Good afternoon. Good afternoon. This afternoon I want to talk about and discuss and take questions about our zendo forms. I've been working through the manuscript of Sojin Roshi's book, and there's a section in it called The Formal and the Informal, and I think that I'm going to read from that as a kind of introduction. It's commonly thought that Zen practice is very formal and rigid, and that thinking and emotions are cut off. Formal, yes. Rigid, not really. For every activity, there are rules, directives, and procedures. The formality of our practice allows access in our ineffable, fundamental and foremost nature. What looks like narrow confinement becomes

[01:03]

with maturity, vast freedom. What is formal becomes informal. Submitting to Zendo forms enables an attentive student to move and sit gracefully with ease and naturalness. Moving in the Zendo with awareness of the subtle sound of our steps, the upright movement of our posture, reflects a natural choreography. It's not a matter of getting it right or being perfect. Working in the tight space of the kitchen, we move around each other with sharp knives and hot pots in a harmonious improvised dance, concentrated and attentive, getting out the meal on time with a settled mind and relaxed body. The life of a Zen student is mostly improvisation.

[02:05]

Improvisation works best within a solid structure or container. A well-trained Zen student feels comfortable within the forms and approaches the activity with gratitude, awareness and confidence. There's a saying To sit zazen with warm feet and a cool head. People often say, I'm a very emotional person. I've never met anyone who is not a very emotional person. The ones who don't show their emotions are often the most emotional. To control or not to control. To have a cool head while sitting zazen is to think the thought of zazen. The nature of thinking is to think or to dream. The point is, who is the boss of thinking?

[03:11]

While we maintain a well-balanced posture of uprightness and flexibility, our feelings tend to harmonize with our situation. Why should we be thinking about something or holding on to feelings that have nothing to do with the present situation? Is it possible to let go and allow our body and mind the freedom from the fetters of emotion and thought? Formal and informal. They are just two sides of the same thing. My teacher said, even though there is no self, still there are rules. So we have particular forms here in this endo and in our tradition. And when you go to other places, you'll find that the forms are similar. But what's really tricky is that often they're a little different.

[04:18]

And they're not wrong. We're not right. I remember at the opening of Kochinon, Kiboroshi's temple on Chabot Road. When they opened, they had all of these priests that come from Japan, and they each had their book of forms, literally. And they were arguing for three days about how you did this or that, because everyone's forms were just a little bit different. so we have forms here but they're not they're not rules and they're not rigid the idea of them is to create a space in which we can move harmoniously together and also where we have some confidence about how we do things

[05:26]

so um again you go someplace else but when i'm so here uh when i'm the officiant and i uh offer at the altar i after i sidestep and i turn to my right and walk around uh when i'm at upaya zen center because it's a slightly different tradition. I offered the zendo, I offered the altar, I stepped sideways and I turned left. I turned inward. That's the form. And actually, the wonderful thing is to really pay attention to what's happening and to harmonize with that activity. So, I spoke to Martondo, Susan, Marvin, and also to Ross yesterday and collected some points of form to inform you about if you don't know them.

[06:47]

And also, I really want to have discussion to take your questions and to find out what you might like to know about, or then there's the awful question of, you may ask, you have permission to ask, why? Even though that's not a very good question. Why do we do things this way or that way? And probably I will not be able to answer, but in some cases I might. I wanted to say something else about our forms which I really appreciate. So, when you go to San Francisco Zen Center or to Tassajara, they have generally the same forms as we have here, but I'll say it's a bit more high church.

[07:47]

So there's more forms, there's sort of more elaborate. And what I saw when I was in Japan was which I really appreciated was I could recognize all the forms we did in Japan. I could see our forms within them. And what was interesting to me was the forms that we have here are ones that have been simplified a little bit for our space. They're designed to fit our space. So, for example, usually if you're the doshi there's a lot of space between the bowing mat and the back of the room and so the doshi would take a step back and bow and they take another two steps back or three steps back and bow again and then leave but we don't have that space so we take a step back and then we come and we stand in front of our seat and bow that's

[08:57]

an accommodation to deal with the space that we have. And they're little things like that that we've worked out. So, some of the points I want to cover is when we're walking in the zendo, we walk in shashu and we do kinhin in shashu. So you make a fist with your left hand with your thumb inside and cover it with your right hand and hold it sort of in the middle of your body so that with your arms a little away from your body and walk slowly in the zendo there's no need to rush even if you think you're going to be late just walk slowly on the balls of your feet and be mindful about your steps.

[10:02]

There's no need to run. And that's why we have this kind of formal way of walking in Shashu. So when you come to your seat, if you have cushions or if you have anything that you're carrying, a bag, a coat, put it down first. settle it first and then bow to your seat and turn clockwise and bow away and then sit down. I missed one point also. Just when you enter the Zendo, most of you, I think most of you know most of this, but when you enter the Zendo, you walk in in Shashu and take a few steps in If you're going to sit on this side, on the east side of the zendo, take a few steps in and bow in gasho to the altar.

[11:11]

If you're going to sit on this side, you move towards the middle of the room and then bow toward the altar. Then return to shashu and walk to your seat. I saw this the other day. This is a point. So we treat, when we're straightening out our Zafus for service, we put your Zafu down, your Zapatan down on the floor. And when you move it, bend down and move it with your two hands. Don't move it with your, don't push it around with your feet. it's part of you so you handle it like everything else uh very carefully very respectfully um gary has his hand up oh gary go ahead yeah hosan could you say something about when you're bowing who or what you're bowing to which vow are we talking about well the first coming in the zendo

[12:35]

and then at your seat. OK? My feeling is when you come into Zendo, you're bowing to everybody, including the Buddha that's in the room, and to the room itself as a space. You're just showing your respect. And it's just a way of honoring the space that you're entering in. making a clear entrance. When you come to your seat, you're bowing to your honorable seat, just to the place itself, which is going to support you. It's going to be your home for the next 40 minutes or the next day. And so when we come, we bow to our seat, we turn around and we bow across the room, again, to everyone who's sitting there.

[13:38]

And when we leave, it's the same thing. We straighten our places, we bow to our seat, and we bow away. Is that helpful? Other questions? Yeah. I have a question about Gosho. I've been told that the appropriate way to do gasho is our elbows are perpendicular to the shoulders and kind of this space is like where your mouth is. And that to have the elbows down is somewhat like informal. But I see people doing gasho at kind of all different levels. Right. Everywhere I go. We do not do gasho like this. It's too formal. It's too rigid. So your arms, you want to have a natural feel, an easy feel.

[14:41]

You can think about, then, for your hands themselves, that's... So your hands are basically a little below your eyes and kind of a hand distance away from your face. And your palms are a little arched. You know, they're not pushed together. So nothing is rigid. That's the kind of rigidity that Sojin was kind of naming as not our style. And so if you go to AHE, everybody's like that. You know, and it's very military. But we're a bit more informal. And that's the way That's the way we've been instructed here. And then it's interesting because, again, even in different Zen styles, they hold their hands in different places. But this is our style.

[15:44]

This is the Soto style that I've seen pretty much everywhere I've been. Usually that kind of arms parallel to the floor is kind of a a novice training monk's posture. So, we don't have to do that. Does that help? Yes, Erna. So, the guy shows that you were talking about at the seat. and the people practicing with you on that side. Because there's this return vow that the people sitting do. And when you back, after you back out, there's the return vow, right? Well, it's a different... Can you repeat that?

[16:47]

Yes. So, if I understand... I think the question was, is there a return vow that people on either side are making? Generally, yes. Generally, if there's someone sitting next to you and you bow and they see you in their peripheral vision, they should bow with you. The other place where that happens is, say, if you have to move your legs or if you have to get up during a period of zazen, before you move, you bow, and the people on either side of you also echo or reflect that bow. But sometimes they may not see you. That's okay. But in general, the practices, you do practice the return here, right?

[17:47]

Right, we do. And the other thing that we do is, that I was trained in, this may have slipped a bit, Usually, if you're standing and bowing at your seat over here, the person across from you would also bow. I don't know if that's... Do you think we still do that? I do. Well, some people do. Yeah, but that's the form. You know, so it's part of this greater spirit of sort of harmonizing. And it's quite lovely. the divider is up? The divider is up, no. No. It's really, if the divider is up, it's like two different spaces. And, you know, again, don't get too caught up in this as rules or regimentation.

[18:48]

It's just really what might feel right and respectful to you. And it's like, I just remember so many sechins and I can remember particular people's bows. You know, we'd be sitting in the same seats for a week and you would be bowing across the room to each other and you take their bow into your body and you may carry that image, that sort of muscle image in your body for years and years and never forget it. So it's, It's a wonderful practice. After each set of prostrations, there seems to be a closing bow. Is that choreographed or has that crept in? What do you mean, after each prostration? After each set of prostrations? I've noticed that most of us do another bow, standing bow.

[19:53]

Yeah, that's right. So if we do a set of prostrations after the third bow, say? Yeah, you would just... Let me see. I need to do it, okay? Hang on a second. So this is my third bow. Yeah. a very small show to kind of close that. I don't know, did you hear that? I don't think you saw it, but did you hear it? Does that make sense? Yeah, we saw it and we heard it. OK, good. Yeah, turn it up. That reminded me, I don't know if this is the confusion, but some people are sometimes doing it differently.

[20:56]

Before the three boughs, when the priests are putting down their... I don't know the name. Zagu. Zagu. So the priests bow because they're bowing to the Zagu. They're going to do something with the Zagu, but the rest of us... Just stand. Yeah. You just stand. It's sometimes confusing. Right. The priests have... There's just a way to unpack your Zagu and everyone else is just standing. And that involves a bow. I think, because I see other people, you know, bow with the priest. Yeah, no, but they don't have to. Yeah. So at the end of a period of zazen, when we're standing for service, there are three things to do. There's the bow in and out. There is... and there is laying out the mat for service. What is the order of those three things?

[21:56]

Actually, the order would be getting up, bowing to and away. Do not do anything with your cushioned hand. Just put your Zavutan on the floor. Then, when we're done, you put your Zagotan back, and before we leave, then you would plump up your cushion. Again, it's a little different in San Francisco because some of that is done after the officiant leaves, but here we do it. So I wanted to say something about fluffing up the cushion. Again, We kind of roll it with our hands like we're kneading bread. We don't mash it down or punch it. Again, it's into your head, so treat it respectfully.

[23:03]

And place it in the middle of the Zabotan. Some of these are kind of like the rest of us. Some of these are kind of old and mushy. so they don't necessarily stay fluffed up, and some of them do, but we make an effort to reinvigorate them. Yeah. Gerald Paul has her hand. Yeah. Oh, so I wanted to kind of go back to, this applies to Greece. When we picked... Final bow, we pick up our zagus. We can't really bow yet when we're getting ready to fold it because we have something in our hand, correct? And so once it's all folded, we put it back, we wouldn't bow that extra bow either because now we're ready to do the three boughs. I would do, I think... Can you repeat the question? Yes, I'm sorry.

[24:04]

When the priest pick up their zagu, you pick up your zagu, you fold your zagu, you put it on your arm, and then just do a little chashu bow. And then we're ready to do our three bows. Does that make sense? Yes, thank you. Yeah, Gansan? It's just a question about the fluffing of the pillow. Yeah. As doshi, I don't come back to my seat at the end, so should I be fluffing my pillow when I stand up and do the bow? Yeah, yeah. You have time as doshi because you're giving everybody else in the room time to put out their cushions. You want to make sure, before you go, you want to make sure that everyone is ready. Then you would go to the front of the mat. And so you have time to fluff up your cushion at that point. Sue, Margot, Helen,

[25:08]

I have a question about kin-hen spacing. Please tell us the spacing. Depends on how many people there are. You should always be exactly 23 inches apart from each other. No, you want to be evenly spaced. And you want to be evenly paced. So you have to time your steps, not your breath, you time your steps in harmony with the person who's in front of you, with a sense of space. Now, some places they do it, first of all, some places they do really fast Ginyin, which is like almost running, which is quite vigorous and wonderful. And other places, they do it in kind of lockstep, which We don't do.

[26:11]

So you're on your own, but it's like, I think of it as like, kind of like a millipede with all of these different legs that are independently coordinated, and yet they never, you know, they never run into each other. So you keep an even space according to how many people are, how crowded it is. And sometimes you might move ahead to close up a space. And so basically the process is when you are taking a step, breathe in, on, as you lift your foot, and breathe out as you sit it down. And then you may actually take a few breaths in between. It's not necessarily one breath, one step, but the steps are also coordinated with your breath.

[27:20]

Does that make sense? Yeah, but if you find there's five people bunched up behind you, maybe someone could step around you? Well, no passing lane. No passing lane? Right. It's not like the freeway. You might... You might move to another space in another line, that's okay. But people should be... We should be generating an awareness of where we are in relation to each other and do our best. But as I said, it's not in lockstep. But it is something that we do together. And do you want to say something about So when the bell is sounded? Right. So when the bell is sounded, you make a shashu bow and everybody at once should move, should walk very briskly all the way around their sector of the zendo and back to the seat and stand there until the director or whomever bows.

[28:33]

So even if you're close to your seat, you don't cut across, you go around the circle. Yeah, yeah. But if you're in my seat and you're at this point where you are, I would come here and I'd stop. And I'd let people go around. Margot? Zabuchan for service and leave our Zafu on the Tan. And I guess my practice is to move my Zafu to this side of the other Zabuchan that stays on the Tan that's away from the altar. And I've seen some people leave their Zafu in the middle of the Zabuchan. And I was just curious if there was some opportunity Not that I'm aware of.

[29:36]

And also, you know, a lot of people need their Zafus to sit on for Seiza. But, no, it's not so strictly determined. We're almost out of time. I'm going to go to 6.30 and then end. Joel? I just had a question about... You're jumping up, Joel. You need to put your hand... I can't understand you. Okay. How's that? Not so good. While you're doing this, I'm going to take another question. Helen? I waited because I have four questions. Oh, okay. Can you just ask them and you can answer whichever one you want? Sure. How do we relate to the bells at the beginning if we're late?

[30:38]

When do we need to stand at the door? Ah, that's a really good question. Let me just do that because that's important. If you come in after the doshi has begun, after the robe chant, if you come in before the robe chant, just go to your seat. If you come in after the rogue chant in the morning, just stand by the door until the doshi has finished his or her round. After the rogue chant has started? After the rogue chant has started, yes. Question two? How do we, at the end of zazen, you, doshi, bows to your seat and then bows to the room? In terms of the bells, are we meant to bow on the second or the third? Second. Oh, I'm sorry. You bow at the first, and then you... There's three boughs, three bells, right?

[31:41]

Everybody bows towards the altar. Then when I come back to the seat, you're supposed to do... There are two bells, and you do your bow on the second bell. The third bell. Third bell, yes. Right. Yeah, if we can. But that's a pair. Yeah, it's a pair. So the end of the pair? Yeah. Okay. I don't know where I picked up that when you come by or when a doshi comes by at the end, if I'm on the lower tan, I step up. Did I make that up? No, sometimes it's good. Depends on how crowded it is. Okay. Yeah. And then my last question. Yeah. How do I relate to the forms when we're not in zazen, we're not in service? For example, at the door, say I'm cheating, say I'm night watch, say I'm cleaning. I think it's really nice to bow whenever you come in and to do our leaving, you know, do a shashu bow at the door.

[32:46]

Just respectful of the space, irrespective of what activity is going on there. if I'm passing in front of the altar up front? If you're passing in front of the altar to do that, that's fine. When you're passing, yeah, and when I pass in front of the altar, if I'm, I do, you know, if you're passing in front of the altar, you do a, you stop and you do a shashu bow as you're moving sideways. And I would do that irrespective of whether there's somebody else in the Zen or not. That's a way of honoring the Buddha. Oh my God, this, I, Is it okay if we go five minutes more? Yes. Okay. We're not going to take any more questions than we've had hands up. Jeremiah? I was curious about the morning zazen and service and how it's different from the afternoon zazen and service, just in terms of the forms. The forms are much the same. The service is a little different.

[33:47]

There's no afternoon greeting. that's different for the officiant, but it's not really different for people coming from zazen. It's just there's no jundo, there's no going around. The officiant doesn't go around and greet people in the afternoon. It's a more abbreviated service. Okay? A simple one. Bow to your pillow, coming in. Bow to the people, then I'm always confused about then I get up on the baton. Yes. Is there a formal way to do it? I just saw Genpo do it backwards very eloquently. There's a good way to do it, yes. I mean, if you're on baton, you can move your

[34:52]

towards the front, and so you have some support. Sit down, swing your legs over. You try not to put your feet on the meal board, which is the Buddha's tongue, and swing around. And that's also a good way to do it even if you're on the floor tongue. Clockwise, yes. We do everything clockwise, yeah. Okay, that's all for in here. I think Yoni had a question. Oh, did you? It's okay. Yeah. When we close the windows, how should we get onto the tongs? Without stepping on the meal board. That's all. Yeah. Yeah. Dave? Joe's still up. And then Dave and Carol. Okay. Okay. How's that? Yeah, that's fine. But make the questions concise. Yeah. Kim Han. I've been taught at some point to breathe with each step.

[35:59]

And you're saying that that's not the case here. No, because you'll be taking too many steps. You know, you just breathe naturally. We're moving very slowly. If you breathe with each step, then you'll be taking too many steps and you will be you'll run into the person in front of you. Okay, thanks. Yeah. Dave? Is there a form in this temple about which foot to step in and out of the door? No, not really. Step over. What? Step over the threshold. Yeah, step over the threshold. I mean, I could... There's something... I know what I do, but we were never really given a form about that that I can recall. It's different, say, from Tassajara.

[37:02]

Thank you. Carol? I can't hear you. When leaving the Cento, where do we do vows? Where do what? Where do we do vows? as we pass the altar, and then later it became as we leave the door. Can we do anything? This is now we're heading out, heading out the door. At the threshold, before you step over the threshold, you do a modest shashu bha, so that you're continuing your zazen practice into the world. We don't turn to face the altar here. And there's no extra vows that you have to do. Okay, Erna, you get the last question. Okay. Judy, you get the last question.

[38:04]

So, some of our forms can really challenge body ability, like the Bodhisattva ceremony. And with the I might have an idea that I can do a whole bunch of full prostrations, sit on my knees high up with my hands in gusho, and I discover at some point, oh boy, I can't. It would be awkward then to transition to a chair. How do you work with adapting the form so that you don't injure your body in the midst of such a thing? Well, I think you should think relatively in advance about what your actual capability is and not push yourself to do something that you think you're not going to be able to sustain. You may notice, I've been doing the bodhisattva ceremony in a chair. Right, but sometimes we learn in the process, especially if we're new to the form. Then sit in a chair. Or sit on the end, sit on the, pull your Zabottan off to the front of the meal board so you're not sitting on the meal board, and sit on the Tan.

[39:15]

And if we were in the middle of the Bodhisattva ceremony, like I found, I was in Choki, and I happened to realize that my knees were hurting too much, so I sat down into a kind of Shaza. Fine. That's fine. Yeah. You should do whatever you need to do to accommodate your body, but also we need to really learn our bodies. We should learn. We need to learn. and have a sense of what our capabilities are and not push ourselves too hard. Especially as we get to the age that some of us are at, you know. So please just accommodate yourself and nobody's gonna look us against at that. But you have to be the person that determines that. Okay, well thank you. lovely uh to talk with you about this and uh i look forward to please any questions that you have that have not been covered here uh feel free to bring up with me or with uh with susan or ross or lori when she gets back and we'll be happy to do our best to answer thank you

[40:40]

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