Me. Before we start. Does anyone have any questions. Last time. What we've studied so far. We don't have to do archaeology. I just wanted to see if there was something in your mind. Because to get through this, we have to really get through it. I just wanted to know if there was something in your mind. You know, this line on page six, firewood turns into ash and does not turn into firewood again. Yes. I don't agree. No, firewood does not turn into ash.

[01:03]

And there's no such thing as firewood and there's no such thing as ash. That too, but that's not the only thing. Directly, that's a form of attachment to emptiness. But once you get to the conventional, when we say firewood turns into ash and does not turn into firewood again, that's not really true. when forest fires happen, the ash is nurturing the earth. And that again appears as firewood. Yes. Conventionally, that's so. But that's not what Doge is talking about. He's not talking about how... He understands that everything in the universe nourishes everything else. He understands that. But what he's talking about is the position of each dharma in its momentary existence.

[02:06]

That's his point. So that's what he's talking about. He understands how elements are nourished when they break down. how everything becomes fertilized or something. But he's talking about the absolute position of each thing, each element, each dharma. And analogies only go so far. I guess I don't know what that means, the absolute. The position, the dharma position of each dharma. The position of momentariness and the relative moment and the absolute moment.

[03:19]

That's okay, you don't have to understand it. Just say, keep your mind open. Surgeon, if you don't finish this evening, will you continue during Susheen? If we don't finish, we'll continue during the talk and lecture in Susheen. Could you give an example of what you're talking about? Yeah. If I don't finish. Yes. Well, you one minute ago is not the same you as now. Now, of course, that's what he's talking about. That's the example. But I need to go on. Is it a position in time or space? Time and space. Time and space.

[04:26]

So Dogon talks about being is time and time is being. So each dharma is in its own dharma position on each moment. But it doesn't return or it doesn't go someplace. It's only there and then it's not there. So, although conventionally one thing, everything is conditioned, he's talking about the non-conditioned aspect of conditioned things. The unconditioned aspect of conditioned dharmas. You have to understand it. So Zen, I'm familiar with, is not based on some kind of technical thinking. Well, I just gave you an example. Oh, that I'm not the same person as I was even as I started this sentence.

[05:39]

Yeah. But where is that person now? Sitting on a cushion, talking to you. All right. That's a good example. So, now, I'm going to read this section. Gaining enlightenment is like the moon reflecting in the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water disturbed. Gaining enlightenment is like the moon reflecting in the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water disturbed. Although its light is extensive and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch across.

[06:41]

The whole moon and the whole sky are reflected in a dewdrop on the grass in one drop of water. Enlightenment does not disturb the person, A person does not hinder enlightenment just as a dew drop does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. As for the duration of the reflection, you should examine the water's vastness or smallness, and you should discern the brightness or dimness of the heavenly moon. So as we know, is a metaphor for enlightenment. So here, moon and water. Water is kind of like you, the person. And the moon reflected in the water.

[07:42]

So moon reflecting in the waters. Moon and water are like two things. In the previous section he says it's not like the moon reflected in the water. But these are simply two ways of looking at the same thing. It's not a contradiction. When he says it's not There's only one thing. There's no reflection. There's no echo. In zazen, the point in zazen is to be one with the activity. To be one with means That's non-discrimination.

[08:58]

Discriminating divides. When there's discrimination, then there's division. So non-discrimination means non-division. When there's pain, it's simply just sensation. As soon as you say, I don't like it, or I do like it, or some preference, then there's discrimination. And when there's discrimination, there's separation. So the moon is not like the moon reflected. It's simply oneness. Now he's talking about the moon reflected in the water. In order to bring out a certain point, is like the moon reflecting in the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water disturbed.

[10:01]

The moon does not get wet and the water is not disturbed. This is also a oneness of duality. But the moon also is like our basic nature, true nature. And if you think of water and waves, that's basically the simile that's used to express this kind of understanding. Water is like basic nature and waves are the expression of the water. Each wave has its own character, and there's this wave and that wave, but actually each wave is simply an expression of wind on the water.

[11:09]

And then when the wave moves, the water goes down. So actually, waves don't go anywhere. But the energy is moving. Energy seems to be moving. And the waves go up and down. But it looks like they're moving. The water has some movement forward, but basically it's an energy drive. And as the water progresses, it gives the feeling that there is motion of the wave, of the water. But if you really look at it, and if you've ever been out rid of the waves, you realize the waves go up and down, and then you look back and the water's going down. So there is a forward motion, but it's not necessarily the same piece of water that's moving. So then he says,

[12:17]

even in a puddle an inch across. So moons or enlightenment is reflected in all the individual pieces. So he's using light and water, or he could be using waves and water. But light is enlightenment. how light is expressed is called enlightenment. So, when enlightenment is expressed, there's nothing disturbed. In other words, we think, we have this feeling that when we have enlightenment, an enlightenment experience, we're going to change. It's going to make a big effect and we will be different. I remember Suzuki Roshi talking about He said, when you get enlightened, even when you walk past an ice cream store, your mouth will salivate.

[13:31]

And you will want to go and get an ice cream cone. But you're still the same person. Enlightenment doesn't change you into something else. It simply is your openness to allow light to be expressed. So even though enlightenment, its moonlight, is extensive and great, it's reflected in each particle. So each particle has its element of enlightenment, if you want to speak that way. So this is a very famous statement, the whole moon and the whole sky are reflected in a dew drop in the grass in one drop of water.

[14:44]

Enlightenment does not disturb the person just as the moon does not disturb the water. So enlightenment and the person are not two things. There is something called acquired enlightenment and something called intrinsic enlightenment. Dogen is talking about intrinsic enlightenment. Sometimes in Buddhism people talk about acquired enlightenment. But that acquired enlightenment can only be intrinsic enlightenment. Because how can you get something? You can't get an enlightenment. Enlightenment can only be stimulated through practice.

[15:51]

So in another sense, he's talking about practice as enlightenment. There is intrinsic enlightenment and stages of enlightenment. Now this is very interesting because once there is enlightenment, if it's truly enlightenment, even though it's a little enlightenment, it's true enlightenment. But there are depths of enlightenment. we say Shakyamuni Buddha is only halfway there, which is kind of a way of speaking. Nobody knows whether he's halfway there or when nine tenths of a way there. So there's always further depths of enlightenment, but the enlightenment itself does not change.

[16:58]

Master Mulan says to his students, each person, each one of you has your own light. But when you go to reach for it, it's dark and dim. For Dogen, practice stimulates enlightenment. Enlightenment encourages practice. So it's like, that's how the wheel turns. And practice stimulates enlightenment. And enlightenment encourages practice, turns to practice.

[18:02]

But we don't always realize it. So there's enlightenment and there's realization. Enlightenment is, but it doesn't come forth. It's not necessarily realized. So we say, is so-and-so enlightened? Well, maybe. But so-and-so is not realized. So we may have a dollar in our pocket, but we don't realize it. And the Lotus Sutra talks about this a lot. Or the drunken man whose friend sews a jewel into his robe, but he doesn't know it's there.

[19:12]

So he goes, you know, has all kinds of adventures without realizing that he has this jewel sewed into the hem of his robe. Even though he has this thing, he doesn't realize it. So there's a difference, not a real difference, but a difference in understanding. So one thinks a child of a wealthy person, a wealthy parent. And of course, God is the parent.

[20:13]

But if we didn't have intrinsic enlightenment, there's no way we could get it. Because it's not something to get, it's something that we already have. And there are arguments by scholars about acquired enlightenment and intrinsic enlightenment. Some scholars don't believe that there is such a thing as intrinsic enlightenment and that the Mahayana just kind of made this up. But I'm glad they made it up. Who cares about the truth? Jake? So it's not the enlightenment that is level, but it's going to be a realization that is level. It's a realization that one realizes something, right? So, oh, I get it. Or, I really get it. I really get it, yeah.

[21:17]

So that's why, what's emphasized In Soto Zen, in its true sense, is not to worry so much about enlightenment, but to put the emphasis on practice. Because if you simply try to get enlightenment, then you're skipping something in order to get the prize. But you just have to do the work. But it's hard for people to do the work. They just want to get the thing. But they can't get the thing without doing the work. So we can have some good idea about it, but it's not the same.

[22:17]

Because within the work is where enlightenment is generated, or where it's stimulated. You can't have the thing without doing the work. So when there is practice, enlightenment is there. is simply maybe finding your true home. Finding your true home is where light issues forth, where enlightenment issues forth. As Master Aham Jara says in his practice instruction,

[23:22]

where light issues forth. That's the best statement about enlightenment I ever heard. It's not like you know something special. It's that you allow your nature to freely shine forth. Yes? Is it possible that realization is almost detrimental because you can become self-conscious and then become involved with yourself. Well, realization is for two kinds of self-consciousness. One kind of self-consciousness is where you feel that you have a self which is over and against all the dharma, which is called separation. The other sense of self-consciousness is where there is no self, no special self, where everything, the whole universe, is yourself.

[24:55]

That's being conscious that the whole universe is yourself. That's true self-consciousness. The other is limited self-consciousness. I'm thinking what it would be statistical. Yeah, I know you do. But I just wanted... I understand. That's my way of talking about that. So, if one becomes self-conscious in that way, it's not true. Consciousness is consciousness of true self, not just consciousness of ego-self. Sojin's a conversation about acquired and intrinsic enlightenment.

[26:09]

reminds me a little bit of a conversation we had in this class a couple of years ago about acquired and intrinsic faith. And I wonder if you see a relationship between the two and if you could comment on them. I'm not sure which two you mean. Acquired and intrinsic faith. And acquired and intrinsic enlightenment. Well, acquired, you know, basically means you're getting something. You're doing... you're trying to get something that's outside of yourself. So, I don't know how you can get something outside of yourself. If there is something outside of yourself, then it doesn't belong to you. So you can only have what really belongs to you. You should shake the tree and whatever falls off is not yours. But there's another way of talking about acquired and intrinsic, but it's not exactly acquired.

[27:18]

It's more like stages. So sometimes people talk about acquired as finding enlightenment through stages. In other words, you study this, then you study that, and then you go through various... which is school. It's like school. And at the end, you have enlightenment. That's like acquired enlightenment. But in a non-dualistic way, although intrinsic enlightenment is basic, it doesn't mean that you should totally eliminate stages. Roshi, in his Flowers Fall, where he talks about... The Rinzai school talks about stages. You know, you study this koan, and this koan, and this koan, 200, 300 koan, past drills koan, and so it goes in, it's more like, just jump in the water and start swimming.

[28:26]

It's all at once. And there are teachers who are inherent to one side or the other. There are a lot of Soto's teachers who don't talk about step ladder. Suzuki Roshi actually was one of those people. He said, I used to think about step ladder Zen, but then I let go of that because I don't think our practice is step ladder Zen. But actually, We do go through stages. But we don't go through stages... We know that there's always deeper and deeper depths to realization. So we can call those stages. But they're not staged stages. They just happen to be the stages that we go through.

[29:27]

They're not planned out. So yes, we do go through stages. So, you look back and you see the stages you've gone through, rather than looking forward to see the stages that you're going to go through. So, sometimes that is a little amorphous. It's kind of a lot amorphous. And, you know, there's always the temptation to make it amorphous. There's always that temptation. and have a curriculum, because that gives it order and so forth. To some extent, that's OK. The thing that I think that keeps our practice in order is the schedule and the formality.

[30:32]

The formal practice is what keeps our practice together, not the stages of learning. in which the beginner and the old-timer are in exactly the same place. You can walk into Zen Dojo the first day and you don't have to know anything, very little, more than everybody else. This is the thing about our practice. You don't have to know anything in order to participate. You can just dive right in. And that's the way we introduce practice to people. We don't say, well, as soon as you study this and you study that, then you can start doing this next. You just, okay, right away, sit 40 minutes or an hour. It's always been that way.

[31:35]

And that's fortunate or unfortunate. There are other practices that people can participate in, which are practice of stages, and most people do that. But this practice is, you have the opportunity to practice thoroughly the moment you enter. That's why we really appreciate the practice of beginners. We can then naively step in. encouraging to everybody. So the person who begins and the person who has practiced a long time, they have the same practice, but the depth of the drop, as he says here.

[32:37]

I didn't get to that yet. The height of the moon. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. It means that the old practitioners have a depth of practice that the new person doesn't, even though it's the same So he says, a person does not hinder enlightenment just as the dew drop does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. As for the duration of the reflection, you should examine the water's vastness or smallness and you should discern the brightness or dimness of the heavenly moon. So, in other words, It's not a matter of quantity, it's a matter of quality. So the quality of a long-time practitioner who has gone through stages of practice, many stages of practice, has a maturity.

[33:48]

And the enlightenment has a maturity. The realization has a maturity. But the practice is the same. I remember hearing people talking about advanced practice. Practitioners of advanced practice. We don't have any advanced practice. We just have practice. Advanced practice is called, the end of practice is called beginner's mind. and no gaining idea. Those are the two things. Beginner's mind is the end of practice. And no gaining idea is the actualization of practice.

[34:50]

You simply do the practice without expecting anything or adding something. So adding something, you're trying to get an enlightenment on top of your head. Put an enlightenment So it's all about how you practice. People used to say that Suzuki Roshi never, you know, he didn't talk about enlightenment, so he must not have been enlightened. People talk like that. But he did talk, if you actually read his words, he talked about enlightenment all the time. But he talked about it in the simplest way. When you do something wholeheartedly, without ego, without self-centeredness, enlightenment is there. But we're always thinking about it as some big thing off in the distance, or some huge kind of unreachable, you know,

[36:03]

flashes, as a Guishan, Mr. Guishan, Chinese Guishan said, it's like walking in a fog and your clothes get wet unawares. It's like after you've been practicing for some time, you realize, yeah, something's changed, been changed for some time, but I only realize it now. So in a way it's kind of gradual and sudden. People talk about sudden enlightenment and gradual enlightenment. And they quote the Sixth Ancestor's Platform Sutra saying Zen is sudden enlightenment. Well he says some people will realize sudden

[37:12]

But sudden enlightenment comes through gradual practice. Gradual practice is the basis of sudden enlightenment. But people like to put things in it. They like to discriminate. It's so hard not to discriminate. It's almost impossible. But discrimination is important. Discrimination, rightful discrimination, which is based on non-discrimination, is enlightenment. So what is non-discrimination? The discrimination of non-discrimination. It's discriminating without being self-centered. without being egotistical.

[38:22]

Because we have to make a choice all the time. Every moment we make a choice. Should I raise my hand or should I keep it down? That's a choice. We're choosing something all the time. So how do you do that? You're discriminating all the time. Either I raise my hand or I lower it. That's a discrimination. That's choice. Thinking is discriminating. Just thinking is discriminating. Not to mention choosing. So how do we choose? How do we discriminate? So when we say non-discrimination, people think, well, I shouldn't discriminate. But that's not possible. It's like when we say you shouldn't have desire, It's impossible to not have desire, otherwise you'd be a dishrag.

[39:23]

So, what do you do with desire? That's the point. What do you do with discrimination? Is it alright for Kosher to not even think about enlightenment? Well, it's not kosher, but... Is it necessary to think about it? Yeah. We should have the thought of enlightenment. We should have a thought of enlightenment? Well, you know, the thought of enlightenment. In other words, there is enlightenment. We should have that thought. That practice, you know, is not a means to enlightenment. toward enlightenment, but a practice of enlightenment. And then forget it. Thank you.

[40:27]

It seems to complicate things. If you say there's no enlightenment, I don't have to think about it. You don't have to think about enlightenment. You should think enlightenment. About is a discrimination. We don't think about Zazen. We think the thought of Zazen. When you sit down, you don't think about Zazen. This is what I keep saying. When you sit down, give yourself Zazen instruction. What do I think about in Zazen? That's what people ask. Well, what do I think about in Zazen? My mind is just thinking about all kinds of things. This and that and the other thing. Well, think the thought of enlightenment. But don't call it enlightenment. Just be one with Zazen. Give yourself Zazen instruction the whole time. What do you do in Zazen? You give yourself Zazen instruction moment to moment, throughout the whole period.

[41:31]

That's all you have to do. That's being one with realization, with enlightenment. But you don't necessarily have to be one. Because you're thinking about, you want something else. This isn't the problem. I want something else. I'm just doing this. I know people who have been sitting for 20 years. They say, I just sit there and I'm bored. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just sitting there and nothing's happening. And so they can be missing what's not happening. Missing what's happening, which is just sitting. That's what's so difficult, is just sitting. This is called pure practice, which means non-discriminating. Pure is not the opposite of impure. It's not like there's something pure and something impure. Pure practice is non-discriminating, just sitting, and just being

[42:39]

So this is like the moon. It's not like the moon reflected in the water. That's Satsang. It's just one thing. There's no opposite. If there's a feeling, which you usually call pain, and you don't say, I wish it was some other feeling that I like better, then you're okay. If you say, I wish it was some feeling that I like better, that's discrimination. It's no longer one with what's happening. That's called suffering. The beginning of suffering. When we don't want aversion and grasping. Aversion and grasping. Those are the two things that we're making our choices about all the time. are discriminating choices about aversion and grasping. Don't want and want. Don't want and want. And we have to make those choices all the time.

[43:42]

That's our life. But how do you do that in a truly non-discriminating way? How do you discriminate on the basis of non-discrimination? That's what you learn is nothing. Zazen is the teacher. You can suffer or you can not suffer. It's just a matter of discrimination or non-discrimination. Simply a matter of non-discrimination. But then we make choices. But the choices are not based on ego. That's the difference. That's called freedom. But freedom, what does freedom mean? Freedom means freedom from ourself. Freedom from self-clinging.

[44:43]

That's what we say in the meal chat. The natural order of mind. Freedom, may we all be free from self-clinging. That's the potent statement. How do we be free from self-clinging? And when we sit sadhana, we realize how self-clinging we are. That's what it teaches us. Boy, I'm really self-clinging. So we get the message, whether we realize it or not. So it takes a long time. We all do the same practice, but it takes time to go through the stages of realization. where we can actually let go and have our freedom. But we usually think that freedom means freedom to do whatever we want.

[45:44]

That's one kind of freedom. But the freedom that we talk about in the Dharma is freedom from ourself. Freedom from self-cleaning, which is what causes our suffering. It's just the first noble truth. and the second, and the third, and the fourth. Sometimes, like recently, there's a tremendous amount of self clinging, and I don't feel like I have a choice about it. So when you're really in the middle of, you see it, and then you don't, you know, like how do you, how can you come to, to a peaceful place within that. What do you mean, in your daily life? I guess so. Because it's very painful.

[46:48]

What I experience sometimes is this incredible sense of separation from everything. And I'm so aware of it. I feel completely powerless to change it, and then there's the judgment on top of it, which is maybe where I can do the work, but that's what I'm asking. Well, the judgment is the worst part, because that's real discrimination. Because the judgment is about a self. So judgment brings up a self. And we're continually creating this self. So when the self is opened, the more closed the self is, the more we suffer. The more open the self is, the less suffering there is. So opening is like letting go of self-queening.

[47:51]

So, you know, when I was beginning to practice, it was just sit still and don't move. And there's no place to go. You can't move and you can't stay there. Then you come to a place where you can't move and you can't stay. And that's the place where you open up. Because the only thing you can do is open up. And so it's not like you decide something, right? That's why When you keep trying to figure it out, and figure it out, and figure it out, it doesn't work. No matter how you try to figure it out, it doesn't work. The only thing that works is opening up. Because you can't stay there, and you can't go, and you can't move. And you're forced to open up. You're just forced to open up. And that's where you feel your freedom. That's where you what? Feel your freedom. You can't figure it out.

[49:00]

You can just go over and over. How am I going to get out of this? How am I going to change this? None of that works. Because you have to become one with whatever is there. And as soon as we try to figure out some way to escape, it just makes it worse. There's no escape. The only escape is to be one with whatever the problem is. So let's say on a practical level, let's say you're going through your daily life, when you feel that strong sense of separateness, you try to feel it physically, that's part of it, right? And then you just do your best to refocus your attention on something else. one with that, whatever that is. This is what's there. You don't try to avoid it or evade it.

[50:05]

This is the problem. And this is what's there. And this is being one with that problem. Totally open to that problem. We change what we can change. What you can't have is that saying, you know, give me the whatever it is to be with what's there. So that is how we practice all the time, is to be one with whatever is there. You don't need to escape because everything is going to change anyway. If you're one with what's there, then the next moment will have its basis. Because we proceed, so to speak, from one moment to the next.

[51:12]

And that procedure is based on... the next procedure is based on what happens this time. This moment conditions the next moment, which our path, what we do now, how we handle this moment is what determines how we're going to handle the next moment. So that's why it's really important to face whatever problem is there right now. And the more we evade our problem, the more we get stuck. Because we don't have a firm basis for how to proceed. When we sit in Zazen, we let go of everything.

[52:16]

And when we get up, you can go anywhere you want. Because you're totally open and free. Except that we do have our habits, right? So our habits quickly coalesce and we follow them. But you have the opportunity to not follow them. It's an interval of not being conditioned by our habits. And then you start again as a new person. We're totally open and unconditioned. And then what do I do now? How do I begin this active life now?

[53:22]

So every day it's a new day, it's a new life. Lifetime of one day at a time. Even though we do have continuities in various ways. This is what Dogen is talking about. So practice is always coming back to zero, and extending from zero, and coming back to zero, and extending from zero. It's called back and forth, back and forth, even though it's not really back and forth. When your daily life and Zazen is one thing, then you know that your practice has a good basis. So you always keep coming back to zero, and then proceeding from zero. And then you have the possibility of not being caught by things so much.

[54:30]

So when we sit Sachine, it's like having a long mental and internally physical bath So we're going to have 10 more minutes before we go. How long? 20. We can extend your legs for five minutes. One minute. One minute. You don't even have to stand up if you don't want to.

[55:39]

I do want to talk about the next section. Now, Doge says, when the truth does not fill our body and mind, we think that we have enough. When the truth fills our body and mind, we realize that something is missing. For example, when we view the four directions from a boat on the ocean, where no land is in sight, we see only a circle and nothing else. No other aspects are apparent. However, this ocean is neither round nor square, and its qualities are infinite in variety.

[56:40]

It is like a palace. It is like a jewel. It just seems circular as far as our eyes can reach at the time. The 10,000 dharmas are likewise like this. Although ordinary life and enlightened life assume many aspects, we only recognize and understand through practice what the penetrating power of our vision can reach. In order to appreciate the 10,000 dharmas, We should know that, although they may look round or square, the other qualities of oceans and mountains are infinite in variety. Furthermore, other universes lie in all quarters. It is so not only around ourselves but also right here in a single drop of water. I want to reiterate again what this brings up. Even though we don't fully understand, we can still practice. Even though the ocean is wide and deep, we can still swim and play in it.

[57:48]

So when the truth does not fill our body and mind, we think that we have enough. We may think that we have enough, I would say. A little qualification there. When the truth fills our body and mind, we can realize that something is missing. So, I think what Dogen seems to be saying is that when we think that we've got it, we don't. And when we realize that we don't have it, that's enlightenment. Enlightenment is the realization of delusion. If you realize your delusion, it's enlightenment that realizes that. So as I always say, if you don't realize your delusion, if you think, I'm not deluded, you are deluded. That is real delusion. I'm not crazy. Yes, you are.

[58:55]

We're all kind of crazy. I think we have to realize that we're all kind of crazy, you know. If we don't realize it, it's very hard to accept each other. We have to accept each other as we are. Even the person who gives you the most problem, you have to accept that person because you realize that we're all, you know, we all have something. We're all kind of, you know, off-eccentric. Eccentric means off-center, off-balance. And concentric is to be in the center. So our practice is to make an effort to be concentric, to find our center and stay in our center. Centering is stillness.

[59:57]

But we can't stay there. We can stay there only if we also wobble. Confucius talks about the unwavering, unwavering pivot. The stable place. So, you know, Zazen is that stable place. The unwavering pivot. The upright. And then there's the inclined. So the inclined is where motion starts. As soon as we lean over, motion starts. So then things start going around in a circle. And if the center holds, as they say in the army, if the center holds, then there can be a big swing. But when the center loses its balance, then it starts wobbling, and that's eccentricity.

[61:02]

Not centered properly. And so we use the simile of a top. In Japan, they use the simile of a top. And then you throw the top, and the top looks like it's standing still. But it's got this dynamic, total dynamic, balanced energy. It just looks like it's standing still. And as a matter of fact, the children in Japan say it disappears. But when you hit it, it goes careening across the floor because of its energy. And this is Zazen. Zazen is to disappear, to have that balance centered. I think I'm talking about us being crazy, right?

[62:26]

A little bit off center. I was trying to remember why I was talking about this, being off-center and eccentric and so forth. So we make this effort to be centered so that we're always in touch with our basic nature, which doesn't destroy us. Then he says, for example, when we view the four directions from a boat on the ocean, where no land is in sight, we see it only as a circle and nothing else, and no other aspects are apparent. So for a person in a boat, on the water, and no mountains around or anything, you just see... So people in that day, I'm sure Dogen realized that there was a circularity to the world, and that it wasn't just flat.

[63:27]

I'm sure he never thought it was flat. As a matter of fact, he denies any shape at all to the world. He said, it's what you see it, the world. The shape of the world is the way you see it, actually, because... However, the ocean is neither round nor square, and its qualities are infinite in variety. It is like a palace. It is like a jewel. It seems circular. as far as our eyes can reach at the time. But for a fish, it's like a palace, right? It's not even water. Fish doesn't think, I'm in the water. We call it the water. Fish is just in its element. And we're in our element. And we just call it the air or the sky. We live in the sky, actually. We think that the sky is up there. But actually, it's right here. Where's the end of the sky?

[64:31]

The top of my head is the end of the sky. But actually, it comes all the way down to the earth. So we're actually skywalkers. And it's like a jewel. Who is it a jewel for? It's a jewel for some kind of fish. It seems circular as far as our eyes can reach at the time. likewise like this, infinite in variety. Everything is what we make it. Every creature sees the environment in a different way, as to what its needs are. So the 10,000 Dharma's are like this. Although ordinary life and enlightened life assume many aspects, we only recognize and understand through practice what the penetrating power of our vision can reach.

[65:39]

So, I think he's saying through practice we can see, but it's still not enough. There's no way we can know because every creature is making up a story about what their environment is. So in order to appreciate the 10,000 dharmas, we should know that although they may look round or square, the other qualities of oceans and mountains are infinite in variety. Furthermore, other universes lie in all quarters. It is so not only around ourselves but also right here and in a single drop of water. So a single drop of water is equal to the huge, to the infinite sky. They're equal.

[66:44]

Why are they equal? A mouse is equal to an elephant. Why is that? Because of their virtue, not because of their value. value is comparative. When you compare things, then you see their difference. But when you don't compare, it's only equality. It's easy to see things in their comparative aspect, but to see the equality, there's enlightenment. We may think everything is equal, but we don't realize it. The only way to realize equality is to know our own basic nature. Because then we realize we all have the same, all creatures, all dharmas, have the same basic nature. And the mark of all dharmas is emptiness.

[67:52]

All dharmas in their own nature are marked All Dharma is a mark of emptiness. That's what a mark means. Characteristic. The characteristic of all things. Although each entity has its own special characteristic, it's only momentary, like firewood or ash. The mark of firewood is emptiness. The mark of ash is emptiness. Even though firewood may condition ash, ash is ash, firewood is firewood, but its true nature is emptiness. So that's why Nyasatani Roshi says, as Ron said last time, Nyasatani Roshi said that saying firewood is firewood and ash is ash is just to give you a cooking.

[69:01]

or something like that. Because this is what you tell people, you know, firewood is firewood, ash is ash, firewood is in its dharma position as firewood, ash is in its ash position as ash. And each one has its own history and future. They're not connected. Ash is the condition. Firewood is the condition for ash. They're not the same. But the true mark of both of them is emptiness. So this is equality. It's only equality because of difference. And the difference is their equality. That's not easy to wrap your mind around. Can I ask a question?

[70:05]

Yes, but it's almost time. It seems like when you say things like what we know or what we think, the minute we bring in conceptual thought, we lose it. The minute it becomes a thought and a mental formation of some sort, then it's no longer... Well, I'm not saying that... Well, we limit what it is we're talking about. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't think. We have to think. Thinking is where our thinking reads, so to speak. That's not the point. The point is... What's your point? Well, to know something, to not put... a circle around you, you have to kind of suspend some developing conceptual thought about it. You have to suspend naming it and describing it.

[71:09]

That's right. Because naming, you know, naming, you have to suspend naming. That's right. Because naming limits what a thing is. But we do that for convenience. So the trick is, yes, we use a name, but we don't believe in the name. Like Suzuki Roshi said, my name is Suzuki, but, you know, when people call me Suzuki, I feel funny about that, because I'm not Suzuki. It's not me. That's just a name, right? So, who is Suzuki? So we have to get beyond naming. But naming is important. You know, we could say one, two, three, four, five, anything. But namings, you know, it's interesting because naming, there are certain countries where you can only use a certain number of names, certain names.

[72:20]

Like in Scandinavian countries, sometimes you only use a certain list of names and anything else is not Acceptable. Accepted. But there are also places where you just name people according to what you like, you know, like America. But when somebody names somebody else something unusual, people say, oh, is that a name? You're not supposed to name somebody a flower. So naming is an interesting thing. The name, you know, we don't even think about the origin of a name. Somebody gives us a name, but we don't think about what is the origin of that. We may think about that, but it doesn't, it has no meaning. It's just a designation.

[73:22]

But a second name has meaning. So when we give you a Buddhist name, it has more meaning for you than your birth name. Because it's on a different level. You say, oh, that's an interesting name. But when we name something, we stop seeing it. You can stop. You don't necessarily stop seeing it, but it lends itself to not seeing it. Well, we just live it, you know. We stop there. So, if I say, hi, I don't know, you. It stimulates something. And if I say, who are you? Every time we meet. Who are you? Other than, oh, I know you.

[74:29]

I have to admit, even though I know you, I really don't know you. Sorry to say. But then, in a non-verbal way, I really do know you.

[74:46]

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