of you out there are familiar with beginner's mind. And in Zen practice, understanding and knowledge are different things. Knowledge can refer to information, study, ideas, arguments, things like that. while understanding is different. And we know this also from some of the stories we hear. For example, the story of Bodhidharma, who went to China to meet with the emperor. And the emperor said to him, who are you? Maybe he didn't say it like that. Who is it before me?

[27:04]

And Bodhidharma replied, don't know. Don't know. Now that didn't go over well with the emperor. The emperor apparently wanted a lot of merit. You know, he was building Buddhist temples and things like that. But that was Bodhidharma's answer, don't know. So just continuing with the title. Kridaya, or heart. It means heart. And it means the most important point. It means mind essence, according to Aitken, Robert Aitken, Roshi. Mind essence. It means the center, the core. And sutra. Sutra generally means scripture. That's a broad translation.

[28:08]

And so that's the title. Other meanings of Prajnaparamita, which we're going to talk about over and over again, is wisdom gone to the other side. or wisdom gone to the other shore. We often talk about the world of suffering and samsaras being where we are now. And then we talk about nirvana or the end of suffering or realization being the opposite shore. Now there are a number of ways to understand that, but that's the kind of traditional way is crossing over wisdom gone to the other shore. So on this shore, we have all the realms that we live in.

[29:14]

The animal realm, the human realm, the hungry ghost realm, the realm of the gods. Most of us visit these realms. in our lives. We spent a little time here, a little time there. So we live chasing after things, avoiding things, or being ignorant. We basically live a life that's centered on ourselves. So in the book that I recommended called The Tiger's Cave, which I hope I have to say that's one of my favorite books and Sojin really recommended it. He loved that book. So Abbot Obora says about Prajnaparamita, the profound Prajnaparamita negates self.

[30:20]

In Zen, negation means to drop or to throw it all away. By this power of renouncing, the power of the knowledge of ultimate emptiness, we complete a training which carries us across to nirvana. And then Abbot O'Bora goes on to quote Dogen, who in the 13th century wrote, just discard and forget body and mind and throw them into the abode of the Buddha. Then following the movement of the grace of the Buddha, without use of force or fatiguing the mind, leave birth and death and be Buddha. Are there any questions or comments? You can raise your digital hand and I will call on you or if there's anyone in the room.

[31:29]

I see something in the chat. Let me just see if that's a question. I don't see a question. I see Julianne. I see your hand up. Go ahead. I just was wondering if you could repeat that quote one more time. Yes. This is from Abbott Obora. The profound Prajnaparamita negates self. In Zen, negation means to drop, to throw all away. By this power of renouncing, the power of the knowledge of ultimate emptiness, we complete a training which carries us across to Nirvana. And then he quotes Dogen as, quote, Just discard and forget body and mind and throw them into the abode of the Buddha.

[32:34]

Then following the movement of the grace of the Buddha, without use of force or fatiguing the mind, leave birth and death and be Buddha. And actually he goes on with a final line. This is the method of practice of the Bodhisattva Kanan. And we're gonna talk about Canon a little later. Are there any other, Arna, did you have your hand up? Yeah, it's just, I think I was getting carried away with my own interests, but anyway. Can you hear, actually? I'm gonna take this off. They're having trouble, you're gonna have to project from this room. But it's around the Sanskrit word that they use in the name of the sutra for heart. Can you say it again?

[33:37]

H-R-I-Y-D-A. Okay. So does that have, you know, in the Sino-Japanese Shin, you know, sometimes say heart, but it's really this heart-mind concept? Mm-hmm. Is that the same in the Sanskrit word, or are they more meaning, just like this connotation of core, like the main core of the teaching sutra? Well, in the Sanskrit, it means the kernel. The kernel, okay, like the main core of the teaching. Yes. Anybody else? Okay, well, I'm gonna go on. I found this interesting that Sheng Yen, who I referred to before, talked about why we chant sutras.

[34:49]

And I always thought, and it's true, that you chant sutras partly to learn the Dharma. because it's expounding the Dharma. I remember I was in Vietnam with Nancy about five years ago, and we went to a nunnery, a Buddhist nunnery, and it was a really beautiful place. The nuns made us this delicious meal, but we asked them, you know, what do you do all day? I'm just curious. So apparently they got up at three in the morning and they chanted for hours. They chanted Mahayana Sutras to learn the Dharma. And I'll just add, they chanted, well, I don't know about chant, they studied Marx and Leninism. So I'm imagining

[35:56]

Possibly that that was something they had to do to be able to practice and have these temples, but I'm not sure about that. But I thought that was interesting. But Sheng Yen says, it's okay if you don't understand the Heart Sutra or the sutras you're chanting. Just keep chanting it. It is a way to learn the Dharma, but if you don't understand it, don't worry, because chanting develops concentration. I remember Ryushan and I co-led a class on the Lotus Sutra, I don't know, 10 years ago maybe, and after we finished, it must have taken two years to get through the Lotus Sutra, But after we finished, we decided, why don't we chant the whole thing in one day?

[37:01]

And you know, it was like 350 pages. Small type with a lot of very long names and very elaborate descriptions of palaces and jewels and names of kings and monks and... So we chanted it in the Zendo. It took seven hours and 45 minutes. Now, she talked me into being Kokyo. I don't know how she got away with that, but I guess because she was the priest that she decided I was to be the Kokyo. But chanting for seven hours and 45 minutes, my whole body was tingling for, you know, many hours. So anyway. Karen? Mary or Libby has their hand raised.

[38:01]

Great. Hi, Mary. Hi, Karen. Thank you. Just a technical question. If the heart sutures are in the second or third common era, was that At the same time as Nagarjuna, did Nagarjuna base his work on the Heart Sutra? They were very close together. Nagarjuna... See, everything I've read about the history is a little vague. And the articles that I read by some of these scholars don't all agree. on when this actually really started. And that's partly why I was hesitant to really go into detail about it. But Nagarjuna, of course, I believe he lived around in the third century, third or fourth century.

[39:02]

But he was considered the most important Buddhist thinker after Shakyamuni Buddha. And so a lot of what we're going to talk about in this class is emptiness. And that's what he expounded upon. So in Nagarjuna's writings, his many verses on the middle way, they're about emptiness. Now being Indian, you know the Indian scholars had a particular style of discussing emptiness and was often in a kind of dialectical, argumentative style, you know, prove this, you know, not this, not that, not that, not, not that, you know, that kind of thing. When it got to China, it became more, less in a kind of elite, educated, scholarly group and more

[40:14]

with the kind of the peasantry and people who cooked and farmed and built houses and things like that. So you'll know that emptiness is talked about differently as it makes its way through different cultures. I've also heard that chanting sutras or mantras that is also like a mind protection. Yes. Actually, I think it's Red Pine. In the beginning of his book, he talks about 10 things that Prajnaparamita does. And it is protective, according to some.

[41:20]

So let's see what time it is. You know, it's a few minutes before eight. Why don't we take a short break now? Because then I'm going to go into the first paragraph of the sutra. So see you like at five after eight. How's that? Hello again.

[51:33]

Now that we've talked about the title, which I'm sure we're gonna talk about again, I wanna move on to the first section. And I asked you all to have the Heart Sutra out in front of you. And believe it or not, I forgot to bring mine, but I think I remember it. So it starts off, with Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva. When practicing deeply the Prajnaparamita, perceive that all five skandhas in their own being are empty. Now we could spend a lot of time talking about that. In fact, we could spend the whole four weeks talking about it, but I'll say a few things first. One is Avalokitesvara.

[52:37]

Avalokitesvara is one of the most important bodhisattva deities. Avalokitesvara, I'm going to talk about what the words mean in the name. Now, as many of you know, Avalokitesvara The gender varies. So we can use she, he, they, that's fine for Avalokiteshvara. Another name is Kanon and also the Japanese, in the Japanese Heart Sutra we say Kanji Zai. So I will talk about it. Subtle differences, but they all mean the same thing. So, Jizai, kan means to see or to observe.

[53:49]

And Jizai, me, is a translation of the Sanskrit word isvara, which means a person who can see freely without disruption. So Avalokiteshvara is one who is free from egocentricity and ignorance. One who sees things as they are without distortion by intellect, desire, or expectation. So this is our aspiration, this is our practice. To see without the distortion of me. That's like Dogen, dropping body and mind. Sojan always said that our practice is to drop self-centeredness. So, Kanzeon, same person or same figure means

[54:56]

one who hears the sounds of the world, or one who hears the cries of the world. Suffering usually has sounds, not always, but even if it's silent, it's still heard by Avalokiteshvara, the sound of suffering. And, Avalokiteshvara is often depicted as having 1,000 hands and each hand has an eye in it so that all those hands serve the purpose of easing the sufferings of the world, helping others, saving others. Frequently we chant kind of a supplication asking for help, asking for mercy.

[56:00]

So all those arms and eyes are aware of all the sufferings in the world. So Avalokiteshvara is the one teaching in this Heart Sutra and it's the only place in the vast Prajnaparamita sutras where he, she, they plays a role. So that's unique. And then the sutra goes on. Well, Avalokitesvara bodhisattva. So what is a bodhisattva? Well, there are really two kinds. Mostly we talk about bodhisattvas like us, where we're aspiring. We're practicing being a bodhisattva. We commit ourselves to helping others. We state our vows over and over again to save all beings.

[57:03]

But there's another kind of bodhisattva, which is kind of more a mythical figure. There are about 10 very important ones in Buddhism, like Mantra, Sri, Bodhisattva, and some other ones. But... Avalokiteshvara is not as ordinary as we are, but we aspire to that because we all have some of Avalokiteshvara within us. And also, Avalokiteshvara is addressing one of Buddha's main disciples, Shariputra, who's kind of an intellectual. He's known as a very, very advanced scholar and a wise person, but intellectual. So here you have Avalokiteshvara, this selfless being with deep, profound wisdom and compassion.

[58:11]

And he speaks, she speaks to Shariputra, who's still kind of in the world of being analytical, thinking about things, which I'm sure we can all relate to. So, okay, so, avalokitasvara bodhisattva, when practicing deeply the prajnaparamita. So this word practicing is really important. Sometimes, some translations say he was coursing in Prajnaparamita or abiding in Prajnaparamita. Practice is a moment-to-moment constant activity.

[59:12]

And as we say over and over again, It's not something that you get. You don't practice it and then get something that's yours. So practicing is basically without self. Coursing is just moment by moment practicing profound, complete wisdom. So how do we do that? Well, zazen. I'll just start with zazen because zazen is the way where we encounter prajna or before knowing. We sit down on our cushion.

[60:20]

We focus on our breath. And then before we know it, the mind is often running about something. I wish I were somewhere else. Is this gonna be a good zazen period or not? Am I accomplishing anything here? So the mind goes off and does what it does. And then we remember, oh, come back to the breath. coming back to the breath, perhaps you sense one breath, and then all of a sudden the mind goes off again, on probably the same thing it was on before. But then you say, you remind yourself, come back to the breath. Each time you drop your thoughts, it's dropping the self, and you come back to the breath.

[61:25]

And you get a sense over time of a gap. So you're not all thoughts or feelings. Actually, there's spaces between. So you let go of your thoughts, your attachment, We get very attached to our thoughts, whether we're disgusted by them or love them, it's still attachment. And when we come back, there's a space. It could be a space of a nanosecond or a space of a minute before the next thought arises. But what's important is this is before knowing. But this involves a lot of practice.

[62:27]

So, Avalokitesvara perceived that all five skandhas in their own being are empty and was saved from all suffering. So what happened there? Practicing zazen, we see the five skandhas arise. Now, if you're not familiar with what skandhas are, they are what makes us human. They're the parts of being a human being. So one skanda is form, which is usually the body. Okay, our body. Feelings, like our emotions. Anger, sadness, fear.

[63:34]

Perceptions. Something we call it formations, and that really means kind of mind constructions. And then consciousness, which is our awareness. Now, in the beginning of Buddhist thought, they knew about the skandhas. That was an old theory, okay? Back in the days of the Abhidharma, way before the Heart Sutra, as we know it now, there were these things, you know? My body. Feelings. But here the Heart Sutra is saying, Avalokiteshvara is saying that they're all empty of any true substance or any kind of independent existence.

[64:45]

I think that's the easiest way to put it. All these things have no independent existence. We're angry one moment, furious, repeating an argument with somebody that you've had over and over again and they still don't get it. An hour later, you're laughing about something else and you've completely forgotten the anger or who you're mad at and why. See? There's no inherent substance to feelings. And the body that we know of, this body, Is it the same as it was 20 years ago? So the body doesn't have a solid existence. It's changing all the time. And then the final bit of that particular stanza is

[65:58]

realizing that all five skandhas are empty of its own independent existence, was saved from all suffering, or released from suffering. So basically, practicing prajnaparamita, we let go of our self. sense of me and through that we see the impermanence and changeability of everything and we practice letting go of our attachments to the way things are attachment to not liking how things are so I think I'll stop with that little exposition and ask you I'd like to know how you relate to when you hear

[67:23]

Prajnaparamita, what does it mean to you? I'm asking for kind of a personal response. Of course you can ask a question too about what it might mean if I'm not clear. I'm happy to... go on, but I didn't want to just, I'd just like to hear from you. What kind of, what does Prajnaparamita mean to you? And when you hear it and you chant, what does it bring up? I mean, do you feel it's inspiring or confusing? I see Sue Oh, you have your hand up. Go ahead. To me, can you hear me okay?

[68:27]

I'm back here. Yes. It means, well, like, it's someplace I start off fresh each time. And I don't understand it. I don't come to it as if I do understand it. I look for an understanding to arise. And that's about it. Well, thank you. I appreciate that because it sounds like you're not attaching yourself to ideas about it. You're waiting to see. So thank you, Sue. Ron, did you have your hand up? He's unmuting himself. Yes. Well, to me, the important thing is that all of our constituents that make up each one of us are empty of any ego.

[69:36]

And what we usually in the Western world call ego. And the whole idea of myself and I'm going to get this and I'm not going to get that. And I like this and I don't like that. It's empty of when we practice the perfection of wisdom, we're practicing letting go of our ego. For me, that's what is most important. And my likes and my dislikes become secondary to what's actually happening in front of me. That's really well said. Thank you. Thank you. Is anyone, there are a few people online, but go ahead. Maria Theresa, just speak up so the people online can hear you. Okay, so you mentioned that prashna meant before knowing, before knowledge.

[70:39]

And then we talked about space, coming to a place of space, before knowing. I would know more about this space. What is this space that you're talking about and not knowing? Would you say more? Did you hear what Maria Theresa asked? Karen, can you summarize? I will summarize it. She would like to know more about the space that I was talking about when you practice Prajnaparamita, particularly during Zazen, when you come back to the breath and there's a gap. This is something that's very experiential. I think I might be doing a disservice by trying to explain too much.

[71:46]

You know, Sojin always said, don't explain anything, just point to it. So I think your question is important. But the only way to really know this is through practice. And Zazen is the perfect practice for it. It doesn't just happen during Zazen. But we awaken, we can awaken each moment. Dogen used to always say that we don't get, we don't practice in order to get enlightened. That practice and enlightenment are the same, or not the same, excuse me. That's not a good word. They're not different, practice and enlightenment.

[72:47]

Enlightenment is not a thing, okay? So what Dogen meant, I believe, is that you sit down, no matter what kind of mood you're in, you know, you may feel awful, and you can't stop, you just feel mentally terrible, and you sit down and you vow to come back, and be in the present moment and see what really is, and let go, just drop the ego. Like Ron said, it's very difficult to do, and it often doesn't happen for very long, but it is possible. And that is an awakening, even though it may go so fast that you hardly notice it. The more you practice the wider that space gets. I would say that from experience.

[73:49]

In some ways, practice is something, it's a training, practice is a training. I remember a teacher I had back in my Vipassana days, Joseph Goldstein, he used to say, people would ask him, well, aren't you supposed to follow your heart, not your breath? And he says, we don't follow our hearts, we train our hearts. When I'm ready to go to bed into that, oh. There, I muted that. So we're training our hearts. And The space opens and closes and opens and closes, but practice is really important.

[74:57]

Kabir, and then I'll go back to the screen. The difference between, or is there a difference between space and emptiness? Everything is emptiness. Right. Now. But it also is formed. Yes. One cannot exist without the other. Yes. You know, Sojin once told me, I said to him, is there anything that's unconditioned? Because there are references to, quote, the unconditioned. And he told me, only nirvana and space. are unconditioned. Now, I went back to him a couple of times because I wasn't sure what that meant. And I have to say, I don't want to explain it right now, but, and I don't know where he got that from, but it's in one of the books on the list.

[76:02]

One of the commentators actually says that it might be Kanzi, Edward Kanzi or DT Suzuki, who says that They're two unconditioned things because everything else co-arises out of conditions. So I'll get back to you in a minute. Hannah Mira? I'm very affected by your holding the concept Prajna Paramita so close. in your own experience. I think I hold it just a little bit farther away. Well, close and far. I think boundlessness, that nothing is separate.

[77:04]

Everything is totally interconnected with everything else, ourselves and the whole world. from far along forever and off into the future. There just is nothing. It's not completely affected and connected with everything else. So I think it's partly an understanding of the whole universe of reality. And that's what I've been holding on to. And I really appreciate how close you've got it to your own experience. Well, thank you. I really appreciate that word, boundlessness. I'm gonna go, I'll come to you in a minute, Rich. What is your name again? Jason. Jason, sorry. I actually have two questions.

[78:04]

Okay. I had one, but after you spoke, it was kind of a follow-up to what you said about, what you discussed about space and nirvana so the space that you talked about here is like void or what in what concept is space you're talking about or you're talking about emptiness as space what were you talking about kabir emptiness or space um the space that i was referring to is uh kind of giving some uh is when you do Zalzan, and you're off the cushion, and you're driving, and somebody cuts you off, and that moment where you can hit the horn or raise your finger, by not doing that, that's that space. That's really well said.

[79:05]

Thank you. Now, emptiness is when I hear the word Rajnaparamita. reminds me of when I first got introduced to emptiness years ago, that everything lacks inherent existence. That nothing exists from its own side, period. It does not. You need both. You need form and you need emptiness. Yeah, that's clarification. That's what I meant by emptiness. Because we talked about, we often talk about two sides. This shore or the other shore? So suffering nirvana. But anyway, back to what you were saying. I do find it interesting because that's very helpful. That's all clear. Because I think the idea of void or space is actually not empty. It's actually dependent, very much dependent on boundaries.

[80:07]

and the definition, so that was very helpful. And so my original question was actually going back to project, project, yes, thank you, that you mentioned that this is about before knowledge and so is that synonymous to the space you're talking about or are we talking about there's some kind of a a sort of temporality, you know, discussion here. Like there is a state of mind before knowledge, before knowing, and there is a state that we want to be at, which is empty. Well, that's interesting, the way you phrased the question. Did you hear, you people in the Zoom room? Zoom room. So-so? I say you should try to summarize it, Karen, if you can.

[81:08]

Well, Jason is asking about space and whether that's the way Kabir presented it is that moment when you're cut off by a car and you know you could flip them off or yell, but somehow there's this gap and in there you decide you have an option. don't do it so there's a space there and I think that is really similar to the space I was talking about in Zazen before all the self-centered thoughts start running away so there is that that's a really important space now just remember when I'm talking about before knowledge I'm talking about a very particular kind of knowledge, you know, what we think of as either information or assumptions or, you know, all the stuff that we're attached to.

[82:17]

Was that your, is that? No. Okay. Rich. Hi. Just to follow up on that conversation, but you wouldn't say that that space is wisdom, though, would you? Now that is very interesting. I don't want to say what wisdom is, but it's definitely part of it, Rich. Because Avalokiteshvara in this particular, what we're hearing here, he was practicing deeply the Prajnaparamita, okay? He was coursing, abiding in Prajnaparamita. He was abiding in that space before self arises.

[83:25]

When we come back to the breath, and let go of our story, for example, there's a moment where we're letting go of self. And then our attachment arises again. But over time, with practice, we're able to let go more and more. So, Avalokiteshvara is spending periods of time abiding in that non-self space got it and then so the reason i raised my hand your your story about your practice vipassana brought up a question is there a a pointer to before knowing like you give the example of somebody asking shouldn't you follow your heart and i was like oh That's not necessarily an example I might use, but I could see how like following your heart could sort of be a metaphor for before knowing, but I'm not sure that it is.

[84:32]

And I wonder if there is a good sort of shorthand for before knowing. Just like it's a useful sort of tool. Are you talking about words or? Yeah. Yeah. Well. Cause it could be your heart, right? Like that is sort of like, you know, you follow your, it's something before, it's something intuitive. It's something, it's something before. I was thinking more, you know, when I said it before, I was thinking more of that cliche. Yeah, exactly. Got it. But like, so, but it brings up the question for me, like, what is, what would be sort of a truer pointer? Well, Rather than follow your heart, you mean? I think for me, you know, I had to find myself teachings that really spoke to me that helped me drop myself.

[85:46]

Like Dogen's words about practice he called it practice enlightenment he put the two words together i find that helpful but you kind of have to find something that encourages you to let go of that attachment that attachment to oneself and one's story you know to drop it And it's something, that's why they call it practice, you know? You do it over and over again. I don't know if this is a question or a comment or both, but the comment is that space before wisdom, wisdom? I think that's what we are hearing in the sutra. There's something that we call wisdom before wisdom.

[86:53]

Maybe it's when all categories collapse and reason evaporates. There's a space before, you know, working with the scholars. But the thing that I did, just to back up a little bit, I'm wondering about the beginning of the sutra, it's Kanji's eye, the version that says the Bodhisattva who sees all and not Kanjayan. which I interpret as a more compassionate kind of term, the one who hears the suffering. So I feel like he or she is speaking to Shariputra kind of from the rational side, trying to say, hey, you're stuck in a rational kind of dharmic loop here. Let me try to help you. I don't know if that was intended or not. Maybe it's a little too texty-wompy, but I wonder. See, when we study Buddhism and we study the skandhas and we study the Four Noble Truths, they're concepts.

[87:57]

And so what Avalokiteshvara is eventually saying, you have to drop all these as concepts. We tend to freeze things. And how can we even insist with that concept? That's the interesting moment in Zen. Well... If I understand Dogen correctly, it's always there, and we, through Zazen, can access it. Is that right, or is that not a correct understanding of Dogen? Well, we live in both. We have to. So we live in conventional reality. I think about the first noble truth that we suffer, that's part of the human condition. I think about that every day in a very literal way. You know, it helps me, and I'm sure it helps all of us.

[88:59]

So we do things both literally, and then we drop these concepts. Because, you know, if I'm gonna think about my suffering all day, that's gonna be not Prajnaparamutra. But that's thinking about it. Oh, you know what? I'm really sorry, but it's actually time to end. I don't want to wear out my welcome by going over. We've been doing this for 90 minutes, so I really appreciate your attention. And Simone, I'm sorry that we didn't get to you, but. Please bring it up next time, next week. And Rob, I'm sorry. I won't be here. Oh, you won't? We can talk. You want to say it? Let me just share this. Okay, Rob's going to share. He's not coming next week, so go ahead.

[90:02]

On the subject of awakening, I've been taking a lot of naps recently, and they're very sweet. And there's this phenomenon. that we probably all experience when we wake up where there's this moment when you don't know who you are and you don't know where you are and you're just kind of baffled and you kind of you kind of grope for yourself yeah and and it's like oh give me get me myself back again and so so i don't i don't know if this this is probably a crude version of this but that moment before you've gotten yourself or you're aware and open. You know, I mean, Suzuki obviously talks about beginner's mind and beginner's, in that famous passage where he talks about beginner's mind and said there's, you know, few possibilities in the mind of the expert and many in the mind of the beginner.

[91:04]

And in that moment, before you've grabbed yourself and reconstituted yourself, there's, like, inch of it. And I see that happening in Zazen, too, where there's that moment when you've forgotten about it. I mean, you've literally forgotten. When Dogen talks about forgetting, it sounds like something that you do. But in Zazen, it's something that just happens. And if you do it often enough, it happens more often. But where you don't have that construct. And it seems like that... That moment before you're awake is more awake than when you're awake. Is that the unborn? Well, this is interesting. I don't know if you heard what Rob was saying, but he was talking about when you wake from sleep, you start grasping for who you are and where you are. You know, there's that disorientation that happens. And I just...

[92:10]

And that there are more possibilities in that instance. And comparing that to this space that we can experience before knowing. I call that becoming. You know, becoming is one of the 12 links in the circle the chain of causation. So one of them is becoming. So there's a point where we grasp on to this self and we become. I think I want to say, you know, there's another question here and I don't want to keep everyone. There's a short comment.

[93:13]

Oh, there's a short comment from Ross. Thank you. Sojin used to say that when I go to sleep, I let go of the universe, which fits right into when Rob wakes up from his nap, he and all beings are grasping the universe. Did you hear that? Okay, good. Thank you, Ross. Thank you, Sojin. Yeah, thank you, Sojin. Thank you, Karen. Thank you, Karen. Thank you, everyone, for being here tonight. It was such a pleasure to talk to you and hear your thoughts and responses and questions. So I'll see you next week.

[94:01]

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