Almost everyone here was here last time. But we got through more or less, kind of, three chapters. Chapter 23. And now we're going to see what we can find out about the last eight chapters. I wanted to just open it up and see if anyone had anything to say. Well, I'm just astounded by the difference between the Western tradition and the Western tradition. Well, take me to a place in the sutra.

[01:07]

Well, the first sentence of the second sentence in chapter 19, it says that the son or daughter built a billion worlds of this universe with the seven jewels and gave them all to the the target of, you know, non-capitalism. Who in the body of man produced this result by that good son or daughter of the great? Well, I mean, even the ancient Greeks, a couple hundred years later, only had seven in their cosmology, and here are these guys who've got a billion. Well... A billion's probably not a good number.

[02:08]

I don't know, actually. I wouldn't be surprised if they did. They were good with numbers. But did they use our system? I don't know. It's an interesting question. A lot. A lot. A lot. I asked, last week, if the Diamond Sutra creates the Heart Sutra. Well, actually, I think in the forum we had some discussion about that. Did you read the pieces that are attached to that? in the back. So what's the quick answer? What's the quick answer? Nobody's quite sure. But actually, I think that, if I recall correctly, Red Pine makes a case that perhaps preceded the next one.

[03:15]

I can see reasons why you might say the opposite. But it's some type of magic. It gets very speculative. And I have another question. When the word realizes, does that mean in the sense that we use it? The word realizes. For example, just between, well, it's the last part of 17. Sabruti, when a Bodhisattva realizes dharma set for himself as a dharma that has no self. Yeah. OK, let's go back to 17 there. I think it gets used differently in different places. I think there's not a copy. There's no more copies. No, OK. OK, so that's something I have to share. All right, 18. You say we, oh, yes.

[04:20]

When a Bodhisattva realizes dharmas have no self. Is this the same as realizing when I saw a bird, and it seems like there's a slightly different connotation. But in fact, I think it's... I think that's a very interesting question, what that means, because it's sort of... People use it to... The connotation is a lot of times sort of understanding something in maybe a multifaceted way. Like understanding is kind of a term for sort of a multifaceted apprehension of maybe a complex idea. But I think that in here, in these contexts, it's more often something a little different than that. which is more of, it's like an embodiment.

[05:22]

They understand what it means, they understand that it is a complex of ideas, and they realize it as a, they embody that teaching. So I think that's the sense of it. Now it may be different in different places, maybe we won't bump into it tonight. I wanted to... I had a thought about a question you raised a couple of weeks ago, Rome, about, you know, it's like, what's this obsession with bodies? And the thought I had about it, I mean, I haven't carried it through entirely, but the thought I had about it was that it has to do with the circumstance in which the sutra didn't talk. And then it's a circumstance just like this, you know, I'm asking you, how should I stand? How should I go? There are various bodies in the room, and they are... And then there's these questions about possession of attributes.

[06:25]

And there's many questions about what is the Buddha's body, because we're all sitting here in the room like this. And the disciples are asking Buddha why he's sitting there before them. So, is this his body? Is this the Buddha's body? Or is it some other body? So he goes on to... explode various ideas of the body. But I think that's sort of the hunger. It's about something here. What is that? So it's something to kind of end in the body of merit. But we'll get back to that. Third thing is, well, it's so. Let's plunge right in. I thought, because these last eight chapters didn't actually, they weren't all that long, you know, a couple of pages here and there, I thought we could just read right through them and then we could come back and touch on various points.

[07:31]

There are a lot of... We're starting with 24. We're starting with 24. And, oh wait, it's 25. No, I'm starting at 25, sorry. Okay, well, you're talking to somebody. I've had a day where I spent a lot of time forgetting myself perfectly. Okay. Subuddhi, what do you think? Does it occur to the Tathagata, I rescue beings, Surely, Sabuddhi, you should hold no such view. And why not? Sabuddhi, the beings does not exist who is rescued by the Tathāgata. Sabuddhi, if any beings could be rescued by the Tathāgata, the Tathāgata would be attached to a self. He would be attached to a being, attached to a life, attached to a soul.

[08:35]

Attachment to a self, Sabuddhi, is said by the Tathāgata to be no attachment. Yet foolish people remain attached. Then foolish people, salute thee, are set apart with the Prakātā to be known people. Thus they are all foolish people. Salute thee, what do you think? Can the Prakātā be seen by the means of possession of attributes? No, indeed, Bhagavan, as I understand the meaning of what the Buddha says that the Prakātā cannot be seen by means of the possession of attributes. The Buddha said, Well done, Subuddhi. Well done. So it is, Subuddhi. It is as it might be. The Tathāgata cannot be seen by means of possession of attributes. And why not, Subuddhi, if the Tathāgata could be seen by means of possession of attributes? A universal king would be a Tathāgata. Hence, the Tathāgata cannot be seen by means of possession of attributes. that venerable Siddhuji says of the Buddha, as I understand the meaning of what the Buddha says, the Devadatta cannot be seen by means of possession of attributes.

[09:43]

On that occasion, the Buddha's first book is Gata, who looks for me in a body, who seeks me in a voice, and indulges in wasted effort. Such a people is seemingly not. Saluti, what do you think? Was it due to the possession of attributes that the Tathagata realized none excel in perfect enlightenment? Subodhi, you should hold no such view. And why not? Subodhi, it could not have been due to the possession of attributes that the Tathagata realized none excel in perfect enlightenment. Wherefore, Subodhi, summon lately those who set forth on the bright side of the path announce the destruction or the end of some Dharma. Similarly, we should all have no such view, and why not? Those who set forth on the Bodhisattva path do not announce the destruction or the end of any Dharma. Similarly, in the Sun-Sun fire took as many worlds as there are grains of sand in the Ganges.

[10:46]

and covered them with the seven jewels and gave them to the gifted devotees, the unarmed ones, the only enlightened ones. The Bodhisattva gained the acceptance of selfless, virtuous nature of dharmas. The body and mind of the Bodhisattva's result would be immeasurably and infinitely greater. And yet, Samudri, this fearless Bodhisattva would not receive a body of merit. The venerable Samudri said, But surely, Bhagavan, This bodhisattva overseeing the body of merit, the body of the Lord, he would salute thee, but without grasping it. Thus, if his call was seen, he would not salute thee. If any wish to claim that the Tathagata comes or stands or sits or lies on a bed, salute thee. They cannot understand the meaning of my words. And why not? Salute thee. Those who are called Tathagatas do not go anywhere, nor do they come from anywhere. Thus, they are called the Tathagatagarbhas, fully enlightened ones.

[11:48]

Furthermore, Subuddhi, the source of knowledge to as many worlds as there are specks of dust in the billion-world universe. And by an expenditure of limitless energy, you round them into a multitude of atoms. Subuddhi, what do you think? Will there be a great multitude of atoms? Subuddhi replied, so there will be a great multitude of atoms. So there was Tathagatagarbha. therein would be a great multitude of atoms. And why, if a great multitude of atoms existed for Tigran, that Tigran would be the most popular of a multitude of atoms. And why, for Tigran, this multitude of atoms of which the Tigran speaks, is there for Tigran to be no multitude. Thus it is called a multitude of Tigran. Also Tigran, is the only one in the universe of which this Tigran speaks, He said, I'm going to talk about the meaning of the universe. For us, it's called the building of the universe. And how so? By Rome, if the universe existed, attachment to an entity would exist.

[12:52]

But whenever the Buddha speaks of attachment to an entity, the topic of speech is that it's no attachment. Thus, it is called attachment to an entity. The Buddha said, to me, attachment to an entity is inexplicable and inexpressible. It is neither a dharma nor a dharma, for which people of the whole are attached. And how so, since it would be someone should claim that the Tathāgata speaks of the viewer himself, or that the Tathāgata speaks of the viewer of a being, a viewer of a life, or a viewer of the soul, since it would be, it would just plainly be true. No, no, it is. No, indeed, Bhagavan. No, indeed, Siddhartha. Such a claim cannot be true. Why not, Bhagavan, when the fact that it speaks of the view of the Self, the fact that it speaks of it is no view, as it was called the view of the Self? The Buddha said, Indeed, it is. So it is. Those who set forth on the place of the path understand, view, and cultivate all dharmas, but understand, view, and cultivate without upholding the idea of dharma.

[14:02]

And why not? The idea of a dharma is stupidity. The idea of a dharma is sacrifice and targeting to be no idea. Thus is called the idea of dharma. Through their austerity and the fears of the subtle world, they have led us into worlds worth seven jewels, and gave us offerings to join in. They are our hearts, the fully enlightened ones, but they are just like our Father, to whom we hold no more lying vows than this teaching of perfection and wisdom. They memorize, discuss, recite, and master, and explain in detail to others. The loud and airy music that echoes in the sky above is the result of this, believing that your weak link will be greater. And how should they explain it? As a land, as a terra, as a star in space, an illusion, a dewdrop, a bubble, a dream, a cloud, a flash of lightning, you created things like this. So should they explain it? This is called explaining. All of this was spoken by the good, to the joy, and all the humility.

[15:05]

The monks and nuns, the laymen and laywomen, the bodhisattvas, the deities, the gurus, the shamans, and the dharmas of all the world, all of whom were very pleased with what could be accepted. Thus, in the name of the Lord, I reveal this, and I share it with you." Whoa. This is a dance that should be danced. Yeah, right. I do want to point out one, just going backwards here to the very end, the translation of this business about explaining is different in the published manuscript. If you would read it, I think this section, and how should they explain it? Right before they've got to it at the end.

[16:08]

Well, I think I... It's very easy to grasp what they're saying here in the Lumieretta's version of the translation. I had a little trouble with that in the published version. How should they explain it by not explaining it? And then that got to continue to happen. So that didn't work for me. I don't know if anybody has been reading this. Well, I remembered from that concept But there was something missing there, so this seemed awkward to me. So it was not to reveal. How should they explain it? So it was not to reveal. We'll have to come back to that someday.

[17:13]

Because it's sort of, it's difficult. I mean, I don't, you know, the phrase, how should they explain it, by not explaining it. That's how they should explain it. You can work with that, but it's a little hard to. Especially since the virtue of explaining, memorizing, reciting, explaining to others, comes up a dozen or so times in sutra. It's interesting because that does come up a dozen or so times in sutra, but it's never explain how... How they should explain. Well, I guess this is it. That's where it is. And so, you know, either way, I think in some ways, by not explaining it, I think that is a clarification in some ways. Because how, if you were to explain it by, as a metaphor... You mean these metaphors? Yeah.

[18:15]

I mean, to me that just means pointing. Right. Yeah. the characteristics of that. In the stories in the literature, the Zen stories of students who were grateful for their teacher not explaining something to them. That's true. He didn't teach me anything. Thank goodness. Well, so we'll go back over some of this, just to kind of survey our way through. Meanwhile, back in chapter 25, we come up against this view of foolish people that's all of us, basically.

[19:16]

So the Buddha holds no view of rescuing beings, and yet, because the Buddha's not attached to being or life and so on and so forth, and yet foolish people are attached. I find this a little mystifying too, because it sort of pops up out of context. I mean, in some sense it seems sort of obvious. It's so obvious why I say it. I guess it's a reference to the adherence to the lesser vehicle or something like that, perhaps. And yet it's not, it comes at the end of a chapter where they're really not talking about the activities of those, they're talking about saving beings, which is not sort of re-application of the, you know, what you call the Theravadans or the traditional schools.

[20:28]

Also, I think the Ancestor has that contribution of saving the beings in your body. Right? There's some in the Platform Sutra. Oh, in the Platform Sutra. Right. He allegedly was awakened by hearing something, a diamond switcher going on in my camera. Well, apparently, what it says, somewhere in the commentary here, is that it was that line in chapter 3 about giving birth to a thought. Oh, uh-huh. Uh-huh. I wonder if that kind of ties into the whole idea of the thought of a being, and saving a being, and living a being from the mind, after we come together, and just take care of it like that. It seems like this pretty much echoes What he's saying, the Bodhisattva Shakyamuni should save beings even though they don't perceive beings. I mean, he's just saying this is what the Tathagata, this is how the Tathagata... Right. Same speed. Yeah, it is a little bit odd to bring up the foolish.

[21:34]

It seems like it's pretty much the same, you know, the four types of being there are. So, in 26, we're reminded again that the type of it cannot be seen by the possession of attributes. And this comes back to this thing we were talking about. It's actually in a later chapter here. back a little bit to the topic of bodies for a moment. I had a thought about this idea of possession of attributes because it isn't by the possession of it. The reason why it's not, I'm jumping ahead,

[22:37]

jumping into the position. Well, let's get through, let's finish with 26. And so the Tathagata reminds everyone that a universal king, which was sort of the alternate path for Buddha, I guess, was predicted to either become Buddha or universal king. And I guess universal kings can, in fact, be identified by the processional attributes, but not the Buddhist. And then, yes? Are the attributes the 38 marks of a? Yes, that's what they're talking about. And then at the end of this chapter, we have a little gatha about, and this kind of clarifies, What's this business about?

[23:46]

What's the real body of the Buddha? Or it brings up the question again anyway. He looks for me in a body. He seeks for me in a voice. He indulges in the voice of effort. Such people see me not. You can imagine this being coming up in the group surrounding the Buddha as he's giving his teaching. Where is the Buddhist body? Yeah, I'm just puzzled because I know that in the Kranten translation there's more to this. Oh, really? You're sure? I'm sure. Is that part of the shelf or someplace? But I'm aware that would be... It looks for me and it's like, through the Dharma should one see the Buddhas. Through something comes their guidance. I know if there's something about through the Dharma should one see the Buddhas. I don't know. It's going to be towards the end. Does he have the 32? I don't know if he does have the 32 or not.

[24:53]

So we're in which chapter again? 26. Ah, there it is. Yeah, this is a little bit different. There's a whole other gatha here. From the Dharma should one see the Buddhas. From the Dharma bodies comes their guidance. Yet, Dharma's true nature cannot be discerned, and no one can be conscious of it as an object. Why did you leave this out? He didn't like it. He didn't like it. Does it say anything in here? So that's an interesting one. We can go back to the Let's see what, let's see. All right, 32, here we go. Oh, yes, and here's about the, how should they explain it in the kind of translation it goes on?

[26:03]

and illuminate in full detail for others on the strength of that, this ladder would beget a greater human merit, immeasurable and countable. And how would he illuminate it, so as not to reveal? Therefore it is said he would illuminate. So, A moving target, as usual. So, the Buddha says, the Buddha caps off the the chapter about whether or not the Buddha can be seen by means of possession of attributes.

[27:06]

I can't see it in there, but there it is. Second, Gautama is present in all editions consulted, except those of Kumara Jiva. By the Dharma is the Buddha seen, and all teachers rely on the Dharma body. The Dharma nature should not be known, nor can it be known. Those commentators are of the opinion that it's omission in these editions, in these other ones, Coupled with the appearance of such terms as dharmapaya and dharmartha, which appear nowhere else in the sutra, suggest it was at a later time in the Bhagavad-gita. Okay. Moving on to 27. And then Buddha asked Subuddhi, what do you think? Was it due to the possession of attributes that the bhagavata realized that nonexcels perfect enlightenment? So it doesn't even wait for an answer there. And I wanted to get back to this, because in the very next chapter, in 28,

[28:17]

There is again a comparison between covering the billion worlds with seven jewels, and this comparison is a little bit more different. In the Bodhisattva gained an acceptance of a selfless, birthless nature of all thermals. I don't know if that's the same as realizes not. well, I know it's better, but I think it actually means something different. The selfless birthless nature of all dharmas, the body of merit would be so much bigger, and yet, he would not receive a body of merit, and why not? He would, but he would receive it without grasping, and that's the meaning of receiving, is that it kind of just It might come, it might go, but whatever it does, you know, there's no apprehension of it.

[29:25]

I think in a lot of Kanzai's translations of the larger Heart Sutra, you know, it says something about the Bodhisattvas are doing it and they do not apprehend it. They don't get hold of it with their mind. So they're clueless? They're clueless, yeah. Well, can we go back to the after views for a second? I mean, he's got the best of what Blackburn would keep going. That's so to say. He had some of the swastikas on his feet in the early 30s. It's not through these attributes that I realize enlightenment. You can't know me, who I am, through these attributes. You can't identify me.

[30:26]

Don't pay attention to these attributes. And then again, I think of that That idea about not receiving, receiving but not grasping, is a little bit how the attributes are possessed. If they're not possessed, they're not grasped. In other words, possession without grasping. Anyway, just a thought about how that ties together with what the Buddha is teaching about the body. Well, let's check on that.

[31:28]

Is that what it says in the earlier instances of this huge body of marriage, that they would produce a body of marriage or they would retain it? Does this relate to the human body? Is it his body? Well, the body of merit... Visually, it's his body, before we think about it. Right. But the body of merit that appears as a result of this, you know, this act of explaining, you know, the sutra, He's talking about how the bodhisattva receives it. We're pretty clear that the result of that action, that action or non-action, whatever you want to call it, produces a body of merit.

[32:32]

But then, well, what's your relationship to that? Well, I just suddenly was wondering if it's like, well, if you work out with weights every day, you'll produce a body of strength. And then it's like it's actually your body. You know what I'm saying? Earlier, I can think of it as a kind of storehouse. Vibrant, in my mind, is a storehouse. Oh, you're right. For everybody to get what is good. That's all it is. It's good, it's kind of a storehouse. Now all of a sudden, I'm thinking it's like, it's like, more like, you know, there's these ways to produce a product, and then you see it as if it's more intimate than it is, because it's on your body. Well, yeah, it is in a way. It's very intimate that way. And yet, in some way, this example you're giving, working out with weights, it creates a body which is almost just ephemeral in some way.

[33:35]

I mean, it's a, you know, we create a body that's sort of an idea, almost, our idea of the body is almost, it's part of the body or something. But anyway, I don't want to go too far with that. But I think the idea of the body of merit that is produced is something that permeates. And yet, you don't grasp it. You participate in it, but you're not grasping it. And that not grasping it produces an even greater body of merit. And so on and so forth. Can you make any quick notes on any of the other translations that you've seen? Is that what it is? Oh, is it the same team? So Shirley was pretty self-aware that he had done it. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And they put that grasp on it as well.

[34:36]

Well, they're, you know, the English connotations are different. So maybe we'll have to drag Red Pine back here. I need to change that word. But he was very intent on trying to find the right you know, a series of English words. And obviously, it looks like he had a number of choices that he kept kind of waddling back and forth on as he went through it. It seems like obtain has more to do with grasping than receiving. I can see why. It seems to me I can see why you might have refined it that way. Oh, because it's a... Obtaining is like getting it. But receiving is also getting it, but somehow for me, obtaining it has more of an ownership quality. And for me, receiving is like someone gives it to you. Rather than obtaining, it's just something you get. You get for yourself.

[35:36]

Well, you can take it. Yeah. Well, in a way, also receiving is, yeah, like you say, it comes from some place else, and we've been talking about the body of Mary, something which is produced as a result of the Bodhisattva's act, or thought, or whatever, and yet, so it's maybe better to use the word attain, although maybe the connotations aren't quite right, but it's I'm saying that it's juxtaposed by this idea of not grasping the whole thing. Oh, I'm sorry, because he changed it from receiving to accepting. Yeah. I thought, yeah, I get it. OK, I have that. Now, chapter 29 goes back to,

[36:43]

Yeah, this is a little bit like, in the beginning, the monk says to the Buddha, how should I stand? How should I walk? This seems to me to be sort of a reference to the body of the Buddha. Is the body of Buddha really doing any of these things? Is that, you know, now that you've gotten through the sutra, you can say, no, the body of Buddha is not really about, you know, somebody who walks, or comes, or goes, or lies down. It's something, it's way something else here. And yet, I can kind of live with this coming at the end of the sutra. Because at the beginning of the sutra it seemed like, well, that's really what was being asked about.

[38:02]

How do you conduct yourself in the body? But now they're saying at the end, now that we've gotten through, exploded all these conceptions that we had about it. Now we can say, well, the body of the Buddha doesn't really have to do with these things. It's really not. The body of the mirror, I don't know. something much, much bigger and less tangible. Chapter 30 is, you know, actually, you know, it's certainly interesting. Chapter 30 doesn't talk about unexcelled perfect enlightenment or any of these things, but it's like taking, it's like, it takes the concept of a great number of things And this is perhaps one of the even bigger numbers that comes up here, the most exaggerated numerical expression, you know, characterization of numbers. And it says, well, these don't really exist.

[39:07]

Just to make sure you don't get hooked on the idea that there are these big numbers of things out here, they're not sort of supposed to be that as well. So I think that was good that they did that. And in the end, again as the reference to all of us, those people that are attached, I mean, is the Buddha reminding Subodai that, that, that, you know, not to say, reminding Buddha that the people out there do need help? Just popped into my mind. And then, chapter 31, we go back again to the idea of you.

[40:36]

And I think the interesting phrase in here, those who set forth in the Bodhisattva path understand you and cultivate all dharmas, but understand, view, and cultivate without upholding the idea of dharma. So how do you do that? Well, I'm just trying to think of it. Can we get into a couple examples here? I mean, not that I can think of any. So the teacher is sitting. Could it be just sitting is producing a body of something that you're not grasping or trying to perceive? Yeah, it's a little bit how you relate to your experience. You're reacting to it in some way, or it's just taking its breath.

[41:45]

I'm going deeply into it, but not saying what I'm sticking to. Yeah, it's pretty tricky. So if you cultivate mindfulness, exactly. You understand view and cultivate all darkness. So isn't darkness cultivating mindfulness? And then somehow you don't uphold the idea that there is actually mindfulness?

[42:54]

Yeah. Yeah. Actually, this is what's... This is about... This reminds me. the concept of doing traditional practices, and yet I do not have a handle on doing these practices. That's from the Purusha. Well... Well, that's a good thing. Well, you wouldn't come home and say, you might have been practicing mindfulness all day, but if you came home and said, wow, I was really mindful today, that would be going too far. Way too far. I achieved mindfulness. Maybe as you were pulling up to your door, in your car, and you said to yourself, Maybe you didn't have that thought, but then you wouldn't really believe it or something.

[44:07]

Yeah, you'd say, I had a really mindful thinking moment. Yep. I know it was a really helpful thinking moment. Plus it is called a mindful thinking moment. Speaking of somebody in the garden being mindful, how does that happen? So you're beginning and ending it. You're beginning to forget it. and then just like cultivating my garden. I do not harbor the idea of gardening. There's no garden. And it's not going to stop me from digging. Or shopping. I think, actually, the first teaching in the sutra about giving birth to an idea of And without the human beings, that actually creates an opening to do this kind of thing.

[45:07]

I mean, I'm confused as to why shouldn't we be directing human beings? It's just a thought, you know? Just a thought. You could play a little more with it. There's more poetic ways of talking about it than concessions. No, that's fine with me. You know, it's not about the playing, but you started off this evening about something about you had forgotten... Unexcelled, perfect enlightenment. Right, there's a moment like you had forgotten that. It wasn't a moment. It was many moments. All right. So isn't that the same thing as this admonishment, like we shouldn't say that we are fighting mindfulness? I'm probably dumb. We're both concepts about some sense of ground that holds it all together.

[46:09]

In one sense, we're actually kind of touting it as something good, it's something that we actually are kind of congruent with. And in the other sense, we like, forgot that it's actually there, but they affect the same way. Okay. I'm not sure I followed that. I think the general instruction, it feels like to me, is it's not good to talk about being mindful and like say, oh, I'm being mindful now. But we are encouraged to sort of just acknowledge, oh, this was a moment of like inattention and mindlessness and forgetting the ground that connects them. So in one sense, it's OK to acknowledge the ineffable, and in the other sense, we're kind of encouraged not to talk about it so much, but it maybe becomes like a thing, something to aspire to. I mean, I think everyone has the experience of trying to be mindful of that, and then finding oneself.

[47:11]

And then you find, you experience a kind of breakthrough, and a little insight, and it's kind of like, oh, I can kind of swim in this, you know. And then suddenly, I'm trying to reach for it and get a hold of it. In a way, I'm trying to reach for that feeling that I had of just sort of expansiveness and kind of experience, trying to re-experience something because it seemed like it was a path. And maybe it was, but It came to an end at some point, and I forgot. Yeah, yeah. The feeling came. Some state. It just came. Some state. Open state.

[48:11]

It just appeared. It just appeared. And it might have been the result of, you know, something I did. But on the other hand, it doesn't. Perhaps the flavor lingers, the aroma lingers for a while, and then something else happens. But sometimes we kind of cling on to the memory of the aroma. You know that phrase of Dougie? And that trace goes on. That no trace continues endlessly. Who would have said that? I have. And finally, you said, talking about tights, what I thought of was trying to get a tight to fly. And you'd run, and you'd roll over the ground.

[49:12]

But finally, you'd get something, and it really flies. It's great. And a big gust comes along, and whoo, it's gone. I still kind of enjoy watching it going around in circles as I would study. You know, as an image of mindfulness. I think what Russell is suggesting is that if you're trying to watch this pain, If you fixate on watching the kite, and you're fixating on it, and you have this fixed idea that it's going to leave the kite, because the kite's going to pop. It's just going to pop. It goes down. Then it has a bop. But if you don't kind of have it watch the kite, the kite has a bop.

[50:13]

It leaves the kite. So that's the churn of the moment. And I think also different practices have different emphasis on it. From the very bottom to the upside, from the upper to the lower, from the same people to the same size. It's the being. Well, I wonder. I mean, there's images like that we have in some of the liturgy, like the mosquito biting their own bowl. As they started jumping off the water to the pole. I thought about burping. Yeah. But there is this... No, no, that's it. You can't do it, no matter how... Well, I thought of it as, because I think of it, that it's Zen, are about some kind of effort, some kind of intense effort.

[51:22]

But it's not... A mosquito biting an iron bull is like, you're crazy. No mosquito can ever bite an iron bull. No mosquito. So it's that sort of... It's like, how do you work with that? Do you sort of sit there and grit your teeth? Or what do you do? Or do you forget about it? What's the middle way? You know, for me this isn't so much, I mean, I think that whether you're an apostate or whatever, it seems to me like the only way to understand the sutra is talking about people who are practicing Buddhism very intensely. I mean, it doesn't really apply to anybody else. I mean, it's talking about the traps you can fall into when you're doing Buddhist practice really intensely, don't you think? Absolutely. And I think that everybody runs into those when they're practicing.

[52:25]

I mean, you know, I betcha there's more in every lineage about that, about the traps. Absolutely. That's right. So it's just simple, right? It's just, this is like about letting go every second. Every single thing. [...] Well, it's like dancing, you know, when the music is actually coming from your body. That's the kind of dancing that this is sort of about, is that it's, you know, you're sort of creating the world. right there, and there isn't anything outside of it. But in order to do that, it is letting go of everything, moment after moment. That's how that energy flows. Otherwise, it's sort of something else.

[53:27]

And that is not incompatible with anything separate? No, not at all. Therefore, it is not incompatible. I think that it's intense effort on the edge, right on the edge of just not doing anything at all. Intense effort to do exactly what's already happening. Well, it's like when you're sitting, you know, and there's this thing about, you know, like some of us have this problem. You know, we've been sitting for a while, and we get a little bit comfortable. And then for years, all we do is fall asleep. You know, you cross your legs, you sit down, you take a few deep breaths, you know, straighten your body. And I can remember struggling with this for a while at one point. I can't remember when.

[54:30]

But I had to go to that place where I was falling asleep. There wasn't any other place to go to find out about it. where it was just coming from. So I had to come right to that edge and stay there, stay conscious enough on that edge, and then maybe I may have learned how to stay awake. But there wasn't any, you know, I couldn't force myself to stay awake, because that really didn't work, because I wasn't learning about what was happening at that edge. So you would sit and find yourself going to a very clear place. Drowsiness. Yeah, I'd let the drowsiness come. And then you would point yourself to what is it that I'm avoiding, maybe, or why am I... Yeah, I'd let myself come right to the edge of that. Go with the drowsiness right to the edge of where I would lose consciousness. And then just, you know, if possible, just stay on the side of it.

[55:33]

And then I sometimes would wake up It's funny to find out where that, what I was, there was something about my energy which wasn't working. I heard an embarrassing story this week that kind of reminds me of Jess. Is that okay? Yeah, it's like we don't mind you embarrassing us. It's not embarrassing for me, it's embarrassing for all Buddhists. I've been with my mother for the last week, and we have this wonderful hospice nurse. I mean, she's just really one of those people who, when she walks in the room, everything just relaxes. And she's been doing it for a really long time, 20 years or something. And I mean, she's just a wonderful person, a wonderful nurse, and a wonderful presence. And she was saying she has to change her job share partner.

[56:35]

And the partner that she's being given is someone that she has kind of a problem with because she's a Buddhist. And a lot of her patients have complained and requested to be, not have her because she basically lays a trip, her own trip, her own idea of what that is supposed to be about, about the dying. And they, she, she, I mean, she lays this trip on them and they call Member Cervicizer, Member Services, and they say, we don't want that nurse. And I think that's kind of like something about what this is getting at. It's like she's coming in there with an idea of what's supposed to happen, which is exactly what you're not what she's you know she's not supposed to be doing that you don't know who you're dealing with as a buddhist she should her practice should be helping her not do that right yeah it should be helping her be open to whatever's gonna happen there so I mean I think that's kind of it's sort of like well what is

[57:56]

like forcing people to be open to the experience Whereas, there's a little bit more to the story, which I've been really wondering about. So Catherine, our nurse, who to me embodies just exactly that. It's like, how can I go on this journey with you? How can I be there for you? She has been, her boyfriend wants to and has muscle and has meditated, so she's been going to these Gil Froskell. Sometimes she comes down here and she really, she really hates to meditate. Look at this me, you know. She didn't say she hated it.

[59:01]

She's uncomfortable for the whole, mentally and physically extremely uncomfortable for the entire time. I mean, we've all been there, but, you know. Well, it's really, you know, It's very easy to be this kind of... I mean, I've been in situations where I go into something where it's a different cultural setting, essentially. And everybody's really intensely into what they're doing. And I feel so uncomfortable. Even though everybody's having a great time. I just can't quite relate. How do I fit in? So it could just be that she's going there because her boyfriend's going there rather than she wants to go. But she does want to. I mean, she... It's interesting. She already does it. Yeah, exactly. You know, Elizabeth Coogan and Ross did not want to let two sailors burn down because people didn't like what she was doing.

[60:06]

Well, she was telling people what it's like to die. She'd been there and come back. She was going to tell them. When people came there to die, she would talk to them? That's right. This is what to expect. I see. You never know what's going to come down the pipe, do you? No. Before? No, obviously. I mean, we don't know what happened when she died. I mean, as she was approaching it. She got really angry. Yeah. About the eight stages. So... She got stuck in one of the stages. So maybe we should go back to explaining by not explaining.

[61:15]

Well, let's see. We're going to have something fun to do. You can explain to us. Explain to us. Well, I have a question. Yes. Is any other superhuman soul randomly thus ends the holy mother of the universe? Well, that's a good question. I never heard that one. He might have been that one. It might just be a matter of how we don't keep embellishing this situation. They often end pretty glamorously, I think. Well, the heart suture ends pretty close.

[62:25]

There it is. Yeah, let's hold it. Right. Right. Well, there we are, you know. I mean, that probably, that line probably appears as somewhere at the end of many of those translations of consulted sources. But how one would translate it wholly, I'm not even sure I know what the word means in English. It's just that it has these connotations that it's used in certain meanings. But what does it really mean? I'm sort of curious, actually.

[63:25]

I don't know. You can't know. It's a whole. It's the whole thing. The whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. Holy Mother of God. Bless. Right. There's nothing outside of that. It's holy. It's a cure. Ultimate cure. Sinless. What's that? Without sin. Without sin. Well, it has, you know, to be holy as in the whole. cast those connotations. And sin is about, you know, discrimination or separation. Linda doesn't think this is going anywhere, if I may quote you.

[64:33]

We're just playing with it. We want it all. We contain it all. Holy, holy, hallowed. Belonging to, coming from the God, hallowed, consecrated, set apart to a sacred place, having a sacred character, and for all sorts of reasons. Spiritually perfect, flexural, plain and simple, deserving reverence and worship. especially for Jesus, is very much of a generalizing offensive, and it's not political. That's the one that works for me. Your only terror of movement. The other ones would seem a little too, like they're slicing and dicing a bit.

[65:33]

Okay, Linda, now it's your turn. Well, how should we walk? Or should we stand? Or do we stand at all? Or even lie down? Hmm, what? What is this should stuff? Should. How should we walk? How should we walk? Just like that. There's no should. There's no should. Without it, without shoulds. You're a dancer.

[66:43]

I'm not a dancer. I thought she was known as a dancer. We thought you were. I'm a dancer. I'm a dancer. I have all sorts of attributes that I don't know where they come from. How many? Well, then you're a no-dancer. Get up. Numerable attributes. That was good. That wasn't so good. Well, now we're done. Now we're back away. Anybody else? I wonder who, like, I totally agree with what you were saying, just as far as, this is a great future for people who are going to pass their practices and start to think, oh, I'm very advanced in my practice. just start having ideas that might be attainable.

[67:45]

And I feel like that's a way in which we are addressing a bunch of things. And so I say kind of, yeah, it's just a little bit of work. And so I think it's a very critical thing. And I think it, perhaps, trying to decipher it, just, what does this word mean? And thinking of it as, like, in other sutras, it's like this perfect thing where every word has some meaning. For me, the intent of the sutra is more poetic, in a sense. Yeah, it's about tripping us up.

[68:53]

Well, Laura did have the suggestion that we read the entire thing through. Because it works as a narrative in a different way. But I actually, I mean, I actually, I agree with that. I just felt like the way, what we have here to look at is, it's a little bit difficult. You know, it's interesting that when you, I thought what you were going to say was, I thought where you were headed was, so this sutra is for people who are like thoroughly sort of, they've studied Buddhism up, down, and sideways or something already. So what about people who haven't? Is this an appropriate sutra for people who haven't? And where I went with that was, that's what, in a way, that's what Suzuki Roshi did. He came right out at the beginning and told people, the first thing he told people was no meaning idea.

[69:58]

And I think that is what a lot of I mean, are we skipping something? I wonder if we are skipping something. Oh, you mean by emphasizing the opinion? to people who haven't even gotten to gaining. And they don't have anything to give up. Because I think effort is important. And it's just important to the middle ground is between effort and no effort. But it's very easy to

[71:02]

If no effort is emphasized at the very beginning, where's the effort going? And I don't know, it's just... And he does say, you should save the... I mean, he doesn't skip over that. The Suzuki version is not a de-emphasized effort. No, absolutely. It's like when the alarm went off, he got up every time, and he just... I remember these... where somebody rang the bell early in session, and everybody was on their way down to the Zen Dojo, and said, I'll put the bell right here. Well, I'm going back to bed. And he went right down to the Zen Dojo, and we had to hear that later. But that's something to just sort of get up with no hesitation. That's the result of some effort. You can't do that. your whole life about having made a huge effort to learn how to do that.

[72:11]

But I think that the other part about no gaming is that it actually makes practice accessible to people. Because it means, I can just do this. I don't have to worry about the result. I can just do it. That's the hardest part. It's big to do. You can't do that. That's swimming upstream with a pen. It's a relief to feel like I don't have to obtain something. I can just be here. And I don't have to worry about my attainment compared to your attainment. Of course, people do, but that's a problem for a lot of us. But I think it does open a door. Yes.

[73:32]

That's another interesting question. No, no, I guess the problem with faith, why it takes so much effort, is that it's... it's not holding you out for something.

[74:52]

And that's... that does take a while. It's not holding you out for something. Maybe part of it is fake, that this body mirror is being generated. You can't see or hold onto or experience, but just... You're in some kind of being. Maybe that's what they're getting at here. He's saying, don't worry about it. Know that just understanding one line of the sutra is generating you to know the mirror. It reminds me of an email that I think some of us were getting from Micah about not fixating on a particular candidate, the President of the United States, as a way, because fixating on this candidate actually creates an energy field which helps that candidate.

[76:06]

The one you don't want to get collected. She did say fixate on it. Maybe I didn't read that part. I don't think I used the word for the same thing. Yes, I used it, but I'm not going to say it out loud. But don't, don't, yeah, don't stick to the one you don't like and get into the negative and the sort of the hateful. Making it too real. Yeah. Now we're getting into generation with the anger and all the stuff that goes along with that. So we're just letting that sink in a bit.

[77:07]

Yeah, the current goings-on between the aliens and the Atlanteans You know, part of what's interesting about the book is that there's all these nuances in each of the parts of it that you would never think of. The commentators. The commentators have lots of things to say. In fact, there's something really great that's written for instance. Sort of like these little issues that come up that are more a little nuance that you wouldn't realize was an issue until somebody put it forward to you. And I haven't really looked at it since then. That's why I really like this book. It seems on its first read, though, this is just pretty simple. It's hard to do, but it's a pretty simple statement.

[78:13]

Yeah, but then when you start looking at all the little nuance and basically the structure of what's being said, you realize that there's a lot more adversity than there is in all the implications. There's a lot going on here that's not something you can get off of. Well, you know, in a way, the, uh, the, uh, the archidharma, you know, which is the sort of systemization and the kind of rational, you know, rational analysis of everything that was said, actually said, so to speak, on the sutra side, you know, got way, [...] way bigger. And only little bits of that are traced into this one. And then some people tried to kind of, people tried to kind of, the huge commentaries on the sutras, people tried to kind of condense into something that was, you know, maybe 10 volumes as opposed to 500 volumes.

[79:15]

There's something wonderful that's about to go down in one of these last chapters. Let's see if we can find it. It's a wonderful thing to close with. No, it's not that. When we first learn to meditate,

[80:25]

And he's commenting on the stanza. On that occasion, when the Buddha spoke this gatha, who looks for me in form, who seeks for me in a voice, indulges in wasted effort, such people see the work. So it's a comment. Thich Nhat Hanh says, when we first learn to meditate, we may visualize the Buddha with his 32 special marks. But once our wounds are healed, We should leave those images and see the root of birth, sickness, old age, and death. Nirvana is made of the same substance as attachment, and awakening of the same substance as ignorance. We should be able to sow the seeds of awakening right here on Earth, not just in empty space. When a beautiful lotus flower grows out of the mud, without afflictions and sufferings, I'm trying to recognize again.

[81:37]

There are some things going on. And Shoshana said too, so. Well, don't receive your mind and desire in the same sense. And I said, yes, but what's the difference? And I screwed back to my seat. Slunk back to your seat. Did he mean you, Vika? Can you tell the difference? It could have been any one of us. Right. Maybe he really meant it for somebody else. Yeah, and I was taken abloat. I like that. Who is that? I don't like that. I think we got it.

[82:44]

It's a lot easier. Pardon? It's a lot easier. Yeah, I think I'm kind of done, and I want to actually express my appreciation for everybody's interest and effort to deal with this. sort of different stuff. And I don't know whether or not we'll come back to this. I assume we'll come back. But I guess I personally feel like I'm going to stay with it for a while. Maybe read some other translations of Howard Jones as well. See other ways that we can get around. I think people could talk a little more if they want to.

[84:01]

I'm taking part in a small study group, which may or may not happen, but if you're interested, thank you. What brought you to this? Well, somebody just asked me. But my interest in this is that it comes from Red Pine's business representative in a series of classes I just felt really kind of opened up, and it was very surprising, engaging. So I sort of stayed with it. It might be that the next thing we could do would be to just bring things up and take a few chapters and study some of the commentaries. It's just the exhaustible ways in which to make this part of this.

[85:16]

I didn't see this. Yeah, you should call me or I'll, you know, if something is happening, it's supposed to be, it'll be some sort of, you know, nozzle certification or something. Is there anybody that you know? I've seen the daughter of a family who was raised in a fabric store in Brooklyn. during the week in between your meetings. If we came to the meeting with a moment in the week when we found a way to practice this. Yes, this is something, I think because I was committed to trying to just walk through it, that I didn't really focus on that so much.

[86:18]

But I think that would be a really good purpose for a slower approach. If you say, OK, we're going to work on this chapter, and we're going to work on these particular things, and this, or anything that's come in, that's something that you've actually kind of worked with. It's a piece of it. I have that for you in a way that you can give it to me. Thank you. Good morning.

[87:06]

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