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Total Dynamic Working

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BZ-02805
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The talk presents Dōgen’s Zenki (“Total Dynamic Working”) as an account of existence arising through the interdependence of all causes and conditions. Using the boat metaphor, the collapse of the Arecibo telescope, and pandemic disruptions to Zen practice, it connects this teaching to impermanence, birth and death, and zazen’s cultivation of flexible attention: allowing changing experience without being governed by it, and responding in accord with one’s vows.

  • “Zenki” — Dōgen: The central text; its boat analogy illustrates how life, self, and world arise through mutual conditions.
  • “Shoji” (“Birth and Death”) — Dōgen: Paired with Zenki to examine birth and death across a lifetime and in each moment.
  • “Case 61” — Blue Cliff Record: Its contrasting claims about raising or not raising a speck of dust frame the consequences of action and conditions.
  • “Heart Sutra” — author not specified: Referenced for the emptiness of dharmas and their dependence on causes and conditions.
  • Lecture on Zenki (Chapel Hill, 2008) — Sojin Roshi: Cited for the teaching that each being stands at the center of the universe, alongside every other being.
  • Talk on birth and death — Sojin Roshi: Mentioned as a recent discussion of Zenki and Shoji.
  • Work on Yogācāra (“mind-only” philosophy) — authors not specified: Raised in discussion of perception and the conditional nature of views.
  • Teachings on inclusiveness — Thich Nhat Hanh: His rendering of upekkhā as inclusiveness informs the discussion of allowing and including changing states.
  • Teachings on inclusion — Suzuki Roshi: Referenced in connection with including experience rather than idealizing constant openness.

AI Suggested Title: Riding the Boat of Conditions

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Notes: 

#starts-short

Transcript:

variously translated as undivided activity or the whole works, which is a nice play on words, or total dynamic working, which I'm generally inclined to go with. So, in these recent days, like many of you, I feel in the midst of a swirling, a rapidly swirling reality, a reality of change, a reality of loss, a reality of difficulty. And sometimes it's hard to stay upright and steady.

[01:02]

In the Blue Cliff Record, one of the key collections of Koan stories that we have, the 61st case is familiar to many of you. It says, If one raises a speck of dust, the house and the nation flourish. If a speck of dust is not raised, the house and the nation perish. It's actually interesting to consider this in terms of the COVID-19 virus raising or not raising a speck of dust or a particle, a virus, its import is actually reversed.

[02:12]

So I want to read you a little from Zenki, and we'll have a chance to explore it and actually discuss it among ourselves. at one point it says life is like one riding in a boat so in this boat one works the sail the rudder and the pole the boat carries one and even and one is nothing without the boat riding in the boat One even causes the boat to be a boat. One should meditate on this precise point. At this very moment, the boat is the world.

[03:15]

Even the sky, the water, and the shore have all become circumstances of the boat. unlike circumstances which are not the boat. So in other words, there is no boat unless there's you, unless there's the sky and the water. If those things are missing, then the boat is just a piece of wood stranded on the shore that has a peculiar open shape. It's not until all of those elements combine and we get in that you can call the boat a boat. This is really a wonderful example of total dynamic working. Nothing exists until all of the proper causes and conditions cooperate.

[04:27]

To go on, for this reason, life is causing life. Life causes us to be ourselves. And you could say, all of the elements of our body and mind and circumstances cause us to manifest life. When riding in the boat, the mind and body, object and subject are all workings of the boat. The whole earth and all of space are both workings of the boat. We that are life, life that is we are the same way. So the boat is an analogy for the entirety

[05:31]

of our life. It says a little further, Zen Master Engo said, in birth, there is total dynamic working. In death, there is total dynamic working. One should thoroughly investigate and understand the same. So I was put in mind of this because on Thursday evening, Sojin Roshi spoke about birth and death to the Assembled Sangha. And indirectly, he was commenting both on this fascicle and also on a kind of partnering fascicle, short fascicle by Dogen, which is called Shoji, or birth and death.

[06:33]

So, again, going on a little in Zinke, Dogen says, in the manifestation of this total dynamic working, there is birth and there is death. Therefore, the total dynamic working of birth and death are like a person bending their arm, bending and straightening their arm. In that act, there are so many spiritual powers and lights which are manifest. In other words, in this simple act of bending and straightening your arm, there is a limitless mystery. How do we do this? How does our body do this so easily and so readily?

[07:37]

And recognizing that there comes a time in our physical and mental life when it might be impossible to imagine bending your arm like this. Right now, it seems very simple to me. I know there will come a time when, despite the greatest effort I can make, this mystery will be beyond me. So, as I said, Zenki, this short fascicle, is often partnered with Shoji, Birth and Death. And they've been very much on my mind. They both point to this ceaseless reality of birth and death in its various and infinite locations in time.

[08:44]

By that, I mean, we can think of birth and death over the course of an entire lifetime. you know, the span of whatever years we are allowed or according to some schools of Buddhism and other religions over several lifetimes. And at the same time, we live by moment, we live in moment by moment birth and death. The birth and death, the rising and passing away of a tiny feeling or sensation, a thought, or a particular event. I don't know if any of you saw this.

[09:47]

I saw it on the news and also on some Facebook posts. if anybody saw the collapse of the radio telescope in Arecibo, Puerto Rico on December 1st. This huge telescope complex, it's fantastic, big receiving dish, and then 350 feet above it, let's say, all the control apparatus and electronics. And in one moment, it was just as it has been intact for decades. In the next moment, one cable snapped, single cable, and the entire structure catastrophically failed and plummeted

[10:55]

The electronics, which were massive, plummeted more than 300 feet to smash the radio, the receiving dish. And they have some video of it. And just, it all happens within 10 seconds, gone. So all these years that I've been at Berkeley Zen Center, at this time of year, we would usually be in rohatsu stitching. Right now, we'd be right in the middle of it. You know, we'd be, we maybe had been crossed over that threshold of intense pain into into a kind of normalization of aching knees and samadhi.

[12:03]

And this is our Rohatsu Sesshin. Rohatsu Sesshin celebrates the Buddha's enlightenment, which in the East Asian calendar falls on the eighth day of the 12th month, which is what Rohatsu translates to the word Rohatsu. And after all these years, I don't know, 37 years of doing that, that I've done it this year, it's different because of the pandemic. So we're not having our usual Rohatsu. We're having, I will say, we're having an abbreviated Three-day Rohatsu, so-called Rohatsu, from December 19th to 21st. And I think that the sign-up is available on the website.

[13:08]

So please do join us for that. And so that's different. Usually on the 8th of December, we would celebrate... Buddha's enlightenment. And we do this with great joy in the Zendo, circumambulating the Zendo and tossing flowers wildly into the air and at each other. It's really fun. And it's very celebratory. Celebratory of all of our enlightenment. And... we haven't figured out how to toss flowers digitally so uh it's too complicated to do this ceremony uh and then last night we celebrated also we would usually celebrate jingceshi and we celebrated the the passing of suzuki roshi suzuki roshi's memorial uh ceremony which marks his passing on the

[14:24]

the first day of sishin in 1971 49 years ago so things are different because of causes and conditions because of the total dynamic working the circumstances of this moment what's born is different than what we might have expected, and that's fine. Some years ago, I remember, I can't quite remember the context, someone asked Sojin Roshi what he thought about the wonderful practice and community that we have here at Berkeley Zen Center. And what I recall is that his answer was something like, yes, it's really wonderful.

[15:28]

And, you know, it can all go away in a moment. Poof. Just like that, you know, just like what happened to the radio telescope at Arecibo. So total dynamic working, the unfolding of cause and effect. Yesterday, Governor Newsom announced a shelter at home order for large parts of California beginning tomorrow, I think. Alameda County and the city of Berkeley they've made their own stay at home order which is operative until January 4th. And that means that people should congregate only within their own household.

[16:37]

I take that to mean no more walks with with residents here or with others uh just laurie and i can hang out uh and the headlines in berkeley side this morning said something like well the social bubbles are popped and this is total dynamic working as it applies to the hazards of sickness and death. I accept it. I accept this order. I don't resist it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to observe it without a lot of protest, without any protest, but with concern and with regret.

[17:42]

I had a dream last night and I'm not quite sure what the relevance of this dream is, but in the dream, somehow because of the fact that we had a lot of vacancies in our residency here at BCC, we kind of suddenly, without a lot of discussion, we sold the building next door. We sold 1929 where the community room and the kitchen and the library are. We sold that building to someone. And they changed the locks and we couldn't get in. And then, not surprisingly, there was a cascading series of events and confusions about well what do we do now that we don't have this community meeting space which I think is interesting given the fact that right now we don't have this community meeting space so I'm not sure what the impact of in the midst of this dream you know dreams are really interesting in the midst of this dream I was I was

[19:25]

somewhat consciously thinking about preparing for this talk. And what was in the dream, it seemed so immediately relevant to the question of total dynamic working. And it was like, wow, I really have to share this and talk about this. Right now, I'm not exactly sure how it connects, but I think it goes back to really taking in what Sojin Roshi said about the impermanence of everything. the impermanence of our physical life, the impermanence of Berkeley Zen Center, how quickly things can change.

[20:35]

You know, how quickly they have changed for all of us in the last nine months. And we keep sort of hoping and yearning for so-called normality, but... really we just have this dream of normality. You know, normality is just kind of what, all we call in normality is what we've experienced in the past. And that may not apply going further. So we can't, I mean, the fact of total dynamic working is to remain flexible and fluid. This is the, and this is the fact of, this is the fact of Zazen. The fact of Zazen is to maintain an openness to everything that occurs.

[21:40]

So it means investigating the dharmas, and it also means accepting them, including each one. whether they are pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. It means allowing the activity of birth and death, allowing the constant unfolding of this total dynamic working. There's a really excellent, if you Google One of the first things that's going to come up is a lecture by Sojin Roshi that he gave in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, I think in 2008. And it's really, really good talk.

[22:46]

And in that talk, he says, he says this. He's commenting on Zenki. And he says, wherever you are, wherever you stand is the center of the universe. But it doesn't mean that you are alone, that you alone are the center of the universe. Wherever anybody stands is also the center of the universe. So everyone and everything is standing in the center of the universe together, even though we are all in different places. So one thing I take away from this comment and also from

[23:54]

Zenki as a whole is I think one of the really important points that Dogen makes over and over again in his writing and his teaching is to learn to see the world around us and to see ourselves from ever shifting points of view. Never to be caught in one view and saying, this is it. Or in a kind of more vernacular terms, I tend to cringe when I hear people say, This is my truth.

[24:56]

As if, you know, it's fixed and that's it. And I feel it and that's the way it is. Because I've learned that my truth, what I think to be my truth, one moment shifts according to the causes and conditions. And I think that the message of this zazen practice is that things are always shifting and if we really allow that then we can become flexible and open not in some abstract way but really actually open to all the people and all the situations around and within us that we can recognize that whatever we grant as shifting within myself is also happening for everyone else so in his commentary you know sojin is is talking about the large matter of each individual's perspective each person's birth and death which are certainly if we see in order to

[26:23]

When we see ourselves as the center of the world, the center of the universe, that's a big thing. That's a big thing for us. As Sochin explains, the Buddha Dharma is really about small, individual, particular things that have no inherent existence in themselves. Those are called dharmas. And the dharmas themselves, as we know from the Heart Sutra, are empty. And they themselves are co-constructed of other causes and conditions. But these small things that create our world, and it's our small actions, our small words, the small ways that we interact with each other and with the things around us that really create heaven and hell.

[27:36]

And Sojin goes on, he says, for Dogen being confirmed by all dharmas, in other words, allowing all dharmas to arise, is proven by the fact of oneself in Zazen. So that's a kind of complex expression, proven by the fact of oneself in Zazen. One way that I can take that is to see that from these empty dharmas I have a sense of myself even though that itself is empty and I may feel it in zazen and I also may feel it loosen and fade in zazen and then immediately come back

[28:55]

when the bell rings. But to have this fluidity, this fluidity of the whole works, to see that from one perspective of time, things are swirling. Our world is swirling. My world is swirling. And sometimes it throws me off balance. But that's just from one perspective of time. From another perspective of time, it's like being in the bottom of the ocean. In the bottom of the ocean, even though everything is fluid and things are changing, it appears like there's this great stillness. That's true only in the perspective of

[29:56]

only in the frame of time by which you are looking at it. So we have to constantly have the long view. And I've had this experience. I'm sure that all of you have had this experience in your life where something happens, say, that was something happened years ago that was painful. Actually, an example of this came up, which I'm not going to be specific about, came up yesterday. It was something that occurred in my life and in my circle of activity that was very painful to me. And yesterday, out of the blue, a person called me up and said, Could we talk about that?

[30:59]

I recognize something happened there and maybe we can have a discussion about it. So I've come to have faith in not just the fluidity of existence, but the fluidity of time. So I don't want to get any more abstract than this. Because I think that in essence, this is not an abstract thing. This is something that takes place on a molecular, on an intellectual, on an interrelational basis in our very contact with the people around us. So this is a hard time. And sometimes it's swirling and I feel dizzy and I may want to take to my bed.

[32:06]

And sometimes I feel clear and present. In each of those circumstances, I really try not to prefer one over the other. my effort is to accept them as they are accept things as it is and understand that this principle of total dynamic working is also the law of impermanence and non-self And it's my choice. Those are two of the three marks of existence. The third mark is conventionally dukkha or suffering. And my understanding is that suffering is contingent on one's attitude towards impermanence and non-self.

[33:23]

If I resist it, then suffering is inevitable. If I say, well, you know, that's the law, that's the way they are, then I can be free. So I'm constantly asking myself in the midst of this total dynamic working, where am I? And I would... I pass that question to you. Where are you? So thank you very much. And I think we have time for some, we have good time for some question and discussion. Just a couple words about questions. So as you know, you can either raise your virtual hand to the bottom of your screen,

[34:25]

or pose a question in the chat box, which I'll keep an eye on and pass it along to Hozan. And we ask you to be as brief as possible, more than one follow up question, just so we can allow for as many voices as possible. And if you don't usually ask a question, we invite you to do so. And please, when you ask your question, you can unmute yourself and lower your hand, and if you forget, I'll do it for you. Thank you. It looks like Leslie has a question. Leslie, would you like to turn on your mic? I think it's going to be Jake. Okay. Thank you.

[35:27]

I just want to see Hozon. Speaker. Thank you, Hozon, for a very rich talk. When you mentioned Arecibo, it brought to mind that the purpose of Arecibo with its multi-dimensional array of disks was to look for extraterrestrial life. That's out of the question now for a while. But When you talked about each one of us is the center of the universe, I'm the center of my universe, you're the center of your universe, et cetera. Without human perspective, without human point of view, where is the center of the universe? Is there a center of the universe? No. I mean, according to Buddha Dharma, there's no universe. Right. So if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, there's no tree that falls.

[36:29]

I think that's the orthodox interpretation. I have a little trouble with that, and maybe you do too. I do. Yeah. But you have to see, that's because you have an idea of a tree. you know, we have these concepts that just keep, you know, it's like turtles all the way down. We have these concepts that are piled and interconnected with each other. So I don't know. What I do know is just that you and I each have to pay attention to our perceptions. This is This is what Laurie's talk was about last week. We've been studying and struggling and arguing over Yogacara, mind-only school Buddhist philosophy for the last eight or nine months.

[37:44]

I'm not telling you what I think because I know that whatever I think is conditioned to but I'm just saying what I've been reading with some difficulty in these texts. Just as a final add on, from what I've read, astronomers say that wherever being is, consciousness, that is the center of the universe. Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you. Okay, we have a comment from Sean. who says in the chat, I interpret speaking one's truth, in quotations, is the opposite of being silenced, being okay with who you are and what you have said in the moment. Yeah, well, that's right. And that's an example of the fact of conditionality.

[38:45]

I would not argue with that. at all. The context there is, to me, the very real context that people are silenced and that it's really important for those people to speak. I am challenged by the idea, to me, the idea of truth is itself conditional what's true for me may not be true for you and actually what we have to find in in action together in dialogue together in exploration together is what we can

[39:51]

what we actually, what ground of agreement we can find, what space to be able to cooperate. That is, that's the space for me of truth. But again, that's my opinion. And I don't feel fixed on it, but I think that Sean's point is a good one. Okay, Sam K has his hand up. Sam, can you turn on your mic? Hi, thank you for taking my question. You talked about these feelings of, you know, feeling just like you want to go to sleep and kind of get away from it all versus, you know, being clear minded and then accepting that. And that seems like a very core idea and a big challenge because one wants to be delighted in the clear-minded times and try to avoid those times when you just want to get away from it all and you feel like you're suffering and go to sleep.

[41:20]

And so I wonder, and you mentioned the word accept, I think, in those times. And I wonder if there's a similar word allow. Yeah, I think that's a better word. And so if to allow that, does that mean, what is the practice then? So is the practice to then go to sleep? Or what is the practice? I don't have a prescription. You know, certainly there's circumstances that I've experienced in the face of, really in the face of depression, where every gravitational force is trying to literally or figuratively pull me into bed and pull the covers over my head, right? And what I've learned through experience is to be kind to myself and also to push myself a little harder because I know that it will be the relational option is the one that's going to move me into the next moment.

[42:50]

you know, just hiding out, and it can be really pathologically hiding out, is not going to serve me very well. But I allow, it's like you allow, so this is the difference between, and I've talked about this a lot, being pushed or pulled around by your karma or living by vow. Living by vow is not like beating yourself up or forcing you to do something. It's just remembering what my vow is. If my vow is not to turn away from whatever I'm feeling, then I may decide to get out of bed, get dressed, and go outside. But I don't have an instruction book for this. But allow is a better word than accept. THE ONE THING I STRUGGLE WITH A LITTLE BIT IS JUST THE IDEA OF FOLLOWING FEELINGS.

[43:58]

I WONDER IF THAT'S PROBLEMATIC? DID I SAY FOLLOWING FEELINGS? NO, YOU DIDN'T SAY THAT. BUT I THINK I WONDER, SO IT'S JUST WHAT COMES UP FOR ME WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THIS. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE WORD ALLOW, Sometimes I imagine following feelings, and I'm wondering if that's problematic. It might be. But what I'm talking about is allowing myself to have the feeling, which is different than acting on the feeling. Okay. This is the distinction between to get angry or to feel hurt. is there's nothing more abnormal about that that's that's just human activity uh and then the question is do you want to get pushed into something reactive uh in relation to acting on that feeling or do you have do i have a vow to return to that can help me in this difficult moment say oh

[45:16]

I'm having this feeling how, in accord with the Dharma, how would I want to respond? Respond, not react. That's our life's work. Thank you. Thank you for the good question. Where do you live? I live in Berkeley. Have we met before? We have a while ago. It was a long time ago. Good. Well, thank you for being here. Thank you. Okay, next up we have Helen. Oh, hi, I had a question, but I think you just answered it. You can move on to the next person. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Okay, then next we have Stephanie. Stephanie, yes. Well, here she comes. Alan. Stephanie. I wanted to thank you so much for your talk.

[46:18]

Thank you. Working with people as I do during the pandemic, our practice of impermanence and helping or supporting my clients in really sitting with the fact that this will not always be the way it is, is really helpful. I also appreciate how authentic you are in sharing your feelings and thoughts about yourself. It really inspires others, including me, to do the same. So thank you so much. Thank you, Stephanie. Thank you for doing that work. You know, it's really important. All those who can support others are just really precious in this moment. Thank you, Hosan. I appreciate that. Okay, next we have Jeanette or Janae.

[47:18]

I'm sorry if I got it wrong. That's okay. Thank you. Just so I don't make the same mistake next week. It is Janae. Thank you. Janae. Thank you. So are you hearing me because the sound is coming and going from you? No, it's fine. Okay. Okay, thank you. I can't see. Oh, there you are. Thank you so much. Two things, Hozan Sensei. Relating to what Sam just brought up about following your feelings, you had said earlier that you're always asking yourself, where am I? Did I get that right? Okay. I don't get everything that's being said. So my question is, when you're asking that, are you investigating what you're feeling, or is that part of it, or is it something larger?

[48:31]

I have two questions. That's the first one. Okay. Well, let me give you an instruction that... maybe it's a simplistic response. It's a practice that certainly Sojourn has given me and many people. And I will say, you should always know where your feet are. So where am I is a very literal question. Got it? Okay. I mean, after I'm saying that right now, I realize, oh, my feet are kind of scrunched up behind me. And it's like, oh, wait. Val, put them flat on the ground so that my energy and weight is balanced. And so we're always, this is just what we're doing in Zazen. We're constantly readjusting our posture to have ourselves in alignment.

[49:39]

And so... That's where I start. And then it moves from there. It moves from the physical, just like the five skandhas, through all of the mental, all of the states of mind. So that's what I would say to that. Okay. Good. Thank you. The other part is when you spoke earlier of... person saying this is my truth and that you would kind of flinch because that inferred that that truth was you know rigid and not malleable or open to change but could you would it be valid to say in the moment in a very conditional way to say something like that meaning Where I am this moment, this is how things appear to me or feel to me.

[50:46]

But with that flexibility of knowing that it will change or allowing it to change or to be affected by what you're getting back from the other. Yeah, I think I failed to contextualize that properly. And the context that comes from my experience is that often when that's said, what it's saying is, I really don't care what you think. This is the way it is. This is my truth. And so, but I think from what you're saying and what Sean was saying, yes, it's true. There's a broader context than that. It doesn't have to be this, doesn't need to have an aspect of aggression or assertiveness to it necessarily.

[51:48]

And I need to listen to it too. So thank you for that correction. Thank you, Sensei. Okay, Hozan, just a time check. We have four more questions for you. Yeah, let's just take those and then close, okay? Okay. So, Kika, can you please unmute yourself? Thank you. Thank you, Hozan. You talked about openness. This kind of relates to Sam's question or possibly Helen's question. Openness is such an important part of our practice, my practice, and closedness is always looming. Sojin trains us to look at the opposite side. So what's the most important aspect of openness, and how do we hold openness and closeness at the same time?

[52:55]

How do we hold it when we see that we're closed, if we see that we're closed? You know what, the image that comes to mind immediately when you said that, I thought of a clam. There's sometimes when the clam needs to be open and there may be sometimes when the clam needs to be closed. It will never stay closed. So even if you feel, when I feel the instinctive closing or backing away, I try to recognize that I'm doing it and I don't force myself to open. If I can, I would say, you know, I need to step back and reflect on this, think about this, collect myself and I'll get back to you.

[54:00]

So if I close, I know I'm not going to stay closed. And if I'm open, I have no idealization that I'm always going to be open. So it sounds like acceptance, some kind of deep acceptance of whatever state you might be passing through or might be passing through you. Yes, and I really like Sam's word, allow. Or include, which Suzuki Roshi talks about a lot. And inclusiveness is actually Thich Nhat Hanh's, his translation or interpretation of the fourth Brahma Vihara, Upeka, which we translate usually as equanimity. He translates it as inclusiveness.

[55:06]

I think that's fantastic. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Equanimity as inclusivity and including everything. And it just reminds me just, you know, that allowance is being gentle with ourselves and accepting these parts of ourselves that are hard for us to accept. So thank you. Thank you. There's two comments and a question in the chat box. First, Deb Self said, the tree isn't the center of the universe. And Ross Blum said, when Suzuki was asked the question of whether a fallen tree makes a sound in the forest if no one is there to hear it, he said, it doesn't matter. And then... Finally, from the chat box... I want to just respond quickly to Deb.

[56:10]

Yes, you are completely right. The tree is its own being. And the tree is the center of the universe too. It's only from our anthropocentric perspective that we think that it's human consciousness that is the only kind of consciousness. That is not the case. Thank you for correcting my misspeaking. Okay, and Heiko has a question. Could you compare or contrast original face with total dynamic working? Not off the top of my head. Let's come back to that, Heiko. I have to think about that. Okay, next, either Rondi or Charlie has a question. It's Charlie. Thank you, Hosuh, and terrific talk.

[57:13]

When you talked about Arecibo and just prior to that, the collapse of BCC, I thought about maintenance and how important maintenance is. Arecibo collapsed because one cable broke in the Navy on aircraft carriers and other ships Wire ropes are replaced on a regular basis and there are logs kept on every wire and when they should be replaced so without maintenance we endanger ourselves by bad habits. And the bad habit that might collapse this incentive, of course, are the three poisons.

[58:16]

So I just wanted to make that connection and see what you had to say. I think you're completely right. And the maintenance exists on a mental level. And also, let's not forget Ross and Rob Lyons, and all the other people who are constantly doing these little unseen tasks of maintenance and maintaining our digital practice. All this is part of the total dynamic working of Berkeley Zen Center. It's great, and it's necessary. So thank you. Okay. Finally, we have a question from Joel. Hi, Hosan. Thanks for a lovely talk. Really beautiful. Just a quick comment and your reaction.

[59:18]

When you said total dynamic working is the whole works, I was struck because I have this expression which I've used all the time. that we try to be one with the whole mess, kind of pointing out to the swirling and confusion. So I just wondered what your reaction might be to that, because it was something that I've said a lot to people, that we try to be one with the whole mess. Does that make sense? Stop crying. You cannot be other than one with the wholeness. Okay, great. Okay, thank you. That's terrific. Thanks, man. You can be deluded. You may be deluded that you're not one with the wholeness. I'm sorry. You are. Oh, I'm stuck with it.

[60:19]

Okay. Thank you all. And, you know, have a good weekend and a good day. And we close with the four vows. Is that correct? Yes.

[60:30]

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