Good morning. So first I want to talk about sitting zazen in a chair, and then I want, hopefully, to have some time to talk about some aspects of orioki. Tomorrow, Ashuso will give a talk and Saturday I will give my last talk on Genjoko-on. So there is a way of sitting in a chair which is truly Zazen. We sit in a chair for various reasons.

[01:04]

So it's really hard to, because of the different reasons people sit in a chair, it's hard to say exactly how you should sit Zazen in a chair. Because what works for one person doesn't work for another. And what works for one ailment doesn't work for another. But If, say, you have leg problems or knee problems, and you don't have a back problem, then I would suggest that you sit Zazen without leaning on the back of the chair. So, you can sit on a portion of the chair, or even sitting with your butt kind of against the back of the chair, but your back is free. So you can actually practice posture in a chair. I would suggest that you lean against the back of the chair only if you can't sit up on your own.

[02:14]

Sometimes we can sit up for a good portion of the time, and sometimes your back is not strong enough to sit up on your own. So you have to lean against the back of the chair. But I would say to make the effort to sit up independently of the back of the chair as much as you can. So this is what I would call Zazen. So to make the effort to sit zazen when you're in the chair by doing as much as you can, because it's easy to just depend on the chair. So to depend on the chair as little as possible, But you may not be able to do that.

[03:18]

So if you can only sit up and leaning against the back of the chair, that's okay. But my suggestion is to, if you have a healthy back, to use your back to sit Zazen. When it comes to back problems, it's hard to say what you should do. I've had those problems myself. And one time, I've told you this before, some years ago, When I was at Tassajara, I had a back problem. It was hard for me to sit up. So I had one of these little chairs, a canvas chair that doesn't have legs but has a back.

[04:29]

So you sit on it and that supports the back, your weight. So I put one of those on the tan. So I could sit cross-legged because it wasn't a problem with my legs, and use the back of the chair to ease the pain in my back. So if you make the effort, I think you can pretty much find a way to sit Zazen. So there are ways to compensate for the problems that you have. And a chair is one of them. And you can sit Zazen very well in a chair. We spend a lot of time in chairs in our life. And if you work in an office or something like that, or in front of a computer,

[05:31]

You know, you spend a lot of time in a chair. So learning to sit Zazen in a chair is very important. As a matter of fact, we should all learn how to sit Zazen in a chair. It's so easy for us to just kind of let the chair take care of us. And it's the same thing on the cushion. We may think that we're sitting Zazen on the cushion because we're sitting on a cushion. But actually, the effort to do Zazen is a little different than just sitting on a cushion. And the effort to do Zazen in a chair is not the same as simply sitting on a chair. So I suggest doing as much as you can, and being as little dependent on the chair as you can, and as little dependent on what you have to lean on as necessary, and keep working at that effort.

[06:56]

Do you have any question about that? When I sit on a chair, I've noticed that my feet, I mean it's hard not to notice, my feet slip and slide all over the place. I get a little support cushion, they still slip and slide. I was wondering if any of the chair dwellers wonder about that. Is the chair too high? I don't know where it is. Your feet are, your legs are too short. Yeah. Although, I'm sure it works pretty well. Well, anyway. My mother used to say, where there's a will, there's a way. Yeah. Could you say something about telling the difference between the kind of pain to sit through and the kind of pain No, I can't really, because it's very subjective.

[08:04]

It's really subjective. People say to me, you know, you don't seem to have any problem at all. You just get on and off the tongue, you know. But actually, I sit through a lot of pain, and I always have. And also I've sat through very little pain, you know. There have been times when I've sat through whole sessions without any, you know, very little knee pain and so forth. But then there are times when I've sat through lots of pain. But my way is to simply sit through everything. So that's the way I've always done it for 41 years. I've just sat through everything. And I just find a way to do it. So that's my way.

[09:07]

But I can't tell you to do that. Because you'll say, you told me to do that and look what happened. When you go to a doctor with a back pain, nowadays doctors are much more willing to tell you to move rather than lay down. But it wasn't so long ago that if you went to a doctor with a back pain, the doctor would say, lay down for six months, don't get up. Because if the doctor told you what you really should do, which is keep moving, then he'd be liable for telling you to do something that you feel caused you more problems. So I don't want to do that. I can only tell you what I do and encourage you to find a way to sit with your problems.

[10:12]

But I must say that We each have what we call a threshold maybe for pain, or we think that we know what that is. And so maybe we stop before we find a way to deal with it. So, I always encourage myself to find a way to deal with it without finding an alternative. So that's what I've always done, and I'm still alive. Although I have to say that, you know,

[11:15]

Pretty soon I'll be 76 and my knees are a little bit, you know, they're beginning to get a little bit rough. But to me it's interesting, you know, to keep finding a way and not to let down and say, well, you know, I can't do this anymore, but to just keep finding a way. So, I'll be there in a minute. If you have, say, muscle pain or joint pain, one way to deal with that is with ice. Put ice on it. If you have lower back pain, put ice on it, and ice will alleviate a lot of that pain.

[12:18]

I mean, it's very simple, you know? And then there's a, I discovered there's a gel that is, you wipe onto your joints or your back or whatever, and it's the same, this thing is ice, it makes it, that cold feeling will alleviate a lot of that painfulness. So, you know, those outside helps are, they work. So a lot of things you can do before you quit A lot of things you can do that will help you. But, you know, it's up to you. I cannot, I will not tell you that you should just see it through. Although I recommend it, but I won't tell you to do that. Because being able to see it through is part of trying to, is really understanding what Zazen is.

[13:28]

You never understand what Satsang is until you can see through your difficulties. You had your hand up? My name's Elizabeth. I know, but I'm 76. in a couple of weeks. And sometimes I look at people but I can't remember their names. So I'm sorry. You know, I have to say I feel encouraged when I see people like Trisha Warner sit in a chair in front of her altar and when she can do things that her body can do, she does. It also feels stunningly encouraging to have her put her chair in front of her altar.

[14:33]

I also enjoy when sometimes the Kokyo has their chair up front in the morning. Sometimes if the Kokyo uses a chair, it just means a lot to me. I think because of the shame that I felt in using a chair. The integration of chairs within our practice means a lot to me. Yeah, so that's why I encourage you to sit in a chair, when you do sit in a chair, to find a way to do Zazen in the chair. Yeah, it's encouraging to me too. When I give Zazen instruction, I like to tell people Trungpa, the Tibetan teacher, said, one, Tibet, we call it Maitreya Asana. It's no big deal, just sitting in a chair. Like Maitreya Buddha. Right, with one knee up.

[15:34]

Yeah, so I think that it's very interesting because there are two things going on, you know. One is how to have sitting in the chair be a legitimate way to sit Zazen, right, as Zazen. So how do you practice zazen when you sit in a chair? The other is how you sit on the cushion with your difficulties and see those difficulties as an opportunity. Cherry, did you have your hand up? I was going to offer some free medical advice.

[16:42]

For what it's worth, or actually to ask people's experience of this, because I just had this thought. First, we have ice packs that we keep in the freezer in the community room for anyone who wants to use them during Sashin or other sittings. But I wonder, the pain that goes away after you've stood up for a little bit, that's pain I've found over time that I feel much more comfortable sitting through and watching than the pain that I know that's related to an injury of some kind. And so for those of us who have torn meniscus or have narrowing of the spinal cord that causes pressure on nerves, that's a trickier one. And it's tricky I think because once you've had pain for a while there's such a strong fear response to it that knowing how to sit with the fear and have that be the practice of Zazen and when that pain is actually a signal that something's wrong takes a closer investigation.

[17:46]

But I do find My own experience with my body, many of you know that I walked with a cane for some period of time after I injured my back and sat. Through that time, I went to Tassajara with a cane, actually, and sat that practice period. It was very useful for me to watch the level of cane and when it would go away after I get up and watch my mind in relationship to it. Yeah, that's very good advice. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate this conversation and I found it really encouraging what you said. I think about attitude, looking for an opportunity. Because for a day and a half, I have sat with continual self-criticism. And it never occurred to me that that could be an opportunity. But that opens up the space. Yeah. Yeah. We should be careful not to criticize ourselves.

[18:50]

When you have to move, you should just move. If you feel that you have to move, just move. But without the added slap in the face of saying, I failed, or something like that. Or, I'm not so good at this, or something like that. Just move, that's all. So it's just, or if you, whatever difficulty you have, to just accept it as what it is. And that's Zazen. and I've already judged it.

[20:05]

So I think that, you know, that judgments come in so fast that I think where I am is just to notice the judgment. Maybe eventually I'll get to the point where I get to notice, oh, that was a dream. Oh yeah, no judgment. Then as soon as you start judging, it's no longer Zazen. I was going to ask you, what is Zazen? Because I don't think what I'm doing here is Zazen. Zazen is non-discrimination. As soon as you start judging and saying, oh, this is good, this is bad, then it's no longer. It's just discriminating mind. We do have to discriminate. This is Zazen, this isn't Zazen. But that doesn't mean this is good and this is bad. This is simply this is Zazen and this is not Zazen. It's not this is good or bad. So when your mind starts wandering, you don't say, this is bad.

[21:08]

You just simply let go and bring your attention back. But as soon as you start judging it, it's no longer zazen. That your mind wanders, it's still zazen. And that you let go, recognize that, let go, and come back, it's still zazen. But as soon as you say, oh, I'm bad, or this is wrong, or blah, blah, blah, that's no longer zazen, because you're falling into discrimination. So, to stop judging on the basis of, when you judge like that, it's simply self-centered. And to stop judging and discriminating on the basis of self-centeredness is zazen. is when you start judging and discriminating on the basis of self-centeredness, it's no longer Zazen.

[22:11]

So there is a discrimination, but it's not self-centered discrimination. You can tell one thing from another, but you're not laying a judgment on it. The person inside who looks at the breathing isn't judging. It's kind of like an owl or something. Oh, owls are good. Yeah. So, I do feel that about zazen, that that is a place where you don't, that you can finally be free of that, you know. But when you're actually looking at breathing, it's almost impossible to judge because you're busy thinking about your breathing. That's right. Well, you're not looking at breathing, you are being breathing. As soon as you're looking at breathing, then it's discriminating. It's a very fine line, but don't judge yourself for doing that. You have to release the owl into the wilderness.

[23:25]

Who? Okay. I think a lot about this judging question. You used the example of if your mind wanders or if you sit funny, don't judge, just notice. Same with if you get angry knock somebody's block off? I didn't say that, did I? No, I'm singing. No, that's different. One is ego and the other is not. Do you understand? I'm answering your question. Because I'm angry and I want to knock somebody's block off. That's discrimination on the basis of self-centeredness. No, let's say, let's not use that silly example of knocking a block, but let's say anything that you could call harmful.

[24:35]

Say it's happened, just like your mind wandered. Still, no judging, only noticing. I'm trying to kind of find the right attitude. Well, when you make a discrimination on the basis of self-centeredness, then there's judgment. If I say, I did something harmful? Mm-hmm. Shouldn't say that? I did something harmful, yeah. That's confession. That's acknowledgment. And then you have to deal with that. That's different from my mind wandered. That's different from my mind wandered, yeah. Because you simply, my mind wandered. Well, so what? There is such a thing as doing something harmful.

[25:42]

There is such a thing, yes. It's happening all the time. It's happening continuously. But my mind wandered is not something harmful. No need to judge it. Because we think that zazen means to always be concentrated and never deviate. We think that's the standard for zazen. And so when our mind wanders, we say, well, I deviated from what I'm supposed to be doing. And if you do something harmful, you confess. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. It's a different realm. The harmful thing you're doing when you judge your mind and zazen is the judgment.

[26:48]

That's harmful. It's not really harmful, it's just, you know. But it keeps us from, it stilts our freedom. So zazen is not some special state of mind when we make the effort to take the posture and then we accept every state of mind that comes. And every state of mind becomes the subject of zazen. Whatever arises becomes the subject of zazen. There are no wrong thoughts. There are no wrong feelings. And there are no preferred thoughts or preferred feelings.

[27:56]

Simply, everything comes and goes. And everything comes and goes within zazen. And to try to hang on to something good is discriminating. And to try to avert something that we don't like is discriminating. So we become free of preference. will become free from desire, which causes suffering. But then you're left with pain in your legs. You say, well, that's suffering. But it's only suffering if you judge it. And this is the problem. We start judging it. I don't like it, it's not good. I'd rather have this, I'd rather have that. That inevitably comes up. It's natural. It's natural to say, I don't like this, or I don't want this.

[29:00]

But in the realm of non-discrimination, it doesn't work. So to unify the mind, unified body, mind, is to stop, to let go of that judgment. The pain in our legs, so to speak, is something that we're always dealing with, and we have to not turn it into suffering by discriminating it. Yeah, Kate? About that pesky knee pain.

[30:02]

About the what thing? Pesky knee pain. What I've been going on is the theory that my body is the only instrument I've got to work with. And I, forgive me, discriminate between pain, pain, as was mentioned earlier, and pain that feels as though it may actually is aim at, you know, when you go to a gym and they tell you to work out one day and then let it rest so that it'll build back up the next day, my idea is to not to push myself so far that I'm going to end up with an instrument that doesn't work as well and isn't as able to sit Zazen. What do you think? Yeah, I think, well, I think if you start sitting Zazen when you're young, then your body has the opportunity to be more flexible and adaptable.

[31:14]

Many, many people start sitting when they're older, so it's harder to be adaptable. And so, The gym way I think is good. Suzuki Roshi used to say, you should just make progress little by little. Don't try to make a big leap in progress. Little by little. But at the same time, he pushed everybody to not move. So I was trained to not move. And I went through years of very painful zazen before I understood what zazen was.

[32:19]

I think that little by little is good. Like, you know, to not push yourself, especially when you're older, you know. I started singing Zazen when I was 35, but I was still a kid. It's true, I was, you know. Doug? I was going to ask you if you think you would have discovered what Zazen was without that singing. No. I don't think so. I really don't think so. This physical pain is useful as kind of a training device for the rest of life.

[33:25]

Out in the rest of life there's many other kinds of pain, from relationships, from because we love and people die, we have pain. And so practicing with this pain actually goes out and helps you to spread your practice to the rest of your life. So, don't be despairing. You know, over and over again I have people come and tell me, I never could have gotten through this situation without practice. You know, whatever the situation was. Tell me that over and over again. And that's my experience as well. I've learned many things through Zazen that are so fundamental. One is deep breathing. I used to have so much pain that the only thing I could do in Lai Khen Se Shing, just one breath at a time.

[34:33]

My whole life was just one breath at a time and just covering, that one breath just covered the whole world. There was nothing but as you must experience yourself. Right? So now I always breathe deeply. I can't breathe any other way than just breathe deeply. So I ask people, where's your breath? Where's your breath? I don't know. I don't know. You should always know where your breath is. And down here. And if it's up here, move it down. Keep moving your breath down. That's where you live. That's the fundamental place where you live is in your breath. When there's no more breath, there's no more you. So, it's so fundamental.

[35:36]

to, you know, when you have a difficulty, when you find yourself in some difficulty in your life, when you automatically just go here, without even thinking about it, you just go to your breath, and that's your refuge. And then from that calm place, you can move out and deal with things. Yeah. or upset or something, and they're always breathing up here. When I take their hand, I say, put your hand on my hand. And I breathe in my belly. And in five seconds, it's gone. Yeah, that's right. That's how he calmed down. Anyway, yes. It's easier for me to deal with the pain the way you were describing it when I have a rest, when I'm in condition, and when I'm strong, which is one of the reasons that I exercise, especially sit-ups and aerobics.

[37:11]

I find those so helpful. When I start doing sit-ups again after a few months, I can sit up so much straighter. It's amazing. Yeah. Well, I do that every morning before Zazen. I do 20 sit-ups before Zazen. Keeping yourself in shape is very important. Keeping your weight down, keeping yourself in good condition really helps. Also, sleep. You know, when you sleep, some people say, they used to say this more, I remember in the 60s, 70s, you should be tired when you sit zazen. When you're sleepy, it's better zazen because your mind is not so resistant and blah, blah, blah. But actually, you get good rest. And when you're awake, you can sit much better zazen. Yeah, that's why.

[38:14]

Well, you know, there are sashins where people just sit up the whole time, you know, and meditation chin rest. This is a, there is a, you know, the fourth patriarch was supposed to have never sat, never lied down, but always sat up, you know, all the time. Which is admirable in a way, but it's not my way. My way is to get as much sleep as I can, but it's really hard to do that. Really hard to get sleep, enough sleep. So, but when I do get enough sleep, my zazen, just more wakeful and better. My energy is up, my strength is up. And then you can sit well, but when you're tired, you just can't do it, you know? So I recommend sleep. That's why I don't want to start our sasheen too early in the morning. The night before session I say to myself, can I go to bed at 9 o'clock?

[39:36]

And inevitably it's 11. Yes? I just want to appreciate the rest periods in our session because I was actually reading an article about sailors who go solo around the world. Right. That's right. And they can do it if they take short naps. Right. That's it. So that really helps me because otherwise I would be sick. That's right. 15 minutes. Thomas Edison apparently never slept. He only took cat naps. But just one thing about what you were saying yesterday. I do have a hard time with the slow kin-hin because I have a back problem and I sometimes get cramps and then I'm going to be going into another sitting. So it does help to stretch a little bit extra sometimes. Stretching is really good for your lower back.

[40:38]

And ice. There's ice in the refrigerator. No, I really highly recommend ice on your lower back. It really helps. And stretching helps. Yeah, I would just deepen thought for a minute. Francesca? Yeah, I was just going to say, and Richard, I'm glad you said what you said, because I was about to say, I mean, the whole practice of Hatha yoga was developed to prepare the body for long periods of sitting, you know, sitting practice. And so, I mean, that's not why I started doing yoga, but I found that when I really also do my yoga practice, Right, to prepare yourself for this is really important.

[41:59]

And this is, like I was saying yesterday, to be loose. To be loose and flexible is really the most important part because what happens when we receive something that we don't like is that we immediately set up a resistance When there's an intrusion into our body, we set up a resistance. So pain is an intrusion. And a reaction against an intrusion is to resist. And resistance means tighten up. So you have to go the opposite way of your reaction, which is to open up. And that's how you deal with painfulness, is to open rather than close down. So, that's why we have to learn this through our difficulty.

[43:09]

Because you get to a place where you don't know what to do, and closing down doesn't help. The only thing you can do is open up. And that's where you pass through the barrier. Oh, no. Should I say something? No. No, you don't. There's enough time. Sometimes I think, if you have a piece of paper and just take everybody's name down, who has a question, and then everybody should say their name. So my name is Raul, and I have this question. By the way, you'll remember it. Yeah, I have to do that sometimes. You have to speak up a little bit louder so people can hear you. The hardest one is sitting zazen and laying down, because otherwise you go to sleep.

[45:46]

We used to be told that we sit zazen in this position because it's the easiest way to sit for a long period of time and to do zazen for a long period of time and to stay awake. and to be attentive, and so forth. But that's a superficial reason. But it is a reason. It's the most stable position. So, it's probably time to end. Okay. We'll do orioke some other time.

[46:31]

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