Good afternoon. We have a little over an hour. I'd like to come back to the koan we were discussing and actually hear what you think. But I was looking at, during the work period, I was looking around at what I could find on no birth and no death, and found something quite good by Thich Nhat Hanh, which is often the case. Now, there's a guy whose language is almost always really accessible, and he really unpacks things in a comprehensive way. So let me just read to you, this is short, and it's personal, too. This is excerpted from a book of his called No Death, No Fear. So, kind of on topic. Our greatest fear is that when we die, we will become nothing. Many of us believe that

[01:05]

our entire existence is only a lifespan, beginning the moment we are born or conceived, and ending the moment we die. We believe that we are born from nothing, and that when we die, we become nothing. And so, we are filled with fear of annihilation. The Buddha has a very different understanding of our existence. It is the understanding that birth and death are notions. They are not real. The fact that we think they are true makes a powerful illusion that causes all of our suffering. The Buddha taught there is no birth, there is no death, there is no coming, there is no going, there is no same, there is no different, there is no permanent self, there is no annihilation. We only think there is. When we understand

[02:06]

that we cannot be destroyed, we are liberated from fear. It is a great relief. We can enjoy life and appreciate it in a new way. I think this is really the thrust of what Dogen is trying to get at in these spasticles. And then Thich Nhat Hanh says, the same thing happens when we lose our beloved ones. The day my mother died, I wrote in my journal, a serious misfortune of my life has arrived. I suffered for more than one year after the passing away of my mother. But one night in the highlands of Vietnam, I was sleeping in the hut in my hermitage. I dreamed of my mother. I saw myself sitting with her and we were having a wonderful talk. She looked young and beautiful, her hair flowing down. It was so pleasant to sit there and talk to her as if she had never died. When I woke up, it

[03:10]

was about two in the morning, and I felt very strongly as though I had never lost my mother. The impression that my mother was still with me was very clear. I understood then that the idea of having lost my mother was just an idea. It was obvious in that moment that my mother is always alive in me. It's quite beautiful. It was obvious in that moment that his mother was just an idea. Right? That's what he said. That's what he said, yes. Other things too, he said. Right. Well, I don't want to talk about this too much, but it comes

[04:12]

back to, we were looking at Dr. Abe's translation where he talks about time. So it was obvious in that moment, at that time. Yeah. He said, you started out with Thich Nhat Hanh saying, there is no death. Right? It's an illusion. Something like that. Yes. He said, the Buddha taught there is no birth, there is no death. But in the sentence he also says, it was so pleasant to sit there and talk to her as if she had never died. Right. But what I'm wanting to get at is, I think he doesn't, isn't it, there is something that's not being said there, that it's when there's no death, it's that the idea there's no death is that you don't exist in a way that could be killed anyway, because you are constantly being born and dying

[05:13]

all the time. So there's really nothing that can get annihilated. I think that's, I think that's, that's the point. Yes. Okay. It's not as, it's not as good news when you add that part into it. Right. And then, yeah. That's not being said there. Right. The body still dies. Right. And he doesn't. So does the continuity of consciousness. Right. And that's a, in that thing by, what's his name, Derek Parfit, you know, he says, well, there, there is a, you know, my perceptions or my experience within this body, within this body is going to, is going to end. I made a mistake. There is no continuity of consciousness. That's just an illusion. There's memory. This is a big debate, but, you know, I agree with you. I thought that the Buddhist idea was that there is no continuity of consciousness. Unless you're

[06:18]

Tibetan. But let's not put in that. That's a whole other can of worms. Very, very, as something that continues. Or something that's arrived. Something continues. The same moment that the previous thing moment died. Right. So, I just wanted to read that as kind of context and then let me read this. This is the truth that part of us, which is terrified of dying, is going to die. It's going to be wiped out and absolutely annihilated. Yes. Okay. Thank you. And that's, that gets back to, you know, kind of the, we had, we had several different

[07:20]

experiences of so-called near death that were related in the first session. One person was quite scared. Another wasn't. In my own experience now, what near death is, who knows? You know, who knows what it really is? You know, is it, is it a spiritual experience? Is it a neurological experience? You know, we don't know. But I can tell you that in that moment, even though most of the, most of my life, I'm, I have a lot of fear of death. In that moment, that was not the case. So, even though you have fear of death in this moment, in the actual moment of dying, that may very well not be the experience. My experience in general of things that I fear, and given the fact that I'm a sixth on the Enneagram,

[08:24]

which is a fear type, there are lots of them, lots of fears. My experience is that the fear is almost always more compelling and more awful than the moment-by-moment experience of the negative circumstance. That is bearable. The fear is sometimes almost unbearable. But the actual experience is bearable. That's why it comes down to, to the, you know, to those four words, you can do this, or as Suzuki said, well, you can die. You know, yes, you can, you can actually, without, there's nothing hindering it. But we have this, it's the clutching. That's what Dogon is getting at in both of these fascicles. So, let me read

[09:29]

this again. As the monks, Dhyasana and Dingsana, were traveling together, they had a discussion. Dingsana said, when there is no Buddha within life and death, then there is no life and death. Dhyasana said, when Buddha is within life and death, there is no confusion about life and death. The two monks couldn't reach an agreement, so they climbed the mountain to see Dhamme Phacham. Dhyasana raised his question with Dhamme and asked, we'd like to know which viewpoint is most intimate. Dhamme said, go now, come back tomorrow. The next day, Dhyasana again came to Dhamme and raised the question of the previous day. Dhamme said, the one who's intimate doesn't ask. The one who asks isn't intimate. Years later, when Dhyasana was abbot, he said, at that time I lost my eye. Let me just read you also, here's

[10:37]

another translation. While walking together, Dhyasana and Dingsana were talking. Dingsana said, no Buddha within birth and death is itself no birth and death. Dhyasana said, Buddha within birth and death means no illusion about birth and death. They went up the mountain to see Dhamme. Dhyasana asked him, we are unable to decide which of our views is closer to the truth. Dhamme said, one is close, one is far. Dhyasana asked him, which is close? Dhamme said, you should leave and come again tomorrow. The next day, Dhyasana went once more and put the same question to the master. Dhamme said, the one who is close does not ask. The one who asks is not close. After he had become a temple master himself, Dhyasana

[11:37]

said, at that time I lacked the eye. So, you've heard this now a bunch of times. What do you think? I'm wanting to make sure that it's not simply that answer that the one who asks is not close. It's not just saying, you, the monk who asked, is the one who's wrong. I don't think so. Okay, thank you. For one thing, the first time he said, we'd like to know, so it wasn't just one person asking. Yeah, I think they probably did both want to know. Yeah, they were both asking through one guy. I'm reminded of that statement, those who know do not teach, those who teach or speak, those who speak do not know. If you're

[12:45]

not asking, it's about discursive thought, isn't it? Asking a question is a different mode of mind, a different kind of mind. It could also be that, as Dogen seems to think, both of them are equally okay, or for that matter, equally not okay. But suppose they're equally okay. But to ask which is better is to not understand. In other words, to see that they're both on the mark, or pretty close to the mark, you're understanding. And if you think that they're so different that one has to be closer, that perhaps is revealing a flaw in your understanding. It's dualism. It may be the part of ourselves that seek for an answer like that. That kind of discernment lacks the intimacy and the one in us that

[13:52]

can sit with the koan, which is maybe why he sent them away, to sort of activate that place in us where we can sit with not knowing, or being one with what seems like a paradox. I don't find them opposite realizations. I find them just different takes. But being able to sit with it without a yes or no, that place in us may be more intimate. I just want to say I'm really grateful for the opportunity to study this stuff together. It's not all so transparent to me at all. I don't want to pretend that it is. Some things come clear, but some things come clear in the discussion and in the study.

[14:56]

And some things are not clear, either because my understanding is not complete, or because it actually can't be put into words. In this case, the question that I have is, it feels to me like the quick place that I go, and that I'm hearing each of us going, is that there's a value judgment in close and far. That we think close good, far bad. I'm hearing that in the evaluation. I'm not sure. I'm not sure that that's true. We feel like, often we feel like our life is close, and our death is far, and then at some point

[16:03]

is close and far, like the young person bending and extending their arm. I just raise that as a possibility. That actually, I don't find, these perspectives, as I can understand them, and it's really hard to get your mind around them. In a sense, they're talking about two different things. Two different ways of looking at birth and death. It's not like an argument that is about where one is right and the other is wrong. It's actually, and this is part of what Dogen has been talking about in both these fascicles, that you can't, there is, shall we say, moment by moment, reality which is complete.

[17:10]

It's complete dynamic working, and there's also this perceptual sense of process that we have of our life unfolding and moving in time. We have both of these, we can have both of these sort of simultaneous, or whether it's simultaneous or not, I don't know. But certainly in rapid succession, we can move back and forth between these two. And I'm wondering if that's what he's getting at. If that's what's being said in this koan, and if that's the reason. The other thing I noticed is it's really, really hard to, I've looked at a number of translations to, Dogen is sort of playing with the order of who says what,

[18:19]

when. He sort of flips it around, and so it's very confusing to get your mind around. He doesn't really, he doesn't want to ascribe things to Jashan or Dingshan. It's just like, these two guys were talking about this, and they, he said, these statements are the essence of the words of two Zen masters, Jashan and Dingshan. You should pay attention to both of them. Yeah, Marie. I'm thinking about the story, I guess I went someplace a little different, in that the one that said, the first one that said Buddha is not in birth and death, he was the one that it was described to be distant. His answer was distant, and the one that said Buddha is within birth and death, that answer was close.

[19:22]

And so I thought he was just talking about Buddha. I think you're on to something. And I think then it gets fuzzy towards the end. Jerry. Does it have anything to do with what was in the other one, which was whether we are detached from birth and death or penetrated? Yeah. So if we are out of birth and death, we're not deluded, we're detached from it, but if we are in birth and death, penetrated birth and death then. You know, I'm thinking back on what Ross's response was,

[20:32]

when he just said the Heart Sutra this morning. In Dr. Abhi's translation is, since there is a Buddha within birth and death, there is no birth and death. OK, so you could say, since birth and death is an expression, is of the total dynamic working of Buddha nature, there is no birth and death as one syntactical unit. There is no distinct birth and distinct death. OK, that part, I think, to me that's relatively clear. But then, since there is no Buddha within birth and death, that's a different translation. Since there is no Buddha within birth and death, one is not deluded by birth and death.

[21:36]

That no Buddha is what I'm thinking of as the Heart Sutra position and also as Thich Nhat Hanh position, no Buddha. One is not deluded by birth and death because not only is there no Buddha, but there is no birth, there is no death. There is nothing that you can point to, to reify, perhaps. That's another perspective. But you see how those things, they don't line up. They are two different ways of looking at reality, I think. What you just said doesn't even line up with the second phrase of our primary translation. To say that there is no Buddha in birth and death is very different from saying a Buddha is not in birth and death. Yeah. It's like a third thing.

[22:38]

Right. All of these translations are different. Let me just see what... Well, Nishijima says because in life and death there is no Buddha, we are not deluded in life and death. So that's very much like Dr. Abe, right? I kind of trust Dr. Abe's translation a little more than Kaz and Arnie Kotler's. But that may... Each translation is throwing a different light on things. There is something to be learned from all of them. Yeah. Isn't that kind of the point of Dogen? That these are two different translations, or two different perspectives of life and death, and both are actually true? Yeah. I think he wouldn't... He is not saying there is an argument here and one person is right.

[23:39]

He is saying these both are throwing light. But where he goes with this, in what this fascicle, right in the middle, suggests to understand that birth and death itself is itself nirvana. There is nothing such as birth and death to be avoided. In other translations it says hated. And there is nothing such as nirvana to be desired. Only when you realize this are you free from birth and death. So, then skipping this paragraph that says it is a mistake to suppose that birth turns into death. Accordingly, when birth comes, face and actualize birth. But you could also say life. When a moment of your life comes, face and actualize that moment.

[24:45]

And when your death comes, which is a moment, face and actualize death. Do not avoid them or desire them. Because you can't get out of them. This is things as it is. Just to get back to the beginning. We have sort of oversimplified a little bit in saying that he agrees or thinks both of these are equally good. He says more specifically, these statements are the essence of the words of two Zen masters. You should certainly not neglect them. Because they are the words of those who attained the way. He doesn't say they are true. He just said, if you want to be free from birth and death, you should understand the meaning of these words. That can still mean that the words are partial or any number of other things. Or, you could say, don't neglect them.

[25:51]

Figure it out yourself. This is your life. You have to figure out where your intimacy is. Sutra that I love in early Buddhism is the Kalama Sutra. Which is sometimes known as the Buddha's doctrine of free will. Don't take something because a teacher said it or because you read it in a book. Or on the basis of any kind of given information or statement. But you have to verify it in your own life. And that undercuts a lot of doctrine. And I think that the next sentence, Dogon is saying, those who want to be free from birth and death.

[27:00]

In other words, if you want to live with freedom, you should understand the meaning of these words. And then, if you search for a Buddha outside birth and death. If you think that it's someplace other than, if the Buddha is in, say, the Pure Land. Which is beyond your birth and death. It would be like trying to go to the southern country of Yue. With our sphere heading towards the north. Or trying to see the Big Dipper while you are facing south. If you look for, if you try to find the Buddha outside of this realm that we are actually in. You will remain all the more in birth and death.

[28:02]

And that is samsara. You will just keep cycling through samsara. Then he said, just understand that birth and death is itself nirvana. That if you accept them as one thing. If you accept them as all within the limits of this great unbounded space. If you accept them as the moment by moment manifestations of the sincere heart. Then, lo and behold, you are free. And the thing is, we all have moments like this. We probably had moments like this sitting, each of us. At least flashes of it sitting here in the last two days. He said, this birth and death is the life of Buddha.

[29:13]

If you try to exclude it, you will lose the life of Buddha. If you cling to your life and you try to remain in it. You will also lose the life of Buddha. And what remains will be the mere form of Buddha. Only when you don't dislike birth and death. Or long for them. Do you enter Buddha's mind. When you just live your life moment by moment. Receptive. I think the receptivity is really important. Being receptive to whatever is coming our way. And that's really hard. Because things happen and we want to push them away. Yeah. I see that as being more of an expression of the first.

[30:19]

I'm still trying to understand these two. Because a Buddha is in birth and death. I like the way Jerry was describing it as thoroughly penetrating birth and death. Facing, actualizing birth and death. There is no birth and death. That one kind of makes sense to me. Then to say that because a Buddha is not in birth and death. I can understand that a couple of different ways. Birth and death here is not used in the same way as it is in the previous sentence. I think that's right. So because a Buddha is not in birth and death, you could say. Because a Buddha is not in the concept of birth and death. Or is not limited by birth and death. Or not caught up in the story of birth and death.

[31:21]

Yeah, then a Buddha is not deluded by birth and death. That also makes sense. Is that what they are talking about? I think so. I think so. Yeah. And at different moments. I think at different moments. One of those may be more useful than the other. But different moments. You said that you can interpret birth as also meaning life. Yeah. But I'm wondering if birth and death as one phrase could be substituted by human life. Or like it's a hot world. Is the whole unit kind of interchangeable in that same way? I can start to, if I experiment with that and start to work with that through this. It makes a little bit more sense. Say a little more.

[32:23]

Well, I guess for me when I think of human life, there's something that I understand that's much more legible and familiar to me. Because we all have our own experiences of it all the time. In a very concrete way, birth and death can feel more conceptual. And so if I bring it back a little bit closer with a term that I think of often. My question is I also don't want to gloss over more complexity. I sometimes think of life as encompassing birth and death and everything else. Yes. Is that what you're saying? That life includes birth and death. Like marking it as human to me somehow feels important because it's sort of human life and experiences. It's full of pain and full of joy.

[33:27]

That it's, it feels a little bit, I don't know, it could just be my own kind of interpretation of it. There's two different meanings of death. One's opposite life and one's opposite birth. If birth is like a moment that something comes to be, death is like a moment when something goes away. So those are completely separate moments of undivided activity. They're instantaneous for one thing. Whereas life is like a whole, it can go on a million years. It's a sort of general thing that lots of things are in life. And death, the opposite of that, would be like a sort of realm. It would be like all the stuff for eternity that's not alive. It's not a moment. It's like the absence of existence. And so if we use death in both of those terms, it could be mixed up.

[34:31]

You know, like birth and death is like coming and going. Life and death is like two different realms more. That's where our, that's where my anxiety comes up. Around thinking I'm going to move from one realm to the other. I think I know about this realm. I don't know anything about this other realm. And it scares me. But the point of this, I think, to get to what Devin was saying, in saying, I read this yesterday, Nishijima's, in his introduction, Master Dogen says we are not able to understand intellectually what our life and death are. He says that their meaning is embedded in our real day-to-day life itself. In our daily life, life and death both exist in undivided wholeness.

[35:38]

I think this is another way of saying what you were saying. And I think what he's doing is trying to, he's trying to wean us from this anxiety that we have about thinking of them, thinking of these two realms. I think that's sort of the purpose. And this is our work. Do you think that's what practice is about then? Like you said, anxiety comes up when you think about traversing realms. And his instruction is sort of like, you're traversing realms moment by moment. Get to know this. Get to know that. Do you think that's one of the ways he's pointing to relieving the anxiety?

[36:42]

Yeah, and it may not be relieving the anxiety. First of all, it may not work. Second of all, you may not be able to relieve the anxiety. The anxiety itself is also undivided activity. It's like when you said Saha world. So Saha translates as the world to be endured. It's like the world which is actually marked by suffering and anxiety. That's the world we got. And the advantage of it is that in doctrinal terms, that's a world where one can become a Buddha. Yeah, there were a bunch of hands. Russ? Well, when Karen was talking about realms, I was thinking about the six realms of existence which we can look at in our life. We're not dying in that. We're just transmigrating to the six realms. Which is a great practice because we get to see the impermanence of us,

[37:48]

the inflammatory nature of things, and all the feelings that arise and pass away. But that's really different than, say, what Category was talking about or what Jignaan Hal was talking about. So to me, it feels like short of having an actual experience of dying is based on faith. That these guys and gals who've had this experience have had some taste of something worse and we want to believe it. Which, to me, is apropos to having some anxiety about our death. Because if we haven't actually died, we're reading books, we're hearing lectures and all that. It seems to make sense, but we haven't actually tasted it. We haven't actually experienced it. Because after the exhalation, we come back to life. So, it doesn't mean that your anxiety is fun to have, but it's also a legitimate feeling.

[38:55]

Not only is it a legitimate feeling, it's like... Authentic feeling. Yeah, or authentic, but it's like, it means I'm alive. The anxiety itself means, it's like, oh, I'm alive. Tamara? I'm remembering something that happened when I was in Tassajara. I had a friend there who was a woman in her 60s. And the first time she was pregnant, the baby was born dead, actually. So it was like full term. And I think a few years later, she had a healthy child. But still, at 60, she was just haunted by that first experience. And, you know, she talked about it in a way-seeking mind talk, and then she just got sadder and sadder and sadder. And then one day, she appeared looking very bright and happy. And she said, you know, I was in my state, in my grief, in my feeling of loss.

[40:00]

And all of a sudden, I realized I needed to ring the bell. And I went to ring the bell, and when I hit the bell, I realized I had forgotten. You know, it had dropped away. And she said, gosh, I spent all those years on therapy and medication and whatever. And it was, you know. So, I guess, to bring it to the con, you know, Buddha was not in her... I mean, in a sense, she found Buddha sort of there in the moment when the bell rang. Not in her, you know, sad memories. Her cogitation. Yeah. Which, you know, had really kind of dominated her life for 40 years. So, I think it's... So, wouldn't you say that's, I mean, that was kind of the ground out of which... What? Wouldn't you say that was kind of the ground out of which this realization could come from? What about that grief? Oh, I think you have to have those sadness to see what its true nature is.

[41:04]

If you don't have the experience, if you hadn't had the experience of grief or whatever, there would have been nothing, as you say, I think, nothing to... How would you experience the Buddha of the present moment and the sound of the bell if you hadn't been lost? I mean, that's the thing about... What does it mean that Buddha is in our awakening and awakening in our delusion? We can only find awakening within delusion. Yes. Yeah. We can't find awakening within awakening. Right. And that's akin to what Ross and I were just talking about. It's like in one's anxiety, one can say, oh, I'm alive. Now, that's not necessarily freeing. But also, I think the ground, what I was hearing, and you may not have meant this, part of the ground was she also had a ground of practice that gave her a certain activity.

[42:05]

And within that mysterious activity... So this gets to the last part of this koan. Within that activity, she also woke up, within ringing the bell. That's why I asked about practice. Because I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I'm thinking that there's something in the training, like when Alan was talking about Ken being a server and being in his body, when we practice, even though we don't die or what we think, those states come and go. And I think what we're being instructed or trained to do is to not identify so much with it, so that even though there is anxiety, I feel anxious, with practice that starts to become revealed as the arising and falling of a realm. And as I practice that, or as that gets practiced, then my identification with those states,

[43:13]

and that's where I think some of the ease and liberation and right view come into. So I don't say that being able to go from a hell realm to an animal realm is the same as this body dying. That's particular. But I'm trying to bring in what's practiced for them. And what Tamar's story showed is like, when you have a ground, accidents can happen. We wait for that. Roddy? Well, I'm not sure I can formulate this, but I guess I've been thinking about this too, Karen, and like during this time. And that is, I wonder, facing and actualizing death. Is that when you have the ashes of loved ones in urns on your altar, and you bury your cats in your garden? There are practices and there's chanting.

[44:16]

Is that what you're doing? That's practice. Ultimately, you're going to do it yourself. Right. That's what he's really talking about, I think. Ultimately, you are going to face, you are going to actualize your death. Each of us is. And it's really practice, like it's really, what, it's in the sense of like rehearsal. I think there's rehearsal, yeah. Veronica? I was thinking back to what you said about the anxiety about something being worse often than the actual thing you're anxious about, which I resonate a lot with and find myself doing a lot. And then thinking, this seems to be pointing at death, for example, as something like that and pointing to it being a moment that is unique and just like any other moment.

[45:24]

But we focus on how unique it is or how it's unlike other moments and that makes us anxious. Is that, I don't know. Yeah, you know, it seems pretty different, you know. But we don't know. Some people do have heard reports back, I suppose. I haven't. But it's the unknown that I think we have anxiety about. And so that unknown is in the unknown of what we fear, the unknown of what's in the future. And the unknown, I think, there may be something really hardwired into us about non-existence. I mean, biologically, I really think that there is.

[46:28]

And the advantage of being a human is that you actually have tools to look at that and not be caught by that so that you live in a reactive way. Yeah. I have to turn this conversation to a big question for me that's about something about harm or I guess the ground of suffering and thinking about, for example, taking this notion that daily life includes birth and death and then looking at something like Katrina, for example, and then thinking about the suffering that occurred and continues to occur in New Orleans. And there's something there about that's not satisfying, I guess, because there's something about it's almost as if the way I'm thinking looking at this text,

[47:40]

that then I would look at a situation like that and say, well, they have this great opportunity for practice. You know, there's life and birth and death in every. So let's go a little further. Actually, we can maybe do this. First of all, to speak to just I think that this penultimate paragraph, to me, it resonates with what Tamar was saying about this woman. She says, however, do not analyze or speak about it. Maybe do not psychologize it, perhaps. I'm not saying speaking against psychology. It's very precious. Just set aside your body and mind. So ringing the bell is just setting aside body and mind. Forget about them and throw them into the house of Buddha. Then all is done by Buddha.

[48:42]

When you follow this, you are free from birth and death and become a Buddha without effort and calculation. Who continues to think? Let's skip that for the moment. There's a simple way to become Buddha. When you refrain from unwholesome actions, that's the first thing that he says. So it's not like everything is equal and what you experience, it's about what you do. Refrain from unwholesome actions. Are not attached to birth and death. Are compassionate towards sentient beings. So it's like, don't do a lot of shit. Do good things. Be respectful to everybody. And don't be caught by your desires or your hatreds.

[49:48]

Then you'll be called a Buddha. There's nothing else to look for. So I think this does have implications. It's not like whatever it is, is okay. It's what will I do? Everything in both these fascicles is pointed towards some kind of action. We can't say what kind. It's the action of practice. It might be the action of you in relationship to another or in relationship to the larger society, whatever. But action, this is where he goes. When you refrain from unwholesome actions, are not attached to birth and death, that's your attitude. So you don't do things. You have a certain attitude. And then you do do things. You act in a compassionate way. These are the elements of Buddhahood.

[50:54]

And it's like not worrying about the whole argument here. It's like there's something disingenuous about it. It's like let's talk a lot about birth and death so that you can be free from thinking about birth and death. But, you know, that's what we've been doing all weekend. So now we just go out and practice. No, you can practice right here. There's no going out. There's no out. Out of the moment there's just time. Yeah. I would like to have some reason to believe this thing that might be just a fairy tale about how if you just be a good boy, you'll be, you know, you'll be free.

[52:04]

Try being a good boy. You should just try it. Why bother? Why? I mean, why should I believe him? He says, if I don't, if I don't do, if I do not do unwholesome actions, why is that supposedly going to lead me to Buddhahood? I can actually I know a reason for that. But there are other ones that are harder. Unwholesome actions. The reason why for that is what are unwholesome actions? They are things, as you said, they are urges to do things based on greed, hate and delusion. Yeah. So what that does is reinforce your identification with all those urges and desires when you act on them. Refrain from action on them and you will learn how to see birth and death happening. But about the respecting seniors and being kind of juniors.

[53:07]

You know what the actual language is? Why does that help you? Do you want the actual language? Because it's nice. It's respect seniors and pity juniors. That's that's the actual question. So, so, so did speak out, speak out in one of his sentences, respect. Either way. Can you think of some reason why that makes sense that that would help? Well, why do you do it? I have to ask you. Because I didn't grow up well. I feel guilty. I feel bad if I if I treat seniors with disrespect. I think I'm a bad person. And who's a senior? Who's a senior also? But OK, so there's a context for that. This is a completely Confucian perspective. I was thinking it was just just trying to make the masses behave. Well, that's not necessarily what Confucian is. It's to be dominated by the power.

[54:18]

It has. That's one of the results of Confucianism. But I don't know that it's so deeply embedded in the Chinese and Japanese tradition. Right. And, you know, to some extent, not Confucianism, but this respect for elders is it's it's an old tradition. So are you saying that it's just cultural baggage and that's not really helpful in trying to become free from it? No, I'm not saying that. I'm just trying to explain that there's a con there. It's that language is coming from a certain place that Dogen was not going to get outside of because this is the ocean that he was swimming in. But there's also a more general common sense thing that you can take out of this that without making a judgment about the senior junior so much. It's that if if you see somebody who in some respect is superior to you, they're doing things admirable and so on, not to be jealous, but to say, oh, I can learn something from this.

[55:26]

I can emulate this and so on. You see somebody else that lacks things, then you help out. You don't say, oh, I'm glad they lack things that makes me look better. So in other words, your deal in the respective situations in this way, in both cases, you're also helping yourself as well as helping them. I hear that assertion. I'm not seeing the connection, the logical connection between how that helps me because it feels good to contribute to other people. That's nice, but that's not liberating me from birth and death. I put this in a kind of very real context because right now I'm working at a company that has juniors, mediums and seniors. And the juniors, which is what I am right now, really get treated really badly. And it's because the people who are treating me that way were treated that way themselves. And if you go to a monastery and you come in as a junior, in some places you get treated really badly.

[56:31]

That's right. Because you're reenacting your karma. You were treated badly, you were hurt, you go out and hurt someone else. And how do you break free of that? Well, instead of treating juniors the way you were treated, you treat them kindly. And instead of resenting the people who are your seniors, you treat them with respect. So I think it's actually speaking very specifically to Dogen's life in a monastery. He's telling his monks how to deal with their karma, basically. Right. And the story I heard when I was in Japan training Tetsuyoji, there was a French guy who had been a monk at Eiji, Dogen's monastery. And they hazed him so horribly for his first two practice periods, his first year. And, you know, just beyond our understanding. And then, he finished the practice period that day, that night, they had a celebration.

[57:36]

And they said, Oh, congratulations. Now it's your job to do this to the next cohort that's coming in. And he said, screw you. I'm not going to do that. You know, but that's also called, that's the cultural baggage. I really like, you know, I was looking at this. I have a sort of copy from Sojin of this, Dr. Abe, he crossed off pitying. So respecting those over you and respecting those below you. And I think that this, you know, to me, that's, it's like equality. And all of us have experienced, I've experienced this in creepy ways, like being junior in a situation, in a Buddhist situation, Buddhist company, actually. And being treated in a kind of just small way.

[58:39]

And then going and being the director of Buddhist Peace Fellowship, where I had some position. And all of a sudden, this person who, you know, is treating me as an equal. And it's like, that doesn't fly very well with me. It's like, we need to treat, to me, the principle is, treat everybody the same. You know, which is not negating the fact that there are people, you know, there's people who have been here a long time, there are people who have been here a short time. But we treat everybody with respect. And when you treat everybody with respect, then you're being a Buddha. The Buddha treated everybody with respect. Ken? This is interesting. But I'm afraid of death right now. Okay. And what does this tell me that is reassuring? Where's the reassurance in this about right now? About what puts us at ease in this?

[59:43]

Are you dying right now? No. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe you are. You are. If I'm in the teacups, it'll be okay. In one sense. It feels urgent. I mean, the topic is urgent. But the conversation isn't. And so I'm struggling with that. Paul? I take a lot of interest and comfort in watching what I'm identifying with in every moment as much as I can. And who am I? Where's me? Where's Paul? And it feels different. It slowly changes over time. And I'm thinking that that's the birth and death on a timescale that I can see. And so when I do that, I become less identified with, even though it's very strong, the sense of me-ness. Are you less afraid?

[60:44]

What? Are you less afraid? When I have periods of anxiety, I don't mind being anxious so much. It's just an anxiety that's there. And if I'm not identifying with it, it's okay that I'm anxious. It's not so powerful. It doesn't move me somehow as much. If I think, yeah, this is not me. And I don't have to give myself an answer to what I am. Just that these things are, this is not me, and this is not me. And then dying is just going to be... It's like this thing, if this is always changing all the time, then there isn't a me... The me that I'm afraid of dying, it's always dying all the time. It's nothing new when the body actually goes with it. If I get used to this idea, this is...

[61:47]

I haven't gotten there, but I think this is a fruitful direction for me to go in and try to constantly try to just pay very close attention to the strongest sense of Paul, that precious thing that I'm protecting all the time and how it's always changing. I can't make it less. That sense of identification has not gotten less. But there's something that's seeing it, which is not the same as it. Put your hands deep. I think in a way, I'm reassured by your lack of reassurance. So for me, it's less that this teaching drains my anxiety out. But there's some feeling of being in our anxiety together that does something.

[62:51]

So like, wow, you're scared to die. Me too. That story scared me so much. This is no joke for me, and it's no joke for you. That's not exactly reassuring. It's kind of bad news in a way, but it's far bad news. So then, respectful to the seniors and respectful to the juniors, not because I got out of the system somehow, but because we're in it together. So as much as your question about, I'm not reassured, reassured. Because I'm not reassured either. And now neither of us is reassured, and I find that reassuring. It's no joke, it is. We are. Thank you.

[63:53]

Ken? I don't know if I want to step in after that. Okay, you have to. I don't know if this is just where I am right now, but I couldn't change it. I've had periods where I was sure that something inside me was a cancer that was growing, and I was going to be dead in a year, and went through that real, very tangible, real fear. But maybe having done that, I think I've done that two, three times, had that kind of fear. I feel like I don't really have that right now. I feel like I'm not afraid of death. I'm reassured that I won't be around to experience it. For some reason, I think when I'm gone, it's okay.

[64:56]

What I find more tangible is the preciousness of this life, and the miraculousness of this life, and the just amazingness of this life, and me not paying attention to it. Me just gliding through with my eyes closed. What a tragedy that seems to be. My urgency is, here's this amazing thing. It is transient. How can I appreciate it? I should be appreciating this fully and completely. And then when it's gone, I think it's fate now. I think it's trust. It won't matter.

[66:01]

We're near the end of our time. Jerry, did you have something to say to John? I have not been talking at all these two days about the fact that for the last year, day by day, I've been watching my mother die. And my experience of that. A lot of what you said about there's a different person there. I think when you have a child, a young child, you can see a different person there every day. It's very clear. When you have an old person who starts to go fast, you can actually see, even from morning to evening, that there's a different person there. And this process for me has been fraught with times of severe merging, acute merging, in which I'm dying and she's dying. And then, as I've been going through it,

[67:04]

I actually have recognized that there is my young mother and how devoted she was to her family and how generous she was. And my menopausal mother who was crazy. There are all these mothers. And now there's this other person, totally unrecognizable, who is doing a natural thing. She's disappearing into some other place. That's part of this lifespan that she had, 95 years of going through. I have her pictures and albums I've been looking at and watching this whole passage of her life and my life. And in doing that, very acutely, not going away from it, being with the anxiety and the sadness day to day, which is what I've been doing more recently, rather than being terrified or really being with it,

[68:08]

it actually does feel more and more to me. As I actually really let myself see it and really see that there is some more ease with that process of the natural progression. My being able to leave for three months is my first of all recognizing that I can't do anything about my mother dying. Right. Or when she's going to die. And that's something that I can be free from, the angst at moments. So I just... Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Yeah. John? Let's see if I want to say... I was just really moved

[69:10]

by the last few people speaking here. And I'm really connected with what you and Mary were saying, Dave. And then you added this whole other piece to it, too. It just, that all... It feels like, yeah, that tendency to want reassurance in the face of death, something to comfort us. Just the fact, this whole notion of death and this desire for reassurance and this urgency of, well, let's just appreciate what's going on here. That all just feels like our calling. It feels like my calling. So there's no... Looking for something from outside that's going to deal with that anxiety, I don't... I wouldn't trust it. I'd like to, if it's OK,

[70:13]

aware of the time, let Suzuki Roshi have the last word. While I was looking around, I found kind of a rough transcription of his last talk. The last formal talk he gave at Zen Center. And at the end of it, this is the end of the talk. So Dogen Zenji says, Buddhism originally is beyond all positivity and negativity. Suzuki Roshi says, Buddhism originally is beyond all to be or should be. The real way is not only to be, but also should be. Or not only should be, but also to be. That is the real way. That is the stage you will acquire after following the teaching.

[71:14]

This is rather discouraging. Maybe if I had said this in the beginning, you would have said, Oh, I wish I didn't start to practice Buddhism. It's too difficult. You may say so. But Buddhism is not any special teaching. Actually Buddhism is our human way. So I thank you very much for these last two days and for being able to explore this together. And we can continue in... Just as we continue to practice, we'll continue to explore. I'd like to really thank Mary for being Sesshin Director. I'd like to thank Marie and Tamar for feeding us very wonderfully. Thanks so much. To Ross for leaping beyond the one and many

[72:23]

as a work leader. To Ken for doing his usual seamless job leading this serving. And for all of the work in this total dynamic working of Sesshin units. If you have ten people, if you have fifty people, whatever it is, it's just like everything is working and cooking. It's actually very complex. And yet we all know how to do it. It's wonderful to do it together and to have newer people here with us and to have older people here with us. Or seniors. Not juniors. Just seniors. So, thank you very much. So, thank you very much.

[73:19]

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