Good evening. I wanted to say that Saturday we're going to have . Is that correct? I'm working on it. Yeah. Good. So, Arshiso, Sue Lozier is working on that. And tomorrow evening, live and on Zoom at 5 p.m. We're going to have a practice period event that is known as bansan, which generally means evening tea, except this is going to be a tea-less tea. But what we will have is I'm going to make a very brief presentation and then discuss some matters of basic zendo form for your education to help you feel more comfortable in the zendo.

[01:13]

Take a lot of questions, whatever questions you have about the forms of our practice and how we move and how we comport ourselves in the zendo. really invite you to come at 5.40, whether it's online, which would be great, or online. So... Will that be recorded? Maybe we'll record that, yeah. I think it would be a good idea to record it. And then we can post it. Because it's going to be... These are the matters of form that would be good for everyone to know about. You know, not with the spirit of kind of regimenting everybody, but with the spirit of creating an atmosphere of comfort for yourselves in the Zendo. Great. So, today, my subject is going to touch on two chapters from Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind.

[02:21]

A chapter that's called negative and positive in a chapter that's called communication both of which are about communication and what i hope to do actually is sort of talk around these and bring different uh some some a variety of perspectives to bear and also leave a lot of room for communication for question and answer and discussion. So usually when I give a class or a talk, I do a lot of studying and ruminating in preparation. I take notes. Sometimes I take a lot of notes. Like today, I've got eight notes. I know that most of them are just gonna, not going to make it. But it's kind of material that I'm drawing from.

[03:22]

And I'm always ready to let them all go. Before the talk, before I do zazen, and when I'm doing zazen, I'm not thinking about the talk. I'm just letting myself flip it. The spirit of zazen, of just this open receptivity, things to bear on whatever I may have thought I was going to talk about. And also, while I'm preparing for a talk, things happen. And they spark other considerations or other perspectives. So today, I have these ideas about this talk and came out this morning and Zeng Yu Paul Disco was here working with Yoni on the gate that's going to go.

[04:39]

We're starting to develop a vegetable garden in D.H. 's yard right across the fence. And Zeng Yu Paul Disco, Paul is a master. And he is one of the early disciples of Suzuki Roshi. And we're going to have him give a talk here in the next couple of months. He was sent to Japan by Suzuki Roshi to learn temple building. He apprenticed himself and then became a temple builder in some remarkable temples in Kyoto. And then he came back here and he's built many beautiful structures around Zen Center, around California, some in Europe. And he's retired, but he's helping Yoni and people who are working on the vegetable garden to build this gate so we can easily move from our yard into the garden yard.

[05:49]

And he's a real He's a Dharma treasure. And I just, just thinking about him, it was so enjoyable talking with him today. And I want to encourage you, I'm not exactly sure how to do this, but he's been coming and Yoni is his assistant, right? So I really invite you, come by and just visit with Paul. and ask him questions about his life, his experience. He's a wonderful raconteur, and he loves to talk about this stuff. I don't know, maybe Yoni's gonna, he can maybe send out a bulletin when Paul is going to make an appearance. All in time, yeah. See if that's okay with Paul. I was going to say that it sounded kind of vague, but you want to have it happen, so if we could find a schedule and time and venue, then I think...

[06:52]

Yeah, it's not been regular, but I think if Yoni could send out a little bulletin the day before, that would be great. So, speaking of communication, so there's a piece in the chapter, Suzuki Hoshi says, Between Zen students there is no special purpose in speaking or in listening. Sometimes we listen. Sometimes we talk. That is all. It's like a greeting. Good morning. Through this kind of communication we can develop our way. Seeing Paul and thinking about these words, I want to share with you part of a piece in my book, and this is a piece that involves Paul.

[08:01]

So in the spring of 1989, there was a group of people from the Bay Area men, under Paul's direction, who went to Japan at Rinsowin, Suzuki Roshi's temple, for about a month. It was a really remarkable experience for all of us. We were really difficult. We gave Paul a really hard time. We were just these wily Americans who didn't behave in Japan, but we did our best. And he was kind to us. So let me read you this piece from my book, The Sketch. So Rinso-in is an old and beautiful Soto-zen temple built 500 years ago, up against the mountain with satsuma trees on the lower slopes. The heights are planted with renowned Shizuoka tea, rolling out for miles.

[09:05]

Rinsumen is cared for by the Suzuki family. In those years, the head priest was Suzuki Roshi, along with his wife Chitose and their young children. Down the winding road from the temple is a crossroads village of Sakamoto, which is also a few miles from Yaizu, a busy fishing port. We often wandered down to the small corner store in Sakamoto for snacks and last-minute groceries. Once we had settled at Minsun for a few days, Paul spoke to us about how to understand what we were seeing day by day at the crossroads. He told us to watch the old ladies who met on the narrow bridge in town. Often their backs were bent from years of inadequate diet during the war and post-war years.

[10:09]

But they had a lightness of motion that was clear even from a distance. They would encounter each other, stop, exchange words, and bow continuously, bobbing up and down like those drinking bird toys. Paul explained that the words exchanged on the order of how are you, how is your family, good morning, nice weather today, and such were not significant. The absence of their connection was in how kindly and warmly they bowed to each other. Once I realized that, I've always marveled at the intimacy of Japanese culture, which can otherwise seem so layered by formality. And I think the same thing is true for us. When we're in Sesshin, without words,

[11:17]

without even necessarily eye contact. We communicate by bowing to each other, particularly as we're served. We eat meals in here. The server comes up and bows and we bow together in our nation. And that is our communication. That's the intimacy of our communication. That level of communication is beyond words or without words. And, of course, there are also words. Suzuki Roshi writes, it's very important in Zen practice. Because I cannot speak your language very well, I am always seeking some way of communicating with you.

[12:21]

I think, sorry, I think this kind of effort will result in something very good. Subjective intention or situation is always involved, so there is no perfect word. Some distortion is always present in a statement. But nevertheless, We have to understand objective fact itself, the ultimate fact. By ultimate fact, we do not mean something eternal or something constant. We mean things as they are in each moment. You may call it being or reality. So when you listen to someone, you should give up all your preconceived ideas and objective opinions. You should just listen to her. Just observe what her way is. We put very little emphasis on right or wrong, or good and bad.

[13:25]

We just see things as they are with him and accept them. This is how we communicate with each other. So this also puts me in mind of one of my favorite teachings of Dogen Zenji, which is a chapter of Shobha Genzo, The Treasury of the Children, a chapter called Bodhisattva Shishobo, or The Bodhisattvas for Embracing Dharmas. And those are, or Kastanahashi translates it as four methods of guidance. And those guidances embracing Dharma as our generosity or giving, loving speech, beneficial action, and what Dogen calls identity action, which is really how we cooperate with each other, how we see ourselves in each other, and how we see each other in ourselves.

[14:42]

So the second of these teachings is directly relevant to what we were talking about with community. Loving speech. Loving speech means whenever meeting sentient beings, first arouse compassionate mind to them and offer caring and loving words. So sometimes this is not so easy, right? Can we try to bring up this expression of compassion in ourselves? All of those other methods, can we bring up generosity? Can we feel our identity? In general, we should not use violent or harmful words, which is interesting, in general. which suggests that maybe there's a moment for that, right?

[15:46]

Maybe there's a moment, maybe strong words are not necessarily in contradiction with loving speech, but just very occasionally. In society, there is the tradition of asking others if they are well. In the Buddha way, we have the words, take good care of yourself. And the disciples' filial duty to ask their teachers, how are you? That's what we were seeing, I think, in these women at the Crossroads in Sakamoto. But it's also, as some of you know, our late teacher, Sojin, he really didn't like it when you asked him, how are you? It really bugged him. Does anyone have a sense of why?

[16:50]

I think that my feeling was he felt it was a it was just a pleasantry that we weren't really asking. And he didn't want to answer in a superficial way. But that's just my idea. But anyway, it just goes to show that Even though Dogen, and I brought this up with him, I said, Dogen says it's my filial duty to ask you how you are. And, you know, he just waved it away. Yeah, Ross? I had an ongoing thing with you about that, and you could see that he was not going to be coming forward with a response to satisfy me as we would generally in our community, ask me after someone's help and all that. It seemed like he sort of assured a small talk. Yeah, that's right. And maybe, you know, with his outside of the temple engaged in that way, but it seemed like he was here.

[17:57]

It wasn't like it was always business, but there was a certain position that he held that maybe had him that way. Well, no, he wasn't. I mean, when you went to Sojin's house for dinner, as soon as dinner was over, around the table he would go into the kitchen and wash the dishes he was not big on small talk but he was he always welcomed intimate conversation that's why you know the practice that that he took on very consciously was to always respond to people if someone knocked on his door always to allow himself to be interrupted, to allow himself to respond to whoever was there. But, yeah, he was not interested in small talk. That's his way.

[18:58]

He was interested in big talk. Big talk, yeah. That's his way, yeah. I'm remembering that, that I would, in his lectures, And answer time, I would ask him, you know, to see if I could understand what he was talking about. Can you give a personal example? No. No. It was no. It was like you'd get thrown back on figuring it out for yourself. Yeah. This was his way. And one of the things, you know, I think that's interesting because it's kind of where Suzuki Roshi begins this chapter. Let's see if I can... The chapter in Communication. We say that if you do not understand your master's words, you are not his disciple.

[20:07]

To understand your master's words or your master's language is to understand your master himself. And when you understand him, you find his language is not just ordinary language, but language in its wider sense. So this is what we were always trying to do, was to understand Sojin Roshi's language. To take it into ourselves and sometimes it was hard not because he was this completely enlightened being who was speaking from a level that we could not comprehend but because and we have difficulty we have difficulty understanding sometimes we have difficulty understanding another person because they are just themselves. And I think that election was he didn't want to explain that.

[21:16]

And then every now and then he would say something was deeply personal and very moving. But this... What Suzuki Roshi writes which I think is interesting. We have trouble sometimes understanding another person. He says, usually when you listen to some statement, you hear it as a kind of echo of yourself. You're actually listening to your own opinion. If it agrees with your opinion, you may accept it. But if it does not, you'll reject it. Or you may not even really hear it. That is one danger when you listen to someone. And I find that when I listen to somebody, you know, I can catch myself wanting to see where I agree with them or where they agree with me.

[22:24]

And that is not the point. That's not listening. That's really not listening. Listening is being able to absorb what another person is saying and let it rest. Let it settle. Let it work within you and see what happens then. Does that make sense? I remember correctly, he was quoted to say, if you agree with what I'm saying, it's encouragement. If you don't agree, You feel it's criticism. It's what? Criticism. Right. Criticism. Right. And, of course, criticism has a wrap, but critique is kind of the refinement opportunity that a teacher has with their students. So how do we receive criticism? Okay. Or no.

[23:26]

And how do we balance that acceptance that you just said versus, I don't agree with that. Right, and I think I spoke about this last week or the week before, that Sojin and other teachers might say hard things to me, and some of us have that experience, or I may say hard things to you. And the first response is, ouch, it hurts. My practice is to take that a step back, to take the and note that there's some pain there and remind myself that there's some truth there also.

[24:30]

If it, you know, if there's a then it probably means it's touching some sensitive place, right? And if there's a sensitive place, then it's really helpful for me to reflect on it. Because it's probably pointing at something that I can learn. That's, you know, we learn the hard way. So communication is not so easy. But taking the backward step from Hongzhi, where the light issues were to arrive at from hurt to defending oneself, to letting that go, to learning from it. Yeah. And I really appreciate the opportunities that we have here to do that. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the opportunity of our

[25:34]

The communication is such that we don't like everything. And we may not like everything that someone does in the community, but there's a fundamental love and trust that underlies everything that I think we try to touch into if we can. I want to leave it open for conversation or discussion, whether, if anyone out there has something, or in here. Yeah, Raghav. I just wanted to touch upon what you were saying about Sojin in the sense that I got, or the sense I got was, I think he spoke about it somewhere, something to the effect of he wasn't so much interested in like a superficial, how would you say, like, not a relationship, but he was more interested in going deep.

[26:47]

Yeah. So that's how I took that in a sense, asking him how he was doing. He wasn't so interested. Rather, he wanted to develop the chance to go deep and say just a bow. that was kind of a deep connection. Right, so, yeah, I think that that's right. It sort of gets to the other chapter that we looked at, which was negative and positive. So, that's one side, right? And the story that I told about a piece on the bridge in Sakamoto, is the other side. That there's an intimacy of, in just these casual words, in the word good morning, or the word, or just bowing politely to each other, that's another side of, that's just a very sweet, wonderful side of Japanese culture.

[27:56]

And we have that kind of, we have aspects of that in here, you know, it's just, human interaction that is not, that's in these captions. Genpo and I watched a whole movie about this last week by Junihiro Ozu, is that right? Yasujiro Ozu. It's called Ohio, or Good Morning. It was all about these levels of communication. Is anyone familiar with that movie? One of the focuses is on this group of kids. And they communicate with each other by... One kid pushes the other kid in the forehead, and then the kid who's pushed in the forehead farts.

[29:00]

So that's a really basic kind of communication. They communicate with farts. And the adults communicate on all these different levels. And the movie ends with this couple who are obviously falling in love, standing on a railroad platform and looking up and saying, good weather today, beautiful weather today. And they just went to go through a whole bunch of these expressions that are essentially meaningless, but you can see they were about connecting with each other. So that's the other side. Different predilections and different styles of expression, right? It sounds like one of the differences between those kinds of expressions and what Sojin was objecting to was like when you asked someone, how are you?

[30:12]

A lot of times people aren't great, but they don't, you're not asking about, you know, not everyone who asks how are you really wants to hear that, which is kind of different than... That's right. I mean, the thing is, communication is very complicated. What are you, when you say how are you, what are you, on what level are you actually communicating? What are you really asking? Do you really want to know? Do I really want to tell you? Or is this just a modality for us to connect? Is there something... I heard a sound, I don't know if anyone was actually speaking. Could you comment on why did Bodhidharma come from the West? That sounds kind of prosaic and not so curiosity, but in fact, what we talk about is that's a question about where is your practice?

[31:20]

So how do you think that sort of common, seemingly innocent question is actually one of the most fundamental questions in our practice? What immediately comes to mind was you had to be there. You know, that question was a question that took place in a circumstance, in a place, and in a relationship, right? And of these koans is actually what's wonderful and really can be difficult about them is that you're being invited to embody them. Like, how do I make this question alive for me in the circumstance? Does that make sense? And, you know, you know, it's like the, I was talking about it recently,

[32:32]

the Buddha's first encounter with somebody that he met on, with the beggar that he, alms person that he met on the road when he was on his way to give his first sermon. And the guy asked, who are you? And he said, I am the enlightened one. You know, you would think that would be the incentive for some kind of deep encounter. And the guy just said, okay, good for you, and walked on, you know. That was not a moment that was alive. So the moments that we have in our koan, the dialogues that we have in our koan tradition, are about live moments that happened. And then the challenge in our practice is to make them alive for ourselves. wonderful and particularly I think it's it's hard because there's a whole cultural setting that we don't necessarily inhabit that somebody reading the blue cliff record in 13th or 14th century would would know more the cultural setting the whole literature and that whole

[34:02]

that whole environment. So we're working on that and we're working on our own on our own experiences. Any questions out there before I go on? Or any comments? You guys are very quiet today. anyone else can hear. Yeah, Marla. I'm feeling curious about what you said about some moments being alive and others not. And in the context of I think how in practice there's a felt sense of the intimacy of everything that's expressing itself in my awareness.

[35:07]

and that zazen is this practice of intimate embodiment. And so I guess I'm kind of feeling curious about, I don't know, this apparent paradox between my life as an intimate expression and this description of alive and like, oh, that was like a dead moment when the Owinged One was interacting with this person. Well, I think the non-live moment there was for the person who encountered him. You know, he just didn't get it. You know, I'm thinking about, you know, my book, it's called Turning Words, it's about encounters or things that that I heard or encountered, and I'm thinking about one in particular, which happened in here, when Master Shen Yen, this Chan teacher, gave a lecture, and Laurie asked him, what's the most important thing, and she asked him this kind of generic Zen question, the most important thing for

[36:34]

a lay practitioner to keep in mind. Not a, you know, it's a garden variety question. And he answered very immediately, regulate your life. I don't know how that registered in this room. But it struck me like a bolt. And I've never forgotten it. And I've never forgotten that moment. So for reasons that I can't explain to you, these very ordinary words reached deeply and have provided me guidance for 30 years. And I think that the objective, what we're trying to do, I think, is just to, the function of zazen as really cultivating a mind of open receptivity and then carrying that into, not just in here it's happening, but carrying that into the world.

[37:52]

And so as best we can to make ourselves ready to be able to wake up at any moment. Now we're not going to be ready every second. And much as we idealize great teachers, none of them are. But they're, you know, they're pretty good. You know, they're pretty open. And when you meet a person like that, you really, you recognize it. You can see that in there. Often there's a joy about them. And I'm thinking about telecommunication. There's a video that was part of a television documentary, I think. I don't know what it was, but they were shooting footage for KQED of Suzuki Roshi in the 60s.

[39:06]

and there's this silent footage of him he was on they were driving to and stopped at a gas station and he got out of the car you know whoever was driving got out of the car and they stopped for gas and there were these uh kind of uh young shirtless guys one of them was pumping gas and there's this short Japanese guy in monk's robes, traveling robes like this gets out of the car and he just you can see there was an encounter between young men and Suzuki Roshi and everyone appeared completely at ease but there was an intimacy in their contact that was just

[40:07]

It communicated something beyond words. Has anyone seen that? It's really cool. I think it's on the Suzuki Roshi Archive site. But it's beautiful. We don't know what was said. Maybe they had a conversation. It doesn't matter. You could see, again, like the old ladies in Sakamoto, You could just see how their bodies were leaning towards each other. And that's really, that's just very emotional. It gives me chills to think about it, actually. An instrument of receptivity like that is a wonderful aspiration. So let's take a break. Let's stand up and stretch. Out there, you can marshal your questions.

[41:16]

If you need to use a restroom, please. So are there any questions out there or comments?

[43:16]

Yeah, Joel. Thank you. This is great. I wanted to ask about saying, how are you? Because I noticed that I say quite a lot. And most of the time, I actually am curious how someone is and concerned and hope that they're fine. And You know, I hung out with Sojin quite a lot. And I must have at some point said, how are you? I remember a time where he was bothered by it. I mean, maybe there were lots of times, but I had no sense of that. And I think I just find the conversation fascinating. Because sometimes you say, how are you? Really? Or, like, I enjoy talking to the kids who are servers at restaurants. And we get into all these talks.

[44:23]

So it's possible. And I was just struck that, you know, I do say it a lot. There's no problem. Well, to each his own. But anyway, anyway. Thank you. Anyone else out there? I'm going to move on then a little, if that's OK. Whoops. My mic is on. So at the end of this piece on communication, Yuzuki Reishi writes, we cannot even study Buddha's words. To study Buddha's words in their exact sense means to study them through some activity.

[45:26]

So when we study Buddha's words, they're not the Bible. They're not dogma. Every single word in the Pali Sutras and in the other sutras are located in a time and a place and a relationship. Almost always there are discussions with Buddha, there are questions or there are stories about him in a particular location. And so sometimes he might say one thing, sometimes he might say the opposite. Because it actually is situational. So this is, I think, what this means to me. To study the Buddha's words in their exact sense means to study them through some activity. We have to see how do these apply in our own lives, not how are they in some abstract idea.

[46:39]

So we should be concentrated with our full mind and body on what we do and we should be faithful especially to our feelings. That's lovely. Know what our feelings are and be faithful to them. Even when you do not feel so well, it's better to express how you feel without any particular attachment or intention. So you may, he says, so you may say, I'm sorry, I do not feel well. That's enough. You should not say, you made me so. So this is like, this is like the early of the I statement, right? That is too much. You may say, oh, I am sorry, I am so angry with you.

[47:45]

There's no need to say that you are angry when you are angry. You should just say, that is enough. It's that you are not angry. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. Let's see. All right, there's no need to say that you are not angry when you are angry, thank you. That's really rather different, isn't it? You should just say, I am angry. That is enough. True communication depends on our being straightforward with one another. Our way is very direct. But the best way to communicate may be just to sit without saying . Then you will have the full meaning of Zen. So this is a really tricky question, right? When do I say something and when don't I say something?

[48:46]

This comes up for me a lot in... or maybe particularly in the Zendo. When I see something like last week, someone walked in front of the altar, which is a form that we don't do. And I thought, should I say something to that person? And I just decided, I'm certainly not going to say anything then, but if I have an opportunity afterwards, right afterwards, then I can explain the form to them. But if that opportunity doesn't come up, I let it go. And we have to decide, you know, I have this inner tension that I work with.

[49:52]

Because very early on, because I was sort of fixated on forms, Sojan Roshi said, you should let things fall apart. And I said, okay. And then you're left with the conundrum, what do I leave, what do I let fall apart, and what do I try to help people correct? And so I'm always thinking about that. When to express something, how to express something, what the exact proper setting is. Sometimes the setting is actually to just speak quietly with a person and tell them about this particular point. Sometimes it's to find a moment and make a general announcement.

[51:03]

I thought about this the other day. I think most of you know, in the morning, the doshi, after they do their opening vows, they do a jundo, a morning greeting, going around, a zendo. And when they do that greeting, as the doshi, as you hear their footsteps, you put your hands in gasho, and as they pass by, you look into your mudra. And the other morning, when I was doing it, they were three kind of newer people who obviously didn't know that. And I came back here and for a moment I thought, should I say something as a sort of general announcement or not? And that occasion I decided not to.

[52:05]

I can't say if that was right or wrong. but it's sort of taking this suggestion of Suzuki Roshi's. The best way to communicate may just be to sit without saying anything. On the other hand, come to the Bansan tomorrow night, and we're going to talk about all this. And you'll never make a mistake again in this end-up. And even if you do make a mistake, you can remember there's no sin in sin. Remind me what you said earlier, according to Suzuki Roshi, we don't emphasize right or wrong. Right. Right. Wrong. So that's what I'm about to get to, actually. The next chapter is negative and positive. Yeah, Susan. Well, actually what came up for me is It doesn't really matter if you said something or you didn't say something.

[53:09]

What's more deadly is hesitation. What do you mean? Well, hesitation gets the mind thinking, like, well, what if I say this? What will be the influence? As opposed to, well, what if I say nothing? This will be it. So it generates thought. And so, you know, just Go with your gut and don't hesitate. Right. I think that's right. And basically that's what I did. I wasn't worried about, I just thought, do I say something or do I not? Well, no. And if I didn't, then I let it go. And I didn't think about it again. But there's an inner discernment that is, if you don't get caught on it, on a cycle of thinking about it, It's useful to know, to see that internal response that I had.

[54:11]

And I could have said something or not something, or not, but either way to let it go. I remember asking Sojin about form and what I saw other people not doing. And I said, how do you deal with it? I try not to notice. Well, I know, he noticed a lot. He noticed a lot. And he kept silent a lot, except when he didn't. You know, and he changed, you know, when we, uh, when somebody came here, uh, he had a habit, if he wasn't happy with the pace of the makugyo, he would kind of stamp his foot more insistently and he stopped doing it.

[55:16]

But then he offered us training as to what he felt the proper rhythm and pace and also proper sound on the bells were, and that was really helpful. So, yeah, I know he took in a lot of things, and there's a number of us who take in those kinds of things, and we have to live with ourselves. Ross. Before you go to the next chapter, I'm wondering about Master Ma is Unwell. So he was asked, How are you doing? And he says, sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. So how do you see or understand that for... Versus, it's this old story and this old sick guy says this thing and that's it.

[56:20]

That was a real response. Sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. You know, it's like... Talking about the nature of being that, on the one hand, we live on and on, and on the other hand, we're gone in a moment. That was what he was at that moment in response to that question. So that was a real response to, how are you doing? You know, brilliant. And because it was such a good response, we're still talking about it a thousand years later. That's what I love about the koans. The koans that we have are live words. They're live to us now, and we can bring them to life.

[57:23]

And what we don't have a record of are all the ones that were duds. Somebody asked, Master Ma, how are you feeling? You know, that's not one that we have, although that could be good. That could be true, too. Or, I'm fine. You know, there's lots of mist. For the koan that we have, there must be 10,000 wands that miss the mark. The beautiful thing about Shosan, which you'll be doing next week, is we're all witnessing these exchanges. And one person, the abbot, are exchanging. We all get to experience that, and most likely people will have other thoughts or other responses that are not articulated. Right.

[58:24]

And everybody sitting here will have you know, will have their own response to what that dialogue is, right? And they may have their own opinion about the question, they may have their own opinion about the answer, all that is, that's fine. But the really important thing is watch the interaction. And the same thing is true with the Shuso ceremony. That's the same form of a real, an intimate interaction between a particular person and a particular person. And this is our practice. It's really person to person. It's not some abstraction called Zen. That's what you said, it's in the practice. Yeah, yeah. Just again, I want to remind you people out there in Zoom land, if you have something to say,

[59:28]

Please raise your hand. I am... Maybe we're muted. No, they're hearing us. I can tell they're hearing us. No, don't. I see that either. I saw that. You're hearing me. I can tell. Anyway. So the second chapter is called Negative... And it says, the more you understand about our thinking, the more difficult you find it to talk about it. The purpose of my talking is to give you some idea of our way, but actually, it is not something to talk about, but something to practice. The best way, like on the last line of the other chapter, the best way is just to practice without saying anything. When we talk about our way, there's apt to be some misunderstanding. Because the true way always has at least two sides, the negative and the positive.

[60:34]

We talk about the negative side, the positive side is missing. And we talk about the positive side, the negative side is missing. We cannot speak in a positive and negative way at the same time. So we do not know what to say. It is impossible to talk about Buddhism. So not to say anything, just to practice it, is the best way. Showing one finger, or drawing a round circle, may be the way, or simply to bow. Except that we have classes and lectures in Dokkasan. You know, one time we asked my daughter Sylvie, what do you think Buddhism is. And she said, talking. Eight and ten.

[61:35]

All she saw were people coming to the door, coming into the house and talking to us. And that's what she saw. She wasn't familiar with meditation, but she saw a lot of talking. And then she heard a lot of talking around the dinner table. So Buddhism is about talking. You know, we have this expression, this practice is about making a mistake on purpose. So every time we open our mouth, we're making a mistake on purpose. We should always know that whatever we say, there's another side to it. And he says, to talk about something will be one of our practices. And to listen to the talk will also be practice.

[62:36]

When we practice Zasana, we just practice Zasana without any gaining idea. So it's very important that you could say, maybe with greater accuracy, listening. That's actually at the center of the practice that I do here when I'm in the zendo. I try to open my ears and open my senses and hear what is in the environment around me. So, even though we may, the challenge is in talking, but the challenge is also in listening. And the challenge in listening as we've got, heard in the last in that last chapter is like can I get myself out of the way when I'm listening you know can I listen in a way that I'm not looking for whether I agree or disagree can I just hear the person and

[63:56]

In a sense, when you do that, you create a space of vulnerability and intimacy. And that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to be really open to the moment, to what's coming up within us, and what comes up between us. There's an important section in the next part of this chapter. The sota way always has double meaning, positive and negative. And our way is both hinayana-istic. Actually, we have hinayana practice with mayayana spirit.

[64:59]

This is a pretty famous expression of Suzuki Roshis, and even though Hinayana is a kind of intuitive, it has a meaning. I don't think it's an accurate meaning, frankly, but he's getting at something. He says, rigid formal practice with informal mind. Although our practice looks very formal, our minds are not formal. Although we practice Zazen every morning, in the same way. That is no reason to call this formal practice. So, our method, our meditation, is, there are meditation practices that are very formal. A particular methodology, or many methodologies, that you follow very precisely, a precise sequence that you follow with your mind.

[66:05]

And, that is a completely legitimate and uncommon style of meditation. But what he says here about our meditation, which is interesting, is informal mind. So informal mind is what I'm talking about as open awareness. And The discipline that we have is in establishing the form of our bodies, the forms that we enact as we enter the Zendo. Then when we sit down and we face the wall, we are actually manifesting this formless quality, or informal quality. non-formal quality.

[67:08]

And that's what he's calling Mahayana. I don't want to make this distinction, Hinayana, Mahayana, but what he is contrasting is the kind of formality that we have within which we hold this informal quality. Does that make sense? Have any of you ever done a practice where you had kind of a more regimented meditational technique? Yes? What was it? Mahamudra. Mahamudra. And can you say something about what that was? A series of meditations, one building on another, one step of emptiness, Emptiness of self, emptiness of perception, until emptiness of... So on one meditation step upon another, looking at different stages or manifestations of emptiness, the mahamudra.

[68:29]

Anyone else? Well, teacher has a mantra they give you that you say. Right, but that's still, it's kind of a singular practice, right? Oh, yeah, I don't know enough about it, but it's not a step. It's not, yeah, it's not. Anyone out there? Yeah, Heather, Heather, Henry. Oh, Heather and then Hannah, yeah. Well, this is not in direct response to your question, but I remember at the beginning of the pandemic, Sojun gave a talk on learning how to Zoom together, and he said, find the freedom in the restrictions. And that actually carried me through an awful lot of the pandemic. You know the things that are rigid, you might not be able to change them, but work with the freedom that you can find that construct.

[69:35]

Yeah, and that actually, that's where this chapter ends up, in fact, we're not going to get to the last, to the last sentences, but yeah, it's creating the rules or structure so that within which there's a freedom. Yeah, Anna. My first Buddhist experience was Korean Zen. and he assigned each of us what he called a practice that we were to do during and mine was to on the in-breath say to myself what what and then on the out-breath did he see and just repeat it over and over and over again so it was a very crowded with words meditation experience, very different from ours.

[70:37]

What the sentence meant was, when the Buddha became enlightened, what did he see? And I didn't get it. I mean, I did not understand how that was a practice that made it easy. I did it for quite a while. Good. Thank you. Nancy? Yeah, I did jhana practice with Ayakema. And it was horrible because it's very, very tense, very tight. All you do is pay attention to the breath and all that she was, where were you in the progression of the jhanas? Yeah, so that's a very structured, there's a mental construct that you are theoretically arriving at, right? You know, for some people... There's a state of mind you're arriving on.

[71:38]

Right, right, right. And for some people, that's great. You know, that really works for some people. And for other people, it doesn't. You know, I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just what I know. And this is what I read in Suzuki Roshi... and what we learned firsthand from Sojin. And it's not easy because you also have this informal mind is, you know, you can be drifting and dreaming. So how do you use the form of your body, the form of the practice, to allow your informal mind to flourish? So it's interesting where he goes, and this is something that I was talking with Paul Disco about today.

[72:48]

If you have Mahayana mind, something which people call formal may be informal. So we say that observing the precepts in a Hinayana way is violating the precepts in a Mahayana way. If you observe our precepts in just a formal way, you lose your Mahayana Before you understand this point, you always have a problem. Whether you should observe our way literally, or whether you should not concern yourself about the formality that we have. So, this is a perfect, to me, expression of this enduring conundrum of negative and positive. So, Suzuki Roshi, and this is something that Paul was saying, Suzuki Roshi didn't really talk about the precepts.

[73:56]

In fact, if you look at his, he didn't teach the precepts as the precepts, sort of as we know them as the 16 Bodhisattva precepts. He talked about the precept, talked about how you live your life. is the precept and uh that we live our life with a certain order so elsewhere he says you know uh when you get up you go to the restroom and you watch your face and you brush your teeth he said that is you know um to me my feeling is He was giving instruction that was relevant for the people that he was speaking to at the moment that he was speaking. This was the middle 1960s, right? And he was walking this wonderfully fine line, giving people a formal practice, something very particular to do.

[75:14]

particularly young people, and it was mostly young people that, not entirely, but mostly young people that he was meeting with were in rebellion. And so he didn't want to give them rules or rigidities. He was trying to show them how to have an open and informal mind. This is my interpretation. But it happened, this is something that, again, was talked about with Paul, you know, he, Paul was feeling, well, maybe we would have benefited from a clearer instruction about the precepts. And maybe we have to find a different balance in our moment. And actually each person needs to be presented with the precepts in a different and particular way that's suitable. So when we talk about the precepts, when we study them in depth, we realize traditionally there are different levels of the precepts.

[76:26]

There is the literal level. But there's also bodhisattva, which is about the level of precepts which is about how to be beneficial for your life and the life of others. And then there's this Buddha-nature level in which there is no good or bad, there are no precepts, and they naturally arise. We just naturally act in accord with them. So, what level at any given moment we are aligned is according to what our need is. Yeah, Ross. The first precept of Tassajara was how to store a broom. So if Suzuki Roshi sees a broom with the bristles down, they're getting bent, and he says it goes handle down.

[77:31]

So it's a cooler precept, but if you look at it more deeply, it's like We don't objectify things. I'm done with you, so it just gets shoved to the side. It's put away and it's complete. It's a completed act. And it's not being objectified. The soldier used to say, don't objectify. Yeah. Anything like an object. Exactly. Which means you treat everything, including that broom, like it's a part of yourself. And that is... But that, I think, is what Suzuki Roshi is talking about when he talks about the Mahayanistic view, that separation between self and other, but also between self and things. Yeah, Jonathan. This balance or this type of is something that has always struck me and has since the first time that I read this.

[78:34]

I think I get the sense that he was very conscious of the tightrope that he was walking. I brought my copy of Not Always So. He has a talk in here which they call the Zen of going to the restroom. A quote that I flagged. Some students who practice Zazen very hard are liable to ignore everyday life. If someone attains enlightenment, they may say, I have attained enlightenment under a great Zen master, so whatever I do is okay. I have complete freedom from good and bad. Only those who do not have an enlightenment experience stick with good and bad. Speaking in that way is to ignore everyday life. They do not take care of their life. Yeah. So this is in line with what I often say is that enlightenment is not an internal experience.

[79:36]

It's not a state of mind. You may have an experience that opens you, but actually enlightenment is about enlightened activity. It's what we do. And if we look at the precepts, you know, we have these 16 Bodhisattva precepts And really, we could have many, many more precepts. But all of these precepts are about relationship to ourself, to others, and to the things around us. They're about relationship. That's why my teacher Harada Roshi said offhandedly, if there were no people, there'd be no precepts. The precepts are to guide us how to be in relationship with ourselves and with those around us.

[80:51]

And also in our ceremonies these days, traditionally the precepts are prohibitory. Right? It's like, I vow not to kill, I vow not to steal, and so forth. And the way that we now we have the prohibitory side, but we also have the affirmation. I vow not to kill, but to protect life. I vow not to steal, if not yet given, and so forth. The prohibition is not sufficient. The affirmation side is what completes our vision of the Bodhisattva precepts.

[81:57]

We have only a couple more minutes. Any thoughts? Anyone who hasn't spoken yet would like to say something or ask something? Whether it's in here or out there? Yeah, Zachary. I wish this was less of a comment, but I'm just, the thing you were teaching you were uh relating about objects and the way that we care for them and relate to them and that they're really important really resonated with me and i haven't heard that much in the practice yet i remember something about all things preaching the dharma was like the last time i really felt that in your winter class yeah and it's really easy for me to get confident of making beautiful places and things and struggle to practice with that.

[83:01]

And I think remembering to hold the objects that are here and the places that are here with the same tenderness with which I hold those dreams is really important. Well, you know, Sojin often gave the example, and I've often spoken about this, like, how do you hold a cup? Are you drinking tea or drinking water? A cup like this you hold with two hands. To give it, you know, just not offhandedly, not just like, grab the cup and drink it down, you know, but actually to hold it with respect. And I think that in a macrocosmic way, I am thinking about Quite a few years ago, we had a Buddha's birthday ceremony at the Nevada Nuclear Test Site.

[84:02]

And when you go to the Nevada Nuclear Test Site, it's an incredible place. It's out in the desert. It's out near in Nevada. And they blew up hundreds of atomic bombs there. And there are a lot of underground tests. kind of these craters where the land collapsed. And you could think this land has been desecrated. And the other hand is this land is sacred. And even in the face of this destruction, it's still sacred. And honor that. You want to give a last word? When I communicate, I've noticed that I have a lot of guards up that I feel I've been, I've sort of developed to behave appropriately in awareness given whatever context I'm in.

[85:16]

And I find that, especially in show song type situations, it's very hard for me to drop those guards and be guardless to put myself in a place where I can be memorable enough to really be open to receiving a teaching and it's been interesting working with Paul because in the course of work sometimes I'll let my guards down just because I'm focused on something else or for whatever reason, and then he's there to say something, like right on the proverbial nose. And those, I was just thinking about Margo's questions, like those feel really, those moments feel really alive. I'm not guarding myself from that experience of really being shaken.

[86:20]

Right. So that openness and vulnerability is really important. And it's like, for Josan, I mean, all of us, I think, have had the experience, like, sitting there and, you know, not exactly sure what my question is going to be, and having some anxiety, and just important, breathe before you step up. And Just allow that to drop away and really ask a question. That's the best we can do. And sometimes it's on the mark. Sometimes the question's on the mark. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes the answer is on the mark. Sometimes it's not. But this is an opportunity. So we're going to end and we'll see you for the last class next week. Thank you. Means are numberless.

[87:25]

I vow to awaken with them. Divisions are inexhaustible. You all. Good night, everyone. Good night. Thank you.

[88:09]

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