and we're quite fortunate to be able to welcome back to his adopted home, the Bay Area, Taigan Dan Layton, who's been the teacher at Ancient Dragon Gate Zen Center on the north side of Chicago since 2007. His Dharma name means ultimate source polishing the mountains. He began his Dharma practice in 1975 on the Upper West Side of Manhattan and moved here in 1978 and began practice at San Francisco Zen Center. He received priest ordination by his teacher, Tenshin Rev. Anderson, in 1986 and Dharma transmission in 2000. He spent several years at Tassajara and two years in Japan and immigrated away from here, as I say, in 2007. Many of us have his books. on our library shelves or have studied them.

[01:00]

He, along with Okamura Orochi, have translated Dogen's extensive record, the Ehekuroko, and Dogen's Peer's Standards, which we all study the Tenzo section of that. He also has his own works on Dogen, including a wonderful work of Dogen's Working of the Lotus Sutra and Visions of Awakening, Space and Time. He also wrote one of Sojin Roshi's favorite books, Cultivating the Empty Field. In addition, he's published Faces of Compassion, Bodhisattva Archetypes, and Zen Questions most recently. And his forthcoming book will be Teachings of Dongshan, the Founder of Our Lineage. So we're quite fortunate to have him and look forward to hearing what he has to say today. Welcome. Thank you, Andrea. It's a pleasure to be back here at Berkeley Sense Center and see many old friends.

[02:06]

You hear in the back? Can you hear me in the back? Should I speak louder or should I? That's good. OK. Hi. Hi. Great to see many old friends. And he was asking me what I should say, what she should say in introducing me, and seeing Peter Overton here, I should mention one of the best practice places I ever had was Tassajara Bakery. Thank you, Peter. And I also translated with Kaz Tanahashi, one of whose, well, whose, Linda is here. And also, before I emigrated from California, I taught at Mountain Source Sangha, and one of our members there, Mountain Source Sangha still exists in Buenas and San Rafael and Avenue Avenue in San Francisco.

[03:08]

Anyway, but now I teach at Ancient Dragon Zen Gate, which is a gate, not a center, in Chicago. But I'm here today to talk about Zazen as the study of shifting perspectives. So Zazen opens us up to wider views of reality. So you actually talked about giving the cow a wide pasture and there are many aspects of this and how we can see ourselves in reality in many different ways. So two of my focuses in my own teaching and Dharma study have been Dogen and the Mahayana Sutras and a lot of Dogen is about shifting our perspectives, how to see differently. So there's so many examples in Dogen and I'll just give a very few. Ginjo Koan, he talks about being out in the boat and looking at the shore and we at first think that the shore is moving.

[04:12]

rather than the boat. Or if we're out in a boat in the middle of the ocean or even in Lake Michigan, you don't see the shore and you think that it's just a circle and you don't see all the details of the shoreline and we just think we live in this circle or bubble and we don't see each other's circles and we don't know the details. And of course the water looks different if we're a human or if we're a fish or if we're a dragon. In being time You know, he teaches that time is your time of being, that time doesn't move just from past to present and to future, it moves in many directions all the time. Obviously a period of zazen sometimes goes by very slowly or sometimes goes by very quickly, almost as if the dowan hit the bell too soon. So anyway, and mountains and waters sutra, He talks about the old saying from our lineage of the green mountains constantly walking.

[05:17]

We think the mountains are very solid, but of course they're constantly walking. A stone woman gives birth at night. Various things that seem not rational according to our usual way of thinking. So there's so many examples from Dogen, I could go on and on and on. He has an essay about an old saying, Zen saying, a painted rice cake does not satisfy hunger, in which he demonstrates quite clearly how only a painted rice cake can satisfy hunger. And only a painted rice cake can satisfy painted satisfaction and painted hunger and so forth. Anyway, there are many, [...] many more examples from Dogon and the Mahayana Sutras also or the Bodhisattva Sutras about our Bodhisattva practice in the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras and in the Lotus Sutra and the Flower Ornament Sutras many, many, many different Bodhisattvas and Buddhas appear from

[06:25]

different world systems. What's that about? So I've been thinking about this. This is the basis of our Zen practice. And sometimes people, maybe more especially in America, think that Zazen is this kind of therapeutic technique. Well, it is that. I mean, our Zazen can help calm us and, as I say, open us up to seeing other options. But part of that is this wider perspective Bodhisattvas and Buddhas coming from different world systems, what is that? Are they galaxies or solar systems? Maybe. But in the Lotus Sutra, which Dogen studied, and it's very important, Dogen talks about it a lot, but for example, it says right in the Lotus Sutra that whenever the Lotus Sutra is taught that there are many bodhisattvas and buddhas who appear from different world systems whenever it's taught.

[07:29]

So what is that about? And there's also, of course, bodhisattvas that spring forth from out of the open space under the earth when the Lotus Sutra is taught. what is our usual sense of reality even in buddhism even dogon is always overturning our usual sense of reality and the bodhisattva teachings are overturning even our usual buddhist sense of reality all the time what's going on what is this self we cherish what is the world that we see what is the world that we think is the world if we you know pay attention to uh the newspapers or the internets or whatever. And then there's the Flower Ornament Sutra, where there are bodhisattvas appearing. Well, there are many bodhisattvas, it says, on the tip of each hair.

[08:37]

So I'm kind of losing out on that. But then there's also many bodhisattvas on the tip of every blade of grass, or innumerable Buddhas and Bodhisattvas in every atom. What's going on? Why are they talking about this in these Bodhisattva Sutras? This is the basis of our zazen practice. What is this wide pasture that Zuki Roshi talks about? How do we see reality? So, you know, I've been studying this in terms of This book I've been working on for a couple of years about the teachings and the stories about Dongshan, the Chinese Soto founder, and he talks about suchness, this practice and teaching of just sitting and studying the wall in front of us, and the reality that we engage and meet in our world, in our life, in this body, in mind,

[09:44]

And with the people we meet every week, family, friends, co-workers. So in these sutras, there's strange things that go on. And it's possible to, there's some versions of Zen where you're not supposed to read anything. There's one place practiced in Japan, one monastery, where if a magazine comes in the mail, they confiscate it because you're not supposed to read anything. That's the extreme of that. But actually Dogen talks about how to study sutras and how to read. These sutras are the basis of our practice. So how do we see reality? and what do we do with this reality and how do we respond? So what I want to get to is how do we respond to the suffering of the world, because that's really the issue. How do we respond to the problems in our own life and the people around us and in the world?

[10:56]

So again, this possibility of shifting our perspectives very widely I'm trying to think about this and how does that give us some resources? My favorite American Buddhist movie, even more than Groundhog Day or even more than The Big Lebowski, is Men in Black. and some of you probably haven't. Are there people here who have not seen Men in Black? Okay, so I don't want to give away much. Some of you have seen it? Okay, well, I'm not going to say so much about it, except that it's a movie in many ways about the Dharma, about training successors, shifting perspectives, especially, it's a very Huayen, for those of you who know about that school of Buddhism, it's a very Huayen movie.

[12:04]

It's about shifting perspectives on size and dimension, and being open to ambiguity. So there's a lot of Dharma in the Men in Black. I really recommend it. I'll just, without spoiling much, I want to, there's one scene in which there's this pug who says, You humans, when are you going to learn that size doesn't matter? Just because something is important doesn't mean it's not very, very small. So we see things in this very limited dimension of size and space. Our senses are very limited. I can't see. You can see what's behind me. I can't. perceptions are limited, obviously. I mean, we know that dogs smell and hear things that we don't, and so this pug had information that we don't have.

[13:11]

And of course this goes for intellectual and spiritual awareness as well. So I'm not suggesting that we become superhuman, or non-human or, you know, here we are, how do we practice? How do we see reality? And yet, I think it's important to know that, to have a deep sense of our own not knowing and of our own limitations when we are responding to the world and that our own that just knowing that allows us a sense of the possibility of shifting perspectives and that's very important. So these kind of inquiries have brought me to looking again at modern physics and some of you here probably know a whole lot more about this than I do.

[14:18]

I don't really understand it but I've been reading this book, Hidden Reality, by Brian Green, who's a physicist and a popular science writer, and so this is all very theoretical and speculative, but apparently according to modern physics, so this is science, right? Even though it's speculative, he says that according to all modern theories in physics and mathematics, reality is much more complicated than we think it is. There are 11 or more dimensions, it's not just three or four dimensions. And all of these theories lead to some version or other of reality as being a multiverse. It's not the universe isn't just everything that exists. There may be many universes or parallel universes. Reality is much deeper than we can even possibly imagine. That's what science is saying.

[15:20]

So, okay, this is not about escaping to some other universe, but just to see that this reality is much, much more complex than we know. And I think I have some sense that that's important. to know that we don't know what's going on, that we know something's happening and we don't know what it is. That's actually helpful, that that can be helpful, that there are other and new possibilities. So again, the point of all this is how to respond to the suffering of the world, how to practice here.

[16:26]

Here is the place, here is the way unfolds, Dogen says. But what is this here? I don't know. But this is not some theoretical, abstract investigation of reality. So the Lotus Sutra says that Buddhas appear in the world simply to help relieve the suffering of the world and to help all beings onto the path of awakening. So we have to face loss and sadness and confusion and somehow having fresh perspectives can support our Buddha book here. And Zazen opens us up to seeing other options. So if you think you have to choose between A and B, or maybe you even have thought of a C, well there's also D, E, F, and Q, and R, and everything else.

[17:36]

How do we use our creativity and imagination to open up the possibilities of our world. This is important now. So there's all these levels of suffering and liberation. There's the work on our own cushions, getting to be intimate and friendly with our own patterns of greed, hate, and delusion. hopefully not to be friendly with ourselves and to see that stuff and not hurt ourselves more and not hurt others. Then there's the interpersonal stuff and how do we be helpful to family and friends and co-workers and the people around us.

[18:38]

How do we be patient enough to wait for an opportunity to say something actually helpful to somebody who's acting in a harmful way or being a jerk about something? That takes a great deal of patience and skillfulness and also seeing fresh perspectives, being creative about how to respond being willing to not respond when there's nothing to say, that's important too. And then there's the work of, you know, what do we do about our society and our interconnectedness with beings all around the world? And so I'm along what Andrea didn't mention in that long introduction is that I'm also a long-time social activist as well as a Zen teacher, and so I'm concerned with how You know, so many things. Climate damage, the danger to human habitat from carbon dioxide and methane and nuclear power and radiation and militarism and violence and the destruction of our economy and corporate rule and anyway, it goes on and on.

[20:03]

So I don't have answers. I mean, none of us have answers. But I'm looking for fresh perspectives. And I think bodhisattva ethics offers us a lot of tools. And just the one word that is foremost for me is respectfulness. How do we respect the whole process and everybody involved? Because we are all interconnected. It's not that there's certain persons who are, you know, I don't know, are there reptilian extraterrestrials who've come down and are making this all happen? I don't know. But there's these systems that are causing all these problems to our world, and it's serious. Not just for our grandchildren and grandchildren, but even in the next 20 years, we've lost Detroit and New Orleans. coastal cities with the polar melting, but in the heartland we're not immune either with tornadoes, you know, this is serious stuff.

[21:25]

Again, looking at the perspectives of physicists is not about escaping to some other universe, but seeing that there are other things going on here that we can't see. So again, I don't have answers, but I want to share some of the perspectives of one of your neighbors and one of my teachers, Joanna Macy, who I think is very helpful in thinking about this. And obviously, I'm talking about all kinds of stuff, and it's all over the place, but that's how my mind works. So maybe everything is going to be OK if we all just go out and shop more and trust the powers that be, and the corporations will figure it all out. science and technology. Anyway, maybe some of you think that. But there's also this clear problem of the unraveling of society, and scientists tell that, say that, and it turns out there are projections about climate change, for example, are turning out to be much more conservative than actually what's happening when they measure it.

[22:44]

but Joanna points talks about the great turning and the fact that there are so many people all around the world doing so much to make to work on all this and to make things better that's not insignificant so you know and all of you here are part of that so not it's not in the you know you in a lot of the so-called alternative media, but things are happening that are very positive. And how does that fit in with what's happening physically to the planet? Anyway, she talks about three aspects of this work, what she calls the work that reconnects. So part of it is holding actions, things that mitigate the damage that's going to happen, that's already happening. action and trying to respond to the damage that's happening and that's important and some of us do some of that.

[23:53]

And the second part of that is building alternative structures and some of you are probably involved in that, regional agriculture, regional economic systems, alternative media, alternative educational systems, ways that ways that aren't actually so visible, of course in the mainstream media, to develop other ways of cooperation rather than control. And this is possible. I actually think that in a sane world We don't have to have war and poverty and hunger, actually, in terms of how this planet is. I actually believe that, if things were arranged in the same way. and the damage that's been done in my lifetime has made that very difficult, and how do we get from here to there, I don't know, but anyway.

[25:00]

And then the third, so there's holding actions, alternative structures, and Joanna's third is what we're all doing here, and it's very important, and that's changing vision and changing paradigms of how we see reality. So meditators are all involved in that. how we see reality. So that's what I've been talking about mainly. All three of these are connected. But how do we see the world freshly? How do we see what reality is? And this isn't about one version of reality. So Thich Nhat Hanh's wonderful commentary on our 10 Soto Precepts is about not holding to some particular view, to be open to other views, to be open to discussion. So it's not that we have to find the one right answer even. There may not be one reality, just as

[26:03]

Maybe there's not one universe, there are many, but they're not somewhere else, they're right here. So I'm sorry for filling your heads with all this stuff. I had three pages of dense notes and I thought I'd run out of time, but actually I talk so discuss this and I'm happy to go back and talk more about Dogen and you know many other examples of how he talks about our usual sense of reality as not what's going on. Another example, I translated with cause, expressing the dream within a dream, that dreams aren't what we try and awake from, that being in the dream, the Buddhas are in the dream and expressing the dream. So this is all a dream, merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily.

[27:12]

How do we give it life? How do we express it? How do we share it? That's another example. bringing our world to life. And the point of our practice is to settle down enough to be calm enough to sink into that space of that creative energy that we all have, that we all have access to, and find that way for each of us in our own way. to creatively express this awareness for others and to find ways to share that and help enliven this reality in this world so we can shift what's happening. So that does leave us some time for questions.

[28:15]

comments, responses, questions, and then I'll be back for more question and answer later. Comments, questions? Yes, hi. Through my grandson who is at Cal, I meet young Cal University students, and I must say, after I've talked with them, I feel more optimistic, because they have majors that never existed 20 years ago. They have tools that we don't have. I know that I am an obsolete mind to speak with those young people. And I am hopeful that they are going to find some solutions, as you say, and perspectives that we aren't able to be open to. Did you hear her in the back? Yes. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, so there are new possibilities, and new majors even.

[29:18]

Good. Other responses? Hi. Could you repeat the name of the physics book you were talking about in the author? Oh, yes. It's by Brian Greene. It's called Hidden Reality. And I forget the subtitle, but it's something about parallel universes. Green, G-R-E-E-N-E. And it's, you know, it's supposed to be for the layperson, but it's a little hard for me to read. But I'm finding it interesting. Yes, back there. Could you say something about the life of Dogen? What sort of job he did, being an abbot of a temple versus writing? Yeah, well he was a strange guy. He was raised in an aristocratic context.

[30:20]

He lived 1200 to 1253 in medieval Japan and he was ordained, he was raised to be maybe an aristocrat but he went off to become a monk early on. was dissatisfied with the Buddhism in Japan, went off to China and spent four years there and became a Chan or Zen monk and brought back what we call Soto-sen from China to Japan, started a monastery just outside Kyoto for ten years. started writing. So there's two major works, Shobo Genzo, which Kastanahashi has translated the full works of, and there's other translations of parts of, and some very thick work. And then Shobo Okamura and I translated his other major work, Dogen's extensive record. After ten years in Kyoto, we don't know exactly why, he left and went off to the far north mountains of Japan and

[31:22]

way up in the mountains and with lots of snow and just spent his last 10 years, he died fairly young, training a group of monks who then spread what we now call Soto Zen through the countryside of Japan. And he wrote a lot and it's very difficult to read. He wrote very different kinds of things, some short books, some poetry, these long essays on Shobo Genzo. He's been promoted in Japan as a philosopher. His writings are very poetic as well, but he was basically a a meditation teacher. He was teaching practitioners, but then most of his writings come from talks he gave, and then were edited and so forth, but he was basically a religious teacher, religious thinker, and somehow in the

[32:27]

20th century, his writings were unknown through most of Japanese history. He was popular, he was known and famous as the founder of the school. His writings weren't read much in Japan, but in the 20th century in the West, thanks to Cos and others who translated him, Anyway, if you try and read him, and there's lots of good translations around, and I recommend reading, but read him slowly, like listening to jazz or a symphony. Don't try and understand what he's saying. Just read a little bit and sit zazen. And how long did he have in the mountains? He was for 10 years in the mountains. He lived to be 53, but basically he had 10 years in teaching in Kyoto and then 10 years up in the mountains. Good.

[33:31]

Yes, hi. Hi. I'm wondering about how faith is expressed within the dream because when I think about, you know, Dr. King's vision, right, of the beloved community and the famous dream speech, the culture was open to and understood the language of dream and still in the culture this word dream and what it represents and so forth. So if you believe in the beloved community, but you've never had an experience of intimacy, true intimacy, so you're coming from a lot of fear and all this sort of stuff, to engage that fear, how do I enter, so to speak, the dream of fear and express faith within it? Well, first, are you talking about The dream that Dogen talks about is the dream of Dr. King.

[34:32]

Would you say a few words on that? I'm not sure how to answer that. Well, I mean, because I refer to Dogen talking about expressing the dream within a dream. And the dream means something else in medieval Japan where they used, where they had this sense of dream as a resource where bodhisattvas appeared. And part of the continuum of awareness includes dream and includes you know, Satori includes meditation and so they were interested in awareness and consciousness and there's a continuum and included dreaming. But if you're talking about, you know, Dr. King's dream, I could talk for a long time about that right now, and I know Alan Sinaki, who teaches here, is an old friend, has talked about Dr. King a lot, but you know, this month is the 50th anniversary and they're going to commemorate it, and of course Dr. King wouldn't be invited to the commemoration because Dr. King talked about, at his time, our government being the main purveyor of violence in the world, and I think that's still true.

[35:42]

So Dr. King, if he was giving that speech again this month, would be inviting Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden. but what does the dream mean your question was about the dream and fear actually i realized as you're speaking more of articulating it as this is teaching of seeing all beings as bodhisattvas so there's always intimacy with the other and hence from that everything shifts and i'm wondering how to embrace that with let's say that again please Well, the teaching that all beings are bodhisattvas, so you meet the person who's the hardest to deal with, you know, I speak for I, and how do I see that person as the bodhisattva who's arising just at the right time to help me cross over? I wouldn't say all beings are bodhisattvas. All beings can be bodhisattvas for you. All beings aren't necessarily intentionally acting as bodhisattvas.

[36:44]

All beings can act as bodhisattvas. Anyway, I'm sorry. Ask another question. Well, something about that is, how did these Bodhisattvas spontaneously arise within the dream? How does that connect to fear and faith? Fear and faith? Yeah, I think that's where your question is. Don't be afraid of fear. I mean, are we sick with what is? So of course, there's lots of stuff to be afraid of. One of the five fears in Buddhism is public speaking. But you and I, we're doing that. So we're not afraid of that. Faith is just taking the next breath in Buddhism. Faith is not faith in something else.

[37:45]

Faith is, OK, here we are. We could see all the problems of the world and just give up. And actually, I think there are forces in the world that want to encourage us to be afraid, be very afraid, you know. And there's, you know, warnings about this and that and the other, and you know, the terror is this and the terror is that, and you know, anyway. So there's, there are, but I don't, don't, faith is just continuing doing what you can do as best you can with all the love you can. And if you're afraid, still keep doing it. It's OK to be afraid. Of course, there's lots of things to be afraid of. But OK, there's lots of things to be sad about. There's lots of things to be confused about. We have negative emotions, frustration, and anger and confusion and fear is one of them.

[38:56]

Sadness. Part of our sitting is to give us the strength to be present and upright and still. And the power of Zazen is that we can sit still in the middle of sadness or fear or confusion and still be ourselves. And it's okay. And you don't have to run screaming from the room. I mean, I've seen that once or twice. So there's a tremendous power in just being able to just keep breathing. That's faith. Take another breath. Is there time for one more? Yes. Back there. This is a bit of an extreme question. is self-immolating, or catching himself on fire in his protesting.

[40:02]

Is he the same as, is he running from the room? Of this same art, of this political realm. I've actually written some about that recently. I don't recommend it. You know, there are extreme situations, like the first time I ever heard of or saw a Buddhist monk was Thich Quang Tuck, is that his name, who burned himself in Saigon. And he did it with, you know, he had great Samadhi power and he didn't, you know, he was just peaceful through the whole thing. I don't know how effective that is. And then now there are all these Tibetan monks who are killing themselves, who are immolating themselves because of the Chinese treatment of Tibetans. And I don't know that it's effective, but I, you know, I honor their sacrifice. But I think there may be better ways to protest.

[41:06]

I don't know what else to say. There is this long tradition of self-immolation that goes back to the one chapter I really dislike in the Lotus Sutra. where there's a chapter about the medicine bodhisattva who immolates himself as an offering to Buddha, and I think that may go back to ancient Indian pre-Buddhist, maybe you know about that, sacrificial rituals. So anyway, yeah, sad. express that. It looks like you want another question. I have a short one. Good. I just want to know what the difference, you said the temple you teach at, or the practice place you teach at, is a gate not a center?

[42:15]

What's the difference between a gate and a center? I don't know, it's just our name is Ancient Dragons Zen Gate, because when we were naming it I thought there were lots of Zen centers around, but it's a gate, you know, and it's a storefront temple, it's small, the whole temple, maybe the whole temple is as big as this room, a little bit bigger, it goes back a little bit, I don't know, maybe it's little entryway right on the street. It's between a jazz club and a burrito shop. And it's right on a busy street, half a block from the L stop, and half a block in the other direction is a, you've been there, you know. Half a block in the other direction is the main intersection, and we have a little entryway and a zendo that seats 24 with chairs. You can go on the aisle sometimes. And then a little doxan room. a couple of bathrooms and a little kitchen and library. It's a dragon gate.

[43:20]

Do you know about the dragon gates? No. So there's a river in China. We actually have a model of one from Chicago's Chinatown on our altar. But it's in a river in China. I forget which river. But when fish swim through it, they become dragons. And we decided there's one in Lake Michigan, too. So it's a gate, and some people who've come through Ancient Dragon Zen Gate have actually come and sat here at Berkeley or at Green Gulch or Tassajara. But then they come back. And you're all welcome to come to Ancient Dragon Zen Gate if you ever are in Chicago. Yes? Do you recommend Men in Black 2 and 3? Men in Black 3 is really good. Men in Black 2 is okay. But Men in Black 1 is really, like, the great American Buddhist film. I mean, Big Lebowski is really good too, but, you know. Yes?

[44:22]

Okay, thank you. Would you like a serious question? Wasn't that serious? Yeah, give me another question. Sure. I was told I had to stop at a certain time, but I'll just keep going. Paul is actually in charge of it. Well, I'm happy to keep going as long as anything. I'll say this is the last one. OK, Linda. Well, you were citing Thich Nhat Hanh saying that we need to keep the ability to see many different views than the one that we cherish most, obviously. Well, also he says not to promote or push or, you know, propagandize your view. Sometimes I find that seeing multiple points of view immobilizes me. Oh, then don't do it. So, for example, if you are worried about climate change and you know there are people who deny climate change, what would be the value of

[45:30]

seeing their, I mean, actually I can see the obvious value of seeing their point of view, but actually, are you recommending, allowing my point of view that climate change is real and terrible to be challenged by people who deny it, or? No. Okay. Fine. Let's have it. You know, you might look at the range of you know, there are people who are profiting from trying to promote denial of climate change and that's an obvious situation. There are people who have been, I would say, miseducated by such denial promotion and then you might have a discussion with them and listen to how they see it. Well, you know, but then you might listen to what their concerns are, too.

[46:32]

No, I'm just joking. Now we should stop. OK, no more joking.

[46:37]

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